r/WallStreetbetsELITE Mar 04 '25

Discussion Guys, I think Trump's plan is defaulting on US debt.

Ok hear me out.

The US has a spiralling debt. Trump is well known in his industry for defaulting ( the guy even managed to bankrupt casinos)

So, how do you get ready for defaulting?

First, you need to get the public ready that those that hold your debt are the bad guys. ( China, Canada the EU etc)

Then you start making ridiculous claims about other people owing ou (Ukraine owes us $500B, we are paying for Europe's and Canada defence and taken advanced off, China is ripping us etc ) so you do not have to pay them back that much. You can say that the debt is less because of fraud etc

https://www.reuters.com/markets/us/trump-says-us-might-have-less-debt-than-thought-2025-02-09/

So even if we don't pay the guys, they are bad guys and screw them (that sorts some of the guys that would complain that we screw our allies. You cannot screw you allies if you don't have any)

Then you say that defaulting is not too bad

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/debt-ceiling-trump-default/story?id=116955286

What happens when you default? Well, you have to balance the books. How to do it? By cutting government expenditure.

- Social security and government employees (they are already lowering that cost via Musk's agency)

-Defence ( already announced huge defence cuts)

- Health ( cutting Medicaid and Medicare)

And you can not easily import stuff ( Getting that ready via tariffs)

Ok, but what about military threats? Let's make Russia our friend, they do not own any US debt anyhow

Guys, I think that's the master plan. Thoughts?

edit for grammar regards

3.2k Upvotes

982 comments sorted by

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u/jakemoffsky Mar 04 '25

Lol there is no balancing the books if the government defaults. The banks collapse as much their assets will lose too much value too quickly, without bailouts (which aren't possible at that point) the average American loses everything and the union itself likely ends.

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u/BVoLatte Mar 04 '25

Russia defaulted in 1998. The Ruble/USD exchange rate went went from 6.43:$1 to 21:$1. In less than a month their currency was worth 1/3rd of what it was prior, if that gives people a little bit of an idea of how bad a default would be.

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u/The_Life_Aquatic Mar 05 '25

Warren Buffet warned as much. 

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u/Big-_D Mar 05 '25

Going all cash isn’t a counter to that

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u/kerouak Mar 05 '25

Depends what currency that cash is.

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u/jeeeeezik Mar 05 '25

obviously the swiss franc

mfers will never die

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u/TA_bjp Mar 05 '25

But it's still 30 cents on a dollar versus 0 (if the currency still exists, of course).

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u/RovingBarman Mar 05 '25

The Billionaires become millionaires and the rest of us end up with pennies...

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u/pizza_tron Mar 05 '25

No, the billionaires become trillionaires and everyone else becomes millionaires because the value of the currency is worthless.

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u/xixipinga 29d ago

The idea that capitalists rule everything is a myth, much preached by the left, the world is actually much closer to feudalism or mercantilism, those who are friends of the people in power make fortunes obernight, its not the money that rules but the power and control to be given billions for nothing, if money and capitalism really ruled the world you would see banks go bankurrupt, intead you see those in power recreate failed capitalist empires

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u/QuantSkeleton Mar 04 '25

This would be far greater catastrophe

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u/googlemehard Mar 05 '25

Yup, Russia was part of the economy. USA IS the economy.

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u/BVoLatte Mar 04 '25

Oh, most certainly.

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u/ThinkPath1999 Mar 05 '25

It would be worse by several magnitudes. The ruble wasa minor currency, the dollar is the main currency used by everyone for global trade.

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u/Independent-Pay-1172 29d ago

Far less countries were depending on the USSR/Russia. In the case of a US default, the impact to the world would be huge. The dollar would drop to a value below the paper its printed on, but perhaps thats where Trumps crypto plans come in.

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u/ImprovementProper367 Mar 04 '25

You got it. That’s exactly his plan. /s /no-s :grimface:

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u/faxanaduu Mar 04 '25

This part confuses me. What's the end game? Wouldn't it mean it's game over for him too? Not arguing, it appears that he is on that nuclear path. But why?

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u/Universal_Anomaly Mar 04 '25

The problem with Trump is that it's always possible that the answer to any question is that he's a fucking idiot.

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u/chestypants12 Mar 04 '25

Trump is like the village idiot who inherited $400 million.

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u/BillBushee Mar 04 '25

I think of him more as a sleazy used car salesman who inherited $400 million. He seems to see every interaction as an opportunity to rip someone off. He's definitely not as smart as he thinks he is.

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u/MKFirst Mar 04 '25

Well that’s good that he has Musk there to be his boss. Because that guy is also a grifter that isn’t nearly as smart as he thinks he is. Oh, we’re so fucked….

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u/LordoftheJives Mar 04 '25

He's smart in the ways that he's smart, but he thinks he can be an expert on anything within five minutes of learning about it. That's the real issue.

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u/BillBushee Mar 04 '25

He's a very good salesman and one of the best self-promoters I've ever seen. He's made a fortune selling worthless NFTs, meme coins, ugly gold sneakers, and MAGA merch. But there's nothing contradictory about being a good salesman and being sleazy.

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u/LordoftheJives Mar 04 '25

I agree. He understands how to work a crowd and people who think he doesn't don't understand that the crowds that hate him are still being worked by him. It's literally the whole premise of what made WWE as big as it got. Trump isn't very bright in a logical sort of way, but he's a social genius.

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u/No_Zebra_2484 Mar 05 '25

He’s got a preacher’s charm

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u/Sloofin Mar 04 '25

The very embodiment of dunning kruger

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u/No_Zebra_2484 Mar 05 '25

He buys the book but doesn’t read it

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u/forgettit_ Mar 04 '25

…“like,” lol.

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u/Content-Performer-82 Mar 04 '25

That is true, but what amazes me is that a lot of intelligent people are walking is line, while they know better

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u/ImprovementProper367 Mar 04 '25 edited Mar 04 '25

Rich tech bros and Trump can (a) rescue their money in different currency and (b) are on their path to gain ultimate authority. Some say they will emerge new „freedom cities“ or „network states“ after the fall (https://thenetworkstate.com/). In my humble opinion they are at least building towards some corporate CEO & board structured regime(s).

