Musings and observations on Classic WoW as an ex-Retail player

[u/baked_salmon]

Just a bunch of random thoughts.

My History

I started in TBC as a 14yo. I still remember getting defense capped and my heart pounding out of my chest tanking my first Kara. Since then, I’ve played every xpac, never fully completing one. I have multiple CE’s to my name and currently play Cata Classic where I’m in a world top-150 guild.

Key takeaways leveling 1-60 for the first time

• It’s slow but has obvious charm. There’s something endearing about being in the world with a bunch of other players all focused on the same task, playing cooperatively. I used Questie and even though it was on rails I still can say I get what people talk about when they get nostalgic about leveling.
• Some quests are abhorrently tedious due to drop rates or rare spawns. This was really frustrating and made me put the game down since, as a warrior, grinding takes forever since I already need to eat/bandage every other mob.
• Tanking is incredibly unforgiving, especially at later levels. There’s no way to meaningfully AoE tank and threat generation sucks until you get gear, which ultimately means dps has to either hold back (which sucks as a dps), or pull threat and kite. I eventually learned that mages will cast blizzard and deal with their mobs their own way, but this felt very wrong on principle coming from later iterations of the game.
• Mechanics are very simple, but arguably unforgiving compared to content at the lowest difficulty in Retail. A lot of mobs hit way harder than I anticipated, had weird mechanics like threat drops and knockbacks, but ultimately if you know these are coming, they’re easy to deal with.

I leveled 54-60 spamming BRD for HGC/HoJ because, AIUI, these are necessary items for raiding as a fury warrior in classic. They never dropped. I took a break from slamming my head at BRD by trying to tank my first LBRS. Once that concluded, I decided to put the game down until TBC. The grind simply isn’t for me, especially when the payoff is [Warning: opinions ahead] target dummy bosses with a three-button rotation where I’m mostly spamming heroic strike with my unlimited rage and have literally more consumables to manage than class spells/utility that I’ll use when DPSing.

Observations on the state of the game today

Shoutout to u/Svencredible for this comment, much of which I’m going to paraphrase.

Reddit and WoW forums aren’t meaningful sample sizes of the WoW Anniversary Classic population, but regardless, players here fall into two camps:

1. Players who play for power progression. The point of the game is to have the best gear possible. Parsing or maybe getting HWL is a side-effect of that. They aim to clear all content because that’s how you get the best gear.
2. Players who play for the “sandbox” that vanilla was designed as. Classic is a giant world where you can do anything, and these players enjoy the journey and all of the emergent, social gameplay that comes along with it.

These two players are not necessarily, but often are, at odds. IMO the entire GDKP debate is a symptom of this divide: progressionists see it as a safe, reliable way to raid and get loot (especially for their alts) while sandboxers see it as a slap in the face of WoW’s intended design. It’s a gamification, a sterile reduction of their favorite game.

The sandboxers want to take their time with their holistic approach to the game and character development while the progressionists want to go as fast as possible and ignore anything sub-optimal or off the track of that path to power. There’s currently a massive resource shortage which has led to inflation in consumable prices, and while progressionists either have to spend hours farming gold or RMT to play the game they want to, the sandboxers (at worst) point and laugh at those enjoying such a small subset of what the game has to offer.

The progressionists basically treat this game like a mobile game: 1. Log in to get your WBs 1. Farm or more like buy gold for your consumes 1. Log back in for raid night at a chance to become more powerful and optionally show off your acquired power via logs

There are even emergent features that allow players to enter this gameplay loop as fast as possible: mage boosts. Want to skip what sandboxers consider the game to be and instead go right ahead to what progressionists consider the game to be?

[Opinion] The sandboxers that enjoy classic wow are a dying breed desperately trying to hold on to something nostalgic that can’t be recaptured in modern times. There needs to be an RP server, not for people who want to pretend that they’re their character, but for people who want to pretend it’s 2006 again and they’re lost in the big, beautiful, populated world of Azeroth.

Furthermore, you have to be really invested in this game to do anything other than power progression once 1-60 is done. There really needs to be novelty in just logging on and being in the world, and given that it’s all already discovered, is there any novelty left?

Classic+?

