Countries in the "Western Sphere" according to Harvard's School of International Relations Published 2017

[u/Sad-Dragonfruit-489]

[u/LualhatiDeManila]

The Philippines undergoing Westernization since 1521 thats a long ass time

[u/CoolerRon → u/LualhatiDeManila]

Fun fact: the area that is now Texas was known as the New Philippines, or Nuevas Filipinas in Spanish, during the colonial period. “Nuevas Filipinas” and “Nuevo Reino de Filipinas” were secondary names given to the area of Texas above the Medina River at the time of Domingo Ramón’s expedition of 1716.

[u/PhysicallyTender → u/CoolerRon]

Another fun fact: Philippines wanted to rename itself as Malaysia before Malaysia took that name.

[u/Bob1738 → u/CoolerRon]

I ate at a Texas Roadhouse in Manila

[u/Stock_Western3199 → u/Bob1738]

I just had Kenny Rogers Roasters in Manila.

[u/[deleted] → u/LualhatiDeManila]

Well, Filipinos don't speak Spanish, so that's a failure.

[u/ThorvaldGringou → u/[deleted]]

The US started the erradication of spanish in the island. But also, the Spanish Monarchy didn't worked as a modern state for centuries. The spanish was a mercantile and administrative language, not mandatory.

[u/befigue → u/ThorvaldGringou]

Same as in America, but America was closer so there was much more emigration there

[u/GuyLookingForPorn → u/befigue]

Also the Philippines were a literal US colony for a while.

[u/Bitter-Value-1872 → u/GuyLookingForPorn]

The actual reason for the US to turn to blatant imperialism, too. Started with the sinking of the Maine and the capture of the Spanish territories Cuba, Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Philippines in the Spanish American War; and when faced with the question of returning these places to their peoples or keeping them to expand trade, well, we now know how that went.

This was the official birth of the American Empire, and the Philippines were our crown jewel - and the unfortunate source of a great deal of training, iykwim, for our military forces during that time.

[u/ThorvaldGringou → u/befigue]

Closer? No, the US had direct state-policies to ending the use of Spanish. That and well....the genocide of Manila for the japanese empire eliminating the Spanish/Mexican descendant in the north didn't help.

[u/LualhatiDeManila → u/[deleted]]

Backwater colony waddup we couldve been trilingual but friars thought we would be too powerful

[u/invariousstates → u/LualhatiDeManila]

Well technically most of us Filipinos are trilingual since we speak English, our national language, and regional language.

[u/7fightsofaldudagga → u/invariousstates]

You could be quadrilingual then

[u/[deleted] → u/LualhatiDeManila]

Also friars couldn't get European settlers to come, so they had to import the Chinese

[u/Joseph20102011 → u/[deleted]]

Because the Americans occupied the Philippines for almost a half of the century (1898-1946) and their first order of business was to remove Spanish as a compulsory subject and medium of instruction from the primary and secondary school curricula and using Spanish as the medium for official business in the Philippine government was prohibited, so Spanish never had a chance of becoming a widely spoken first language among Filipinos in the 20th and 21st centuries.

[u/camonboy2 → u/Joseph20102011]

Imo even without americans, we would still be speaking filipino primarily.

[u/LupineChemist → u/camonboy2]

In fairness a massive amount of words in Tagalog are just Spanish.

As a Spanish speaker it's such a mindfuck to hear since it's like "I understand that word...and that one...and that one....and I still have no idea what you're saying"

[u/Obscure_Occultist → u/LupineChemist]

Same in reverse. I don't speak Spanish but I'm able to understand half of everything that's said. Like I can confidently communicate with a child in Spanish about basic topics.

[u/7fightsofaldudagga → u/Obscure_Occultist]

How would you know wich words are spanish and wich aren't?

[u/Tigfa → u/7fightsofaldudagga]

just vibes tbh

Tagalog and Spanish words have an extremely different vibe.

eg of Spanish words in tagalog:

kapitan (captain) rotonda (roundabout) universidad (university) kusina (kitchen) trabaho (work)

eg of native tagalog words:

lalaki (man) maharlika (nobility) kalayaan (freedom) pamangkin (nephew) dalawa (two)

[u/inamag1343 → u/Tigfa]

Maharlika is not a native word, it's from Sanskrit.