They are destroying the economy to get „legal claim“ on ultimate authority for their process of rebuilding the USA. Look up the butterfly revolution from Yarvin if you don’t know it, yet. Yarvin is „the philosopher“ behind all this.

From the butterfly revolution manuscript: „The strategy of the regime in internal exile is to legally construct an alternate regime.“

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u/CapitalistVenezuelan Mar 04 '25

If you want to understand tech bro thinking you need to read Nick Land and Curtis Yarvin on Neoreactionism.  These guys are heavily influenced by Dark Enlightenment thinking.  One comment mentions neocameralism which is an aspect you see in the writings.  Essentially the goal of these guys is to achieve feudalistic company states run by CEOs beholden to citizen-shareholders.

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u/ImprovementProper367 Mar 04 '25

Thanks, yeah I did a lot of reading about dark enlightenment, neoreactionism and their stance already. I‘ll add for everyone to inform about Peter Thiel as he seems to be the most important node in this coup network. I‘m currently also reading and can recommend „the technological republic“ from Alex Karp… and I hate it.

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u/CapitalistVenezuelan Mar 04 '25

Yarvin is in Thiel's ear personally, very close friends.  I found it helped to read the stuff in full to get the ideological underpinning.

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u/ImprovementProper367 Mar 04 '25

Can you pinpoint me where to read the stuff in full? I hate paying money for gray mirror and hence only selectively downloaded the stuff that seemed most important to understand Yarvin and directly cancelled the sub again. Is there another source about Nick Land and him you are referring to? Thanks!

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u/CapitalistVenezuelan Mar 04 '25

I actually liked Xenosystems by Land because it's his model framework for a society and makes it pretty clear what these guys want in the end.  But I bought it so idk..  Should all be on libgen but if you have trouble DM me I know some free places.

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u/TheFashionColdWars Mar 04 '25 edited Mar 04 '25

https://youtu.be/5RpPTRcz1no?feature=shared

Blonde Politics on YouTube did a fantastic job with this investigative piece released in December 2024. So far…it’s unfolding exactly as predicted.

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u/TheFashionColdWars Mar 04 '25

This is a succinct piece done very well. I feel it’s important in understanding what’s being discussed here: https://youtu.be/5RpPTRcz1no?feature=shared

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u/Capital-Hornet6846 Mar 04 '25

Lmao appreciate the last reco I will likely hate it too

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u/KetchupEnthusiest95 Mar 04 '25

The issue I have with all of this, is that the network stake, dark enlightenment, all of it. Is predicated that that these guys stay wealthy enough and have a charismatic command enough to rally people and the money to buy up everything.

To be blunt, they don't have either. If the US economy collapses in freefall, their assets are largely tied up in US assets, and even if they have outside assets, the collapse of the Dollar would mean a total collapse of the world economy. There would be nothing to buy up, there would be no CEOs or Shareholders.

They don't get to build their regime because they would create a total collapse. They lose out as much as everyone else. The strongest survivors are those that band together for mutual cause as we've seen repeatedly in collapse scenarios. Those tend not to be narcissitic and greedy people but empathetic and genuine people.

And again, these are tech bros, they literally talk like they know what they're talking about but if you know enough details you realize they're foaming at the mouth with stupidity. Take Yarvin for instance, he not only is arguing for a CEO/Corporate government structure, but has been arguing that the United States has been one since fucking FDR and that its been rudderless without FDR. He clearly has zero historical knowledge, information or even a basic civics level understanding of government and public policy. Just like Elon, he's a guy who got rich by sheer luck and connection and has been sustained by the very system he wants to destroy.

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u/AgisDidNothingWrong Mar 04 '25

The problem is that these guys are deluded narcissists who think their money provides infallible evidence of their superiority in all domains, when almost to a person they are, in fact, incredibly dumb and incompetent outside of the extremely niche situation where they capitalized a brand new sector of the market, established a near-monopoly, used that monopoly to convince other idiots who didn’t understand the new market to dump way too much money into their success based on lies and deception, and now the entire economy is based around propping up the egos of these morons, because the other morons who run the industries that actually keep the world going invested all of their money into these idiots.

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u/KetchupEnthusiest95 Mar 04 '25

I know, this is gonna suck for everyone involved. Period. But I am an optimist and I my optimism is that despite everything; good people will build strong communities that will bring us back.

These guys can't even work together anyway, the only unifying thing current for them is their protective want to have a monetary high school for the leaderboard. Once that's gone?

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u/illepic Mar 04 '25

Fuck Moldbug (Yarvin).

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u/Mean_Mention_3719 Mar 04 '25

He is a Monster

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u/ixopotle Mar 04 '25

check out neocameralism

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u/martianleaf Mar 04 '25

Someone mentioned recently that if he collapses the dollar, his massive debt obligations become worthless.

Not sure if he's that insidious, but it makes sense since they are all jumping on the crypto train.

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u/Leafyun Mar 04 '25

Jump on it all they want, if you can't buy anything with crypto either, they're just jumping from a sinking ship into a roiling ocean full of sharks.

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u/IamHydrogenMike Mar 05 '25

Crypto doesn’t work if the power grid no worky…data centers can’t suck energy if there isn’t any being produced

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u/Careless_Weird3673 Mar 04 '25

My personal belief is that Trump wants a reason to have an emergency to the point where he can extend his term. Basically he wishes an uprising happens. It gets crushed easily but the entire USA system is up for grabs and him and his cronies have to take over the banking system the energy system and the USA ends up just like Russia where there is really one small group of people who run the USA.

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u/B-Large1 Mar 04 '25

He said you won’t have to worry about voting, deep social unrest would be great grounds for declaring a national domestic emergency, and suspend midterms. After that is pretty much over, the vote will be dead.

