r/LibertarianLeft • u/AnOwlinTheCourtyard • 7d ago
Successful Socialism
Every time a "libertarian" discusses socialism, they proudly state that no successful socialist society has existed. Now, I could ask this of the socialist subreddit and I'd probably get 50 people telling me that erm actually, The USSR and China are socialist societies worth emulating. As someone who doesn't know a thing about history, what should I read about regarding this claim?
Yes, I know the USSR increased literacy and quickly upgraded an agrarian society to an industrial one. I am asking about quality of life, civil rights, workers rights, and the status of democracy in any given country that has considered itself "socialist".
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u/SidTheShuckle 7d ago
Not exactly libertarian left but close to it: Freetown Christiania, Catalonia, Free Territory of Ukraine, Zapatistas in Chiapas, Rojava in North and East Syria, etc
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u/upchuk13 7d ago
The USSR is definitely not a socialist society worth emulating. I would never want to live in, or frankly even visit, PRC, but I understand those who do.
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u/FunkyTikiGod Libertarian Communist 6d ago
Generally Libertarian Socialists point to other examples of socialist societies rather than the USSR, which is considered a failed attempt at socialism. It lasted a long time, but lost its socialist character almost immediately, even before Stalin.
Here are examples of societies that a Libertarian Socialist would actually consider to be Socialist:
Zapatista Autonomous Municipalities (1994–present) – 30+ years
Rojava (2012–2025) – 12 years
Free Territory of Ukraine (Makhnovshchina) (1918–1921) – ~3 years
Revolutionary Catalonia (1936–1939) – ~2.5 years
Shinmin Autonomous Region (1929–1932) – ~3 years
Korean People's Association in Manchuria (1929–1931) – ~2 years
Paris Commune (1871) – ~2 months
Magonista Commune of Baja California (1911) – ~6 months
Oaxaca Commune (2006) – ~6 months
Shanghai Commune (1967) – ~1 month
As you can see, with the exception of the Zapatistas, they haven't lasted very long so far, but we believe they are more constructive experiments in socialism than centralised authoritarian states.
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u/tanhan27 6d ago
Hitterites (1528-Present) - ~500 years of anarchopacifist Christian communism. Currently supporting a population of about 50,000 in communes scattered across the Canadian Praries
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u/FunkyTikiGod Libertarian Communist 5d ago
There is a lot to admire about the Hutterites, particularly their collective ownership, welfare and mutual aid.
But I didn't include them as a libertarian socialist project since my understanding is that they aren't egalitarian in decision-making.
They operate under patriarchal and religious leadership structures, rather than any sort of direct democracy with equal empowerment and participation of everyone. It seems only married men can vote and have political power, and there is a hierarchy of authority amongst the men.
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u/tanhan27 5d ago
You are right about not being egalitarian. There are very conservative.
But I always cite them as proof of successful communism that has lasted centuries, and has never used violence or threat of violence to enforce their common ownership of the means of production. They so have other means of coercion (shunning).
Despite holding traditional patriarchal gender roles I would say they still have a lot of overlap with anarchist principals. Leadership roles are managerial in nature, and elected.
I would say that their pacifist nature is a pretty hood argument against the idea that socialism can't exist unless forced by the barrel of a gun.
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u/FunkyTikiGod Libertarian Communist 5d ago
Yeah I agree there is a lot we can learn from them about actually organising a commonly owned economy and what some of the social realities of life under communism might be like
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u/theagonyofthefeet 7d ago edited 7d ago
Chomsky said the USSR was socialist only insofar as the Bolsheviks made use of the term to legitimize their technocratic totalitarian terror state as a "people's revolution". The United States followed suit by calling the Soviet Union socialist as well but as a form of capitalist propaganda against any form of socialism as totalitarian.
Tell your "libertarian" friend that socialism can't be successful on a national scale as long as the most powerful nation in the world, the USA, keeps preventing it.
You might also ask your "libertarian" friend to list all the successful right libertarian countries that make him so proud. Even on a small town scale, right wing libertarian communities always collapse.
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u/heimeyer72 7d ago edited 7d ago
Even if you don't want to count the former USSR and China (like me), I've heard/read of several "communist/socialist" communes in the USA. It works. For years and decades.
What I have so far not heard of is a community of Libertarians.
There once was the idea of building a huge ship and build a Libertarian community on it. I srsly wonder why that fell short. (I have an idea but I think it could have worked.)
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u/ed523 7d ago
So many "libertarian" floating islands, ships, regular islands then there was that town in New Hampshire none of which went well AT ALL
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u/rubygeek socialist 7d ago
I assume the New Hampshire example you mention is this one:
How a New Hampshire libertarian utopia was foiled by bears
It'd be hilarious if it wasn't for the innocent people whose town they took over.
Screw it, I feel sorry for those people, but it's still hilarious.
