r/AutisticWithADHD • u/lydocia 🧠brain goes brr • Jan 30 '25
So, err, how do we feel about this? - "1-minute video game distinguishes autistic from neurotypical kids"
https://newatlas.com/adhd-autism/autism-motion-detection-diagnosis/55
u/januscanary Jan 30 '25
...or just embrace the double empathy problem and use our Audarâ„¢
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u/PeachPuzzleheaded109 Jan 30 '25
What’s double empathy? I’d love to hear a lived experience
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u/marigoldthundr Jan 30 '25
The Double Empathy problem (from scholar Damien Milton) states that autistics don’t lack empathy, but that autistics and non-autistics have issues understanding each other’s communication styles that leads to a lack of empathy on either side. Non-autistics have trouble initially empathizing with us, we have trouble initially empathizing with them. It’s a two-way miscommunication
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u/breaking_brave Jan 30 '25
The whole empathy debacle was one of the reasons I had convinced myself I wasn’t autistic. I feel empathy deeply, to the point of dysfunction at times. I did an empath/autism search and got the flood of confirmation I suspected was floating out there. Autistics lacking empathy is an outdated stereotype. It makes a lot of sense that the stereotype is a result of conflict between neurotypical and neurodivergent empathy styles.
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u/robdrimmie Jan 30 '25
Just wanted to note that Double Empathy is a different theory than the Empathizing vs Systemizing theory posited around 2009. The former asserts that autistic people are very empathetic and the fact that we do indeed experience both cognitive and emotional empathy is critical to it.
It suggests that there are difficulties when autistic people communicate that prevent both sides of the conversation from reaching an empathetic state with each other unless both parties work for it. Historically, autistic people have been forced to be the ones who are empathetic with allistic people but if those allistic people fucking tried a little bit - had some empathy for _us_ - the difficulties of communication are significantly reduced.
The latter, uncharitably but I don't hold much respect for the author, asserts that autistic people are robots.
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u/hacktheself because in purple i’m STUNNING! ✨ Jan 30 '25
Part of it is that my empathy is objectively obscenely high (TEQ: 61, EQ: 61).
I feel others’ pain more deeply than my own.
And I share that I feel others’ pain with stories because my direct painful experiences inform what and how I feel others’ pain.
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u/leeloolanding Jan 30 '25
it basically just means that they think we have no theory of mind & lack empathy for us, while claiming we lack empathy for them
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u/januscanary Jan 30 '25
ND people just naturally vibe well with other ND people. NT-NT vibe together well. An ND-NT interaction starts ok but within 60s NT has (sub)consciously determined 'that dude ain't right/like me' and the interaction is more likely to break down. An example to be recall times you infodumped and see if it was not only positively or negatively received, but what the other person did as their contribution. Did they infodump back? Did they have an exasperated facial expression and just push the interaction along?
TLDR; use ND people to spot other ND peeps
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u/Curious_Tough_9087 ✨ C-c-c-combo! Jan 31 '25
That look you get after 60s - soul crushing. Whatever I'm saying just tails off into a mumble. That's if you notice it after 60s and don't keep on going.
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u/januscanary Jan 31 '25
I have a really bad habit of picking up on it but carrying on anyway as Im like 'I'm fucking off soon anyway so stopping now or in a sec ain't gonna make a difference and stopping early takes too much effort' lol
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u/Femizzle Jan 30 '25
Personally I like anything that gets the ball rolling for diagnosis. Helping my husband get his diagnosis was life changing for me. Suddenly everything that never made sense made sense. If this program can help start that process for others quickly and easily then more power to it.
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u/Timely-Departure-904 Jan 30 '25
I mean, yeah. This. If this can genuinely diagnose within a minute, I'm all for it. There has got to be a better way than what we do now
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u/Femizzle Jan 30 '25
I am hopeful. How we do it now is vastly better then how they did it when I was a kid. I only got my adhd diagnosis because my mom told the doctor we were not leaving untill he did the test or called the cops.
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u/optimusdan Jan 30 '25
I like your mom
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u/Femizzle Jan 30 '25
Yeah. She was a hell cat. I just wish the "experts" of the time did not tell her the best thing to do was try to break me.
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u/ayebb_ Jan 30 '25
Less like it diagnoses, more like it indicates a good chance of 'tism. I'm for it, as long as we use it carefully and train the users appropriately.
