r/ChainsawMan 3d ago

Discussion Is there a devil potentially stronger that death ?

All the horsemen are derived from concepts that scare both humans and other devil's them being control famine war and death. But if devils are strong because of the fear they give off wouldn't a torture devil be stronger than death since its so bad that people prefer death over it

496 Upvotes

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u/StayInner2000 2d ago

The evolutionary purpose of fear is to avoid death, every single fears are fear of death if you think about it, every single one so no, nothing tops death

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u/Solstrum 2d ago

Counterpoint: Death is only one of the strongest because the concepts other than death at the end of life were eaten by Pochita.

If humans knew that there is a 100% chance of being reincarnated or whatever instead of death, concepts like Old Age, Pain, or Disease could be way stronger than just one of those options.

Even with those concepts removed, I think Pain Devil would be stronger if it exists.

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u/DaylightsStories 2d ago

I have the complete opposite thought. The other endings might have been better than death, which would make death so much scarier by comparison. I don't think the others could have been seen as comparable or worse than death because Pochita recently got walked like the dog he is by Yoru, who in turn couldn't do a thing to the Aging Devil, so I'm very doubtful of Pochita's ability to defeat a devil with ~1/5 of a primal devil's strength. To say nothing of how Death might be excessively strong even by primal fear standards.

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u/Solstrum 1d ago

We don't know if the current Pochita its at his best condition possible, maybe being inside Denji limits the powers he can use or he isn't even trying (we saw him goofing around a lot of the time).

We do know that it fought with the 4 Horseman and the Weapons Devils (including Gun and maybe Atomic Weapons, depending of the timeline) and during that battle he could eat parts of the War Devil, maybe fully other Devils (like Atomic Weapons) and we see that he didn't fully die since he was just wounded when he met Denji.

The gap between prime Pochita and Death shouldn't be wide enough for it to be one shot or the other Devils wouldn't have been needed to stop him.

IMO, Pochita maybe isn't technically a Primal Devil because he died before (the only requirement to be considered one) but he should be close to that, he one shot Hell Devil in his presentation (which should be a really strong one) and he is the Devil that Devils fear the most after all.

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u/DaylightsStories 1d ago

Hell Devil shouldn't be that strong because people don't live in fear of hell really. They're scared of devils but hell isn't a place you go(unless the Hell Devil puts you there).

And we have no idea what the fight between Pochita and the Horsemen+weapon devils looked or what order it happened in, only that Yoru claims she put him down several times before he managed to take a bite out of her. It's possible he that he fought them all at once, but there's no reason to assume so. I expect he went after them in an order that makes it easier, probably Nazi first, then WW2(which would be way less feared without Nazis), then Nuke(which would be way less feared if nobody had seen them used in WW2), then fought Yoru+weapon devils and bit her, and then the other three showed up in some unspecified order and put in some unspecified effort. I don't think the timeline adds up for Gun to have been present(Denji was born ~1980, Gun was born in 1984 and in custody the same day, Denji and Pochita met when Denji looked older than four years), and the "Weapon Devils" term to me implies only the ones who make hybrids. We also know now that Death is lazy enough that she might have been a handicap rather than a benefit.

We also know that Pochita, as far as we've seen, is a gnat to a primal devil. Aging one shot him several times during their encounter, and Aging was limited with what she could do because killing Pochita outright goes against the idea of getting eaten.

"The Devil that Devils Fear the Most" is probably not intended literally and is visibly wrong if it is. They're scared of what Pochita represents but not necessarily the man himself because he's not an invincible hazard. Just compare how many devils/fiends were willing to fight him with how the approaching Darkness Devil had strong devils and fiends asking to kill themselves rather than face what it might do to them.

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u/Solstrum 1d ago

Gun Devil wasn't born in 1984. He went to earth on that year. They are born in Hell and usually only go to Earth if killed (Falling devil is the only exception to that and is related to Death's powers), so, he had to be killed around that time, Pochita had literal bullet holes in his body when he met Denji and a Gun is a Weapon. It's not a stretch at all to think he participated in the fight and got folded.

We are explicitly told by Makima that Pochita disappeared at the height of the fight, so it makes sense they went after him in waves at first, but in the height implies that everyone that was available was fighting together him when he went into hiding.

Death, supposedly the strongest devil, thinks that Pochita + Yoru can actually kill her (something she seems to desire), so it makes more sense that the version of Pochita we are seeing is heavily nerfed than to think he isn't powerful enough.

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u/Puzzleheaded_Ad2726 1d ago

it makes more sense that the version of Pochita we are seeing is heavily nerfed than to think he isn't powerful enough.

Wasn't he strengthed by ge worldwide chaos caused by the chainsaw zombies? I simply don't think he has the means to kill a primal fear without eating them. And Yoru is a fly compared to primals, her strongest attack got disintegrated by Aging devil.

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u/Puzzleheaded_Ad2726 1d ago

The gap between prime Pochita and Death shouldn't be wide enough for it to be one shot or the other Devils wouldn't have been needed to stop him.

We don’t know, what death did in that fight. Who's to say she is not the reason he ended up in his nerfed state at the beginning of the serious. Death probably carried that fight. I disagree, Pochita is not a primal fear or on their level, he can fight them for awhile but he will eventually lose. Hell devil is fodder , I honestly don't understand why you're even bringing him up, say primal one shots hell devil too. The primals have all been holding back so far. I honestly believe people in this fanbase downplay primals heavily.

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u/Zohnannor 14h ago

If those endings are better why would anyone fear them?