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u/faxanaduu Mar 04 '25

Ugh that's bleak. You're probably right. Hillary said all this clearly to the American people. How stupid a large segment of us were. I've always hated the MF since the 80s.

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u/BorisBotHunter Mar 04 '25

This is why Elon wants to Pardon Derek Chauvin. Create a reason for people to Riot and then Martial Law and reforming the Police into a national police under his control 

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u/wagyush Mar 04 '25

Endgame: Trump flys to Russia where he lives the rest of his life sucking on Putins toes.

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u/JacquesBarrow Mar 04 '25

His only wish is that he had one more mouth so he could simultaneously do Putin and Musk.

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u/freebytes Mar 04 '25

Maybe Krasnov is really a Russian operative.

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u/Savings-Program2184 Mar 04 '25

Teenage bedwarmers and cocaine in the secured compound. The rest of us outside, starving and killing each other. Clear enough picture?

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u/werpu Mar 04 '25

you need guards who wont shoot you and loot you... wont work!

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u/meatsmoothie82 Mar 04 '25

Ai drones programmed to kill everyone with a net worth of less than $1B using facial recognition and all the data that Elon collected from the treasury, ss, dol, and irs. 

Palantir and Anduril have already built the shit. 

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u/werpu Mar 04 '25

Helps you as long as you have electricity

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u/meatsmoothie82 Mar 04 '25

Enslaved poor people riding exercise bikes attached to generators? Seems reasonable

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u/identicalBadger Mar 04 '25

Why would he even care? He'd hope on a plane and go somewhere else and live out his last 2 or 3 years in lavish comfort. This is the problem with electing rich sociopaths or narcissists, especially old ones - since the damage they'll cause has no possible way of impacting them, it's all abstract.

"You say that the world is going to go to shit if I do this? In how long? Oh 10 years? I'll be gone by then anyways, no big deal".

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u/FaithlessnessLegal11 Mar 04 '25

Billionaires & Russia buy up America

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u/darthnugget Mar 04 '25

Printer is coming

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u/faxanaduu Mar 04 '25

You think he's trying to force that?

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u/abc_123_anyname Mar 04 '25

He defaults and the dollar crashes you’ll see money printing like you’ve never seen. We’re talkin Zimbabwe type inflation…..

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u/werpu Mar 04 '25

Well good side is everyone is a billionaire then, bad side is, you will get a loaf of bread for that!

My family lost most of its fortune in 1918 in a hyperinflation!

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u/LifeSage Mar 04 '25

Putin has convinced Trump that he will gain hugely if he just breaks the United States. Trump is going to destroy our nation to enrich himself.

I hope I’m wrong, but it’s the only explanation for his actions other than utter incompetence.

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u/PressureSouthern9233 Mar 04 '25

Trump is a greedy nihilist. He will run our country right into oblivion if it will put a few more dollars in his pocket.

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u/Content-Performer-82 Mar 04 '25

The end game is that foreign investors, who own 25% of US debt, will pull out, causing US interested to go sky high, causing a collapse of the US economy

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u/Zombie-Lenin Mar 04 '25

The union ending is the path we are now walking, regardless of US. Default. Remember when I told you this, and if you aren't already and have the means get yourself to New England or the West Coast.

Also, ironically there's a greater chance of Canada absorbing parts of the US than there is Canada becoming the 51st state.

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u/Hi_my_name_is_G Mar 04 '25

Why New England or the West Coast?

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u/Zombie-Lenin Mar 04 '25

I'm counting New York an New Jersey with New England. I suggest New England and, my top choice, the West Coast for a few reasons.

  1. The politics of these states. These are blue states, they are wealthy states (see below);
  2. These are states that, by-in-large contribute more in federal taxes than they receive;
  3. These states represent a huge portion of the GDP of the United States;
  4. Point 1. While still plutocratic in nature they are extremely unlikely to get captured by authoritarian cleptocapitalists.

States like Minnesota and Illinois might also work. Minnesota more because of its proximity to Canada. Illinois is concerning because it is surrounded by red states.

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u/monkeyamongmen Mar 04 '25

As a left coast Canadian, this seems optimistic, but it's the first optimism I've seen in weeks. The vast majority of our population exists on a sliver along our largely undefended southern border. If the US wanted to just roll in with Stryker units, they could take the populated areas within hours.

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u/concretecat Mar 04 '25

Old England just called and said they want New England back?

Why joke at time like this? Because I love New England and would love to join forces with you (I'm a Canadian from Quebec)

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u/Futureleak Mar 04 '25

Honestly, or Texas even. I forsee any of these 3 regions coming out as surviving economic centers. Agriculture states will collapse when federal subsidies stop, but urbanized centers can merely ramp up imports from abroad.

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u/VladTheGlarus Mar 04 '25

Texas is the only fiscally sound red state, but it will lose far more than the blue states would in case of dissolution. Texans median income is already significantly lower than any of the big blue states and it's economy is propped up only by oil. It's the Saudi Arabia of the US - a glorified gas station and it's average residents don't benefit much from that industry.

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u/Lumpy_Taste3418 Mar 04 '25

Oil and Gas by Industry is the 5th Industry by GSP in Texas. Where Information is the 3rd Industry by GSP in California and New York. "Propped up" is a funny phrase.

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u/brought2light Mar 04 '25

If you want to live in a theocracy, go to Texas.

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u/Zombie-Lenin Mar 04 '25

California is best situated, for obvious reasons, to go it alone--6th largest economy in the world and the largest agricultural production state in the United States. I think California would be better off in a Union with Washington and Oregon though.

As for Texas, it has a red state problem even though its economy is healthy. I would expect, at least currently, an evangelical Christian state--not my thing--that curtails basic government services, that are already limited.

For example goodbye Medicare, social security, medicaid, etc. Plus, while the size of Texas's state government is large, the other blue states I mentioned (particularly the large ones) have governments that can more easily scale up to start providing services the current US government used to provide.

