r/NASCAR • u/NoahGragsonsBarfBag • 1d ago
[@bobpockrass] NASCAR filed reply to 23XI/FRM response to NASCAR appeal of injunction order. NASCAR on if Cup racing is a market: "NASCAR identified ... critical legal errors in the decision ... like the district court’s faulty market definition, which was rooted in the wrong economic theory."
https://x.com/bobpockrass/status/1908285737809662244?s=46&t=NOJpCnNeVUF5CQug6YVTUA51
u/NoahGragsonsBarfBag 1d ago
I don’t really have funny legal analysis today, it’s Friday evening y’all. So I’m wheeling in the TV cart and putting in a video.
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u/stovetopapple Berry 1d ago
Sir I come here to be inform on legal matters by barf bags, piss jugs, poopy pants and I swear at one point a butt plug??
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u/NoahGragsonsBarfBag 1d ago
Gonna show this to Mrs. BarfBag the next time she asks why I post on Reddit.
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u/Hot_Dog_Surfing_Fly Williams 1d ago
NASCAR just announced nobody will ever start eighth again for fear of a Lamar Jackson lawsuit.
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u/KitchenBanger 1d ago edited 1d ago
TLDR/Complicated: NASCAR thinks the court is incompetent and made a poor judgment in their decision/made a decision too soon without considering all factors at play.
Blame the judge and see how that works.
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u/KentuckyHorsepower 1d ago
This whole thing seems like a power/ego grudge match to win at any cost.
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u/kingofamarillo 1d ago
That’s just how lawsuits be
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u/KentuckyHorsepower 1d ago
Yeah, this one both sides seem to have unlimited resources to fuel it onward.
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u/MrCheggersPartyQuiz 1d ago
They’re gonna start blaming boogeymen soon for any hopes of victory in this case
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u/KitchenBanger 1d ago
That’s exactly what’s happening. NASCAR is getting cooked in court and they’re blaming the legal systems itself now for their eventual defeat.
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u/TwinSpinner Chase Elliott 1d ago
Is NASCAR really blaming the court for, essentially, not being competent enough to understand the lawsuit in front of them?
Yeah, that's gonna turn out well for them.
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u/54HawksRFK6 1d ago
One day I'll spend some time to figure out what any of this means
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u/KR15PY_KR3M3 Chastain 1d ago
I’m as clueless as the rest of us but I’ll say that it kind of seems like NASCAR is throwing everything they can at the wall to see if they can get it thrown out before they actually have to defend themselves
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u/Fleaisg0d Larson 1d ago
"you didn't define economics in a way beneficial to our case. Please fix it.
P.S. we have a lot of money"
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u/arca_brakes van Gisbergen 1d ago
NASCAR is just grasping at straws because they know they're in trouble based on how the case has gone so far.
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u/furrynoy96 1d ago
Good lord how much longer will this continue?
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u/NoahGragsonsBarfBag 1d ago
You will get some sort of NASCAR Charter lawsuit news multiple times a week and you will like it!
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u/Funny-Supermarket926 Kyle Busch 1d ago
ELI5 pls
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u/MrBadBadly Martin 1d ago
23XI/FRM's lawsuit revolves around being able to prove that Nascar holds a monopoly. 23XI/FRM have to prove that Nascar has a monopoly. A monopoly is a company/organization that controls the market through a lack of competition. Most anti-trust lawsuits focus around the definition of what a "market" is. So far, rulings/injunctions have bought into the idea that Stock Car racing is a market and that Nascar more than likely does have a monopoly. Nascar is likely arguing that they do have competitors because the market that 23XI/FRM defined is wrong. That in reality the market is probably "motorsports," in which you then have IndyCar, F1, WEC, ect.
Sometimes the definitions of a "market" can seem straight foward. But they can get very contentious. They can change over time. In the 90s, Windows had a near monopoly is the Operating System market. On Desktop/Laptop systems, they still hold a near monopoly. But if you add in smartphone devices, that no longer is true between Android and iOS being added into the mix, especially as the devices are beginning to converge by sharing much of the same hardware while just changing up the form factor.
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u/hottsauce345543 Hamlin 1d ago
All I read was “Denny Hamlin wins his first championship as podcaster. Chase Elliot is actually our cup champion this year just because.”