[u/7fightsofaldudagga → u/Tigfa]

I guess they are diferent enough to tell apart

[u/anormaldoodoo → u/Obscure_Occultist]

As someone who is Mexican who married Filipina, it is mind blowing. So many of her family members thought I was Filipino too lol

[u/[deleted] → u/Joseph20102011]

It wasn't really America's fault, since Puerto Rico is part of the US and speaks Spanish.

It was just that the Philippines had other native languages to promote and was too far from other Spanish speaking countries (and those countries didn't have enough economic prowess) for Spanish use to be sustainable.

Philippines also never had a large mestizo/European population. Instead 90% of all colonial and post-independence immigrants were Chinese 🇹🇼🇨🇳.

[u/LupineChemist → u/[deleted]]

Also, Philippines was administered from New Spain (i.e. Mexico) so it was essentially a colony of a colony.

[u/[deleted] → u/LupineChemist]

Mexico, but made in China

[u/[deleted] → u/LupineChemist]

Yes.

Fun fact: New Spain at that time also included Minnesota and even parts of Canada. That’s a pretty amazing distance.

[u/Turbulent-Act9877 → u/[deleted]]

Of course, America is never at fault, not even when they actively acted against the spanish language and the Spanish speakers in the Philippines, even bombing the old town of Manila

[u/nails_for_breakfast → u/[deleted]]

Their primary language Tagalog is highly influenced by Spanish. Many words are the same but with different spellings

[u/plzdontbmean2me → u/nails_for_breakfast]

Same with Ilocano. Ton of Spanish loan words

[u/casulmemer → u/LualhatiDeManila]

It is way more westernised compared to other SE Asian nations with the exception of SG and even the latter has a deep Chinese (tho specifically not PRC) cultural identity running through it.

[u/Anacoenosis → u/LualhatiDeManila]

I mean there are a lot of fucking islands.

[u/drewskie_drewskie → u/Anacoenosis]

Administrative nightmare for colonizers, along with the constant barage of natural disasters

[u/LualhatiDeManila → u/drewskie_drewskie]

Such a nightmare they even had the audacity to include Guam in the Philippine's ecclesiatical jurisdiction, as if getting from one island to the other is not hard enough

[u/winkingchef → u/LualhatiDeManila]

Have you been to the Philippines?
Nothing happens anywhere close to on time.

[u/y8T5JAiwaL1vEkQv]

western core sounds like a music genre

[u/KhazraShaman → u/y8T5JAiwaL1vEkQv]

For example, the soundtrack from RDR2.

[u/Bologna-Pony1776 → u/y8T5JAiwaL1vEkQv]

Western Core: its music about trucks and beer, but it also has double base drumming and death growls.

[u/Toruviel_]

> Be Roman Catholic for 1050 years
> have latin script

>still be not considered as western core

[u/stoic_insults → u/Toruviel_]

sorry pawel

[u/piskle_kvicaly → u/stoic_insults]

Username checks out.

[u/[deleted] → u/Toruviel_]

Appearantly one of the educational centres of medieval European civilisation and former imperial seat of Holy Roman Empire (Czechia) is less Western than Costa Rica, Venezuela and Paraguay.

[u/el_grort → u/[deleted]]

It's an American model, they tend to have weird oversights. Huntington's model for dividing the world into 'civilizations' had some glaring, gaping holes in it which were clearly born from what side of the Atlantic the model had been developed on (like binging Greece in with Russia because they were Orthodox, or hilarious thinking the Protestants and Catholics were a totally harmonious and aligned group to try and construct a fairly tortured definition of 'Wester Christendom'), and I expect this is no different. At least this one actually acknowledged South America and Africa existing, I suppose.

[u/nottiredandtorn → u/Toruviel_]

Yeah, if people can't use western in a way that makes sense they should stop using it and find another word that says what they really mean.

[u/makedaddyfart → u/nottiredandtorn]

The map looks to be western sphere in terms of geopolitics rather than history or culture

[u/Disastrous_Factor_18 → u/makedaddyfart]

By that metric Czechia should definitely be in the core along with the Baltics. Japan and South Korea should definitely be in the periphery and not developing.

