The scrutiny and double standards is exactly why Sam gives back the shield in "Falcon and The Winter Soldier"

[u/Extension-While7536]

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/disney-marvel-captain-america-brave-new-world-politics-1236122701/

Bucky's line "I don't think we realized what it actually meant for a black man to hold the shield" was his sign that he understood the greater scrutiny, racism and double standards that Sam would encounter. Same as the shit Mackie's facing now.

EDIT: Anyone who criticizes FATWS however justly for its faults, can we not give Marvel some credit for hearing our demands and giving us an hourlong loop of Zemo dancing within DAYS of the episode? I mean c'mon that's fan service.

[u/adrian-alex85]

Do you feel like the Black/Racial elements being explored in FatWS hit as hard as the themes in Black Panther?

I don't want to make an unfair comparison, but my feeling when I left Black Panther the first time (and the subsequent 4 times I saw it in theaters) was that it was unquestionably a Black film. Black characters, dealing with Black issues, granting the audience a look into a Black world and even all of the subtle/systemic issues that come with it.

While I think FatWS was a perfectly enjoyable show, I did not think its stories surrounding Sam and Isaiah were as well defined. There was more implicit things within them than explicit. Meaning that for those of us who live racialized/marginalized lives within these systems, we see what Sam and Isaiah are going through and relate immediately because it so clearly reflects our experiences of the world. But for a larger audience who doesn't live those lives, some of those stories (like Sam's money problems) just play as one-off jokes or something you can overlook. They aren't as front and center as Bucky's search for forgiveness for example. So it's not that I don't think those messages were there, it's just that I'm questioning if they were made obvious enough for a racist to understand. And let's all remember that racists are very stupid people.

But, to be fair to the show, I've also only watched it once back when it was airing new, so my memory might be faulty too.

[u/wandrin_star → u/adrian-alex85]

I think you nailed something, but maybe there’s an additional perspective I can offer.

Black Panther was a revelatory movie because it was a Black movie that centered Black experiences and wasn’t about how Black people deal with White racism. It was almost shocking because of how joyful it was to not have a Hollywood narrative about Africa presented to - especially - American audiences which wasn’t about colonialism (or maybe eventually was about the possibility of Wakandan revolutionary anti-colonialism). That hit home for everyone, in addition to just being a total gem of a movie.

In addition to getting nowhere near the love & attention of BP, FatWS was a buddy show and, as much as Sam was the leader and one of the centers of it, the central perspective is more Bucky’s. FatWS is more a movie about the White people learning about how racist the U.S. is, and growing up in our relationship to America’s racist past and present and ongoing racism. Yes, eventually Sam chooses to take up the mantle anyways because doing so is preferable to him than the alternative, but that’s about him deciding - while it’s not his job, and he doesn’t owe it to anyone to do so, certainly not after the bank scene - he will take up the Captain America mantle because he chooses to remind America of both the real meaning of Captain America AND the US’s (ongoing) history, and therefore its obligations to address the ways we fall short of meeting the ideals that we hold dear.

That second part is a Black story, yes, but a) I would argue Bucky is still the more central perspective, and the show even centers John Walker’s perspective at times, so the show feels more like 2/3 White (Battlestar doesn’t get nearly the love, RIP) b) even the portions of the show that are about the experience of being Black in the U.S. (or Madripoor or wherever) aren’t really covering so much new ground as existing to remind the audience & the White characters of what being Black in the U.S. entails, even for someone who is a beloved and famous figure and c) the whole of it seems more designed to for White audiences to learn from than to speak to Black audiences. Or at least that’s the perspective of this Wonder Bread (White) American.

ETA: for me as a White guy who does a lot of thinking and work (mostly on myself) around anti-racism, that bank scene was totally predictable (including the selfie request or whatever) but INTENSELY painful to watch and really hit home. Ditto the Isaiah conversation. The only thing surprising (or perhaps I should say, unbelievable) about it was that Sam didn’t know what I sensed as soon as he came to the door: that Isaiah was treated like garbage by the U.S. I could only chalk that up to Sam’s service since - and I say this without meaning to diminish how racist the U.S. military still is - my understanding is that even with all its racism, the U.S. military has actually been more progressive than U.S. society as a whole at many different points throughout our history (and then we can talk about why that mostly has to do with how White power structures intentionally value Black, indigenous, and Pacific Islanders more highly within the context of military service than in broader society in order to serve a racist agenda).

Second edit: I reread the “for a racist to understand” part & I agree with you BUT a racist can sometimes feel something off, feel uncomfortable, not get it, and know that there’s something not right. I’d argue that discomfort is a form of (useful but not decisive) education… which could lead to the anti-woke review bombing garbage (which I think has happened to all of Marvel’s WONDERFUL and underrated feminism-centering movies).