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u/DaylightsStories 14h ago

Because they're still endings.

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u/Zohnannor 12h ago

hm yeah, that makes sense

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u/Transfiguredcosmos 2d ago

If people knew reincarnation existed, I doubt they'd be as afraid of old age or disease. They'd be more afraid of after death states. Which would include pain or suffering. If death never included suffering, or the things leading up to it and was instant, people would more readily accept it.

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u/SokoIsCool 2d ago

This is nitpicking, but I don’t think reincarnation was one of the concepts erased by Pochita. Reincarnation happens when you die, a result of death, so it is under the category of death. We can’t actually comprehend anything that happens at the end of your life other than death, so it’ll probably never be relevant to the story.

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u/Solstrum 1d ago

We will never know for sure, yeah, but there are some hints that can help with this:

  • Devils reside in Hell, not Purgatory or some other place with a new name, meaning that there is a strong possibility of Heaven or others realms where the dead go, existing.

  • Souls exist. When a Devil dies, it's born again in Hell with no knowledge of past lives, except for at least the Horseman, this can only be explained if something from the previous life remains or its transfered after death. This could be related to the ability to remember concepts eaten by Pochita.

This leads me to believe that in the chainsawman universe, death means that your souls get reborn in another realm without knowledge of its past lives.

I can think of two alternatives to that:

  • Reincarnation. You are reborn, in the same realm, with knowledge from previous lives.

  • Ascension. Your body transforms, instead of dying, you ascend to another type of being. Perhaps something similar to what happened to people inside the Old Age Devil realm, where people transformed into trees.

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u/idkiwilldeletethis 2d ago

I mean there were 5 other endings counting death, so none of them could be 100%

And I feel like that could potentially make death scarier, if you KNOW you're gonna die, you're still scared by it instinctively, but you can come to terms with it.

If there's a chance you might reincarnate or continue living, suddenly the idea that you just stop existing *forever* becomes much scarier

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u/SebasChua 1d ago

If Death gets erased, fear of concepts that prolong and/or spread suffering definitely get elevated to Primal devils, since there's no end to them now.

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u/Puzzleheaded_Ad2726 1d ago

Pain definitely exists and pain would not be stronger than Death.

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u/Puzzleheaded_Ad2726 1d ago

Pain definitely exists and pain would not be stronger than Death.

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u/idk91738 1d ago

I just realized pain and disease haven’t even been mentioned yet that’s insane

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u/Solstrum 1d ago

Yeah, I think we haven't seen Disease because Pestilence is related to the four horsemen (replacing Conquest aka Control Devil).

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u/ArchAngel621 2d ago

Hypothetically, if the setting had a Creator-God or Satan/ Lucifer/ Devil/ Evil Embodiment.

Hell was created somehow. As well as the rules preventing Devils from leaving.

How is it that all concepts in existence are tied to Devils?

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u/StayInner2000 2d ago

Despite their name, devils in chainsaw man don't strike me as religious at all tbh, i don't think we'll ever see an explanation for their existence, sometimes the supernatural just exists but even if it did, it wouldn't a devil so death would be the strongest devil, even if a satan devil existed death would still be stronger because only religious people are afraid of satan and even then, the majority of them feel safe because their religion tell them that they're protected from him by god as lomg as they keep on believing, death on the other hand is universal, you don't even need to be human to be afraid of it, any creature smart enough to feel rudimentary emotions like fear is inherently afraid of death

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u/ArchAngel621 2d ago edited 2d ago

It doesn't have to be based on Religion. Humans in the CSM could've developed it to cope with what they don't understand.

That would be dependent if Satan created the Devils or if the power system is deliberately made to limit and restrict their power by being depending on fear. Forcing them to be evil in order to get stronger and survive. With CSM’s original purpose to erase those that get too strong/ rebellious.

Alternatively: * Satan could get power from fear/ evil itself regardless of which Devil its directed to. * God and Satan are beyond the concepts that the Devils represent.

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u/Jestin23934274 2d ago

We already saw the Hell Devil easily get one shot by Pochita, and i’d argue the fear of eternal damnation is more feared than the devil.

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u/ArchAngel621 2d ago

There's also the question of how all the Devils are trapped in Hell?

Clearly, the Hell Devil couldn't have trapped the Primal Fears. Why can't they brute force their way out?

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u/ConcreteEater 2d ago

"Trapped" its their home dimension. They respawn there after dying on earth and viceversa. Its just that there are only so many ways cross dimensions

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u/Jestin23934274 2d ago

Yeah and most devils don’t really decide when they die

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u/Soup484 2d ago

I think Hell could have totally different connotations in the CSM world than it does in ours. To us, Hell is a place that, if you believe in it, you are sent to eternally suffer if you live a sinful life.

Meanwhile, CSM Hell is just a place. Granted, it's a different reality from which all Devils originate, but it's still just a place. Maybe Christianity (and any other religion that endorses Hell's existence) still claims you'll be sent to Hell for sinning, but CSM Hell exists and there's really no proof to say that humans are sent there ever. So, maybe Hell as a concept is feared due to the fact that's it's a highly unknown place with countless Devils that want to murder you, but I feel it would be feared less than in our world due to its provable nature.

To add onto this insane yap sesh with an unrelated theory, maybe one of the erased death alternatives was humans being sent to Hell the same way Devils cycle between the two. Maybe Hell and Earth once were both inhabited by Devils and humans alike.