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u/neutral-chaotic 5d ago
The next iteration of "Libertarian" communities (though they'll really be fiefdoms with some unelected tech bro at the top), coming to a (soon to be formally) national park near you!
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u/heimeyer72 5d ago edited 5d ago
Thanks. Looks "Libertarian" with quotes indeed.
Edit: I'll follow her - Thanks again. (This video is worrisome. Even more so considering Trump's remark about a third term.)
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u/nate2squared 7d ago
I think it is fair to acknowledge some positives that existed in the USSR, some which may have even originally came due to socialist ideals, just as it can be worth pointing out successful programmes and policies inspired by socialists in 'Western' countries. I use some of these as an example that - while not socialism in themselves - take socialist concepts and apply them in ways in which people benefit. Then I remind people that when anywhere tries to do anything more substantial that capitalist governments extinguish it violently as quickly as they can.
When it comes to socialism on a personal level I ask people about how they would organise themselves and their family and friends if they ended up on an island together, or even in a more familiar setting if they didn't have to worry about money, and they usually come up with collectively or communally managed work and all needs being met without the need for profit, then I try to build up from there.
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u/LetItBlurt 7d ago
The only instances I can think of are the municipal socialist/"sewer socialist" cities in the U.S. in the 19th and 20th centuries (Milwaukee primarily), the Zapatistas in Chiapas, and Burkina Faso under Thomas Sankara of blessed memory.
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u/pcalau12i_ 7d ago
You are asking in a "libertarian left" subreddit, which obviously are by definition people who would oppose the USSR and China.
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u/SuperDuperKing 7d ago
So the USSR falling was absolutely one of the worst things to round out the 20th century. Everyone seems to forget that it was the second world, you've heard the phrase 1st and 3rd world. There is something about the argument that the USSR wasn't socialism but make no mistake the fall of the soviet union was a huge step back AWAY from socialism. We are essentially living in a worse case scenario for the fall of the USSR ( and remember there was a democratic mandate to keep the USSR together that was blatantly ignored.)
Also there is no real debating a libertarian on this. If they are not willing to even read a little amount on socialism all you can do is own him enough and in such a way that he will want to read more.
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u/AnOwlinTheCourtyard 7d ago
So, how can I defend the validity of socialism to a person who understands it as only having caused people suffering?
It's very common for libertarians to say, "I sympathize with your ideals and agree that socialism would be ideal. However, it is not possible, and its attempts have only brought misery. The road to hell is paved with good intentions." or something obnoxious to that affect.
Now, half the time, I think they're bullshitting, but I feel like I should be able to defend against their argument.
My gut instinct is to say: because an iteration of something is failed, it can't be done in a different way? but the questions they asked, that I fail to answer, sew doubt in my convictions. I don't trust capitalism any more, but I feel like my defense of socialism is on weak ground, based on feelings entirely.
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u/SuperDuperKing 6d ago edited 6d ago
The short answer is that if people hold a position irrationally then you cant talk them out of it by definition. Now the anti-communist propaganda in America is immense. That said part of it is being consistent and pointing out actual history. Russia after the fall of the soviet union was ravaged by the United States and hobbled when they supposedly were "freed" as a quick overview read the shock doctrine by Naomi klein.
You can point out that capitalism has been verifiably worse than the worst of the USSR. But all this rests on knowledge that you and him are just not aware of so i wont pretend that it is easy.
Also you might want to delve into what you mean by socialism. That term is used in all kinds of way but overall a short summary of Marx's definition is enough. A historical progression toward production of goods and services for use-value aka making products to be used by humans and not a hook to keep profits flowing also along side worker management and control.
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u/AnOwlinTheCourtyard 5d ago
This was a helpful reply, thank you. And yes, my sister tells me all the time about the propaganda her conservative history teacher tells her class. It's depressing how many outright falsehoods pass unchallenged in public schools.
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u/theeyeeetingsheeep 6d ago
This playlist of videos by anark https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvwoHdNGq9wUbrwTZ2k8yXE5oABPBQ4NX&si=8LP1LK6PheUmqM92
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u/neutral-chaotic 5d ago edited 5d ago
Nah USSR and China committed major crimes against humanity. China is more capitalism at all costs now anyways. They abandoned the economic system (but not the crimes against humanity).
I'm a fan of the Doughnut economic model) myself (like practiced in Nordic countries).
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u/AnOwlinTheCourtyard 5d ago
I know. I think I worded my post incorrectly because everyone seems to think that I think the USSR and China are/were communist states. I'm just saying R/Socialism is full of MLs that do.
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u/Axiomantium 7d ago edited 7d ago
Kind of difficult for socialist societies to have a fair chance to develop and work when certain major world powers are always plotting to overthrow them through backing coups aimed at installing a puppet capitalist dictatorship, all of which end up doing worse than the short-lived socialist societies that preceded them but that doesn't fit into the ancop agenda.