[u/adrian-alex85 → u/wandrin_star]

 I reread the “for a racist to understand” part & I agree with you BUT a racist can sometimes feel something off, feel uncomfortable, not get it, and know that there’s something not right. I’d argue that discomfort is a form of (useful but not decisive) education

I agree with everything you're saying, but I do think at the core we're talking about different people. You acknowledge that you do "a lot of thinking and work (mostly on myself) around anti-racism," which means you are not who I'm talking about. By the very nature of that admission, you're already ahead of where all of the people we're talking about are in this regard. You already understand that racism isn't about personal animus between two people, that someone doesn't have to use the N word to be a racist, that racism is systemic. The people who are complaining about there being a Black Captain America are not at the same place in their understanding, which is precisely why discomfort alone is not actually a useful teaching method for them.

When someone who believes in White Supremacy is made to feel uncomfortable with a racial story, do they tend to respond to that discomfort with curiosity, an open mind, and the ability to interrogate that discomfort, or do they seek answers that confirm their already existing worldview and thereby soothe that discomfort with the same comfortable fiction they already believe?

I agree with you that FatWS was way more interested in presenting its story for a white audience than BP was. But my point is that it was always that intention that stopped it from being able to make its points in a manner that would allow that portion of its audience to say "Oh shit, the way we're judging Mackie for making the exact same point Evans made about the character is clearly an indication of the deeper racial themes and messages of the show!" If they wanted the audience to make those kinds of connections, then I think they would have needed to spell out some of those themes more directly (much the same way that BP did).

What the show does and how it makes its point is good enough for you and me (which is at least partially why we are not part of the crowd giving Mackie shit for anything he's said), but it was not good enough for the rest of the audience, or perhaps just not this minority group of the audience. And I think you can argue that nothing the show could have done would have helped that particular group of people learn a deeper lesson they could apply to their own lives, and I would think that's a fair argument to make. But here we are, and my core point is that if we're questioning why the section of the audience that's being loud right now is being loud in spite of the deeper message of the show, then some part of the blame for why that is (imo) rests with the show and how they told their story. Not the least of which being trying to cram so many big ideas into a tight 6 episodes. There's a reason effective TV has long been closer to 12 hours of runtime than 6. When you dip your toe into these subjects rather than immerse in them exclusively, you have to be prepared for some number of people to just miss the deeper point entirely.

[u/wandrin_star → u/adrian-alex85]

I really appreciate the care you put into saying that, and I had to read it over a number of times. Thanks.

I have been trying to be glass-half-full at Marvel for trying to help me & my pasty brethren evolve, but I did miss your more fundamental point that they bit off more than they could successfully chew in 6 episodes. That's certainly true & fair.

I have held off on criticizing because of the pandemic rewrites, gratitude that Marvel are (or seem like they are) leveraging their platform for good (obv. it's still capitalism, yadda yadda), and I fucking love Mackie, Sebastian Stan, dude who plays Zemo, the Russell kid's Walker, and even the inclusion of the therapy session (hey! a little side-takedown of toxic masculinity / toxic invulnerability! fuck yeah!).

I think we agree that the hardcore racists & the (softcore?) folks not doing the work to even hear about systemic racism aren't getting reached in useful ways. Where maybe we agree, maybe not, is that I think it may have reached both the Nice White racists (who don't consider themselves racist, are open to the concept of systemic racism in institutions & structurally, but aren't sold yet on the concept, at least not broadly, despite overwhelming evidence b/c they're mostly tuned into mainstream media / culture) & us Anti-Racist White folks (who I still see as racists b/c anti-racism is collective liberation and we won't be done until White supremacy is at an end, so... never? not in the foreseeable future? not in my lifetime?). I think FatWS did something for those White racists, at least to some extent, and that's a good thing, even if we weren't reached as skillfully or as deeply as you or I would like.

I guess I just want to give FatWS some credit for doing something for those bands of White folks, but you're pointing out (totally reasonably) that lots of the people who seemed like maybe they were reachable (Marvel fans, White, not clued into stuff), are the same ones missing the point when it comes to Mackie. That's incontrovertible.

And yet, and maybe you actually agree with me, here, expecting Marvel to have storytold so well that us White people avoid hopping on the internet to show our whole lily-white asses was and is beyond my wildest hopes for their success. Or even succeeding with just those of us who claim to love comic book Falcon-Cap (not me, I haven't really kept up with comics since the Rob Liefeld-era).

I feel like the folks giving Mackie shit are the same ones who claim to love Carol from the comics, but unironically state that they hate how little Brie Larson smiles in her first movie. I don't know, but I'm guessing a lot of them also hated when she sang, danced, and smiled a lot in The Marvels. I may not be able to tell whether those folks are lying about how racist they are (almost certainly), lying about their love for Marvel & Black or female characters, or lying about watching and thinking deeply about the movies they critique. I just maybe feel like we're asking Marvel to do too much to convert those critics who aren't lying about how plugged in and persuadable they are.