Kind of like the meme-to-diagnosis pipeline - relating to a meme doesn't necessarily mean anything, but if you relate to all the ADHDmeme content then uh maybe there's something to that
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u/novafuquay Jan 30 '25
I read the study because obviously this doesn’t sit right and as per usual of these short stub articles, it’s pretty misleading of what the study actually shows.
The study simply shows that scores were similar for children with just ASD and with those having co-occurring ADHD along with their ASD. While ADHD no ASD were slightly higher and NT were slightly Higher than just ADHD.
This doesn’t specifically differentiate between ASD and adhd or actually prove anything.
Also the sample size was rather small. Additionally, gross motor imitation is one symptom many children with autism have difficulty with but is not even a diagnostic criteria per dsm v or ICD 11 so….
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u/SoftwareMaven Jan 31 '25
Did they do a formal assessment on the NT children before the experiment, or did they just assume if they don’t have an ADHD or autism diagnosis, then they are NT? I feel like that happens a lot in research, and it hides highly masking children under the NT category, skewing both the NT and the autistic numbers.
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u/lydocia 🧠brain goes brr Jan 30 '25
So it basically is just a "this person deviates from the norm in dancing" test?
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u/W6ATV WB-B2024152 my first VIN Jan 31 '25
Is that why I am so rip-roaring awful trying to do line-dancing with my RV club at their parties?
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u/Ralf_Steglenzer Jan 30 '25
It can help with preselection but 80% acuracy is not much. I think for Children with false negative result it could be much more struggle. On the other hand otnwould make things more easy for others.Â
I think, screw the cost, neural scans for all.
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u/lydocia 🧠brain goes brr Jan 30 '25
I feel the same. Like it's helpful for an indicator, I guess? But, like, talking to autistic people who go "hey I feel like you might be autistic" would also be 80% accurate. 80% is not enough to base a diagnosis on, but it's a good start to the ball rolling.
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u/ThrowWeirdQuestion Jan 30 '25
Are neural scans (I assume you mean fMRI or EEG?) more than 80% accurate? I know that at least for ADHD they aren’t, but I haven’t read much about using them for ASD screening.
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u/GrimBarkFootyTausand Jan 30 '25
If this actually works like they say it does, that's amazing IMO. Accuracy will likely only increase over time, and while it probably can't replace an actual conversation with a child it's most certainly a great tool. My only worry is, that it could become a 1 minute way to deny someone a diagnosis, because 'it's so accurate' when we all know that there will always be some that fall outside the norm, even when the norm is to not be the norm :D
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u/Impossible_Office281 ASD High Support Needs & ADHD Combined Type Jan 30 '25
makes sense. i played a lot of just dance as a kid. i can only dance when i’m copying someone else’s body movements.
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u/reedrick Jan 30 '25
Walks into my doctors office.. mom says, honey we need do a test… uptown funk starts playing. Jokes aside, this is great, diagnosis costs around $2500 and a large battery of exhausting tests now
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u/lydocia 🧠brain goes brr Jan 30 '25 edited Jan 31 '25
aaaaaaaaaah
this hits the hyperfocus
that Rain Man, that weird Joker
This one's for them 'tism girls
I'm with 'em girls, straight masterpieces
vibin', wilin', stimmin' it up in the streets
got noise-cancelling headphones
gotta diss myself I'm so weird
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u/W6ATV WB-B2024152 my first VIN Jan 31 '25
-Please- tell me what tune this goes to? (-:
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u/Five_Realms 🧬 maybe I'm born with it Jan 30 '25
I'm not sure i understand this. I might have to come back to it when I'm not sick and my brain is functioning better. i'm just wondering what about ADHDers with dyspraxia? like my middle child would have flagged as autistic and as far as we and they know, they are not. just ADHD with absolutely shit motor skills. am I missing something?
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u/ParentalUnit_31415 Jan 30 '25
Having more potential diagnostic tests and research can never be a bad thing. The accuracy at the moment is not great, but I'm sure that would improve with a larger sample, and no medical professional would accept it as the be-all and end all diagnostic test. What it could be is a way to speed up getting help to kids who need it.
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u/adaytimemoth Jan 30 '25
"Oh the machine determined you didn't have autism? Well enjoy struggling for the rest of your life because there's zero support here for you. "
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u/GoldDHD Jan 30 '25
I think it's amazing. Getting my kids diagnosed was expensive, heard to come by, and took a long time. I just wish it would be at an even younger age
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u/mighty_kaytor Jan 30 '25
To be perfectly honest, I wanna try it, but if it has anything to do with being body-stupid and bad at dancing I already know the results, haha.
