Ryan Waller, a 22-year-old man who, despite having a bullet in his eye, endured 4 hours of interrogation by cops who thought he was lying—only to receive medical help too late.

[u/SilkenSeraph]

[u/fakawfbro]

He was regressing into childlike behaviors due to severe brain damage. The cops in this case were absolute bastards.

[u/GearsZam → u/fakawfbro]

This is the most important part that some folks aren’t taking into consideration—he wasn’t being grumpy and visibly sleepy and snapping at the officers by any choice of his own. His brain was not functioning logically, it was slowly sustaining more and more damage.

He did not have the capacity to turn this situation to his favor. He very clearly does not understand what’s going on, and if I remember correctly from watching his interrogation, he didn’t even realize his girlfriend was dead most of the time.

Like. This is on those cops, 100%.

[u/Orshabaalle → u/GearsZam]

Yep this interrogation was a very hard watch. Watching the guy self soothe while being completely unaware of his own state of health, how he got there, and where he is.

Just over, and over, pleading to the cops that he want to get some sleep.

[u/GearsZam → u/Orshabaalle]

That was the hardest part for me, too. The fact that he kept stating he was shot in the head and that he just wanted to sleep. Even if he hadn't been shot in the head, any head injury followed by "just let me sleep" needs medical attention immediately.

[u/LuxNocte → u/fakawfbro]

You misspelled "All".

[u/fakawfbro → u/LuxNocte]

I avoid that rhetoric no matter how much truth might be in it because it’s the exact rhetoric used by loud and proud bigots. We should be able to promote policing reform without stooping to the level of an uneducated anti-Semite.

[u/SeamlessR → u/fakawfbro]

Cops aren't a race, a religion, a sexual orientation, or a skin color. They're a job, they're a choice, and they're all bastards.

[u/fakawfbro → u/SeamlessR]

Would you support those who hate prostitutes? That’s a job, not a religion or race.

I think you’re being dismissive of how culture, family, and yes, even noble intentions, factor into some people’s decision to pursue policing as a career. Agree to disagree. I’m an ally but I’ll never support generalizing rhetoric which contributes nothing but sparing you from the headache of morally grey thinking. That’s lazy as hell and far more destructive than necessary. The fact that you need to run down the list of things policing isn’t purely to separate yourself from being comparable to a bigot should tell you a lot about the issues with what you’re arguing.

[u/ncvbn → u/fakawfbro]

Wouldn't the more apt parallel be pimps? I suppose it's possible that there are some virtuous pimps out there, but it seems credible enough that all pimps are bastards.

[u/fakawfbro → u/ncvbn]

More so going for the comparison of career choice somehow determining someone’s morality. Plenty of people look down on prostitutes for being prostitutes, something I imagine most ACAB adherents would look down on… but both groups are looking down on those careers because of the reality of what its labor entails, not anything to do with the actual human behind the labor. Pimps I think would be an unfair comparison because they’re generally predatory and have next to no capacity to do good, whereas cops often do good (just not systemically). Like, the cop going to play basketball down at the community center is a bastard because of the institution? The cop standing in a courtroom keeping a douchebag murderer from acting out and hurting more innocent people is a bastard? Sounds like lazy thinking to me, idk

[u/ncvbn → u/fakawfbro]

Pimps I think would be an unfair comparison because they’re generally predatory and have next to no capacity to do good

Isn't this the exact kind of "generalizing rhetoric" you were criticizing?

[u/fakawfbro → u/ncvbn]

You just said it would be a better comparison, but alright, lol. Sure, let’s explore that. I didn’t say all pimps, but sure. For the record, saying “generally” is actually the opposite of generalization, ironically, because it’s acknowledging there are exceptions to what’s being said. Saying ALL x are x is a generalization, but is not the same as saying “all x are generally x”. Important distinction. Let’s pretend that’s not the case for conversation’s sake though.

Pimps, through their existence, take money from those who have earned it through selling their bodies. There’s also a high correlation, obviously, between pimping and sex trafficking, not just of adults but also of minors. The pimping “profession” exists outside the bounds of the law, and is essentially, in its absolute best forms, an extrajudicial form of vigilantism meant to prevent abuse of sex workers through financial and sexual abuse. In clearer terms, sex workers get protection from strangers in exchange for not being protected from their pimp’s abuse. Through prostitute’s work, pimps are enriched.

