r/EverythingScience • u/shinybrighthings • Feb 19 '25
Medicine Trump cuts threaten a ‘generation of scientists’ as many weigh leaving US
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/feb/19/trump-nih-funding-scientists115
u/PseudoWarriorAU Feb 19 '25
Come to Australia bring your science with you. We are hiding under a rock Uluṟu. China buys our minerals and US house there long range bombers here. Needed by both, safe from both.
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Feb 19 '25
CIA satellite facilities in the outback
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u/Linyuxia Feb 20 '25
With the big downturn universities are going through right now I really can’t really see tons of qualified american researchers not just making the fight for limited positions even worse
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u/Bob_Spud Feb 19 '25
Be careful about Australia, it just as erratic as the US. The Australian governmentfrequently changes the rules.
Also you can't work for the Australian government research institions as it requires Australian citizenship.
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u/PseudoWarriorAU Feb 19 '25 edited Feb 20 '25
*(edit) That be true. But CSIRO did event wifi so we have that going for us. * Australia is currently Scandinavian level safe as far as government are concerned, plus we aren’t co-located to truely mad and Machiavellian state actors.
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u/Sudden-Translator707 Feb 22 '25
Um no, we are about to elect a right-wing government well known for purging scientists
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u/Pezdrake Feb 21 '25
Australia has a long history of racism. I and many others wouldn't leave the USA right now for another majority-white country.
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Feb 19 '25 edited Feb 19 '25
When all of your intellectual capital is forced to vacate or work in a field outside of their expertise, bad things happen to your country. "The Great Leap Forward stemmed from multiple factors, including "the purge of intellectuals, the surge of less-educated radicals...". That's not a joke about unionized radicals or STEM, it's a cold hard reality. 70% of the Great Chinese Famine's death toll was attributed to human error - they made farmers who were quite skilled at their profession migrate and work in metallurgy, producing steel that was unmarketable and malformed. This bit of history reminds me of how I was treated in this country. I went to school for chemistry, did very well and there was no job for me afterwards so I had to take on differing manual labor jobs until I ended up as a janitor/salesman. It's like when a doctor or lawyer from a foreign trans-nationalist capital country is forced to migrate to the US to drive Uber because it's more economically feasible for them and their families. This misappropriation from the state of skilled labor and capital hampers scientific development and societal progress. I think society's treatment of scientists like these is sickening and does more harm than good. We live in a society where scientists and teachers make a fraction of what an OF pornographer, an actor or a politician makes. Not only is that sickening, it's mentally debasing. edit: I'm sorry to conflate actors with those other two categories, my comment was simply dramatic irony upon the stage of life. We're all actors, in one way or another.
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u/Key-Boat-7519 Feb 19 '25
Undervaluing skilled labor is a huge issue, and it cuts deep when you see experts forced into jobs that don’t match their talents. I’ve been there myself—studied hard, only to end up in roles that didn’t challenge me or let me use my skills properly. It’s frustrating watching society push aside real expertise, leaving us short on innovation and progress. I tried Glassdoor and LinkedIn to find work that truly fit my background, but honestly, JobMate ended up being the backup I relied on to narrow down opportunities that valued my skill set. Undervaluing talent always hurts in the long run.
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u/FanLevel4115 Feb 19 '25
China is now the leader in science and tech.
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Feb 19 '25
China's Project2025 vs US Project 2025:
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u/FanLevel4115 Feb 19 '25
Exactly. China is pushing forward science and tech.
America is trying to clean coal with a brush or something.
54% of Americans are now reading at a 5th grade level or worse.
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Feb 19 '25
no worries: no Dept of Education means nobody can track literacy rates. 🫡
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u/FanLevel4115 Feb 20 '25
Good point!
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Feb 20 '25
it's all quantum, bruv: if you can't measure it then it doesn't exist! worked so well 1st time for COVID, innit.
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u/Admirable-Ad-5813 Feb 19 '25
China has overtaken the United States in the number of scientific papers published, patents awarded, and science and engineering PhDs awarded. China is the world’s largest producer of scientists in medicine, robotics, astronomy, and physics.
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u/Bpesca Feb 20 '25
They also lead the world in most retracted articles...its difficult to measure their true success due to rampant fraud.
