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u/Asmo_Lay Dec 05 '24
Lol. Water Magic is a liability in Ranked. And Dury is just better Tazzar because of that.
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u/Cezaros Factory! Dec 05 '24
She also starts with Offence while Tazar has Advanced Armorer (so he's prone to level 3 Ballistics)
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u/Asmo_Lay Dec 05 '24
Exactly. There's a chance for Tazzar to get Offence as well - but here it's the matter of time.
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u/Irelia4Life Dec 05 '24
True, true. Mass cure/dispel/bless/prayer/forgetfulness or expert teleport/clone is a very big liability.
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u/Asmo_Lay Dec 05 '24
Mass slow/haste - and you will never have a chance to cast any of your fancy Water spells.
And for mass Prayer there is Angelic Alliance. At least there is a Fire Wall and Berserk.
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u/Irelia4Life Dec 05 '24
Because you assemble the angelic alliance by snapping your fingers.
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u/Asmo_Lay Dec 05 '24
I said that once when I saw your meme - and I'll do it again.
Your experience is insufficient - you have to play more Jebus Cross blyat.
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u/wasp_F Dec 05 '24
1.You have limited secondary skill slots
Mass dispel is the only good water spell in PvP (the other ones are very situational) and it can be disabled with a single artifact
You still prefer early earth magic because it is superior
You have 2 skills to choose from on a level up, and water will be worse than most of them in most situations
Who needs these spells when you can ressurect, slow or implode an unit?
Since you are aiming for earth + air magic, logistics, and a good battle skillset you can't manage to fit all of that AND water while playing PvP (99% of matches never reach month 2, most end in week 2 or 3 (on XL maps of course if you're wondering))
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u/Irelia4Life Dec 05 '24
I don't aim for earth+haste, I aim for earth+water
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u/wasp_F Dec 05 '24
You're not experienced then im afraid
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u/Irelia4Life Dec 05 '24
Neither are most of you when over half the sub is still surprised that stables upgrades cavaliers to champions. Ya'll just quote Lexilav.
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u/wasp_F Dec 05 '24 edited Dec 05 '24
I don't even watch him.
Got around 2000 online games myself and i probably know more game mechanics than that guy.
Water is just a waste of good skill slot.
Earth, Air, Logistics, Armorer, Offense, Wisdom - this is what you want on your hero until you actually attack the enemy. You've got 2 slots left and that is 22nd level AT LEAST to max out. Of course you'd like to have resistance or leadership too and your hero probably has 2 skills at the start so we have the skill slots filled. By the time you have them you probably don't need water for anything except dispelling antimagic.
Apart from that, there isn't a single water spell in the late-game that would be useful.
Prayer? - haste gives more speed and it is 3x as cheap
Forgetfullness? - Why would you need it? Most of the strongest shooters are immune to it anyways. Air shield or just plain haste would do the trick for less mana.
Cure? - Nobody cares for the actual heal effect, it's just a dispel that can be used on your creatures only
Teleport? - can't go through the wall so why would i use it anytime? If there is no siege i can just walk forward, can't i?
Clone? - Could be useful if you don't have earth nor ressurect and have archangels. But wait... You're aiming to get earth anyways, so why bother?
Ice bolt/frost ring - worst damage spells in game that you can cast on creatures, just use lighting bolt or meteor shower
Water elemental? - probably the only one spell that does something slightly useful, yet isn't used because there are better options, earth and air elementals at least have good spell immunities
Bless? - Water is not worth getting +1 damage on your creatures. It literally does the same thing as bless without water, just casts on all the units. Shield or stone skin does much more in battle anyway and you'll still need earth magic.
The rest of them aren't even worth mentioning. Learn the basics
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u/Irelia4Life Dec 05 '24
I won't even bother arguing when your strongest point about haste is that it's cheaper and it gives 1 more speed, not the elephant in the room, that being it replaces slow.
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u/wasp_F Dec 05 '24
Ah yes, a classic example of dunning kruger effect. Again - learn the basics, then discuss.