[u/Engineer-intraining → u/Toruviel_]

Having to be a Soviet puppet will do that to you

[u/Toruviel_ → u/Engineer-intraining]

Between 1610-1613 Russia was our puppet, mark it as western core as well

[u/OkGear4296 → u/Toruviel_]

The worst thing is that Greece is considered Western Core in this insane map. How are the Orthodoxiest of the Eastern Orthodox... western when the Poles and Bohemians aren't!?

[u/Agitated-Airline6760]

How is Cuba "Western Periphery"? OK, it's geographically close to US but that's about it.

EDIT: This was published by Harvard's School of International Relations. This is not about cultural ranking or how Cuba is more Greco-Roman legal/philosophical frameworks than Japan or South Korea.

[u/FranFer_ → u/Agitated-Airline6760]

Yeah, the idea that Cuba is "Wester Periphery" but Japan is "Undergoing westernization" is wild

[u/BrodysBootlegs → u/FranFer_]

There's a difference between culturally western (Cuba is, Japan isn't) and geopolitically western (Japan is, Cuba isn't). 

There's significant overlap between the 2, but it isn't 100%. The US is western under both definitions, China is non western under both. 

But there are also a bunch of countries that are western in one of those 2 senses but not in the other, and the problem with this map is it doesn't seem to have any consistency in terms of whether those countries are being judged culturally or geopolitically. 

[u/[deleted] → u/BrodysBootlegs]

There's no clear definition of culturally western. Serbia is much closer culturally to Greece than the US is.

Some of the decisions were clearly made on geopolitical grounds (hence Armenia and Moldova not getting included as they were under Russian influence at the time). And geopolitical changes can happen from one day to another, as in the case of Moldova, (or Cuba or Venezuela in the other direction) so talking about "undergoing westernization" makes little sense.

[u/FuckLuigiCadorna → u/[deleted]]

I mean Spain is certainly Western and Cubans are a Spanish speaking Spanish colony offshoot, like how America is Anglo historically.

[u/[deleted] → u/FuckLuigiCadorna]

The issue is not Cuba specifically. It's that you can make a case either way for 20-30 countries at least.

I don't want to be too harsh as I don't see the context, but the whole concept seems anarchronistic. A mix of 90s neoliberalism conflating capitalism and democracy with a dash of 19th century imperialism.

[u/farteagle → u/[deleted]]

Yes, I imagine the source on this is just like one person’s work. This is not how the terms Western or core & periphery are used by most in the field of IR. This is just a dumb map likely taken out of context to trigger engagement.

[u/mutual_raid → u/BrodysBootlegs]

this is all so, so dumb.

[u/[deleted] → u/FranFer_]

Cuba speaks Spanish and is culturally close to Latin America. Japan has its own unique culture and language. I don't think it's surprising that Cuba is considered more culturally Western than Japan.

Of course, political alignment is a different matter.

[u/lordm30 → u/[deleted]]

I feel more context is required in these posts. When I read western sphere, I was automatically thinking about western political sphere, not western sphere in a cultural context (whatever that means).

[u/Chanan-Ben-Zev → u/lordm30]

That they have Israel as "Western core" but Poland and other post-Soviet countries as "Western periphery" makes no sense if it's about a "cultural context."

[u/lordm30 → u/Chanan-Ben-Zev]

I agree, all EU countries are by definition western sphere.

[u/InteractionWide3369 → u/lordm30]

The Western European cultural sphere is basically Greek, Latin and Germanic culture, that's what shaped Western Europe.

[u/Savings_Draw_6561 → u/FranFer_]

Because Japan is very attached to its own culture

[u/OldManLaugh → u/Savings_Draw_6561]

Yeah, the Japan one does make sense. After all, it started westernising in the 1800s whilst Europe has had 2500 years of practice, and the people who live in the US took that culture with them from Europe.

[u/Wood-Kern → u/FranFer_]

Why? Do you think that Japan is a lot more western than Cuba? Maybe you are right, but that doesn't seem obvious to me at all.

[u/FranFer_ → u/Wood-Kern]

I guess it really depends on what we mean by "westernized"

[u/BotherTight618 → u/FranFer_]

Why Bolivia, Peru, and Central America considered western periphery? This map is confusing.