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u/sbrockLee 2d ago

The Pain Devil would like to have a word

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u/OhOhOhOhOhOhOhOkay 1d ago

Yeah go ask someone being tortured or someone suffering from terminal cancer how they feel about death. People literally choose death all the time to avoid suffering. And ask anyone how they want to eventually die? “Peacefully in my sleep”

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u/Kraven_Lupei 2d ago

Is there a fear devil? Haha nothing to fear but fear itself

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u/gsn1992 2d ago edited 1d ago

I'd argue that death is scary bucause there's no guarantee of anything beyond that. It we could all prove anything that could or could not happen beyond death, society as whole would be a lot more different. So I'd say nothing could be more powerful than the Unknown Devil, because the unknown is the thing that gives power and fear to death itself

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u/doofpooferthethird 2d ago

not necessarily, plenty of animals are driven by their evolutionary impulses to sacrifice themselves for others.

it's like that tongue in cheek math equation "I would gladly give up my life for two siblings or eight cousins".

when it comes to human beings living in complex cultures, this can manifest as people being more afraid of social ostracism and "dishonour" than they are of literally dying.

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u/1WeekLater 1d ago

altruistic impulse exist since sacrificing 1 monkey to save the whole monkey is very beneficial to the species itself

so having evolutionary impulses to sacrifice themselves for others exist so the whole species doesnt "die" by sacrificing a few member so the other can "live"

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u/james_harry 2d ago

While it is true we fear many things because they lead to death, we only fear them because death means we don't pass on genes.

Take falling for example. Monkey A is born with the fear of falling, while B isn't. B jumps off a cliff, dies, has no kids. A doesn't jump off a cliff, lives, has kids who have that fear of falling passed onto them.

Monkey A didn't fear falling because it leads to death, it feared falling because it just happened to be born with that trait. And that trait was beneficial to survival and was thus passed on.

We don't fear things like falling or drowning because we fear death, but because those fears improve our chances of reproducing. Correlation not causation

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u/OwlrageousJones 2d ago

I disagree.

People learn to accept death. People even decide that death is preferable to whatever else might be going on.

The concept of a fate worse than death is so common in stories, that the phrase 'a fate worse than death' is basically an idiom on its own.

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u/1WeekLater 1d ago

Well said

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u/WittyProfile 1d ago

Counterpoint, the eternity devil would rather kill itself than get tortured by chainsaw man for the rest of eternity so doesn’t that suggest torture is more feared?

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u/DarkShadowOverlord 1d ago

No lol you can fear getting your ass beat or suffering or losing something.

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u/Fragrant_Bite9951 1d ago

Aside from all the other comments mentioning the fear of pain or torture, I also think the fear of loss of reproduction is a real one. Since reproduction is an evolutionary goal pretty much on par with survival it would make sense that the fear of not passing on our genes, or like, genital mutilation, would be really scary.

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u/Apart_Monitor4644 1d ago

And why we fear death because we don't known what happen next, why we fear Darkness because we don't known what in the dark. I think the devil that probably stronger than Death is "Xenophobia Devil or Unknown Devil"

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u/zefumaca_ 2d ago

but you have to take into consideration that everyone fears death because it is an indisputable truth, death is absolute, we will all die. However, not everyone will be tortured throughout their lives, it is not a universal fear, torture does not happen to everyone. Obviously he is probably a very feared demon, after all, the idea of ​​being tortured is terrible, but still, it doesn't happen to everyone, so he is weaker.

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u/Ayo_Square_Root 2d ago edited 2d ago

Considering that falling represents both literal falling from heights and falling into depression, torture might as well represent literal torture and psychological one, either inflected by others or by one self with obssessions and such.

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u/Benjinifuckyou 2d ago

My rendition of the Torture Devil

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u/flippy123x 2d ago edited 2d ago

but you have to take into consideration that everyone fears death because it is an indisputable truth, death is absolute, we will all die.

Which wasn’t even true in CSM until Pochita erased all the other outcomes other than death (according to Makima), which he could potentially restore in order to hurt her.

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u/Hazuba 2d ago

Birth

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u/zefumaca_ 2d ago

what??

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u/Ifyoufearfornothing 1d ago

Not everyone fears it just because it happens to everyone.

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u/zefumaca_ 1d ago

to some degree everyone has it, some more than others, but everyone has

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u/PredZero 2d ago

The thing about primordial devils is that our brains are hardwired to fear the concepts they represent. like, as an adult, you might say you're not afraid of the dark but if you suddenly found yourself alone in a pitch-black room or a jungle, your body would still react with fear. It's a natural response beyond your control.

with Death, it goes even deeper as every fear we have is, in some way, tied to avoiding death. even pain exists as a mechanism to protect your body and help you survive. That’s why death is such a powerful devil, the fear of it is rooted in our biology, not just our imagination.

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u/Substantial_Bet_1007 2d ago

I want a devil more fearfull than death devil

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u/Four4quatrequatro 2d ago

I think the only one that I think could be is Darkness because it ties into the fear of the unknown which could also be why some people fear death. Since we don’t really know what happens after. To the point that we’ve created various interpretations of “afterlife”.

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u/Pitiful-Foot-8748 2d ago

One of the alternatives to death that Pochita erased could be potentially stronger if its something like eternal torture in hell devil.

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u/HotZilchy 2d ago

But technically death would LEAD to eternal torture in hell so that can't be the separate fate since they are both heavily linked together

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u/ryteousknowmad 2d ago

Only if you think death must first occur for eternal torture. That's not necessarily the case if we consider eternal punishment an alternative for death where death is simply the end of existence.

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u/HotZilchy 2d ago

ah, that is also true.