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u/transwarpconduit1 Feb 20 '25
China is also one of the most populous nations in the planet, so I would expect that at some point just statistically speaking.
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Feb 19 '25
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u/arrwdodger Feb 19 '25
I think the problem might be that the quality ones can still be world class. This might be amplified by the numbers games as well, as they are producing a lot of research.
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Feb 20 '25
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u/too_much_to_do Feb 20 '25
So then you agree that China is still surpassing the US in quality papers.
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u/PalatinusG1 Feb 20 '25
All very well possible. They do have working full self driving cars for example.
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u/edtheheadache Feb 19 '25
Amazing how that works out, eh? Come to Canada. Go to Europe or anywhere without a fascist government.
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u/Magni691 Feb 19 '25
Canada needs to jump on this and push to be a centre of excellence in science and tech
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u/FanLevel4115 Feb 19 '25
I'm in Canada now. Ever travelled to China? Sure they're fascists but damn their cities make our crown jewels look like a dump. They laid 14,000km of bullet train tracks so it's real easy to travel around.
China gets shit done. Follow the progress on their aerospace programs. They are progressing by leaps and bounds. Their copy culture has been replaced by a 'do it better' culture. The change in a decade is crazy. And the machinery we buy from China is often made better than ours now
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u/MrZwink Feb 19 '25
it's amazing what can you can do as a government when you don't have to take into account property rights, human rights, the courts, the will of the people or anything else tbh.
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u/aeschenkarnos Feb 20 '25
An important component of “anything else” there is, the egos of malignant narcissist billionaires.
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u/FanLevel4115 Feb 20 '25
Yup.
I can't argue with the results however. The older generation still remembers hunger. They took that place from the worst shithole 3rd world to leading the race in half a century. That's impressive.
And keep in mind that we are on one side of a propaganda war. That whole Chinese social credit thing? It never even happened. The American media made the whole thing up. The Americans are responsible for just as many atrocities as the Chinese, if not more.
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u/Scrung3 Feb 20 '25
Difference is about ongoing atrocities (reeducation and sterilisation of Uyghurs, Tibetans). Also one party rule, no freedom of speech, judiciary is heavily infiltrated by ccp influence, I could go on. And I assume as a science enthusiast you use Wikipedia a lot. Guess what? It's banned there.
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u/PalatinusG1 Feb 20 '25
It's also amazing what you can do if you can have a longer term plan than 4-6 years a government in the west remains in power. planning 50 years ahead has its advantages.
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u/Nellasofdoriath Feb 20 '25
There was an interesting comment earlier about China requiring open free trade on the oceans, which requires a certain amount of stability which seems to be going away
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u/mx1701 Feb 20 '25
No they are not.
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u/myusernameblabla Feb 20 '25
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Feb 19 '25
[deleted]
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u/FanLevel4115 Feb 19 '25
Not anymore. They are leading the world is several fields. Especially battery research. They are several years ahead of North America and license obsolete designs for us to build for our market.
BYD and CATL are offering new batteries in China with 1.5 and 1.6M km/15 year warranties. And they have more electron capacity per kg.
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u/Admirable-Ad-5813 Feb 19 '25
China has overtaken the United States in the number of scientific papers published, patents awarded, and science and engineering PhDs awarded. China is the world’s largest producer of scientists in medicine, robotics, astronomy, and physics.
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Feb 20 '25
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u/someone_like_me Feb 20 '25
In general, it's difficult for a country to spend more than 2% of GNP on research. (That's not corporate research-- it's "pure" research without a product goal).
Every country for decades has plateaued at 2%. Canada can't afford to absorb the US NIH research staff.
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u/aeschenkarnos Feb 20 '25
Can’t really afford not to. Whoever figures it the fuck out first is going to get a massive technological advantage. The offer doesn’t even have to be all that high when the alternative is having to explain your research to some smirking Proud Boy at gunpoint.
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u/Urban_FinnAm Feb 20 '25
Deja Vu. I graduated in 1980 with a BS degree in environmental science and a few years later with a MS in aquatic ecology and ran smack dab into the Reagan administration.
Nothing changes. I wish them the best of luck. I hope they'll have better luck in another part of the world.