[u/TheJeyK → u/BotherTight618]

This is me taking a guess, but I would say its because those have a culture with more of an amerindian influence compared to the others in latinamerica.

[u/[deleted] → u/FranFer_]

Its about culture, average cuban culture has a lot of spanish culture, also chracter and temperament, a cuban from Miami is far more western than East asians will ever be

[u/IIITommylomIII → u/Agitated-Airline6760]

It seems like this map still takes into account Russias old sphere of influence (Poland, Ukraine, Cuba, Baltic States, etc). Which is dumb because each country has moved past that.

[u/piskle_kvicaly → u/IIITommylomIII]

(... excepting Russia)

[u/msleepd → u/Agitated-Airline6760]

Western refers to Western Europe. As a Spanish-speaking former colony of Spain with very little influence from the the native population, it’s decidedly western.

Before anyone mentions the Philippines, it was a Spanish colony but retained significantly less (other than religion) Spanish influence than American Spanish colonies.

[u/tomtheidiot543219 → u/msleepd]

Why are people downvoting you ,youre literally correct,Cuba was the last American colony of the Spanish Empire and a lot of immigrants from Spain settled there which is why Cuba is like 64% White,which is also why most of the Cuban diaspora in US states like Florida are rich and White.

[u/msleepd → u/tomtheidiot543219]

Because this is Reddit.

[u/Daugama → u/Agitated-Airline6760]

I imagine apart from being socialist in government is culturally western

[u/tomtheidiot543219 → u/Daugama]

The concept of Socialism was introduced by a German guy,and Germany is a Western country.....

Many Western European countries have socialist elements within their economic systems,Americans and people from other Anglo Saxon countries have a really skewed interpretation of what is western and what isnt

[u/Daugama → u/tomtheidiot543219]

I'm not American.

In case you're referring to Karl Marx, he didn't invented socialism, the term existed for centuries way before his birth, and some consider it came from both French and English philosophers like the Utopian socialist.

I do agree that being socialist on itself do not precludes a government from being "western". I mean that most Western coutries have as of today different political systems and values (free market economy, multi-party elections, etc)

[u/More_Particular684 → u/Agitated-Airline6760]

Can we appreciate how they put Venezuela as a Western core nation? Apparently a Catholic, full NATO/EU member country like Czechia is less Westerner than a planned economy with political ties with Russia and China

[u/woodsred → u/Agitated-Airline6760]

They also speak a Western language, are a majority-white former Western colony, and have at least as Western a food culture as most other countries in the Americas. Their art and music are decidedly Western as well. "Western periphery" only really works if you consider Communism to be divorced from Western culture, which is debatable given that it was invented in Germany and England. In a geopolitical sense they are Western periphery due to the alignments of the last ~60 years, but ethnically and culturally they are about as post-colonial Western as it gets even though the country is communist.

[u/Soviet_Russia321 → u/woodsred]

I agree. This entire map just screams Cold War politics, but dressed up in academic language.

[u/this_moi → u/Agitated-Airline6760]

Harvard does not have a School of International Relations. I have no idea what the OP is referring to.

[u/theprez98]

2017 is forever ago in regards to international relations.

[u/11160704]

I'd say Moldova is more westernised than Azerbaijan.

[u/piskle_kvicaly → u/11160704]

I'd even go so far to say this map doesn't make much sense.

[u/jxmxk → u/11160704]

I would say that the geniuses at Harvard took one look at Transnistria and decided Moldova shouldn’t count as Westernised. Azerbaijan is probably only thrown in because of their relations with Turkey, who is in NATO.

[u/kapsama → u/jxmxk]

You'd be wrong because the West began cultivating relations for Azerbaijan's gas before Turkey and Azerbaijan got as close as they are now.

[u/IncidentHead8129]

“Western core” and “undergoing westernization” sound like the spread of a virus lol

[u/7fightsofaldudagga → u/IncidentHead8129]

It is

[u/Vhermithrax]

Well, you can easily guess it's American, based on Brazil, Venezuela and Israel being Western Core, but Poland, Czechia and the Baltic States are only refered to as "Western Periphery"

[u/[deleted] → u/Vhermithrax]

Israel. The middle west.