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u/ryteousknowmad 2d ago

teamwork _^

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u/ryteousknowmad 2d ago

teamwork _^

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u/3FrogsInATrenchcoat 2d ago

I doubt the other alternatives were as bad as death. The fact that chainsaws man was able to defeat and erase them but not death leads me to believe death was worse

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u/Puzzleheaded_Ad2726 1d ago

Thank you. I agree with this.

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u/DaylightsStories 2d ago

Finally, someone else with some common sense. If you cut Aging's power into fifths I think she'd still beat Chainsaw Man 10/10 times. Someone with ~1/5 the strength of an even nastier devil would not be threatened by some guy with saws.

I think ghosts and zombies were two of the alternatives, with the associated devils now representing a fictionalized version instead of being reincarnated from the erased ones. I'm sure you could create a Fictional Nazi Devil too, if you explained what they were and published stories about them and whatnot. It just wouldn't be the Nazi Devil that got eaten.

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u/Esereyy 2d ago

The only one I can potentially consider is the Pain Devil.

Some people might accept the fact they’ll die, but people will always be afraid to die painfully.

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u/LordRatini777 2d ago

I mean, we only have pain because it helps us avoid death. Most fears can be ultimately linked to fearing death. If anything, fear of the unknown would be a good contender for someone stronger than death, but we already got the Darkness Devil in that department, and I'm sure Death is just stronger.

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u/Echodec 2d ago

Pain can be seen as worse than death, even if it is spawned from an evolutionary aversion to things that could kill us. Even Eternity would rather die than be tortured.

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u/LordRatini777 2d ago

Yea,h but that's the thing. It is very rare for someone to be in so much pain that they legitimately want to die, and even then, preferring death over your current predicament doesn't really mean that you are not afraid of it. Like, Pain is sure to be one of the strongest devils, imo, but the fear of death is so universal that I can't really think of anything that can be worse than that.

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u/Echodec 2d ago

I mean, a lot of people irl want to die than deal with the rest of life. Or if someone has a chronic illness and in hospice or whatever. I think there's enough times where death can be peaceful and accepted, or preferred than continued living. Not that you are unafraid, necessarily, but sometimes it's not viewed as the worst thing, and even sometimes seen somewhat positively. I think they'd be tied or extremely similar in power. Who knows. Maybe even going a bit more nebulous with "suffering" instead of just "pain"

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u/sbrockLee 2d ago

Disagree. Death is universal, and in a way that also helps you fear it less. "Dying peacefully in my sleep at 100 surrounded by my loved ones" is actually a desirable outcome for most people.

Pain is, in many cases, what people fear about death too.

I'd argue the fear of oblivion might be even stronger.

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u/Dongbang420 2d ago

I was thinking pain too, if not stronger it’s definitely close.

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u/phillyhandroll 2d ago

More specifically, suffering. That's usually what people mean when someone experiences "a fate worse than death." With that said, War devil would actually be stronger than Death, as eternal suffering is what almost all religions use to threaten their followers rather than only dying.

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u/KiwiNeat1305 1d ago

Pain devil is too simple as a concept

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u/Sahir1359 2d ago

The alternatives to death that pothita ate must have been pretty nasty

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u/Benjinifuckyou 2d ago

But at the same time he WAS able to defeat him (unless they were force fed to him) so that already means they wouldn’t scale to primal

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u/Legitimate-Rain-4296 2d ago

If their where alternate endings to life that would Probably make the death devil weaker and maybe their was time when pochita was stronger

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u/Benjinifuckyou 2d ago

Could be. Assuming he is something beyond the chainsaw

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u/Dirka-Dirka 2d ago

Literally the public speaking devil.

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u/GrybbC 2d ago

Fumbling a baddie devil

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u/Blank_IX 2d ago

Maybe loss?

I can’t really remember the details of how things work though. This might have even been mentioned somewhere in the story already.

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u/Benjinifuckyou 2d ago

Loss should be extremely powerful. Also what details would those be?

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u/tonsvz 2d ago

Yes, Giga Death.

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u/Transfiguredcosmos 2d ago

Suffering devil.

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u/Large-Rain-2146 2d ago

"Speaking in front of a large group" devil

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u/TheOreji 2d ago

It's the "Walking up the stairs when there's a women infront of you" devil

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u/MostlySilentWatcher 2d ago

The devil devil.

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u/Character-Profile158 2d ago

Devils don't fear eachother tho and human have gotten more desensitised to them

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u/WnDelPiano 2d ago

Maybe one of the Devils Pochita erased, like the star or the other endings of life besides Death.

A Fear Devil maybe, but the prophecy and most character see Death as the strongest.

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u/unrulymeowmeow 1d ago

Imagine Pochita eats it and all devils just go limp or disintegrate

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u/Und3rwork 2d ago

Not torture for sure because there are much more fear which originate from fear of death, potentially Pochita and by extend whoever control him could eat the major fears related to death and weaken her.

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u/darh1407 2d ago

The women devil

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u/GalatianBookClub 2d ago

If you want some food for thought about the fears you could watch Vsauce's What Is The Scariest Thing?

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u/J_Brobot 2d ago

Every fear leads to fear of death. There isn't anyone stronger.

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u/uuuuh_hi 1d ago

Every fear leads to the unknown which is what we truly fear. Death takes us to the unknown

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u/Mefre Indestructible Paradox Demon 2d ago

We have no reason to believe so. Unless there is some Soul Eater type Asura being the God / Embodiment / Great Old One of Fear. And there has been no implication of something like that, so as far as we know and have been hinted at, Death is the most powerful.