It’s not happening. Ask yourself, who is this for? If you want power progression, play SoD or Retail or Cata/MoP, iterations of this game that are much more streamlined for power progression.

It doesn’t make sense to cater to the Sandboxers because of how small of a subset of Classic they are. You could add “more quests and zones” and even some much-needed class balance, but the progressionists are going to consume it in a day, figure out what’s required to max their player power, and ignore the rest.

TL;DR: there is none, this is a bunch of random thoughts.

[u/aritalo]

An absolute gem of a post highlighting the community split.

For classic plus: Personally I think there needs to be more horizontal progression that cater to both sides of this split. There is already some examples of this in the game, but I want MORE things like this: T0.5 Set, Dukes in Silithus, Tarnished reals, Crafted items that also require interaction with the world (Devilsaur, Benediction, Rhok'delar). Other examples include adding low % flex items like Baron Mount, Ironfoe etc. Personally I loved the epic crafting quest in SOD P1 and P2.

[u/Sceptikskeptic]

I wouldn't say most people play for nostalgia.

Rather, there is no MMO that can compare to WoW.

I'm guessing alot of people quit WoW and came back to scratch that itch.

Tbh though, as long as you are having fun that's really all that matters.

I'll quit WoW when it stops being fun.

[u/Intelligent_Bug_5881]

Great post! Very adroit, I enjoyed your breakdown.

I am definitely a power progressionist at heart but I also love the sandbox aspect. When it comes down to it I love going fast and optimizing, but I think that’s mostly born out of a real love for the game. The art style is just beautiful and I enjoy the feel and gameplay of the classes. So I feel like in that respect I see it from both sides.

The mobile game approach that the pure min/maxers have for the game is a really great point. It’s a huge problem. They are the people I want to raid with at the end of the day but they do not value the social aspect the way I do. Memes or one word responses is all you get from them. They come across as toxic and exclusionary because of that and I think that’s a big part of the playerbase divide.

We can have it both ways!!! Ignore the jerks and focus on what you love about this awesome game 🥳

[u/Doxbox49 → u/Intelligent_Bug_5881]

My guild has 15+ people is discord every afternoon. Most my guild likes to min/max but also just like to have fun with others. We’ll probably clear bwl tomorrow in 90ish minutes so we arnt sweats really. Just competent players who love the game. We also have a 0 tolerance policy on being toxic. Criticism is fine but no flaming others for any reason. 

[u/piltonpfizerwallace]

World top 150 guild in cata... are there even 150 guilds in cata rn?

Actual question... sounded like a flex but also doesn't sound like a flex.

I didn't read your full message I'm sure it was decent... Just curious what that means.

[u/baked_salmon → u/piltonpfizerwallace]

Basically we cleared all of the current raid tier in Cata at the highest level pretty quickly. From a POV of retail raiders it’s not much of a flex, but it’s basically proof that I’m a somewhat competent raider.

[u/NoHetro]

for your classic+ point i think catering the game to the sandboxers will bring in everyone else, adding more quests, activities and none end game content is just good for the game as long as it doesn't completely devalue the other already available content, which is something that happened in every iteration of wow you named,

SoD is on the right path, the main issues with it is tha

• it's seasonal which can immediately turn off some people, speaking personally i think mmorpg are a very longterm journey that you can leave and come back and be at the same progress you left, not reset to zero.

• the power progression is not vanilla like, it's much closer to retail in how strong you are, content gets ran through in matter of weeks if not days, which goes back to my previous point, in sod you are a hero from level1.

the problem with the other iterations you named is that they keep constantly resetting your progress to zero and it keeps adding new content that makes older ones basically bloat since they are no longer relevant,

you might think, well how do new players catch up? well by going through the journey like everyone else, the only downside i see with this in vanilla is some group content you will struggle to find groups for once it's no longer current, which is part of what made hr mode so popular, almost all content is "current" all the time since people keep starting from zero, but this can be easily fixed by adding new unique rewards that will keep all players engaged,

like the coins from sod that were added to dungeons, or how about adding a very long term chase item in raids it could be cosmetic like a mount drop at the end boss,