[u/colthesecond → u/[deleted]]

Israel is in the middle of everything because kfar saba is the center of the universe

[u/auhddndndnfbfbsnnakf → u/colthesecond]

Don’t you disrespect Petah Tikva like that

[u/TheRealPTR → u/[deleted]]

The source of Israeli political tradition is East-Central Europe. The leading theorist of Zionism, Teodor Herzl, was a Hungarian Jew. David Ben-Gurion was born in Poland, Golda Mair in Kyiv; Menachem Begin was a former Polish Army officer. The Israeli parliament is organised more like Polish or Hungarian than British or French. There is a strong presence of conservatives and, religious politicians, etc. Israeli politics works more like in Slovakia than in Lebanon or Italy ;-)

[u/Bottleofcintra → u/TheRealPTR]

But somehow the actual East-Central Europe and the countries you mention (Poland, Hungary, Slovakia) are not considered "Core Western".

[u/[deleted] → u/Vhermithrax]

Hardly an American map, most people in the US believe Latin America to be non-western

[u/gRod805 → u/[deleted]]

Latin America is more like Europe than the US is to Europe

[u/Astralesean → u/Vhermithrax]

Brazil feels more western than baltic states tbh, only much poorer 

[u/gRod805 → u/Astralesean]

Brazil is the most similar country to the US that I've been to.

[u/Dramatic-Border3549 → u/gRod805]

As a brazilian I feel offended

[u/Quicksilver1964 → u/gRod805]

Don't know if this is a compliment or not

[u/Oujii → u/Quicksilver1964]

It’s not

[u/CremousDelight → u/gRod805]

US's poorer cousin

[u/[deleted]]

Mexicans learning they are part of the Western Core while Guatemalans are only in the Western Periphery

[u/BSpino]

"Created with Mapchart.net", oh great.

Can someone with better google-fu than me, find the source? Is there even one?

Only finding shitty reddit-posts.

[u/this_moi → u/BSpino]

No source that I can find. The fact that Harvard School of International Relations doesn't exist is probably not helping with that.

[u/KingKohishi]

Poland, Czechia, Estonia are not in the Western Core but Colombia and Venezuela are. I think I don't respect Harvard's definition of the West.

[u/MB4050 → u/KingKohishi]

I understand Venezuela, but why don't you think Colombia should be? Isn't it very anti-bolivarist and capitalist, or did something change recently and I missed it?

[u/Enjoying_A_Meal → u/MB4050]

Latin America was colonized mainly by the Spanish and Portuguese before the USA was a thing. We're talking 1500's. If you walk around in major cities, the buildings are much more reminiscent of Europe than say, Asian or Arabic countries. They are very much "Western" in terms of "culture," just with some native culture blended into it.

[u/VFacure_ → u/Enjoying_A_Meal]

Spanish Latin America had universities, the core institution of western education, before most of Eastern Europe.

[u/PanLasu → u/VFacure_]

But we are talking about Poland and the Czech Republic, which are in Central Europe and considered western peripheries not core. Our universities date back to the 14th century.

[u/Paciorr → u/VFacure_]

Poland and Czechia had universities before Americas were even discovered. Jagiellonian university is 660 years old. For example it's even older than Heidelberg University, the oldest one in Germany. What are you even talking about man.

[u/deziom → u/VFacure_]

What a bullshit xD. Jagiellonian University of Poland was founded in 1364. It speaks for itself. Please stop spreading false information.

[u/EntertainmentIll8436 → u/MB4050]

Why Venezuela wouldn't be western? 25 years of whatever the hell this is won't really change the western ideas that founding fathers like Francisco de Miranda or Simon Bolivar had during the independence war, the entire XX century of good relations and adaptation of western ideals, also the 200-300 years of western culturen the spaniards gave during colonization.

And during the last 25 years of anti-west mentality, there is a big debate about at what point it became a command by force and not a sentiment (my guess is 2013)

[u/nepia → u/EntertainmentIll8436]

OP is assuming that being westerners means a government pro USA. Venezuela is 100% western culture.

[u/hadapurpura → u/KingKohishi]

Colombia is fully western. It’s culture, religion, political institutions, everything actually.

[u/lejonhjerta → u/hadapurpura]

Have you been to Estonia? It's basically finland.

