Is Marx’s theory of alienation still relevant today?

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u/plinkoelchako 1d ago

Alienated labor has nothing to do with the specific type of labor. In fact, it has existed before the industrial revolution, across all class society, and will continue to exist as long as we have classes. Wage labor is wage labor, the worker still sells off portions of their life, relinquishes their concious life activity because they are forced to by threat of homelessness, starvation etc. Estrangement will continue to exist until the worker takes possession of their own life activity, until the capital they produce is no longer a hostile and alien entity, until they are able to freely develop their faculties, for the sake of becoming a more well rounded person itself

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u/black_out_sober 1d ago

The alienation from the means of production is now, frankly, complete. We have traded away our labour (body), ideas (rational mind), and our emotions (EQ - as it is now defined and not as an original Marxist critique of the service industry).

We have truly become homo economicus as Foucault envisioned.

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u/AnSoc_Punk 1d ago

Absolutely, now moreso than when Marx had written about it. It is, in my opinion, compounded by the atomization of the proletariat resulting from neoliberal Reagan era individualism

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u/D-A-C 1d ago

I'm wondering about the ways in which Marx's theory of alienation is relevant in the contemporary era, since Marx spoke predominantly in terms of factory/industrial production which is not as directly applicable anymore in the West.

So follow that thread?

Where have the factories gone ... how has alienation moved to a global phenomenon in which the former industrailized West outsourced all its problems with pollution and workers rights, for example, to former colonies and transitioned old problems into a new set of material conditions ... but kept the same problems, now on a global scale.

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u/Infamous-Associate65 1d ago

Still relevant & in fact a major theme of a hit TV series (Severance). Alienation from labor is real whether you work in a factory, office, retail, you name it. I believe the pandemic of five years ago helped people realize this more.

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u/yo_soy_soja 23h ago

Yeah, /u/Scented-apprentice, this is why Severance is blowing up and resonating with people. White collar alienation is very much a thing in the imperial core. How many office monkeys (myself included) push numbers around on computers with little or no connection to the tangible impact of our work?

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u/Infamous-Associate65 22h ago

💯 that's why it's a big hit & in the zeitgeist nowadays, lots of us can relate to it for sure, taking work alienation to literal extremes. I don't get the 170 characters requirement on here

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u/JohnWilsonWSWS 1d ago

The appearance forms of capitalism have changed. The process of extracting surplus value from the working class to turn into capital through the cycle of money-to-commodity-to-money has not changed.

FYI

One hundred and fifty years ago, Marx explained that as the market became increasing autonomous, standing like an alien force over every individual, efforts inevitably emerged to overcome that autonomy. -

"[I]nstitutions emerge whereby each individual can acquire information about the activity of all others and attempt to adjust his own accordingly, e.g. lists of current prices, rates of exchange, interconnections between those active in commerce through the mails, telegraphs etc. (the means of communication must grow at the same time.) This means that, although the total supply and demand are independent of the actions of each individual, everyone attempts to inform himself about them, and this knowledge then reacts back in practice on the total supply and demand. Although on the given standpoint, alienation is not overcome by these means, nevertheless relations and connections are introduced thereby which include the possibility of suspending the old standpoint."

[emphasis added]

QUOTE IN The World Economic Crisis: A Marxist Analysis - (Nick Beams, 2008, World Socialist Web Site)
SOURCE OF MARX QUOTE : Economic Manuscripts: Grundrisse: Notebook I – The Chapter on Money (Marx, 1857)

FWIW:

For ~120 years capitalists and their reformist supporters have claimed the capitalism has overcome the types of predatory and cruel exploitation that Engels wrote about in Conditions of the Working-Class in England (Engels, 1845) and was documented by government reports in the 1840s to 1860s which Marx then included in Capital Volume 1.

But those forms of exploitation never disappeared from the colonies or oppressed nations and now the decline in the rate of profit and the crisis of imperialism means, despite the astonishing advances in the productivity of labor, those conditions must be brought back everywhere to serve the needs of production-for-profit and the interests of the capitalist class.

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u/lifeiz2short23 1d ago

Yes, it is, more than ever. I will also argue that Marx's theory of alienation is the premise of his later critique of value. English is not my first langage so I can not properly develop my point of view but it is apparent if you read someone like Postone.