[u/Curiouso_Giorgio → u/adrian-alex85]

I think you're right that Black Panther was a black film.

I think TFATWS was an American show about Americans and American issues, with some extra focus on black ones.

[u/adrian-alex85 → u/Curiouso_Giorgio]

Just to be clear: I’m not saying FatWS needed to be a Black show. Just that I don’t think the Black issues within it are depicted in a way that allows their themes to come through as clearly as needed.

You say they put “extra focus on Black” issues. I would 1) disagree with that point in general. I think they put equal focus on all the issues at play, thereby stopping any one of them from gaining the needed focus. and 2) point out that if it’s an American show then there would be no need for it to put any extra focus on Black issues because Black issues are as integral to America as any other issues.

Either way it boils down to the same thing: I think FatWS was capable of acknowledging the racial issues at play, but failed to really land that plane in an impactful manner. Which is what has led to people missing that message and engaging with this moment in the news cycle in such a tone deaf way.

[u/Curiouso_Giorgio → u/[deleted]]

Indeed.

[u/Dlh2079 → u/adrian-alex85]

I don't think fatws had any intention of being a "black show". I think it wanted to be an American show that at least partially focus on the racial issues in the country that involve black people.

Whereas Black Panther had every intention of being that.

I don't know that it's an unfair comparison perse, but I do think the 2 were going for different things.

[u/cap4life52 → u/adrian-alex85]

I think Your second to last paragraph nails - that message and subtext was absolutely vital to the show if you missed that then show could fall flat for you whether or not you like that message or not . The flagsmasher main plot didn't satisfy alot of people

[u/_NINESEVEN → u/adrian-alex85]

Do you feel like the Black/Racial elements being explored in FatWS hit as hard as the themes in Black Panther?

Personally, I feel like this accentuates the whole message of the show.

I don't think that FatWS, and more generally, Captain America, are Black stories. Sam is the person taking up the mantle of Captain America and he just so happens to be black. What should be a relatively simple leap (Steve, a beloved superhero -> Sam, a beloved superhero) turns messy exclusively due to skin color. In an ideal anti-racist society, there would be no story here because (again, ideally) there is nothing Black or White about Captain America.

However, the fact that Sam is black isn't ideal for a lot of people. There is a whole host of undertones that need to be addressed/explained now that a lot of people in America (in-universe and irl) aren't interested in being a part of. It makes the story, narratively, "messy" -- because a fundamentally non-racial thing is now racial. The public in FatWS don't want to debate the merits of a black Captain America and don't want to confront the fact that they were more comfortable with a white successor.

I feel like this is the whole idea behind people who say "stop making white characters black, just make new black characters" and is far more systemic and difficult to address! If the new Captain America was white, then people who harbor racial biases aren't forced to confront themselves. They can either 1) ignore new black characters/superheroes that they aren't interested, or 2) define them as "black superheroes" instead of just "superheroes" (in the vein that, in universe, MCU Falcon is known as a black superhero whereas Captain America is just known as a superhero.. not a white superhero).

• Do I think that a show that focused entirely on the difficulty of taking up Cap's mantle and dealing with the Flagsmashers could've been less "messy" and more thematically-concise? Yeah!

• Do I think that a show that was focused entirely on Falcon/Isaiah and the experiences of BIPOC Americans (both super- and not) could've also been less "messy" and more thematically-concise? Also yeah!

However, the amalgamation of both stories above, to me, is much more real and related to what actually happens in our society. Intersectionality prevents us from wrapping a nice little bow around these things and cordoning them off into "BIPOC stories" and "other stories" because we can't expect every show/movie with a BIPOC lead to be exclusively about BIPOC struggles. That turns those actors into one dimensional caricatures. However, it's a little head-in-the-sand to assume that a story with a BIPOC lead won't have any storylines related to their identity, because that's what would happen in real life.

I'm sure Sam would've been much more interested initially in being Captain America if he lived in this perfect, ideal, anti-racist society that wouldn't harbor any bad feelings about his succession due to his skin color. But that's obviously a fantasy.

Ultimately, to me, it comes down to the prevailing theme that [White] society doesn't like to make room for Black stories and experiences -- not because we want to truly champion them in their own spaces and rights -- but because we'd like the option to ignore them and just enjoy our superheroes as "normal/non-controversial" (read: white men) superheroes.

[u/charlesfluidsmith → u/adrian-alex85]

I agree with you. It didn't feel like a black show at all.

[u/Local_Nerve901 → u/adrian-alex85]

Didnt read but first line

Don’t compare, what do you think on its own. Thats how it should be done