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u/countzero238 Mar 04 '25

Leon said, that there will be hardship...

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u/Vitwolpher Mar 04 '25

He did say you’ll never have to vote again - promises kept 🤝

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u/LiquidMantis144 Mar 04 '25

The master plan is to establish a "royalty" class that exists entirely outside and above the system. Afterall, government is of the poors, by the poors, and for the poors.

Trumps "master" plan is to play king and be as rich as elon.

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u/daddyneckbeard Mar 04 '25

yeah, this is how you make a real Oligarchy. This is what happened in Russia at the end of the Soviet Union. This moment is our 'peristroika' in the US. Asset prices will come on the market for pennies on the dollar. A small number of people are very short, and a small number of people and organizations will be able to take advantage of the bloodbath.

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u/MilitantlyWokePatrio Mar 04 '25 edited Mar 04 '25

I don't think so, because, not sure how well known this is, but most of the debt the government owes is just to Americans. A lot of it rich Americans.

Anyways, the Oligarch class has a huge interest in getting their treasury payments on time and in the full amount. And they are basically running the government right now (until we change that and we are building towards it).

But yeah, until then, I don't see that happening. But who knows, we were projected to grow at what, 4% if I'm getting the number right (might be 3) two months ago, Trump gets in office, now it's been revised to -3. Down from a-1.8 revision 5 days ago! Literally a 6 point swing by the ATL Fed in two months, and the revisions down might only be getting started! They might only be trying to quantify the cataclysmic and illegal attempts to halt government payments along with shuttering of agencies, so they might be underestimating the impact. 25% of our GDP is estimated as being from government spending if I'm not mistaken. And government spending has the highest multiplayer effect on GDP, because government spending, often in the form of things like veterans benefits, social security, etc, just gets passed back along through the economy, further stimulating jobs, stimulating demand, etc. So we may very well not be seeing the bottom for a few weeks, if not worse! And that's just seeing the bottom! Not hitting it. I haven't put too much mathematical analysis to it, but I don't think a 20% contraction, minimum, to GDP is unlikely with how things are going. Especially ebcause so much of our system relies on sygnery, efficiency, cooperation, that all combines to be greater than the individual parts. But now the parts are being pulled off.

And we haven't even started talking about what direct, specific effects certain shutterings will have, for example, shuttering USAID which I believe is responsible for some aid payments to AMERICAN farmers means an even more direct, higher multiplier effect, because that means that farmer is now likely going out of business, teh farm is getting closed down, that's an increase in unemployment, decreased demand for goods as there's less money in total available for spending given the unemployment. Anyways, there's so much to talk about on it, the bad economic news is like a iceberg, this is just a taste.

All of this which is to say, we have literally NEVER had this happen, where a leader in our country takes office and immediately the economic scene is not only chilled, but damn straight frosted, so our vision is completely cloudy and it's difficult to make any calls.

It also goes to show that the only ill quality of Trump's that matches his treason is his incompetence, as we see almost every single decision he makes is one that degrades the quality of life for Americans and further squeezes the working class, middle class, and, frankly, even the well off. The Oligarchs are squeezing everyone.

But circling back, we are on tectonic plates and riding the waves until we can calm the seas. Who knows what disaster is coming until then.

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u/cheshire-cats-grin Mar 04 '25

Its not just rich Americans- its also pension funds for normal people. Defaulting on debt may leave some of those in a serious hole.

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u/brought2light Mar 04 '25

They don't care about those people. How does it impact Peter Thiel, Musk, Bezos, and Trump's donors? That is ALL they care about.

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u/Chitown_mountain_boy Mar 04 '25

And 401k’s. Lots of people hold treasuries or treasury funds.

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u/quipcow Mar 04 '25 edited Mar 04 '25

Thanks for the detailed reply.

Q for you-

I seem to remember there were fears around China owning a large percentage of our debt. And the possibility of them dumping said debt if they were inclined.

 Is that still a concern? 

Would that could cause major fallout in our markets if we keep escalating this trade war and they decided to retaliate?

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u/MilitantlyWokePatrio Mar 04 '25

Hm, right, I do remember hearing about that a lot, especially in the late 2000s. So under the same framework, the numbers I last recall was that like 90% of our debt is held internally? Not sure on the specific number, but it was a large chasm between internal debt and the next highest foreign debt holder, China. Maybe China peaking at 11% ownership? Point here being just to contextualize their size in the market, it's a small portion of the over all piece. And, doing some quick refreshing

So doing some quick refreshing with Chat GPT, so the accuracy is a bit lacking, but it says that number is currently around 3%, so a drop from that high in the late aughts.

Anyways, now with an idea of how much of our debt they have, the concern with "dumping debt" is it deflates the value of holding a bond. This would drive the price of bonds down as supply increased, and when the price of bonds go down, the yield of the bonds go up. So in theory, a mass dump of debt would make the yields of bonds go up, making it more difficult to finance the government debt payments (because the government would be paying higher yields).

With all that jargon out of the way, it's not really that big of a concern because of how small the amount is they own at this point, and any sale would be offset by other buyers potentially, and again, it's only about 3% if we take Chat's word for it which sourced Wikipedia. Additionally, this would also hurt their own foreign exchange reserves, so it wouldn't be in China's interest.

All that to say, even though it was a large talking point back then, even at it's peak (though I wasn't in the scene at the time), it's likely that "Chinese debt" was a fear tactic to some extent, at least how it got covered, and the reality is, particularly now perhaps as result of intentioanl Fed Govt policy as well, it's not really a concern in the broader scheme of things.

