r/WeAreTheMusicMakers • u/SpiritualBattle1548 • 5d ago
How do bands like Genesis, or Jacob Collier use chords in a way that's not obnoxious, but nice sounding?
Hi Redditors, Long time writer but I'm never too active on reddit.
I've recently been listening to a lot of Genesis and Jacob Collier (ignore the controversy, for this example, let's just reference his older music), and their music has prompted me with the question: How can they throw chords and modulate so effortlessly? Their melodies and production flow seamlessly and an untrained listener can't even decipher what's going on, just that it works.
In my efforts to try this, it's mostly come out as a garbled mess. I have an intermediate-ish level of music theory and I can get my way around fairly well. I know JC has a huge jazz influence, but I've been studying jazz for years and it still hasn't broken me from my '4 chord shackles'.
I don't want a useless answer i.e. "oh their geniuses... they just do that", does anyone know the steps to take to achieve this? How can I go about my writing in a way that allows it to excel and differentiate from the norm?
Thanks for the help :)
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u/IllConsideration8642 5d ago
A significant portion of this music is not strictly bound by traditional tonal frameworks. While music theory is often perceived as a structured system of rules, it is undeniable that many musicians blend functional harmony with spontaneous improvisations born from instrumental exploration. In most cases, theoretical analysis emerges afterward, as an attempt to decipher what has already been created, not as an initial guideline.
My advice would be to refrain from overanalyzing every harmonic choice. Instead, it would be more productive to experiment with your instrument: explore alternative tunings, harmonize melodies without scalar or modal constraints, and allow intuition to guide the process. A prime example is Jethro Tull, whose compositions often eschew defined tonal hierarchies, prioritizing the organic flow of melodic phrases over academically prescribed structures.
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u/AnalogWalrus 5d ago
Genesis is one of my all time favorites, and the answer is…there’s just a lot of chords, and I imagine it was just the product of a lot of trial and error and years of finding their way around their instruments.
One thing Genesis did a bit of was pedal tones: something like “Turn It On Again” or “Squonk” change chords over the same droney bass note which provides a unique tension and eventual release and is an easy trick to incorporate into one’s own writing. Similarly, chord inversions are your friend…remember, just because you’re playing a C chord doesn’t mean the bass note has to be C…could be E or G to flow into the next chord, or even some other note in the scale for extra nerdery.
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u/arbpotatoes 5d ago
I find most of what Jacob Collier does obnoxious
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u/Creepy-Debate897 4d ago
Yeah, he seems like a geniune and positive dude but I find his type of music self-indulgent it is by theory nerds and for theory nerds most normal people dont vibe with that.
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u/SaveThePlanetEachDay 5d ago
I’ve never seen a musician who’s made a career from mostly talking before. It’s amazing. I actually don’t know Michael music he’s made.
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u/rthrtylr 4d ago
Listen you, he’s literally hung out with Quincy Jones and Stevie Wonder, in his pyjamas, for some reason! And it hasn’t resulted in any music that’s nice to listen to which is crazy when you think about how Jones and Wonder are absolute good-tune factories so I have no idea what’s going on there but look shut up!
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u/WizBiz92 5d ago
I think the first step would be just to know what that norm IS; what cadences and progressions are used so much that they feel stale and TOO familiar? Then, you can start with one of those but make some different choices. Substitute a major for a minor or vice versa, experiment with what feels like natural lengths of progressions and where they repeat, and just generally try things that go against your "easy instincts" and when you find one that interests you commit to it and lean into it when making the rest of your decisions.
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u/Hisagii 5d ago
Don't wanna go to deep into theory, cuz I find that boring. So I'll leave a quick tip that I got from mentors and what not. Don't think about music in keys, specifically our own music. A lot of us suffer from what I call keyitis, where we're trying to write something but our brain is telling us that we must stick to these chords and those notes because that's what's in key and that's what we learn at a fundamental level. Don't think about keys or a scale, think purely on the notes you have at your disposal and start writing from that.
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u/Original_DocBop 5d ago edited 4d ago
Transcribe their songs and study the chord progression they use. Some basic theory knowledge will help you label the sounds your hearing. Circle of Fifth, strong root movements, chord inversions, chord substitutions, all real basic stuff. Mainly though transcribing the songs and get your ear used to hearing the movements they are using. Take their chord progressions and write a song based on them. Internalize the sounds you like.
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u/Green-Shape-4868 5d ago
Everyone that I know that play an instrument like that have practiced, a lot. Practiced until moving between chords became automatic.