Only thing I could think of is if you run with Chainsaw Man being the Birth Devil and thus since death requires life to occur, then you could argue the birth Devil is stronger or at least on par. But that is still theory stuff at best as of yet, so we can't confirm anything.

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u/DrawLongjumping1169 2d ago

No, I doubt it

It has been stated numerous times throughout the Manga that Death is the most powerful Devil by multiple characters and logically it makes sense. Death is basically the mother of fear, we have fear because evolutionarily fear is what kept us alive. So every single fear in existence exists becuase of death, meaning Death is basically the root of all fears.

As for rivaling her powers? I also doubt it bevuase it says in the prophecy all of the most powerful primal devils welcome Death

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u/CHENNAIAKSHATSHARMA 2d ago

A+ grade devil

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u/Chernobog2 2d ago

The fear of nonexistance. People will sometimes choose death, maybe to save someone or to avoid pain. I dont think anyone would choose to have everything they ever were dissapear into nothing.
In the series, the only creature we see pursuing nonexistance is the Aging devil, but people in the series have voluntarily chosen death.

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u/somegrumpycat 1d ago

I believe it's Birth.

Birth is the first traumatic event every animal experiences—being forced out of the safety of the womb into a chaotic, unfamiliar world. It's brief, but it marks the very first encounter with fear, long before death ever becomes a concept.

In the Chainsaw Man universe, devils are caught in a constant cycle of reincarnation between Hell and Earth. Imagine a Birth Devil—a being tied to the concept of beginnings rather than endings. Its power could be terrifyingly primal: the ability to prevent things from being born altogether. That would make it a threat not just to life, but to existence itself. If death is feared because it ends things, birth could be feared because it forces things to begin.

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u/Vulking 2d ago

How about the Nihility Devil? Fear that nothing matters, not even death, everything is meaningless in the universe.

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u/NotYu2222 2d ago

Other candidates based on personal bias: Hell, Loss, The Future, the Past, Void(nothingness)

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u/Four4quatrequatro 2d ago

I doubt Future/Past is too strong considering the former was captured by Public Safety.

Hell Devil seemed pretty powerful but it kind of ties into Death.

Loss maybe

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u/NotYu2222 1d ago

Future past could just want to be captured, they don’t necessarily have massive goals except for fucking with public safety

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u/Giviat 2d ago

maybe the devil of non-existence? idk seems like the fear of death stemms from fearing to not exist. could be pochita tbh as he can erase concepts completely.

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u/akinblack 2d ago

Fear devil...

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u/Dongbang420 2d ago

The only thing we have to fear is fear itself. Wait that makes it worse. Fuck.

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u/RedTezcatlipoca 2d ago

In chainsaw man universe death was not the only conclusion for life, so I'd guess some other devils were more powerful but since they don't exist anymore, Death is the most powerful at the moment.

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u/PsycoJosho 2d ago

Ecposure - the fear of being seen by others

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u/TheDavidOfReddit 2d ago

The only thing I could think of is the fear of being forgotten, which is what Pochita could also be the Devil of, which is why whenever CSM eats a Devil, the fear is forgotten or removed

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u/GooConDee1 2d ago

Elevation of CO2 in the blood caused by an uncontrollable external threat Ref

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u/iSvad 2d ago

I think the only one that might come remotely close is Extinction. In death, there's at least a reassurance that others like you will still exist, but that doesn't happen if ur whole species goes extinct.

This is also why I like to think Pochita is actually the Extinction Devil. It would be a cool explanation of its ability to just delete shit from existence.

The problem with this theory is that Idk what chainsaws have to do with any of that.

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u/Tuburonpereze 2d ago

Only maybe like eternity or oblivion, but thats why we fear death, like if death was a time out for a week nobody would fear it.

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u/egfdzgdfgsfdvzdvc 2d ago

In some famous survey, public speaking was deemed the number 1 fear by people even over death. So some sort of embarrassment/public speaking devil could be stronger. Also maybe the devil devil.

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u/ABigOwl 2d ago

I still think the Future Devil is far, far stronger then he lets on, he is literally the fear of things happening. He might be chilling because he knows how things will play out and because he might have been the one who got the ball rolling on this prophecy thing.

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u/0Lukke0 2d ago edited 2d ago

wouldn't a torture devil be stronger than death since its so bad that people prefer death over it

have you ever heard of BDSM? CBT? Autoerotic asphyxiation?

But no, if the extrapolation that says falling devil comes both from the fear of falling from altitude and from falling in despair, then we can also extrapolate death as not just biologically dying but ceasing to exist, and if so, then death is far and above any other devil simply because, literally anything, living or not, wants to exist in some form, a star explodes, but the elements that formed it still exist in some form, you die but your body gets absorbed by a plant or eaten by insects, you still exist in some way.

And this ties to the theory that Pochita is Death's offspring, when it was born, it took with it the concept of erasure, while death kept just the biological death, hence why they say Chainsaw man is the only hope to stop death, because as the oblivion/void/nonexistence devil, anything, any object, any life, any concept will inherently fear it, if something exist, it will by power pochita automatically, including death, which could explain why she is unable to die even if she wants, because the concept itself wants to exist, and she doesn't have the power that Pochita took when it was born.

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u/Oscar_gpb 2d ago

I think the Four Conclusions to Life that Chainsawman devoured should be on par if not perhaps be stronger than Death depending what they actually were. It's possible that their erasure made Death even stronger since it's the only end to life and not just one of five.