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u/Eovacious (being sneaky) Dec 06 '24 edited Dec 06 '24
Teleport? - can't go through the wall so why would i use it anytime?
With Water magic, it can.
Bless is extremely potent early on with Cove, Factory, Dungeon, Stronghold, Conflux. In particular, it lets you take max population creature banks that you don't have a no-loss setup for, earlier and with lesser losses (conserv, hive; and in before, I'm not saying you can't do it with Earth, this isn't an either-or situation). Clone is in top3 best spells in the game in competitive singleplayer, and very potent in competitive multiplayer if the player in question has the wits to use it to its potential (it's free resurrections, free automaton bombs, free demonology, etc. — if nothing else, free damage&space-blocking.) Mass Prayer's main point is precisely that while it doesn't cancel Slow, it doesn't get canceled by Slow either. And Cure needs Water in order to be used as an effective mass dispel that preserves your own buff. When your hasted troops get Mass Berserk'd, you ain't saving all of them with single-target Cure.
Water isn't in a great spot right now, but it's been indirectly buffed in applicability a lot, and it's miles ahead of Fire (which doesn't suffer from a lack of great spells as much as from the fact that those spells are perfectly usable without the school). Earth+Water or Air+Water are generally superior competitive combinations to Earth+Air.
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u/Shvihka Dec 06 '24
The only time you need Water Magic is when the guardian to the treasury/middle are Cyclops because then you need Mass Forgetfulness. I literally cannot think of a single other use for Water Magic in a serious playthrough.
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u/Usinaru Dec 05 '24
Lmao who even cares about water magic
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u/Kevkoss Rampart Addiction Dec 05 '24
In certain versions of Duel template water magic is very useful.
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u/Usinaru Dec 05 '24
It has it niche uses right, but in general earth is what you want. Otherwise air is good as well. Fire is meh and water is the worst
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u/PkerBadRs3Good Dec 05 '24
fire is the worst
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u/Usinaru Dec 05 '24
I dunno, blind is very useful. It forces the enemy not to be able to surrender.
Mass frenzy is also funny.
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u/PkerBadRs3Good Dec 05 '24
blind is already useful at basic and can also stop the opponent from doing anything, it doesn't get all that much from the fire magic skill. expert berserk (i assume you mean this, not frenzy) is nuts in theory, destroys the AI, but has too much counterplay to be reliable in pvp, tbh i've only seen it come up a small handful of times in hundreds of pvp games.
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u/Usinaru Dec 05 '24
Blind at basic still lets you retreat. Had many times the AI do that in WoG.
Yes I also meant berserk, and indeed it might have enough counterplays, but its still funny if you berserk right before the castle's deathstack crusaders just hack griffins to sh*t before the enemy hero could retaliate.
I also used frenzy itself sometimes, at high spell power levels it actually gives a huge chunk of damage to melee stacks.
I don't prefer either water or fire either way. I prefer earth or air.
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u/PkerBadRs3Good Dec 05 '24
Blind at basic still lets you retreat. Had many times the AI do that in WoG.
no it absolutely does not, at least not in SoD/HotA. my best guess is you had the enemy flee on ballista turn bug (the bug is that AI can do this even without Artillery skill which isn't possible for humans) and blamed it on lack of fire magic. or you tried to blind loop and messed it up with the enemy being faster than your next unit. or WoG changed it somehow, I'm not familiar with WoG, but basic blind does not allow retreating in SoD/HotA.
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u/Usinaru Dec 05 '24
I am playing WoG and thats probably my suspect.
They didn't have artillery at all therefore it wasn't the bug either. I just noticed this discrepency like 3 days ago when I though just blinding an enemy stack for 5 turns will let me deal with his army and finish that 1 stack off.
And no, no breath attacks, dispels or anything touched that stack. They were blinded for 2 turns left, yet the AI retreated. It frustrated me to no end
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u/Uruguaianense Dec 05 '24
I thought Dury was a guy lol
I feel bad for Gunnar. I love playing with him but he is just a dumb minotaur