[u/[deleted] → u/hadapurpura]

But Serbia and Bosnia aren't? But Macedonia is?

This is the dumbest map i've seen in a while

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Oh so Turkey isn't muslim? Aight

Also

little Russia

lol

[u/urru4 → u/[deleted]]

Turkey is also colored as “western periphery” in the map, so idk what your point is.

[u/anweisz → u/[deleted]]

Turkey’s nato is why. Map is combining the cultural and political definitions into one sphere.

[u/ImTheVayne → u/KingKohishi]

Nonsense. Poland, Czechia and Estonia are western countries.

[u/HomestarRunnerdotnet → u/ImTheVayne]

Not to mention Slovenia, Croatia and Montenegro

[u/150Disciplinee → u/KingKohishi]

Colombia is western wtf are you talking about

[u/ForeignWin9265 → u/KingKohishi]

Colombian here, wtf are you talking about

[u/farteagle → u/ForeignWin9265]

I have a feeling they meant Cuba but wrote the wrong C country

[u/AideSuspicious3675 → u/KingKohishi]

Don't sugar coated! 

Just write that us Colombians cannot be part of the west cause we are broke and of a humble color

[u/adlittle → u/KingKohishi]

So, what's your definition of "The West?" Fully white?

[u/arturocan → u/adlittle]

Based on several of their comments.

• Pale white
• Not poor
• Needs to have military/political beef with Russia.

[u/RiverOfSand → u/adlittle]

Me and my rich buddies

[u/Jh0nRyuzak1 → u/KingKohishi]

Lmao, Colombia has a European language, it's Catholic, Western Laws, heritage from Europe, Capitalist and Liberal, Universities and institutions Wtf are you talking about?

[u/Timauris]

The whole concept of the "West" is questionable I think.

[u/Jumpy-Foundation-405 → u/Timauris]

It's more or less just another word of Nato or US and allies.

[u/ViscountBurrito → u/Jumpy-Foundation-405]

That’s usually my assumption for the definition, but that’s clearly not what this map is showing. There are NATO countries with the same color as Cuba, while Venezuela counts as “core”!

I have no idea what possible definition would lead to these colors.

[u/LittleSchwein1234 → u/Timauris]

That's the problem, the definition of what constitutes the West changes based on what you're talking about, who you're talking to, who is talking about it, etc. It's a term with no clear definition nor boundary.

[u/woah_m8 → u/Timauris]

It’s propaganda that made its way on to academics.

[u/Meta_Digital → u/Timauris]

It's the "white" of geopolitics.

A metaphysical supremacist concept designed to justify exploitative power dynamics..

[u/Cakeo → u/Meta_Digital]

Frankly the only way I see the West used in conversation is by people looking to shift blame for their own countries issues.

[u/reyhysterio]

Philippines is undergoing westernization but malaysia and Singapore aren't?

🤔

[u/Sound_Saracen → u/reyhysterio]

I'm more shocked about Singapore tbh.

[u/Nice_Boss776 → u/Sound_Saracen]

Though the economic and political system are British, Singapore is more Chinese, Malay and Indian than being British. Lee Kwan Yew forced Singaporeans to be British even though some of them dont want to, especially the elders.

[u/BoldKenobi → u/Nice_Boss776]

Singapore feels way more western than Taiwan or Japan

[u/littlegipply → u/reyhysterio]

Might have to do with American imperialism there in the early 20th century

[u/Nice_Boss776 → u/littlegipply]

Yes Filipinos in the Philippines love America much more than the real Americans.

[u/BoldKenobi → u/Nice_Boss776]

Pretty sure Filipinos love everyone in general, literally the most happy and cheerful people I ever met

[u/schwulquarz → u/reyhysterio]

Several centuries under Spanish and then American rule. They're definitely more westernised than their neighbours. They're the only majority Christian nation in that region.

[u/inamag1343 → u/schwulquarz]

Timor-Leste?

[u/ltgenspartan → u/reyhysterio]

Having visited the Philippines last month, there definitely is a strong western feel to it. Aside from HDI not being quite as high, I never really felt culture shocked (only in little amounts) and out of place, even as a white guy from the US.