One last thing though, to touch on the "trade war" is that it certainly could be used as a waeapon in that. But again, the same issues would apply, but if the calculus became us just trying to hurt them (seems to be trumps idea of diplomacy) and them trying to hurt us, then it's more likely, even though it still wouldn't be that bad. Really, I think the biggest risk is in the circumstances around the debt is in the incompetent policy being pursued right now, because our biggest strength, or one of, is diversity. The US economy is so diverse, so many different industries, so much capital, we can absorb blows like a sudden dump. But with turmp frying our "economic capital" if you will from the of an "economic war" stand point, then actually something like a debt dump can become much more problematic. For example, with the betrayal to Europe, it's very conceivable (and we see it happening) that capital starts drying up in exchanges. Now, if our economies are less linked, now who is less interested in US assets? Europe, right, because why hold bonds if it isn't a reliable partner. So then we can start seeing, maybe it's not just China dumping debt, but coordinated, right. So the main risk is that this haphazard foolish ignorant and treasonous approach to our policy making isolates us and makes things that might otherwise not be so impactful, magnified.

But that seems like enough rambling! Cheers.

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u/quipcow Mar 04 '25

Thx, I completely agree.

It also seems like these trade wars real or implied, will kill our markets abroad. So even the tech globalists could be shunned when people buy their next phone, or whatever.

The U.S. brand is now tied to trump and that could sink us in so many ways..

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u/regular-cake Mar 05 '25

Yeah that's what people don't understand about USAID and all the other "welfare" programs. Even when the aid is going to other countries; in the form of food, meals, grain, powdered milk, or whatever it is, that is all being purchased or produced by American farmers or American companies. USAID spent $2 billion on things grown by American farmers.

Not to mention all the food stamps and free lunches that more than encourage Americans to buy things like milk, eggs, bread, and corn that is all grown by American farmers.

All these right-wing farmers that are complaining about "welfare queens" and free handouts don't realize that those programs are what help them and keep them afloat. And I haven't even mentioned the fucking billions of dollars farmers get in free handouts in the form of government subsidies. Farmers are the fucking welfare queens! And they pretty much all voted for the idiots that are going to put them out of business and buy up all their farms for pennies on the dollar.

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u/MilitantlyWokePatrio Mar 05 '25

Not only that, it's ALWAYS for our own benefit. I probably don't need to preach to you, but soft power, influence, connections, all for the cost of 1/1000 of a penny on the federal dollar, is extremely helpful for us in preventing wars for our troops, influencing events in other countries that align with us, and so on.

Anyways, we need to rebuild that system once we emerge from this storm of chaos. Doesn't have to be the same, in fact, this opportunity gives us the chance to make a system even better, and we will.

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u/badgerbert Mar 04 '25

Its been a while since uni, but wouldnt defaulting on the US debt mean that US Treasury Bonds kinda lose alot, if not all value?

And isnt the US Treasury Bond supposed to be the safest risk free investment in the world and the foundation of the world economy/financial markets?

If you default on that then I think things will go downhill fast and in a very bad way.

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u/Eugene0185 Mar 04 '25

It would cause the depression of 1930s, but worldwide.

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u/shaunrundmc Mar 04 '25

The man that has bankrupted every business hes been involved with would bankrupt the US? who'd have thought?

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u/monadicperception Mar 04 '25

He’s not smart enough to have a plan. He’s as smart as an amoeba; he can only react to immediate stimuli.

Thanks, MAGA voters, for the dumbest mother fucker possible again in the most important job in the world.

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u/Ninevehenian Mar 04 '25

He's a bus, a vehicle. He carries the plans of many people.

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u/sofa_king_weetawded Mar 04 '25

Exactly, P2025 is the plans of many and is surprisingly complete. You really don't need to guess at the gameplan.

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u/blindwillie888 Mar 07 '25

Just the WEF trying to take over the world..no big deal.

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u/Therealchimmike Mar 04 '25

he's not running things. Heritage Foundation/Federalist Society/Project 2025 is making the decisions. They let him get up there and run his mouth, then behind closed doors they prop up his ego. But THEY are the ones who laid out the plan, and musk has been running it to a tee.

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u/Girl-UnSure Mar 04 '25

”but but but….hes never heard of project 2025!! RHEEEEEE”!!

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u/TraditionalYear4928 Mar 04 '25

Reality TV president

We're cooked

Idiocracy was a historical documentary

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u/[deleted] Mar 04 '25 edited 10d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/pencilcheck Mar 04 '25

just endure it until someone impeach him or when he makes a stupid move, then I hope it will bring elon and all his friends such as open ai CEO down as well and put them all to jail just like FTE Bankman-Fried

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u/faxanaduu Mar 04 '25

Ill cry and sleep like a baby for days while my port pumps. Impeach, convict, remove. When will this day of reckoning come to fruition?

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u/sofa_king_weetawded Mar 04 '25

If I had to guess, it is when DOGE fucks something up, either through incompetence or malice, and SSI payments stop going out.

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u/faxanaduu Mar 04 '25

Too many flash points, I'd say DOGE has fucked up a huge amount already from where im standing.

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u/augalicious Mar 04 '25

This is the correct answer. The amount of emails I’ve gotten from AARP has increased in both frequency and urgency over the last month. They know it’s coming and old folks are going to die in the streets while hedge funds snap up their soon-to-be-vacant properties for pennies on the dollar.

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u/NotTakenName1 Mar 04 '25

"Thanks, MAGA voters, for the dumbest mother fucker possible again in the most important job in the world."

... at the most important moment in time.

(bcause of climate change and the advent of AI)

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u/Ok_Reserve2627 Mar 04 '25

AI is a joke, though.

Terminator 2 is on everyone’s mind, but all we have are retarded chatbots because AI can literally only calculate contextual coherence on an unbelievably myopic scale versus even a luke warm IQ human.

When it writes code, it’s a horrific mess and unusable. When people make the pasta they get from it usable, they duplicate the ever living shit out of their code base which is a huge tech debt generator.

https://www.gitclear.com/ai_assistant_code_quality_2025_research

The models that have been fed “the total sum of human knowledge” still have issues doing “3 + 3,” and that’s not hyperbole. These models have to use a separate “math domain,” which means they have to write a fucking non AI calculator program for the LLM to use to be able to add two single digit numbers.