or it could be a useful niche item like for example in mc a cape that will constantly deal damage to everything around you when you're in combat and you aquire it by getting these embers of fire from all the bosses in mc and you need some large arbitrary number like 100 or something, so people that want it for farming or tanking can keep going back to it,

funny thing is we sort of had a fix for this issue in vanilla with a loot system called GDKP, it kept old content relevant to people that needed nothing from it so that newer players could get their drops, personally i think the reason "sandboxers" hated it was because they felt like they couldn't benefit from it, they either were just bad at the game and couldn't carry their weight or they didn't know how to farm gold and play the market, they blame gold buyers but GDKP at most have 20% gold buyers, which sure is a lot but that's an issue for blizzard to remedy, and not by just removing content that gold buyers can benefit from, otherwise we would end up removing the AH and trade entirely.

anyways, i literally just woke up and rambled long enough, i would be surprised if anyone even reads this far.

[u/Jagueroisland]

Classic WoW is like the opposite of a sandbox. Also, the game came out in 2004. I keep reading posts mentioning 2006.

You're right that a lot of the players treat it like a mobile game. Most people play Classic for nostalgia, they are just reluctant to admit it.

[u/Lofi_Fade → u/Jagueroisland]

The patch we are playing on, 1.12, released in mid 2006.

[u/KindAdeptness31]

Stopped reading after you said you quit after tanking 1 LBRS, then proceeded to try explain what the end game is.

It's okay to quit and go back to retail quietly. You can keep a personal journal if you need to get thoughts out of your head, we don't need to read it. Weird main character syndrome you got.

[u/Demmandred → u/KindAdeptness31]

You're missing fuck all after that though. Classic is a journey from 1-60 and that will always scratch an itch but let's not pretend the end game is good.

BRD remains the greatest 5 man content ever created but the raiding in classic is just bad.

There's myriad issues with retail but the raids have been brilliant post dragon soul. Even when the game is at its worst (WoD) BFF remains one of the best raids they've ever done.

Outside of wackamole raids where the challenge is to clear it as fast as humanly possible not actually progress there isn't a great deal to do.

The guy isn't wrong haha.

[u/KindAdeptness31 → u/Demmandred]

I'm happy to agree to disagree. If retail is your thing, good for you. You'll probably enjoy it over at /r/wow

[u/VeganGymGuy → u/KindAdeptness31]

Exactly what I thought. He didn't get SGC and HoJ so he got disheartened, did a LBRS and basically quit from there. So he barely played the game but wants to be writing a giant thesis on the state of the game.

[u/ssmit102]

In my experience the sandbox players are by far the loudest and most toxic members of the community and it’s not even close. The vitriol against people who enjoy raids and parsing in classic is beyond ridiculous. Sandbox players constantly insult anyone who doesn’t play Classic exactly like they do and have an inability to just let people play as they want.

Anni has brought out a lot of extremely toxic dad gamers who insult everything that isn’t exactly how they play the game. Now days everyone who plays less than you is a casual and anyone more than you is a sweat - it’s just insults after insults instead of letting people enjoy what they like.

[u/baked_salmon → u/ssmit102]

It’s ironic that the people who love this game for its multifacetedness show toxicity towards others who don’t enjoy the same facets as them 🙄

[u/unoriginal1187]

I to am waiting for tbc but mostly because classic raids make me sleepy 😂 I do understand why ulduar HM and heroics after killed off so many classic raiders

[u/pentol5 → u/unoriginal1187]

This is the explanation for why there's such a "gotta go fast" mentality to raids. Going fast means papa won't be so sleepy he needs a nap before you're done.

[u/PaulAllensCharizard]

its going to happen

[u/No-Thing3098]

I hate when people say “yall play for nostalgia”. As if the game isn’t just better than other versions of the game. Better in all ways? No, but certainly a better experience for a massive percentage of people.

The dichotomy of profession and sandboxers misses a little bit of nuance I think. I think there is a bell curve of people on 2 spectrums, skill and time. The people with high skill and high time, usually want to speed run. People who have high skill but low time, might defer to parsing as a means of showing off their skill. People with high time and low skill, can’t really parse all that well, so they like progression mechanics like hard modes. And finally low time low skill players just enjoy tagging along for whatever they can.