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u/Brave_Philosophy7251 1d ago

This is one of the aspects about Marx's work that I have personally experienced to the largest extent. Alienation, even in a lot of considered "prestigious" jobs is more real than ever. I have nor been in the labor market for too long, around 6 years now, but it is crazy of how, even in academia, you see alienation due to the comoditization of scientific research

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u/Fancy-Pickle4199 1d ago

Yes! Though it's a more complex form of alienation.

I'd argue we've alienated ourselves from being human beings. It still comes out in weird ways. I've had the luck of working in a few different countries and I find the Western mindset increasingly hard to live with. It's oddly childish, disconnected and reactive. I think it's been amplified by late capitalism's obsession with simplification (there's so many bullshit jobs and I constantly encounter people getting paid a ton for doing fuck all real, it's all services not trades or professions). I'll add as well I think the tech broligarchs have a bit of a Star Trek fantasy going on. I can't see them quitting until they've ruined the planet in their efforts to achieve the ultimate in alienation, leaving planet earth).

Taking up meditation helped me realise how alienated from my 'self' I was. Even the body is a market place.

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u/M-Ejle 1d ago

Simply answered in everyday language: Why else do jobs provide many other benefits on top of salaries? Why does your boss pretend to be your friend? Why do companies claim to provide you with a social circle? Why is there the strange and stupid concept of a career? Why is all that required to make you believe that waking up in the morning to go to this prison until evening is a good thing for you?

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u/InternationalFig400 1d ago

Freddy Perlman provides the definitive answer:

Start quote

The reified labor of capitalist society, the abstract, homogeneous labor-power which is bought by the capitalist for a price, is crystallized, congealed in commodities which are appropriated by the capitalist and sold on the market. The laborer literally alienates, estranges his creative power, he sells it. Since creative power refers to an individual's conscious participation in the shaping of his [or her] material environment, since the power to decide is at the root of creation, it would be more accurate to say that creative power simply does not exist for for the hired worker in capitalist society. It is precisely this power to shape his [or her] circumstances that the laborer sells to the capitalist; it is precisely this power which is appropriated by the capitalist, not only in the form of the homogeneous labor-time which he buys for a price, but also in the form of the abstract labor which is congealed in commodities. This reified labor, this abstract labor which is crystallized, congealed in commodities, "acquires a given social form" in capitalist society, namely the form of value. Thus Marx "makes 'form of value' the subject of his examination, namely value as the social form of the product of labor--the form which the classical economists took for granted..." (Rubin, p. 112). Thus, through the theory of commodity fetishism, the concept of reified labor becomes the link between the theory of alienation in the Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844 and the theory of the value in Capital.

end quote

italics original, bold added

Freddy Perlman, "Introduction: Commodity Fetishism", in II Rubin, "Essays On Marx's Theory of Value", Montreal: Black Rose Books, 1973: 24.

Commodity fetishism is considered a "special form of alienation".....Marx used the notion of alienation in a very scant way in "Capital", as there were only several quoted instances of its use.

Perlman HAD to make/explain the shift in the use of alienation to the notion of "reified labour" in order to put it on more scientific footing for Rubin's and Marx's analysis.

Hope this helps.

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u/thefriendlyhacker 1d ago

Since this is a university project, I recommend the recent book, "Embracing Alienation: Why We Shouldn't Try to Find Ourselves" by Todd McGowan, a Marxist author. I would also look into more of his work since it's nice to follow Marxist authors that work in the present day

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u/OnionMesh 2h ago

I wouldn’t say McGowan is a Marxist. He likes Marx’s critique of political economy, but isn’t really that fond of Marx as a political thinker. I think he’s even said he identifies as a “political liberal.” He falls into the Lacanian-Hegelian / Psychoanalytic German Idealism crowd of academics that primarily study philosophy and media.

Also, from what I’ve read of Embracing Alienation: if anything, this book is a critique of Marx; whereas Marx (at least, in 1844) wants to overcome alienation, McGowan thinks alienation is / can be a good thing. I think he’s also said that “in [his] ideal society, there would be more alienation.”

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u/honeybee2894 15h ago

Man we are so incredibly alienated. We are at least a step removed from the vast majority of life in consumer culture. And most of our commerce comes from factories/industrial production - I think you know this and have been alienated from it. What does alienation mean to you? Answering this question will clarify your point of view.