If China had planned for AI to roll out like it did, it’d be a huge gangbusters success, because it’s making a huge economy bubble lol the dot com burst, and we’re all gonna suffer over a bunch of technological meat beating marketing nonsense that every single know-nothing is shitting their pants about, while actual engineers are scratching their heads saying “several billion in data center costs used to net a lot lot more usefulness than” /movesArmsBroadly “this.”

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u/greatbear8 Mar 04 '25

(bcause of climate change and the advent of AI)

and China's rise

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u/gibbonsgerg Mar 04 '25

He's dumb as a brick, but you can't discount him - he's being handled by some very bright people. You don't think he actually won every swing state do you? You don't think he's smart enough to rig them either, do you?

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u/Material_Variety_859 Mar 04 '25

The vast majority of US debt is owned by Americans. What the hell you talking about?

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u/ahernandez50 Mar 04 '25

He can decide not to acknowledge the debt of certain countries only. Easily.

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u/Ambitious_Reality974 Mar 04 '25

which would tell everyone in the world that holds us debt to never lend the US money again and would probably tank their credit rating to junk

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u/Bright-Scallin Mar 04 '25

Given everything that's happened in the last fucking month, how are you trying to reason that this isn't actually being discussed, or at least ignored, in the White House?

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u/sbaggers Mar 04 '25

Credit ratings companies are all US based and Trump attacked them when they downgraded/ put the US on watch during the last admin. I doubt they'll be quick to downgrade again. Everyone lacks a backbone

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u/RAISIN_BRAN_DINOSAUR Mar 04 '25

Doesn’t matter what the credit ratings agencies say they can’t force people to buy US debt

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u/JUGGER_DEATH Mar 04 '25

"probably"

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u/[deleted] Mar 04 '25

Thats the plan if you are a russian asset.

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u/AllisonChains555 Mar 04 '25

That's exactly what OP is concerned about.

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u/sbaggers Mar 04 '25

Trump isn't that smart

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u/Dependent_Sign_399 Mar 04 '25

He's more like an old angry house cat. He's going to do things because he's going to do them and he doesn't give a shit about how the people around him think.

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u/alaoa Mar 04 '25

I think you need to look into Treasury Bond. Those are mostly owned by foreign entities.

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u/absenceanddesire Mar 04 '25

The US external debt is 94% of GDP.

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u/Pure_Performance_446 Mar 04 '25

Had a good laugh

Who would lose the most if America losses its credit rating and scares investors ? Billionaires

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u/Scary_Feature_5873 Mar 04 '25

Agree 100%. If a state default on its debt i wish him good luck in the future to attract any investors or te be lent money again. I would also assume that the defaulting would require the approval of the Congress.

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u/gibbonsgerg Mar 04 '25

Defaulting isn't a possibility under the Constitution. Congress cannot approve it. So if it happens, it happens out of Congress' control.

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u/meyG68 Mar 04 '25

Just no.

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u/Iain365 Mar 04 '25

Sorry to be that guy but it's owe not own.

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u/sofa_king_weetawded Mar 04 '25

Sorry to be that guy, but you missed a comma.

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u/Iain365 Mar 04 '25

I didn't pause in my speech... I rushed straight through ;)

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u/NeitherCarpenter4234 Mar 04 '25

Don’t make fun of him he speaks london very best

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u/UpbeatFix7299 Mar 04 '25

Most cynical possible opinion: Trump and all his mega rich flunky grifter buddies who only care about money want to turn us into Greece 15 years ago. This would benefit them somehow. The US borrowed $2 trillion last year. No one will lend us a penny if we default. This is basic shit. He would never do it intentionally

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u/azdcaz Mar 04 '25

I think he’s tanking the economy and markets to force the Fed to cut rates significantly. Also, high inflation helps reduce our debts, so he’s trying to raise inflation because he doesn’t give a fuck about poor people, only the deficit.

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u/hbgwine Mar 04 '25

I don’t know if that’s his strategy, but here is an interesting fact:

The Blue Whale, the largest mammal on earth, has an anus that stretches to 3.5 feet wide, thereby making it the second largest asshole on the planet.

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u/BoruIsMyKing Mar 04 '25

He is 100% a Russian asset.

That's the plan.

He hasn't a fucking clue what he's doing, he's just doing what he's told...or else!

The or else part, is exposing him as said asset.

None of his avtions benefit any Americans or anyone in the West. Only Russia.

Disunity is the goal.

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u/[deleted] Mar 04 '25

He’s an Israeli asset first and foremost, I struggle to see why they’d allow Russia to absolutely destroy America

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u/Valuable_Economist14 Mar 04 '25

Can’t default when you have the money printer

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u/Adventurous-Dingo-20 Mar 04 '25

Yea I believe it, absolutely nothing he’s done is to help anyone other than himself, tanking the economy is just for his amusement, he’s actually horrible at business he’s bankrupted about everything he’s touched

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u/gibbonsgerg Mar 04 '25

The constitution expressly forbids defaulting. Either we shred the constitution (meaning the USA is no more) or we print sufficient money to pay it off, probably triggering hyperinflation?

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u/Ok_Helicopter4276 Mar 05 '25

I think the OP is an idiot but some inflation does benefit the ability to pay down debts. The problem is you also need revenue to take advantage of that and massive layoffs and tax breaks for billionaires are the opposite of what’s needed because both steal tax revenue.

I’ve talked to some who think the market is already near the bottom which might be true for 3 more months but I believe they’re oblivious to the bigger picture that was made crystal clear by several recent diplomatic incidents.

Interest rates alone aren’t terrible. We had much higher rates in the 80’s, but the cost of living was way down as a percentage of income back then. We’re now in the end game that was set up by Reagan breaking the tax system and with these latest tax moves by the GOP it’s very dark days ahead.

Every republican in congress was fully exposed as unwilling to lift a finger to help the country - the bank vault is open and they’re hustling their friends in through the side door while telling the poors at the front their money is safe.