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u/Standard-General5680 1d ago
There's a good saying. Appeals are for losers. Suck it up and start litigating the actual suit rather than trying to appeal the temporary injunction. This is just nascrap being pissy and trying to drive up the legal bills.
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u/plhought 1d ago
Since when has correct "economic theory" meant anything? Certainly doesn't appear to mean much nowadays.
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u/NYPD-BLUE Jeff Gordon 1d ago
NASCAR is going to win this in the end, as they always have, because of their resources compared to individual teams.
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u/3LoneStars 1d ago
Nah, there arguments are wack.
NASCAR has to settle because discovery will destroy their negotiating leverage.
When the world sees how much the France and Smith families drain from the sport, the mood will change.
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u/MrBadBadly Martin 1d ago
That's irrelevant. 23XI/FRM have to prove that Nascar holds a monopoly. If they can't do so, nothing else will likely matter.
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u/3LoneStars 16h ago
Lower bar than that. Just prove unfair, monopolistic trade practices, which NASCAR is guilty of. The take or leave it deadline alone, is enough for the teams to win on.
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u/MrBadBadly Martin 12h ago
monopolistic trade practices
That's kinda the point. 23XI/FRM have to prove that Nascar has a monopoly. To do that, they have to get a court to agree on what the "market" is. Is the "market" auto racing? Because they don't have a monopoly on that, with IndyCar, USAC, F1, MotoGP, Motocross, ect all competing in and being a part of that market. Or is "Stock Car Racing" a broad enough market that you could argue that Nascar is a dominant force in? It's not as clear cut as you think they are. If you can't prove a monopoly, then whatever "unfair" trade practices aren't illegal.
These nuanced definitions get argued in court all of the time. Epic tried arguing that Apple has a monopoly on their App store, but maintaining that Apple has a monopoly on providing App Stores on iOS devices. In this case, Epic tried arguing that the market was "iOS devices." However, Apple argued that the market definition Epic tried to argue is too narrow, and that instead they do have competition since iOS competes in the Smartphone Market, in which case the Google Play Store and Samsung Playstore exists and that users are free to use other stores by simply getting other devices. In the US, courts sided with Apple. In the EU, they've made Apple open up iOS to 3rd party stores, which Apple actively blocks for iPhone/iPad users in the US.
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u/3LoneStars 8h ago
Again. The bar is lower than, the existing of a monopoly, it’s just unfair trade practices. That means both what and how NASCAR does business.
They are going to lose, badly. Every press conference/interview Kessler calmly explains how NASCAR has done wrong.
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u/MrBadBadly Martin 5h ago
Look, I'd like to see Nascar lose. I think 23XI/FRM have a legit shot at convincing a judge that Nascar has cornered the market on stock car racing and that Nascar will have trouble convincing a judge that the market is broader than that.
However, you keep using the term "unfair trade practices." There is nothing unfair about sending a contract over and telling them "take it or leave it." It happens all of the time in business. Parties fail to come to agreement all of the time.
You need to understand that the lawsuit is an anti-trust lawsuit. Those always hinge on proving the existence of a monopoly. This is why in court filings, 23XI/FRM specifically note the buying of their closest "rival": ARCA. Nascar has a grip on weekly short track racing.
But understand, how Nascar does business outside of the existence of a monopoly isn't inherently illegal. But the laws/guidelines in how you conduct business while holding a monopoly changes greatly vs one in which competition in the marketplace exists.
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u/3LoneStars 4h ago
There’s not reason to have a legal debate on Reddit. I doubt you’ve read the complaint (I have). It’s pretty clear.
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u/MrBadBadly Martin 36m ago
It's been a while, but I also have read the complaint. But the complaint is just that; a complaint. As compelling as it may seem, they have to convince a judge that the market that the complaint alleges (stock car racing, or I think more specifically top professional stock car racing) exists. They have to prove that "stock car racing" is a market. Nascar will argue that it's a nonsense definition imposed by 23XI/FRM, and that Nascar has plenty of competition in the form of IndyCar, F1, WoO, USAC.
It will be interesting what a judge thinks and how the appeals will work.
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u/usernamenotprovided 1d ago
This isn’t an individual team tho. This is MJ. He don’t take losing well man.
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u/ChaseTheFalcon 1d ago
I am gonna need someone who understands legal jargon to explain to me what this means