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u/evangainspower 7h ago

Myself and most people I know have been alienated from aspects of jobs we've had our entire working lives. Learning about Marx's theory only helped myself and others I know understand it better.

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u/True-Sock-5261 1d ago

I think Emile Durkheim's conceptualization of Anomie mixed is more applicable today than Marx's concepts of alienation or more specifically it's a more relative understanding of how that plays out in capitalism and especially late capitalism.

In feudalism the serf might have internalized "failure" to some degree but the power dynamic wasn't nearly as obscured.

With anomie the power still lies with the ownership of capital but when people are crushed by that exploitation they often blame themselves instead of the people crushing them.

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u/Henry-1917 17h ago

Hmm, that sounds interesting. I'm not familiar with Durkheim. Could you please explain?

Yeah I think alienation is just deeper now than ever, but I'm not completely sure

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u/True-Sock-5261 6h ago

I'd recommend reading Raymond Aron's work "Main Currents in Sociological Thought Vol. 2" and Lewis Cozer's "Masters of Sociological Thought" and "Sociological Theory: A Book of Readings"

Both authors do a good in depth overview of Durkheim's positions.

Then read "Suicide" by Durkheim of you want a primary source.

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u/CalligrapherOwn4829 1d ago

I think you're misunderstanding Marx's notion of alienation, which describes a social relationship rather than a feeling.

When Marx talks about alienation, he is looking at the way that people perform labour where (a) the product is expropriated from them (ie the stuff you do at work belongs to your boss, not to you), and (b) subsequently, one confronts the product of labour as a foreign power over them (the more workers work, the more power capitalists have over them).

Whether you work in a factory, a McDonald's, a grocery store, or whatever job alienation remains as a defining characteristic of waged labour under capitalism.

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u/Scented-apprentice 1d ago

I get why you might think that, especially since alienation has now become a somewhat empty formula ranging across the spectrum of human unhappiness. But you're also forgetting the other 2 parts of Marx's alienation which is Alienation from Species-Being and Alienation from Other Humans which necessarily includes social relationships and emotion.

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u/CalligrapherOwn4829 1d ago

I think Marx's point is that this relationship, in which humans are alienated from their life activity is one and the same as our alienation from our species-being, ie our collective self-directed creative capacities. This also produces alienation from other people through the mediation of human relationships by the commodity form, in which human relationships take on the apparent character of relationships between things.

It's not that these things don't have subjective and emotional implications (or that these implications aren't important to look at) it's just that when Marx is looking at alienation he's looking at the social relationships of production in which people are estranged, rather than the subjective experience of this estrangement. And it wasn't about how factory work is specifically shitty, it was about wage labour and the commodity form.

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u/rupaul1993 1d ago

as a warehouse Logistics worker I don't think my experience is that different. I know people who've gotten in early on a startup and received stock options though. I'm sure they felt less alienated. I guess it depends on a variety of things ultimately class position. If we're heading towards rentier capitalism with more asset consolidation doesn't that mean more people are alienated from their means of living?

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u/emteedub 1d ago edited 1d ago

Marx spoke predominantly in terms of factory/industrial production which is not as directly applicable anymore in the West.

I can see what could be a massive slice of hope, if you think outside the box with me for a second here.

I think it definitely could be. But not in the same industrial form. I might get some hate here, but it is my opinion that these new AI architectures could be utilized in place of classic upper management structures. Since things have become so efficient and streamlined, a manager on up the chain, doesn't proportionately pull their weight to the percentage they receive. Especially CEO level, doubly true as of late. So, bootstrapping these AI systems to function as HR, managers, CEOs, etc. could easily be done... and it would cost pennies relative to the current structures. This would place company ownership in the worker's hands once again, and the parallels between this new structure to the industrial vision of workers seizing the means of production.

It's one of my theories both on why the US companies/govt are being little bitches about advanced open source AI (deepseek from the chinese developers) and why the fear is tangible with these elites trying to own as much as possible now and here soon.

It makes sense. What does a CEO really do besides chilling on the beach for several months a year, making 3 - 4 major decisions per year - to the detriment or success of the entire company below it. An AI could know what's going on and make very calculated decisions and assess many scenarios any time you need it to. The workers could run and own their own AI for these functions.