Trump’s corruption is so naked even the blind can see it, but Russian allegiances aside, every action taken by thIs administration has been obviously and blatantly dumping gas on the economic fire while trying to get everyone to believe the lie that gas puts out fires.

Everyone who understands how the system works knows that none of these moves have been good for the country or the world. We’re all just watching in real-time as the corruption and decay engulfs us.

Ironically the decision to create mass unemployment right out of the gate might just cause the perfect conditions for a regime change. But there will be a long period where the market is dead or completely frozen.

My best guess is a military coup will eventually happen that expels all non-career civil servants across the 3 branches of government, holds a mandatory election, stands up the replacement senate and house, tries to rewind the economy somehow, and then disbands. I think that will be the most effective and expedient course correction.

Then I think the next congress will implement a batch of constitutional amendments that will prevent a repeat of this in the future (kill corporate personhood, term limits for congress, restore the ban on congress owning stocks, fix taxation on the rich and corporations, and tighten up language of various existing clauses to ensure enforcement).

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u/gibbonsgerg Mar 05 '25

That would be a far preferable scenario to even another week of this regime. Somehow, though, I think too many people actually believe gas puts out fires. More accurately, I think they want it all to burn, since too many people have absolutely nothing, and hence nothing to lose.

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u/puppoccino Mar 06 '25

Do you really think that will happen? I’m scared we’re all just cooked. 😭

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u/Therealchimmike Mar 04 '25

Fiat banks will fail. FDIC? Won't exist. All our deposits would evaporate. Stock market, epic collapse. Corporations nationwide and even across the planet shut their doors/go bankrupt immediately. Hundreds of millions unemployed.

Even crypto would collapse.

I mean, look at crypto's response to dipwad's tariffs. his BS $500m crypto announcement yesterday wasn't enough to overcome the results of his buffoonery.

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u/Gold_Map_236 Mar 04 '25

For the good of the nation and world: trump needs to be removed from office.

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u/[deleted] Mar 04 '25

They haven't actually cut any expenditures though. The proposed budget passed by the house is still going to create a deficit of more than $2 trillion. We are still on track to add $19 to $20 trillion to the national debt over the next 10 years.

They cut funding for social programs, fired thousands of employees, canceled contracts, and are eliminating regulations that protect workers and the environment. But instead of saving taxpayers money from those cuts, they just spent it on other things.

And then the government will be losing $4.5 trillion in revenue from tax cuts for those making more than $360,000 per year.

We are probably heading into a very deep recession if not eventual economic collapse. We are already paying $1 trillion in interest on our debt. That is going to continue to grow.

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u/12togo1904 Mar 04 '25

It seems to me - all of the proposed theories lead to the same conclusion- the general american public gets screwed and we become a 3rd world country.

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u/unclechuuu Mar 04 '25

The largest holder of American debt is the American people. This would be dumb as hell. Please stop trying to act like Donald is some uber genius, 4d chess player, or master negotiator. Donald can’t even read. The guy can’t manage his way out of a paper sack. He is not intentionally trying his management style is leading us to bankruptcy, loss of international role, and isolation. We are all going to suffer unless someone steps up to curve his power.

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u/Impossible_Month1718 Mar 04 '25

This guy defaults

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u/blofeldfinger Mar 04 '25

To all Americans - check which countries defaulted on their debt and how it worked out.

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u/Luddites_Unite Mar 04 '25

In his first term he had some people around him who tried to rein him in (mattis, tillerson and some like them) but this time it seems like those people either steered clear or were kept away.

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u/Barthalamu65 Mar 04 '25

No, he’s going to sell 10M Gold Cards for $5M apiece /s

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u/Needaboutreefiddy Mar 04 '25

LOL trump doesn't plan anything, he doesn't even have concepts of a plan here. He does what he thinks is good in the moment which is normally batshit insane because he is extremely deluded. There's no positive endgame here dudes

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u/Particular-Song2587 Mar 04 '25

You missed the last step, when all goes to shyt; Become Russian.

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u/DoxBurger Mar 04 '25

I seriously came to same conclusion last week. Elons probably pushing this. Also Trump has defaulted at least 6 times (bankruptcies)

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u/AAA_Dolfan Mar 04 '25

Not sure I trust the DD of a guy who doesn’t know owns vs owes

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u/Steve_Dobbs_69 Mar 04 '25 edited Mar 04 '25

I thought they were just trying to turn 2 Trillion a year worth of tax money into the crypto reserve, then launder it all through pump and dump schemes over time.

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u/SilverTroop Mar 04 '25

You really don’t know the difference between “own” and “owe” do you

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u/YouSeeWhatYouWant Mar 04 '25

ITT Morons that think sovereign debt works even remotely like their credit cards.

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u/NotHolyMello Mar 04 '25

Do you honestly believe the BS you type??? Legit question 😂😂😂

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u/quizno Mar 04 '25

Maybe there’s a video of a pigeon playing chess and you can tell us about the pigeon’s strategy.

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u/neutralpoliticsbot Mar 04 '25

The debt is to ourselves

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u/12togo1904 Mar 04 '25

No intent to hijack the convo 😬. I am a single mom/disabled vet with a small savings. Should I convert it to Canadian or Euro travelers checks right now to maintain some value before they crash the dollar? Please forgive my lack of financial education.

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u/IllVagrant Mar 04 '25 edited Mar 04 '25

Social security pays for itself. Every person pays into it all their working life, so there's no debt there. The problem is these political chodes keep borrowing from it. It doesn't make sense to cut it, just stop borrowing against it. Basically, cutting social security would be akin to the politicians robbing every citizen blind and telling us it was somehow our own fault the money's gone and that we should betray everyone's trust and sense of security by scrapping it altogether. This will massively increase unrest while doing nothing for our debt.

They could cut every government job we have, and it won't be enough to ease our debt. And it's already been demonstrated that there are a lot more highly important and necessary jobs than these morons anticipated. Cutting government spending this way has been a very public, and very embarrassing losing battle, and even then the math still doesn't work out to make any sense in continuing to do so.