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u/Anomander_Cake 2d ago

The idea that existing is suffering, and that it would be better if nothing existed at all. Death is a fundamental fear, but it is also an escape from existence.

I think there is at least one devil superior to the horsemen. They are all sisters, which implies a parent. Just like the 4 horsemen have lesser devils as their children.

Existence as the original fear would tie into the cosmology of the Chainsawman universe because it is a fundamental aspect of all devils. They are cursed to exist forever, only losing their memories and flipping between Hell and Earth when they die. It ties into Pochita’s power. Pochita can erase devils from existence. He doesn’t just kill them, he erases them like they never existed at all. That could be why he is the “hero of hell”. He is a rebel against the father devil Existence.

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u/AdHoc_ttv 2d ago

Sure there is. People are way more afraid of public speaking than death

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u/Aisendadt 2d ago

Based on people s fears probably pain Devil and nothingness devil

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u/_espilce 2d ago

Unknown Devil? I know that it's probably Darkness Devil but let's pretend they are seperate

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u/Benjinifuckyou 2d ago

They are definitely separate devils. Both power each other but they are different words

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u/Puzzleheaded_Ad2726 1d ago

Would unknown be primal, and where would he scale compared to Darkness and Death?Would he be stronger or weaker than Darkness and pain? What would he look like?

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u/Benjinifuckyou 1d ago

Obviously weaker than pain. Pain is an immediate action that directly ails you without chance for interpretation, and lingers afterwards, even mentally. If I had to guess that’s the second strongest after death.

The unknown would in my opinion be tied with darkness, maybe slightly stronger. Lacking information and being uncertain about what you see and what will happen to you are fundamentals of fear

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u/Puzzleheaded_Ad2726 1d ago

Would it be weaker or stronger than a suffocation devil. You know the thing people with amygdala are afraid of.There's this study where they tested the reactions of a woman with no fear response. Like there was some defect in her brain that caused her to just not fear anything, but they found that cutting off her air supply caused a panic response. So for whatever reason that one is seemingly hard coded into us outside of other fear reactions and suffocation can be an umbrella term for the fear of the ocean, drowing and claustrophobia. Also the fear if predators, people are only afraid of darkness because predators can hide easier in the dark.

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u/Benjinifuckyou 1d ago

Fear of predators and any assailant should be strong. But weaker than things like danger or harm since they are broader. Suffocation May be primal in concept but you have to remember just how much humanity is actually exposed to it. I’ve suffocated maybe twice in my life and I don’t dwell on any of those things

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u/Puzzleheaded_Ad2726 1d ago

Nuh I think it is.

Why would aging be a primal, I don't dwell on aging that much or care about it. Currently I and people my age are not scared of aging. The people I know aren't scared of it either. Obviously people don't dwell on suffocation everyday because we are not suffocating every moment of every day. And I'm also not scared of the dark at all, I walk around in my house in complete darkness, and I don't care. I don't think. Also there is this study https://www.grouporttherapy.com/blog/primordial-fears#:~:text=Primordial%20fears%2C%20also%20known%20as,predators%2C%20death%2C%20and%20isolation. It says the 5 primal fears, are death,darkness,heights, isolation and predators. Also where would you scale the primals we have seen so far and the potential primals in the future, like pain, disease, predators, Loud noises and potentially suffocation. I still believe darkness and the unknown could be the same entity. I don't know if isolation would be there because loneliness was in buddy stories, but maybe they're different devils? I don't know.

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u/Benjinifuckyou 1d ago

Isolation and Loneliness would definitely be different devils, but since loneliness was defeated it’s only natural he has been reincarnated already. Also you’re forgetting he was a fiend, which puts a gargantuan cap on your abilities, and even then he literally had conceptual abilities above anything we’ve ever seen from any fiend.

As for that chart you’re showing that’s just a non factor. Fujimoto is the one who decides. I agree with you that aging shouldn’t be a primal either because it’s not something we are genetically predisposed to fear but I’m sure Fujimoto has his reasons.

Also of course you’re not afraid to be in the dark in your house lmao it’s your house

As of now, feat wise the order is Falling (who as nerfed) >Darkness>Aging

I don’t wanna scale the rest right now that sounds boring

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u/Puzzleheaded_Ad2726 1d ago

Falling over Darkness is strange to me

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u/Benjinifuckyou 1d ago

Why is that? They have the exact same regeneration abilities. Fallings presence on earth caused passive gravity shifts. Darkness’s passive is just artificial darkness. Her attack potency and destructive capability has shown to be stronger than anything darkness pulled. All this while being nerfed, as all Death Devil Pawns are

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u/Puzzleheaded_Ad2726 1d ago

Are you sure Darkness is also not just the unknown devil? I mean it makes sense. The way he talks, the way his powers work and his introduction.

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u/Benjinifuckyou 1d ago

They are two different words. They are objectively not the same devil as that is not possible

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u/Puzzleheaded_Ad2726 1d ago

Why not? What would a unknown devil even look like. And it's design would probably be worse than Darkness. Darkness's Design is perfect and works as a unknown devil.

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u/Benjinifuckyou 1d ago

What do you mean why not? Why would the fear conjured by the word Unknown be redirected to Darkness? That makes no sense. If you want to say darkness makes people scared of the unknown and vice versa, powering each other up, that’s fine by me. But they literally cannot be the same being

Also I don’t understand your reasonings lmao your subjective taste makes an unknown devil design useless?