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u/Zandroe_ 1d ago

The problem is not that the firm has a boss. The problem is not that the firm has owners other than its workers. The problem is that the firm exists, that the production of goods is governed by an irrational and archaic market system.

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u/Fancy-Pickle4199 1d ago

Ah an engineers solution to a complex social problem. Nor an approach with a great history to it. Technocracy...

There's the issues of accountability, plus path dependency and complex real world decision making. If anything I'd like a return to more human centric modes of work. AI can be a useful assistant but giving it decision making authority would be dystopic in my view.

C-suite wankers love tech 'solutions' that simplify complex problems. They'll find a way to shittify it's potential it's my bet.

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u/emteedub 1d ago

you're not wrong at all. I agree. I just still think it's one of the few ways to reallocate the wealth that's siphoned by the top, back to the actual workers. Like what is a complex, modern times problem that upper management does? Weighing where to shift productivity here or there at certain time of year? I just see it as dubious, and that the working class is a fair bit more competent collectively than the corporate structure would like to give them credit for. Perhaps more of a stat cruncher and advisory mechanism (assistant, but higher-order assistance). I'm very biased to the use of technology though. It's always inevitable, but it's the - who - is in control of it 2, 4, 5 years down the line. If we don't, they will - type of scenario.

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u/Fancy-Pickle4199 10h ago

Honestly I think the problem is now the global super rich. C suite jobs are kinda a fantasy sold to the worker to keep us in hope, that we, one too, may achieve the dream of being surrounded by insecure and over paid incompetents.

I do associate AI with the super tech especially the tech broligarchs. The technology itself I'm interested in, and my concerns lie in how resource hungry it is. I'm aware that it's countries we rarely hear from, which are dangerous to travel to, that tend to experience the most harm from the west's love of tech (wars over minerals, dried up rivers etc).

So much is how we use tech is for utterly pointless reasons.

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u/Zandroe_ 1d ago

Why do you think industrial production is "not as directly applicable anymore in the West"? We would be shit out of luck if that were the case, but fortunately it's not. Furthermore, the alienation of the producer in their product applies to all kinds of production.

And it's more relevant than ever. Just a few years ago, during the pandemic, people were encouraged to die so that The Economy - the imaginary ever-hungry ogre that is just the result of human productive activity turned by the capitalist organisation of production into an alien, external force - can recover. I can hardly imagine a more thorough illustration of the alienation of workers.

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u/Scented-apprentice 1d ago

I don't agree with the idea that alienation is only applicable to factory workers, but Marx places his emphasis on secondary sector production and quantifiable output, so I thought it might be a suitable starting point to discuss wider examples. Production is "not as directly applicable anymore in the West" because factory production has generally reduced in Western economies as a share of GDP, particularly in the UK, which is where I'm writing from.

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u/Zandroe_ 1d ago

I seem to have missed the "as" in the phrase you quote; I still wouldn't quite agree with it, depending on what standpoint we assume. But that's not really immediately relevant, I think. Rather, why do you think Marx's discussion of alienation places an emphasis, as you say "on secondary sector production and quantifiable output"? What is your understanding of alienation?

I think Marx is very succinct in the MS of 1844:

"We have considered the act of estranging practical human activity, labor, in two of its aspects. (1) The relation of the worker to the product of labor as an alien object exercising power over him. This relation is at the same time the relation to the sensuous external world, to the objects of nature, as an alien world inimically opposed to him. (2) The relation of labor to the act of production within the labor process. This relation is the relation of the worker to his own activity as an alien activity not belonging to him; it is activity as suffering, strength as weakness, begetting as emasculating, the worker’s own physical and mental energy, his personal life – for what is life but activity? – as an activity which is turned against him, independent of him and not belonging to him. Here we have self-estrangement, as previously we had the estrangement of the thing.

...

In estranging from man (1) nature, and (2) himself, his own active functions, his life activity, estranged labor estranges the species from man. It changes for him the life of the species into a means of individual life. First it estranges the life of the species and individual life, and secondly it makes individual life in its abstract form the purpose of the life of the species, likewise in its abstract and estranged form."

I don't think this account has the shortcomings you claim it has.

Is Marx’s theory of alienation still relevant today?

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