Defense will never be cut. It's the key to our hegemonic (and thus economic) power. We'd be screwing ourselves pretty hard by doing this.

Russia will use us but offer nothing in return as payback for how we treated them in the 90's after the USSR fell. We made a lot of promises and delivered on none of them, and let Russia flail. Revenge for that has literally been Putin's sole reason for living since he was put in charge. People really need to study history. This is exactly the situation he'd been staining his bedsheets over for 30 years.

Cutting medicare/medicaid won't put a dent in our debt. The number of people seeking medical services will plummet, and the medical industry will cry foul and beg for subsidies to counter all their losses. This happens every single time someone proposes these kinds of cuts. This is why Obamacare never died despite everyone whining about it.

This is all par for the course as far as a "throw the same shit at the wall we've already tried so long as we avoid raising taxes" master plan goes. What you're seeing is a doubling down on political theater, not a genuine effort to stave off the nation from defaulting. Trump is doing the same old shit that's been attempted only louder and more obnoxious.

If anything, the oligarchs are just preparing a planned collapse. Last time the US was in this position, the rich were strong-armed into a 90% tax rate in order to avoid widespread civil unrest. This time, they want to reconstruct the US on their terms. They've anticipated this for decades. Trump/Elon/MAGA are just a loud distraction from what's really going on behind closed doors.

The big question is if they even know HOW to reconstruct things on their terms. It might be way more expensive and difficult to try and build whatever technocracy people keep talking about and keeping the existing infrastructure will likely be cheap, but also means admitting that the horseshit they've been spewing all these years was indeed horseshit. If anything, the rich will bail out the country (the same as having just paid their damn taxes) but they'll spin things like they're the heroes somehow.

TL;DR The problem with the US is that we are a dog with a ball in its mouth. We want the ball to be thrown but don't want to let it go either. Corporations, politicians, oligarchs, etc all got what they wanted from the government, and it was all very expensive, but now no one wants to pay back into it, not even to keep things going. However, everyone is also afraid that our collapse might end up being violent and even more expensive than our current peace.

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u/thommyg123 Mar 04 '25

> the bad guys

> Canada, the EU

be serious

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u/KernunQc7 Mar 04 '25

Interesting speculation, but defaulting will never not be bad and a disaster.

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u/Roaring50s Mar 04 '25

It means all the rich people can come in and buy everything on the cheap. I agree they are doing it on purpose because they don’t actually care about Americans - they care about getting richer.

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u/manikwolf19 Mar 04 '25

Defaulting on debt has always worked for him in the past

That's a scary thought lol

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u/Betelgeuse-2024 Mar 04 '25

I do think Trump just do things without thinking, he doesn't know what he's doing which is equally disturbing.

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u/InternationalError69 Mar 04 '25

Just like his business, he is planning on filing chapter 13 for the country

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u/Dizzy_Bridge_794 Mar 04 '25

It would destroy the finance sector entirely and put us in a depression.

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u/travelogion Mar 04 '25

Excellent DD.

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u/Critical-Rhubarb-730 Mar 04 '25

Sounds like Maga logic so probably correct.

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u/lastcall83 Mar 04 '25

💯 Only he won't default. He'll mint $1T coins with his face on them and then just use them to pay off the debt. It'll be the same as default, but with $1T coins with his face on them.

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u/Time_Many6155 Mar 05 '25

Foreign countries own 24% of US debt... That means 76% of it is held by US individuals and organisations.. You want all those bonds to be suddenly worthless? What happens when we need to borrow even more money?.. A bit like when your meth addicted Brother in law just "needs a few bucks to tide him over".. Ain't happening is it? Thats why the US will never default.. Dear God at least I hope not!

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u/Franvisco_d_Anconia Mar 05 '25

The guy even managed to bankrupt casinos? If you’re so smart at running gabbling why don’t you take over PENN? Their stock hasn’t gone anywhere

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u/livingandlearning10 Mar 05 '25

🙄

You've gone off the deep end man. Put down the coolaid.

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u/WorkingPapaya4175 Mar 05 '25

We actually do cover a huge portion of the defense bill for Europe and Canada, so that’s not actually a ridiculous claim.

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u/Spright91 Mar 06 '25

I dont think there is a master plan. He just tries whichever policy he likes from whoever suggests it to him that day.

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u/Terrible-Salt2272 29d ago

Interesting read. You could add that installing a bitcoin reserve and "checking gold reserves" could also be part of such a plan. There where news that gold is transported back from uk in reasonable amounts.

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u/star744jets Mar 04 '25

Make no mistake : isolationism, tariffs barriers and geopolitical re-alignment with traditional enemies means war. The US will get more than what they bargained for.

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u/Under_Over_Thinker Mar 04 '25

A war with whom?

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u/star744jets Mar 04 '25

With the Free World . The US is under a kleptocratic and oligarchic administration. Not a democracy anymore since one rich guy bought the elections. You will soon feel the war in the form of hyperinflation, travel restrictions, massive shortages, spread of diseases and political riots. The US is now hated by everyone outside . Mark those words.

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u/NikiTrust Mar 04 '25

Any advice on how to prepare? I think you are correct in your assessment of Trumps plan.

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u/12togo1904 Mar 04 '25

following

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u/laptopnomadwandering Mar 04 '25

Wondering the same.

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u/jayleia Mar 04 '25

Only a lunatic would try this...so, plausible?

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u/quipcow Mar 04 '25

Oh no, 

I see the future..

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u/Ninevehenian Mar 04 '25

That's a lack of imagination. A russian asset would also try this.

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u/fatbunyip Mar 04 '25

While I don't think his plan is what you posted, I do think the US defaulting on its debt is a much higher possibility under trump.

He's already floated the idea that some US debt was "fraudulent" so it's not like he's not thinking about it.

If the US does default (even a technical default on a small amount of treasuries) balancing the budget will seem like a walk in the park compared to picking up the pieces from that.

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u/BullShitting-24-7 Mar 04 '25

“Plan” lol