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u/Puzzleheaded_Ad2726 1d ago

Darkness already feels like a an unknown devil. He speaks in an incomprehension tongue and his attacks make no sense. The astronaut panel feels like the introduction of an unknown devil. He just feels like one. He is so eldritch, and alien. We can’t understand him. And I think Darkness is one of the best designs in the series, an unknown devil will probably look inferior. And what would an unknown devil look like? You didn't answer my question.

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u/Benjinifuckyou 1d ago

I don’t have to answer your question. This has gone past the productive discussion to just subjective talk. Darkness feeling like an unknown devil is only natural, virtually every single word is incarnated in a devil, overlaps in theme and behavior are bound to happen

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u/Gear10l 2d ago

what about the unknown devil?

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u/Benjinifuckyou 2d ago

Would likely be close in power with darkness

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u/Clydial 2d ago

If any, it would be pain. Suffer enough and you'll want death.

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u/Mmath_ 2d ago

is there a devil devil

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u/Benjinifuckyou 2d ago

Up until recently the answer was no, because the fear you have of devils powers all devils, as stated by Makima. However, in a recent Q&A fujimoto didn’t deny it when outright questioned and said it would be an interesting concept to explore

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u/Vounrtsch 2d ago

How would we know? We’re not the ones writing the manga

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u/ao_zame 2d ago

"Reze and Nayuta are dead" devil. "Power will never come back" devil is also very strong.

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u/PerceptionLiving9674 2d ago

Maybe the devil of extinction 

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u/Sedona54332 2d ago

The Devil devil.

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u/DevilsLegalAdvocate 2d ago

Public speaking devil

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u/GenghisGame 2d ago

Potentially yes but at the same time the author can just decide death is the strongest, full stop. We can guess but there is good argument to make one way or another for what will ultimately be down to someone's whim.

wouldn't a torture devil be stronger than death since its so bad that people prefer death over it

Surely you should know it's also quantity.

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u/LazarusTruth 2d ago

No because death is inevitable, it's unavoidable, many know these things and still fear it

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u/classicslayer 2d ago

Logically no but this is CSM and fujimoto isn't a powerscaler so it's possible going by his writing style.

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u/WonderfulPresent9026 2d ago

The reading comprehension devil.

The women devil

The pain devil.

The shitty ending devil.

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u/Feneskrae 2d ago

I think if such a thing were possible it would have to be from a roundabout way apart from the "most feared thing = most powerful Devil" concept. For instance, if a Devil had power over something that was uniquely powerful beyond the realm of what we consider "fear". The only thing that comes to mind, and this is a stretch, would be something like the Darkness Devil having power over all the darkness in the universe and everything within that darkness, and there being something within that vast expanse that can beat Death or keep it in check.

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u/kunell 2d ago

Pain was evolved to avoid death in the first place.

But the more important thing to consider would be the fact that "torture" isnt thought about as often as death so there is less fear of it.

Pain on the other hand... Maybe. Even if it is a byproduct of fear of death.

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u/Elliran 2d ago

The chainsaw devil/chainsawman. While yes, death is a universal fear, that affect everyone and is innevitable, there is confort in that. You're not alone. Your life and achievements will be remembered by those it affected. But the chainsaw devil is complete and utter erasure. You never existed, your deeds amounted to nothing, noone will remember you. It's the fear of being forgotten, of not mattering. While it is less universal than fear of death, I think it is much more potent.

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u/Jotaoesehache 2d ago

Devil devil

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u/Fun_Shift_572 2d ago

Maybe something like a Hell Devil? Because people are insanely scared of death. But what could be worse, eternal torment

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u/Altirius 2d ago

There is one thing every single living thing wants to do

"SURVIVE"

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u/Normanov 2d ago

Devil devil

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u/Sharkictus 2d ago

Fear devil.

Fear of fear.

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u/Mega_Hunter_X 2d ago

Hear me out. The Devil. As in Lucifer/Satan.

He exists as a concept since there's a painting of Lucifer in Makima's apartment.

And there's the Christianity references with Makima declaring 8 different devils to be Chainsaw Man's followers, with them being named after choirs of angels.

There's also the implication that Heaven exists, through Angel Devil telling a dying woman that she's going to heaven.

What if he's the great King of Terror? And the reason why Devils roam Earth is because he succeeded in his rebellion against God and wants to destroy Humanity for good?

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u/Specific-Listen-6859 2d ago

I think we as intelligent beings can imagine a thing worse than death. Like suffering, or the life devil where there is no ending to pain and anguish. I agree that the reason why fear exists is because of death. But I think because of our intelligent minds we can think about things that supersede death. So I think death may be the oldest, but not necessarily the most powerful. But a counter point is that the fear isn't primal therefore powerful because it isn't ingrained in us, but rather learned.

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u/Shirou_Emiyas_Alt 2d ago

I feel like darkness may be stronger. Think about it, you fear darkness not just because you may die but because you simply don't know what it contains, it's a fear without limits or constraints. Death is absolute, but it's also knowable and understandable.

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u/wonderguard108 2d ago

ever since we met angel devil i've been wondering about the possibility of a god devil. so maybe that one

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u/WesTheFitting 2d ago

Public speaking

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u/Unlikely-Ad-9749 2d ago

I like to entertain that the fear of the unknown could reign supreme. If we knew exactly what happens after death, it would be much less scary, no? I feel like all fear in some way or another is derived from “not knowing”. However, if we look at things in a sense of biological fear, rather than what we view as frightful as rational beings, death>unknown. Our bodies are hard wired to avoid danger, ergo death.

Additionally, some food for thought, are we scared of the unknown because it could lead to death? Or are we scared of death because its nature is so unknown? If we’re taking the “rational” approach to fear, I believe the answer lies in the answer to that question! Otherwise, it’s death, with little competition.