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u/Alklazaris Feb 19 '25
Honestly it's better they do. Go find a county that supports science that not only is profitable but one's that help people as well.
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u/a_tothe_zed Feb 20 '25
Come to Canada. I’d love to see the Canadian government offer hundreds of millions for new research to attract scientists.
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u/mcleodcmm Feb 20 '25
I have friends who are Canadian scientists and can’t get jobs. There aren’t currently enough positions and the field is very competitive.
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u/camilo16 Feb 20 '25
Because of an absence of capital. More capital investment directly would mean more jobs.
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u/aeschenkarnos Feb 20 '25
Some American capital can be expected to flee too. First a few, then a lot, after Trump decides that some have money he wants and aren’t loyal enough and has them poisoned out of a window.
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u/Beerden Feb 21 '25
And thanks to the Stephen Harper government: muzzling scientists and shredding data.
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u/Bigmoochcooch Feb 19 '25
A brain drain would be devastating for the USA. Hopefully it does not happen
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u/Lazy-Street779 Feb 19 '25
If these highly qualified scientists pay close attention they might find other countries are hiring…
isn’t saving your family from homelessness viewed the same as saving your country?
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u/mcleodcmm Feb 20 '25
There is just not a realistic option for all qualified scientists to be absorbed into other countries. I have friends with Phds in Canada who have been jobless for almost a year. I don’t think I have a better chance than they do.
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u/Odd_Bodkin Feb 19 '25
Funny. That’s exactly what happened in Germany in the 1930s too. Imagine that.
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u/CatShot1948 Feb 19 '25
Op, mind sharing a gift article link so those of us without a subscription can read it?
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u/shinybrighthings Feb 19 '25
There is no paywall! You can click do it later if it asks you to register.
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u/Jeremizzle Feb 20 '25
I work in biotech, for a big pharma company. I'm not desperate to get out of the US yet, but the thought has certainly crossed my mind. Depending how deep we sink as a country, and how weaponized the government becomes, I'm definitely keeping my options open. I'm lucky to have dual citizenship, should I need it.
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u/Meme-Botto9001 Feb 20 '25
And that’s the point where the brain drain starts…good luck with all the yes sayers leading into downfall.
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u/Glum-Supermarket1274 Feb 20 '25
Obvious anecdotal evidence, my sister works in biology research (she never talks about her work so that's kind of what I understand about her work. I am a chef, she got all the brains lol). She came from Asia got a doctorate in america and has been working there for decades. But she immediately left the first chance she got because all her friends and colleagues saw the trump win coming. They knew defunding was coming if he won. People don't want to work in an unstable country.
Just from my very narrow experience alone, america already lost at least 4 senior research scientists. Brain drain will absolutely continues to happen when the government defund programs and demonize scientists.
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u/GreenHeretic Feb 20 '25
Please apply to Canada, we need some smart folks to fill the gaps here. We'll even give you healthcare!
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u/AtomicSymphonic_2nd Feb 20 '25
I’ve had a few company reps at a university job fair recently tell me about European openings just yesterday… brain drain seems to be in motion.
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u/Optimal-Scientist233 Feb 21 '25
There is actually a lot of land in some really nice places that are not in the USA.
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u/Bob_Spud Feb 19 '25
There's always been a stream of scientists and senior people in business leaving the US. Immigrants that have reached a vocational plateau in the US often return home countries to further their careers.
That stream of people leaving the US will turn into a rush for the exit.
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u/Whooptidooh Feb 20 '25
Called it!
Within this first year the US will see a brain drain they’ve never seen before. Morons.
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u/PalatinusG1 Feb 20 '25
I hope the EU steps up and invites all those scientists to move and do research in the European Union. It seems like a no brainer to me.
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u/jovn1234567890 Feb 23 '25
After graduation for my phd I'm definitely moving to Japan for a postdoc.
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u/99ProllemsBishAint1 Feb 23 '25
China and European countries would be smart to offer incentives to scientists considering moving
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u/BlueSky2777 25d ago
Scientists, teachers, and federal workers of all kinds may all be looking abroad (if it’s feasible for them). I guess getting rid of the innovators, educators, and those doing the important daily work of governing at the ground floor level is what makes American “great again”?