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u/AlfalfaMajor2633 4d ago
On thing that can lead you to interesting chord choices is to try reharmonizing some songs you know. There are YT videos about it that will get you started. From there you can start to hear how the chords can lead you to new keys or other melodic ideas.
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u/standardnerds 5d ago
Jacob Collier IS obnoxious
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u/beatisagg 5d ago
Yeah honestly it's kind of his thing.
He doesn't like guitar so he invents a 5 string guitar. He verbally gives an orchestra instructions in red overalls and it's supposed to be genius. The way he sings is like the most Gorky possible away to make vowel sounds.
I dislike almost everything about him, but YouTube keeps sprinkling him at me.
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u/Silent-Noise-7331 5d ago
Look I don’t listen to his music either, but no doubt he’s talented as fuck. He’s definitely guilty of being cringey but idk I can’t hate the guy.
That orchestra video is kind of dumb though
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u/sheriffderek 4d ago
Tell me about some things that are cringy. Isn’t that your reaction? Feeling embarrassed?
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u/lozzobear 5d ago
Well you're talking about genius level talents. Highly trained musicians with an exceptional understanding of melody, harmony, chords, voice leading, arrangement, production and all sorts of complex musical theory.
How do you move in that direction? I think you get there through study. But one useful shortcut might be to take just one thing you find in their work, one chord change with a melody idea, play around until you understand the mechanics of it, and start improvising and writing around that.
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u/zerogamewhatsoever 5d ago
Jacob Collier is self-taught. Not a fan of his music, but he definitely qualifies as a genius-level talent, perhaps because of that.
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u/HedgehogHistorical 3d ago
Self taught is a stretch, he's from a family of highly educated and respected professional musicians. Not knocking his obvious talent, but he's not an average kid who got a keyboard or a guitar for christmas.
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u/HurryRemote2562 5d ago
Honestly I think it's just takes learning songs like these, and considering while you do "Hey why does THIS note in the melody sound the way it does against THAT chord". If you do that for long enough, your brain will start to make connections and create an understanding that will materialize in your music, and it'll feel natural.
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u/kLp_Dero 4d ago
You modulate in similar keys like going from A to E is only gonna change a single note in your scale, G.
For adding chords, try inversions and passing chords. A chord holds for too long for your taste ? Play inversions, like a 5th or 3rd in the bass note. That chord doesn’t lead to the next easily ? Play a II V I Chord needs to make the song move ? Make that octave in your triad a major 7th then a 7th then a 6th.
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u/NetCurious_1324 4d ago
I would say a lot of this comes from inner feelings plus understanding of music theory plus experimentation. A lot of Jacob Collier does, for example, is not difficult to achieve if you hear the harmonies in your head and have the skill to reproduce them with your hands. I think it also helps that Jacob has a perfect pitch, though I don't believe it is strictly necessary. Someone also pointed out that Jacob moves very freely around microtones, and that's a tallent, in my view! :)
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u/Icy_Jackfruit9240 5d ago
I find both super annoying (in different ways), so unfortunately I'm thinking instead maybe the question is, how do I make annoying pop-like Jazz that doesn't sound much like Jazz while also not being just straight up shrill or something.
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u/BenCoeMusic 5d ago
I don’t listen to a ton of either of those artists but I used to watch Jacob collier’s videos on his ideas on harmony, and I play a lot of jazz.
I think first off a lot of jazz progressions are longer than 4 chords, and you can learn a lot by analyzing tunes with long progressions and their melody as it relates to the chords. But more importantly is to analyze and think about the melody as it relates to the chord changes. In jazz I tend not to think of a progression with however many chords, but as a series of chord changes, each one having a specific sound. And the emphasis is playing a melody that sounds good over each change, not playing a melody over a progression. Does that make sense?
Once I started thinking of it that way, it suddenly became easier to improvise long progressions and melodies, because I wasn’t thinking about where I was three chords ago, or how I’m getting back to the IV-I at the end of the phrase. You can think about where you are and where you’re going next on it’s own. Then you can sort of start to grab changes that you’ve played in other tunes, and see how more interesting structures can fit together. This further can lead to interesting lead lines, because you’re not bound to a key for the whole time, you’re bound to the notes that fit in with the chords going on.
When you notate all this out it can make sense to write it as borrowed chords or key changes or lots of accidentals and it can look complicated, but when you’re composing it’s as simple as “what would sound good next” and not worrying about the rest. It can just as easily sound natural to the listener, because it’s just what comes next.
Anyway that’s just how I’ve learned to play, and I got the sense a long time ago Jacob Collier interacts with it kind of similarly, but I could be wrong and I’m sure there are tons of other ways to interpret it.