[u/WubbaLubba15 → u/reyhysterio]

Malaysia is an authoritarian regime disguised as democracy due to religious influence. The Philippines, despite having a very strong Roman Catholic attachment, is actually more socially progressive and has been Asia's most gender-equal country for many consecutive years. Its culture is also more inclined towards Hispanic/American.

[u/darksugarfairy]

I like how Serbia and Bosnia are surrounded by "Western countries" but not being western themselves despite there being absolutely no cultural, and almost not even language difference, between all former Yugoslavian countries.

It's literally impossible that Montenegro, North Macedonia and Croatia are "Western," but Serbia and Bosnia are not

It's like saying the US is, but Canada isn't lol

[u/osloverano]

how is poland not fully western but paraguay is?

[u/RandyClaggett]

Aren't South Africa and Turkey more like undergoing de-westernization ?

[u/jjw1998 → u/RandyClaggett]

This map is from 2017, prior that point Turkey had been trying to engage with the EU in a pivot towards Europe. I imagine Turkey would be different if they did the map from today

[u/FinnBalur1]

They paid hundreds of thousands at Harvard to learn this? I’d want a refund

[u/Jack_Kegan → u/FinnBalur1]

That’s not how it works ahahah

[u/Cornelius005 → u/FinnBalur1]

They are paying for the networking. What they actually learn there is not exactly better than any other major American university.

[u/GoPhinessGo]

Fuck the Guyanas I guess

[u/KindRange9697]

Poland being in the periphery and Venezuela being core is some wild shit

[u/randomnese]

I tried to find the source of this map but couldn't find one. The "Created with mapchart.net" in the bottom right corner also doesn't inspire confidence that this came from a scholarly article. Can someone actually drop the source of this?

Another reason why I'm skeptical: Harvard doesn't have a "School of International Relations". International Relations is only offered at the Bachelors of Liberal Arts or Masters of Liberal Arts level, both of which are part of the school of continuing education (so not affiliated with Harvard College, with GSAS, or with the Kennedy School of Government).

[u/akimihime]

Cringe map bro

[u/windchill94]

Their map makes no sense.

[u/leobutters]

Shit rage bait map tbh

[u/Elesraro]

Everyone in the EU and NATO should be "the Western core".

The Balkans, The Americas, and Switzerland are "Western".

Moldova, Armenia, Georgia, Ukraine, Israel, and South Africa are "Western adjacent".

The Philippines, Japan, Singapore, Taiwan and South Korea are "Westernized East Asia".

Australia and New Zealand are "Westernized Oceania".

[u/Amadex → u/Elesraro]

The Philippines, Japan, Singapore, Taiwan and South Korea are "Westernized East Asia"

I'm Korean I wouldn't say we are "westernized", we still view the world mostly through a confucian mindset, in fact many of us feel like we're the last true confucian coutry (more than China). Even our internet is quite separate because we use different social network services (unlike most of the rest of the world).

Westernization is very superficial and may only seem to be for people who do not know the country. Of course we are moving to globalization, but then many other countries on the map like India are doing that too.

I would say only the Phillipines among the countries you cited are westernized for asia, I think that they are mostly catholics, they have official western language, they have western names. Even from me when I see this country they don't seem asian at all, they make me think of south america.

[u/Tofu_Bo]

The Philippines are still undergoing westernization?

[u/Seb0rn]

The word has lost all meaning at this point.

[u/Ban_Wizard]

Harvard definitely does not have the clout it used to

[u/kiaraliz53 → u/[deleted]]

There kinda is. It's a program. https://www.harvard.edu/programs/international-relations/ and https://www.gov.harvard.edu/graduate/programs-of-study/international-relations/

[u/pbacon33 → u/kiaraliz53]

The first link is to Harvard’s extension school aka their online education program. That has a concentration in IR.

The second link is to Harvard’s grad program, with a sub concentration of IR in the government department. If you’re an undergrad at Harvard you would get a AB in government. Same if you did a IR focused PhD, you’d get a PhD in government.

These are also separate from the public policy school, the Kennedy school of government. But there is only a sub field for study of international relations there - it’s not really a “school of international relations.”

I still want to find the source of this map because “Harvard School of International Relations” does not exist.