Blizzard’s attempt at c+ with SoD, mad virtually all the above groups quit at different times. I’m not holding my breath for them to be able to create a product that is better than Vanilla/TBC/WOTLK.

[u/pentol5]

High quality post!
The sandboxers are much better served by the other set of devs, the hard-shelled ones, who really care about and understand that group of people. It is very much exactly the kind of classic+ that many would enjoy much more than the progressionists would. (Although they also get new cool stuff)

[u/Silent-Camel-249]

I agree, classic+ would just be cataclysm without the world changes like we got with sod, the current team lacks the ability to make new content that is good enough to please the classic crowd

[u/Daoed]

It’s not happening. Ask yourself, who is this for? If you want power progression, play SoD or Retail or Cata/MoP, iterations of this game that are much more streamlined for power progression.

I have been wondering at irony of the obsession with parsing in Classic myself; since Classic is probably the version of WoW that is the LEAST suited for it.

Skill expression in Classic is low (rotations and mechanics are almost non-existant), and much of your character's power comes from stacking the busted World Buffs and consumables, which in practice means you need to pay to parse. And with the the prices on the Anniversary servers, it further means you need to pay IRL to parse.

It just seems like a bit of a clown show to me, if I am being honest.

[u/Individual-Boss-156]

Most of the WoW Classic community would be better off playing Clash of Clans. GDKPs and other p2w bullshit reduces WoW to a shitty mobile game experience where players actually playing the game honestly get the shaft due to all the p2w cheaters out-pacing them

There is no such thing as a good p2w MMO. It’d be different if min-maxers didn’t cheat to win, since min-maxing would actually be meaningful and fulfilling. Right now, with all the RMT muddying the waters, you just get an overly expensive MMO where it costs hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars per year to compete with the swipers. Just like Clash of Clans, a non-swiper has a degraded experience

[u/ssmit102 → u/Individual-Boss-156]

Never swiped and having a blast in anni. It gets really old that it’s always doom and gloom here with insane amounts of FOMO that people can’t just enjoy their own game. The experience is only degraded if you let it be.

[u/Individual-Boss-156 → u/ssmit102]

I’ll repeat - there is no such thing as a good p2w MMO. It’s as simple as that. Paying to win ruins the entire concept of a MMORPG

[u/ssmit102 → u/Individual-Boss-156]

Good thing wow isn’t a p2w mmo.

[u/Individual-Boss-156 → u/ssmit102]

Ok, you’re way too dumb to talk to

[u/ssmit102 → u/Individual-Boss-156]

Whatever you say boss. I know it may hurt to hear, but not everyone better than you at this game is paying to win.

[u/koryaku]

the sandboxes should just be given Cata or Legion Era. (pls blizzard)

[u/proudfemfluid]

since I already need to eat/bandage every other mob.

You don't, you're just bad at kiting/movement tech

Tanking is incredibly unforgiving, especially at later levels. There’s no way to meaningfully AoE tank and threat generation sucks

Again, this is a skill issue, you need to tank by doing damage. 2h fury/prot moving from mob to mob, using WW and cleave.

I leveled 54-60 spamming BRD for HGC/HoJ because, AIUI, these are necessary items for raiding as a fury warrior in classic. They never dropped.

Some times when I start fresh I get everything, other times I don't get jack shit. It's rng and it's the reason I'm not gonna playing tbc classic this time around.

It’s not happening. Ask yourself, who is this for?

It already happened, it's called Season of Disappointment, that's all modern blizzard could come up with.

The sandboxers that enjoy classic wow are a dying breed desperately trying to hold on to something nostalgic that can’t be recaptured in modern times. There needs to be an RP server, not for people who want to pretend that they’re their character, but for people who want to pretend it’s 2006 again and they’re lost in the big, beautiful, populated world of Azeroth.

Maybe.

[u/do-a-barrell-roll]

Well organized thoughts.

TBC was / is the most balanced PvP, imo. So many specs just not even close to viable in classic and while there are still a few classes that are crazy strong in tbc it’s not like, unheard of for a spriest or boomie to be in raid. Right now SoD is season of one shot. Everything dies too fast. Classic is better for PvP but definitely unbalanced (rogue with double blinds is reeeeeally tough to kill). TBC waiting room until then : )