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u/unanau Jan 30 '25
Well that explains why I was never great at dance even though I did it for 11 years😠Bad news for my love of the game Just Dance as well I guess lol.
Seems like an interesting tool though and it could save a lot of time and money. Especially in diagnosing auDHD when the traits overlap each other a lot and it can be hard to tell sometimes.
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u/W6ATV WB-B2024152 my first VIN Jan 31 '25
I see no problem with a short test such as this, but only as one of many potential tools to help with diagnosis and understanding of neurodiverse people. But, a "one-minute video-game answer" or any other "quick-and-easy" attempt or claim to diagnose or separate anyone seems like a terrible way to make any actual decision of anything, to me.
I say this all, having "failed" my ADHD assessment possibly based on doing "exceptionally well" on a (TOVA?) visual-reaction/distraction test that I took. After decades of ADHD-coping experience/practice (and playing video games), I saw that test as "a video game", so of course I tried my best to "win" it. (My doctor who watched me on a web cam as I "played" even asked me afterward, "Why did you wince at that one point?". Well, because I "missed" one step/click in the "game". Of course, I was disappointed in myself for doing that.)
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u/leeloolanding Jan 30 '25
No. Current diagnostics already miss so many people, there’s no way this is any more accurate than an autistic person.
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u/2eggs1stone Jan 30 '25
This is from 9 years ago when they were just beginning to work on identifying these traits and presenting their work. It's pretty clear that it's effective. It's true that it won't catch everyone, but this test is more about finding more autistic individuals sooner because you can test individuals cheaper and earlier. There's also another diagnostic test that I've seen that uses eye movements for children at 1. Current diagnostics miss so many individuals because there just isn't the capacity to test everyone. But a filter like this makes it so that more individuals are initially identified and then current diagnostics can then be used to confirm the suspected diagnosis. This doesn't prevent any of our current ways of detecting, for example primary doctor, or school teacher.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXM1WlwAzDk&list=LL&index=1Watch the video for yourself and you will understand why the test is so effective.
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u/ThrowWeirdQuestion Jan 30 '25 edited Jan 30 '25
Bad reporting. 80% is the true positive rate, i. e. sensitivity, not accuracy. The accuracy, according to the actual study for distinguishing between neurotypical and ASD children is 70%, so there are apparently lots of false positives.
Maybe this will become useful if they can improve accuracy, but those numbers are in line with the most basic questionnaire based screening tests, such as, for example, the ASRS for ADHD, which are much simpler to do.
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u/toxicophore Jan 30 '25
Oh look it's me at zumba. 🥲
Bur I'm for anything that gets the ball rolling.
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u/blinkandeljus Feb 04 '25
It would be interresting to know how many of the kids that was girls and if they scored higher than the boys. And I assume the NT kids were better at mimicing the dance moves?
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u/lndlml Jan 30 '25
I am not gonna believe it based on mere two researches based on ~187 participants. Perhaps I would take it more seriously if they had tested their theory at least on one million kids. I have both ASD and ADHD (combined type).. and I think it’s waaay more multifaceted than just imitation and in my opinion this 1 min imitation test is not gonna be a credible basis for correct diagnosis.
I was TERRIFIED of balls and would hide during ball games (especially dodge ball).. but I still managed to do some dancing classes and figure skating for half my childhood. There are many autistic and ADHD kids who are successful dancers, ballet dancers and figure skaters - some of whom are even olympians (eg Gracie Gold, Adam Rippon, Johnny Weir etc).
All autistic and ADHD kids are different.
1) individual variability - not all ADHD or ASD individuals exhibit the same motor / imitation challenges. So this approach risks oversimplifying the diagnostic process by focusing on a single characteristic.
2) contextual factors- children’s performance in imitation tasks vary based on mood, familiarity with the task, or external distractions, potentially affecting the accuracy of such methods.
3) overlap of traits - ADHD and ASD often share overlapping traits, and distinguishing them through motor imitation alone may not capture the full picture of an individual’s neurodivergence.
4) supplementary - tools like CAMI could be useful as part of a broader diagnostic framework, they should complement, not replace, thorough assessments by experienced clinicians.
5) potential biases- motor imitation might be influenced by cultural or educational backgrounds, meaning the results might not always accurately reflect neurodivergence.
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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '25
[deleted]