[u/ViscountBurrito]

What definition can they possibly be using here? It’s clearly not a political/NATO-focused one. Maybe it’s a cultural one, but it’s odd to have Colombia and Venezuela on one side and Ecuador, Peru, and Bolivia on the other. Maybe it’s some function of the prominence of indigenous populations vs. Spanish-influenced ones, but I don’t think Ecuador has a particularly large indigenous population, and Cuba certainly doesn’t.

[u/danielpernambucano → u/ViscountBurrito]

Ecuador has a bigger indigenous population than Brazil, in absolute numbers, I'm not joking.

[u/jorgejhms → u/ViscountBurrito]

Peru, Ecuador and Bolivia were part of the Incan Empire and have until this day bigger indegenous population than nearby countries.

[u/LisunaLefti → u/ViscountBurrito]

Ecuador has a pretty large indigenous population.

[u/RonJohnJr → u/ViscountBurrito]

Maybe it’s some function of the prominence of indigenous populations vs. Spanish-influenced ones, 

That's what it has to be. Map is certainly imperfect, though.

[u/Abject_Role_5066]

Why is South Africa undergoing westernization?

[u/Common_Name3475 → u/Abject_Role_5066]

Many young Black South Africans just speak to each other in English, as opposed to isiZulu, isiXhosa, Sesotho, Setswana, etc.

[u/BlackSebbeth1]

Spanish empire, British Empire and American Empire

[u/cesarevilma]

How is Poland less Western then Brazil?

[u/frfl55]

How's Brazil more western than Poland or the czech republic?

[u/Ebrundle]

This map is TERRIBLE lol.

[u/[deleted]]

Now let us have a debate on how much does your subjective definition of Westerness conform to mine.

[u/TevisLA]

Surprised there aren’t more in Africa. And South Africa should be western periphery already.

[u/skkkkkt → u/TevisLA]

There's a blackness/Christianity ratio that should be respected

Edit: the skin color has more priority

[u/Maelorus]

Country that was a part of Germany for twice as long as the USA has existed is a periphery?

Somebody should tell Harvard's school of international relations that the Cold war ended over 30 years ago.

[u/F1eshWound]

Brazil is more western than Poland?

[u/Salty_Olive1995 → u/F1eshWound]

Politically? No, Socially? Definitely... I've been to both countries (I'm from Belgium) and for me Brazil is literally US but with more friendly people, poorer and more violent... While in Poland you can definitely feel the coldness and a more conservative Eastern European mindset, which is a very similar experience I had in Russia and Baltics

[u/Lilith_87 → u/Salty_Olive1995]

You define western by peoples temperament which is wrong. By that definition also all Nordic countries are not western as they are not friendly - it has nothing to do with being western unless you define US as the basis for being western. And if you believe being conservative is also excluding part then Italy and Spain, Portugal which are quite conservative countries should not be defined as western.

[u/DecisiveVictory]

The Baltic States and places like Czechia and Poland are more Western than most of these Latin American countries or South Africa.

Stable democracies, free market, a lot of shared cultural values.

[u/ImTheVayne → u/DecisiveVictory]

Estonia has gay marriage and is a part of NATO+EU. If that is not western I have no idea what is lol.

[u/azhder]

The only summary that explains this map is: Harvard's imperialistic outlook on the world in 2017

[u/Bob_Spud]

The Harvard School of International Relations doesn't understand the difference between "Modernization" and "Westernization"

I would never think of Japan, Korea, Taiwan and the Philippines and South Africa undergoing "westernization" its all about modernization.

[u/Bapistu-the-First]

Heavily flawed map. I guess it all depends in what context Western here means. To not put Poland, Czechia or the Baltics in Western Core tough is ludicrous no matter what context is meant.

[u/fabiomb]

why french guyana is not western here? it´s France! (just a little fix there 😋)

[u/IllEffectLii]

I like it, those Harvard guys really solved it

[u/Traditional-Storm-62]

for the record: there is no agreement on that so, for example, when Russia says "the West" they basically never mean Brazil
especially since Brazil is in BRICS and so is South Africa

I guess in geopolitics "the West" is much smaller than in legal or linguistic discussion

[u/pbacon33]

There is no such thing as the “Harvard School of International Relations.”