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u/david-wb Feb 21 '25
The scientists whining about losing DEI grants should go find a cliff a yell at the ocean.
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u/Immediate_Mud6547 Feb 19 '25
Easily replaced.
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u/ArchStanton75 Feb 19 '25
Looking at your comment history, definitely not by people like you. You also won’t lower yourself to work in harvesting. So, what is your contribution to our brave new world?
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u/Immediate_Mud6547 Feb 19 '25
None of your business, but i ask you the same question.
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u/ArchStanton75 Feb 19 '25
ELA and Social Studies education. My students come out with scholarships for their work.
You?
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u/Immediate_Mud6547 Feb 19 '25
So no doubt you’re a liberal teacher. Not surprising. If you must know, I’m a professional pilot. And a hard core Republican, so now you know. What now?
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u/ArchStanton75 Feb 19 '25
My students walk away with critical thinking skills. That’s a significant leap over anything you’ve shown in your comments. They’d run circles around you and then get bored, as I am, because talking to you feels like punching down.
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u/South-Run-4530 Feb 19 '25
Then leave? I don't see any down sides.
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u/WrathOfMogg Feb 19 '25
Bit shortsighted to cede the vast majority of tech and medical breakthroughs to other countries. This is nowhere near America first.
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u/Crafty_Principle_677 Feb 19 '25
Hope you never get a disease that could have been treated with medical research that was cut, asshole
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u/South-Run-4530 Feb 19 '25
You know there's medical research in other countries, right?
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u/Crafty_Principle_677 Feb 19 '25
Not nearly equal to the research might of the US
But hey China will benefit from what we squander so enjoy being at their mercy
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u/South-Run-4530 Feb 19 '25
Omg, you people really believe that American exceptionalism thing, don't you?
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u/Crafty_Principle_677 Feb 19 '25
American research benefits every single country. We shouldn't be cutting off our hand to spite our face is the point. It's going to set scientific research back a decade or more, at a time when we need to all be full speed ahead with progress
But you people want to drag us all back into the fucking dark ages
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u/South-Run-4530 Feb 19 '25
You're over hyping your own importance again. It's kinda awkward to watch
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u/imperabo Feb 19 '25
71% of Nobel all prizes awarded in history have been to Americans. 29% of those were immigrants. So yeah, America has been the engine of science and discovery. Looks like the future will be we're the engine of hatred and stupidity. Good job.
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u/XRotNRollX Feb 20 '25
Americans don't dominate science because they're superior, it's because the money and infrastructure are there, and if they're taken away, most countries don't have enough to pick up the slack
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u/redeggplant01 Feb 19 '25
"The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present and is gravely to be regarded." - Dwight D. Eisenhower
Science belongs in the private sector and the private sector alone where it can benefit all and not be weaponized by the State against the people who disagree
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u/Izawwlgood PhD | Neurodegeneration Feb 19 '25
Ah yes, the philanthropic and 'available for all' nature of the private sector. Big pharma, always known for it's charitable data sharing, and keeping prices low so everyone can afford life saving medicine.
Boeing switched to a shareholder profit priority and was all over the news for it's absolute failures to produce reliable craft. You trust unregulated, profit driven science?
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u/reddit455 Feb 19 '25
Science belongs in the private sector
you have a list of all of SpaceX climate related missions?
https://climate.nasa.gov/%C2%A0%C2%A0/
From the unique vantage point in space, NASA collects critical long-term observations of our changing planet.
private sector alone where it can benefit all
Pfizer and Merck just giving it away in the US?
you're saying all the private companies providing "medical science" are benefitting all?
really?
why the bullet to the head?
Key details about the man accused of killing UnitedHealthcare’s CEO
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u/JoeDoeHowell Feb 19 '25
Did you know that Viagra was originally developed to be a heart medication until they realized that boner pills were more profitable. That's what private sector research gets you, dropped heart research for boners.
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u/insanecorgiposse Feb 19 '25
Just an hour ago, my wife and I were in a hotel lobby in London at happy hour sitting next to a couple of scientists who were discussing this very topic. They mentioned that thousands of young American scientists are suddenly looking abroad to continue their research , but Trump and Musk have created so much uncertainty with funding and the general economy that European companies are not going to hire them.