Cops are a publicly funded institution that has been put into power through democratic processes. They have regulations, governmental oversight (not nearly enough though, don’t get me wrong), and training (often not good training, again). Policing can do harm and can also be improved, but systemically speaking sometimes strays into useful territory. Police solve crimes on occasion, save lives on occasion, do good on occasion. Their abuse of law-abiding citizens is considered an anomaly and, when justice is done, will be punished harshly by the law. Pimps’ abuse, meanwhile, is the cost of their protection.

In my view, there’s more than enough clear distinctions between the professions to consider them wildly different things. Judging people based on their choice of career as some sort of morally enlightened arbiter is what I’m criticizing - but that doesn’t mean you can’t acknowledge the systemic reality of what that career entails. If the line was “cops are generally bastards,” I’d have no issue whatsoever with that rhetoric. That’s not what it is, though. It’s a willfully childish generalization of what the situation actually is, refusing to acknowledge exceptions, cultural circumstance, and the ethical complexities inherent in society needing some form of policing to prevent complete anarchy and, put bluntly, to prevent a rapist’s or murderer’s paradise from forming.

[u/ncvbn → u/fakawfbro]

1. You seem to be assuming that generalizations must be exceptionless. But that's not true. There are exceptionless generalizations and there are generalizations that admit of exceptions. Both are generalizations.

2. I did indeed say it would be a better comparison: cops are far more like pimps (predators) than like prostitutes (prey). You yourself have no issue with "cops are generally bastards" and you say that pimps are generally predatory. But I don't know of anyone in this conversation who thinks that prostitutes are predatory bastards, as opposed to victims of predatory bastards. So I don't know how you can avoid agreeing that cops are more like pimps than like prostitutes.

3. The bulk of what you write is about what differences there might be between cops and pimps. But even if you were 100% right, that obviously wouldn't do anything to undermine my point that cops are more like pimps than like prostitutes. There can be significant differences between cops and pimps, and still the cop-pimp comparison would be in much much better shape than the cop-prostitute comparison you were suggesting.

4. I think you're exaggerating the differences between cops and pimps ("wildly different things"). When you write that "Their abuse of law-abiding citizens is considered an anomaly and, when justice is done, will be punished harshly by the law" the parts in bold seem calculated to distort things. After all, abuse is abuse, and the case of pimps clearly illustrates that mainly abusing people who aren't law-abiding citizens doesn't keep you from being a predatory bastard. Moreover, it doesn't matter what's considered an anomaly; what matters is what is an anomaly. Finally, what happens when justice is done is of little relevance seeing as how justice is rarely done.

5. I really don't understand how you can criticize "Judging people based on their choice of career as some sort of morally enlightened arbiter", given what you say about pimps. You're definitely judging them based on their choice of career. It's definitely a moral judgment that presupposes your possession of at least a certain degree of moral enlightenment: enough to tell whether a certain career is blamably predatory. And as a judgment it definitely presupposes that you the judger occupy the role of arbiter. Of course, "as some sort of morally enlightened arbiter" sounds like it involves an arrogant claim to have an exceptional degree of moral enlightenment and to occupy an exceptional position of authority; but I don't see how anyone in this conversation could be credibly accused of having made that kind of arrogant claim.

[u/SeamlessR → u/fakawfbro]

Would you support those who hate prostitutes

No, because prostitutes aren't uniformed officers of law enforcement.

I think you’re being dismissive of how culture, family, and yes, even noble intentions, factor into some people’s decision to pursue policing as a career

I am not being dismissive, I am being real: police culture is terrible, police families are harmed 4x higher than non cop families by their cop spouses, and noble intentions are stupid and people who bring that up to defend what they're doing are only doing that because they have no other defense for what they're doing and should feel stupid.

Agree to disagree. I’m an ally but I’ll never support generalizing rhetoric which contributes nothing but sparing you from the headache of morally grey thinking.

You are not an ally. You are muddying waters by attempting to conflate being a cop with being anything that the word "bigot" applies to, which are referred to as "protected classes"

The fact that you need to run down the list of things policing isn’t purely to separate yourself from being comparable to a bigot should tell you a lot about the issues with what you’re arguing.

I felt the need to run down the list of "protected classes" that cops are not (there are more protected classes than what I listed, cops still aren't on that list) because the things you say indicate you need to be run down the list of things cops are not. Since you seem to think ACAB is on the order of traditional bigotry. It is not.

[u/throwaw4y1211 → u/fakawfbro]

And they were hired FOR their personality traits. All cops, all politicians, all CEOs.