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u/gamingthrowaway27 2d ago

Uncanny valley devil, huntsman spider devil, childhood fear of quicksand devil, and because of the internet, the heigene devil

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u/KrimzonK 2d ago

The stuck upsidedown in a cave and slowly dis of thirst devil

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u/TheOnlyFallenCookie 2d ago

The public speaking devil

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u/nogoodwithsarcasm 1d ago

The fear of the unknown. A big part of the fear for death is caused by not knowing what will happen after death. Irl martyrs were willing to die for their beliefs partly because they believed in heaven or that their souls would be rewarded by god after their death.

The unknown is also the root for the other primal fear of darkness as people are not afraid of the dark itself but rather afraid of whatever could hide inside it. If you are absolutely certain there are no threats in the dark, then you won't be afraid in the dark.

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u/DarkShadowOverlord 1d ago

Maybe pain or fear if it exists

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u/ol1ezjka 1d ago

GOD DEVIL 

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u/lhc987 1d ago

Unknown Devil? We fear death because we do not know what lies beyond the veil.

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u/JusHerForTheComments 1d ago

What if the origin of the devils is humans going in hell and Pochita ate that concept?

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u/LordHaywood 1d ago

tax devil

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u/Crunkario 1d ago

So for all those saying that pochita in his prime has no chance against the other ends to life if they were primal fears so they must not be primal fears, I would disagree entirely. Think about it like this, pochita fought the horsemen and the weapon devils all at once, that includes death, that means death and many more incredibly powerful threats all at once.

Pochita is strong, pochita represents a fear that is also deep-seated in everyone, the concept of actual destruction, extinction. He can erase beings from existence. I do not know why he is so much weaker now than he was before, but I don’t think it matters necessarily. Its basically proven that pochita, at one point, was as strong as they get devil wise.

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u/Benjinifuckyou 1d ago

Problem is we don’t actually know how well he fared against Death or if she was even trying. Since Yoru was was taken down so many times and eaten partially eaten it’s safe to say her arsenal wasn’t too big or for some reason she didn’t have access to it. Then you have makima who is laughably weak without contracts whose details are unknown to us in the great battle.

What if death didn’t intervene much but as soon as she did that’s when pochita had to flee?

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u/CallousedCrusader 1d ago

A fate worse than death.

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u/Puzzleheaded_Ad2726 1d ago

No,Even in Vsauce's web of fear. Every fear is just trying to avoid death. Literally 99% of humans fear death. Plus being afraid of devils is basically being afraid of dying from them. And fear itself is usually a self-preservation response, a response programmed to stop you from dying. We are a afraid of falling from great heights because we think it will kill us. Darkness is scary because we think there might be something in the dark that will kill us. Why are we afraid of guns? Because it will kill us. We are afraid of spiders because evolution made us instinctively think they might be venomous. The amygdala itself, the thing responsible for fear, is there to insure your survival and so you avoid Death. Our bodies are programmed to fear death, it's why we look twice before crossing the road, why we have a fight or flight response, which a lot of animals have.Every living things first instinct is to survive.Point is. Death is the strongest character in the entire setting by an abusrd insurmountable margin, and I hope they are unbeatable

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u/Groundbreaking_Bar15 1d ago

Devil devil is the only one in can see being stronger

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u/Matt_The_Matics 1d ago

“Fear” itself? Satan? Evil?

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u/HumanRaceTheGuy 1d ago

The fear of god could rival it because people are taught from a young age to be willing to die for there religion

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u/0udini 1d ago

Fear of loss/losing ?

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u/Competitive_Ad_8528 1d ago

Unknown devil or the devil of the unknown. Psychologically speaking, one of the basic things about the fear of death is that we are afraid of the unknown.

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u/awwwyeahaquaman 1d ago

Public-Speaking Devil?

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u/emeraldkingpanda-kun 1d ago

How about devil devil a devil that was born out of humanities fear of devil's

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u/Lazagna_ 1d ago

I think there are a lot more people actively worried about death than there are who are worried about being tortured. Really the only people who are scared of torture are ones who have already been tortured. Even then, a lot of people who might be tortured are trained and prepared from it so they don't fear it.

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u/uuuuh_hi 1d ago

The oldest and most primal fear is fear of the unknown

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u/Ommlettuce 1d ago

Theres a chance Fujimoto gets philisophical and the most powerful devil is the "other" devil, as in the fear of people who are not you. Could fit well with Asa's antisocial personality and Denji's occasional malice towards others.

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u/anemoia4 21h ago

The devil devil

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u/Jabronisdick 21h ago

what about the unknown?

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u/FArnese_1 20h ago

What come after death? Unknown. Maybe that's the endgame.

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u/Turbulent_Driver001 Realm Devil 20h ago

Fujimoto ? The one who knows it all

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u/semencrispmunk 17h ago

I think God Devil would be an interesting one. If there's an Angel Devil, then why not a God Devil?

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u/Revel_Icon 16h ago

MAGA Devil

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u/Few-Cardiologist5532 6h ago

Instinctually, all life fears death as an evolutionary response. Very few species who don't have base survival instincts ever survive long. As such all fears eventually lead back to the fear of death regardless of the actual cause. Why do you fear falling? or fear the dark/unknown? Cuz they might lead to death.

Other concepts like torture are too abstract to fully conceptualize, yeah I'm afraid of it but I'm most likely not going to ever be exposed to it. But unless you're suicidal, everyone is afraid of dying.