r/marvelstudios • u/Separate-Driver-8639 • 1d ago
Discussion The fact that this matchup is not impossible is crazy to me Spoiler
Of course I don't think it will happen.
I don't think it should.
Not without some massive setup of why these two forces should even be brought back and meet.
But a story of, for example, the Phoenix force being resurrected and Doctor Strange being like: "the only way for us to defeat her is to bring back the Scarlet Witch, so they cancel each other out" is kinda cool to think about.
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u/FriendlyDrummers 1d ago
Wasted what if potential
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u/_Levitated_Shield_ Ant-Man 1d ago
Can't be wasted if Doomsday and Secret Wars haven't happened yet.
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u/Big_NipsTheGreat 1d ago
Am I wrong in thinking Jean would wreck Wanda’s shit?
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u/ShadowMerlyn 1d ago
At least in these movies, Wanda was way more powerful than Jean. Jean in The Last Stand was a very powerful telekinetic but didn’t do anything near as impressive as when Wanda killed the Illuminati or attacked Kamar Taj.
Wanda wasn’t as destructive when she did it as her attacks were much more precise than Jean, but she could’ve wrecked Kamar Taj as much as Jean wrecked Alcatraz island if she had wanted to.
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u/Razatiger 1d ago
The Scarlet Witch just isn't on the power level of the Phoenix force which is a cosmic entity like Galactus.
Now if it's just Wanda V Jean, then maybe Wanda can use some chaos magic and best Jeans Telekinetic powers.
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u/ShadowMerlyn 1d ago
I’m inclined to agree with you, but the Phoenix Force in that movie was incomparable with the version from the comics
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u/OSUfirebird18 1d ago
Nope. Completely agree. Phoenix Force has more raw power. Wanda can bend reality but it seems to take more focus and time where Jean can just blow Wanda away in that time frame.
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u/toxicity21 1d ago edited 1d ago
Comic Spoilers for Avengers vs X-Men:
In that, Wanda alone wasn't enough to beat Phoenix Cyclops, she needed the help of Hope Summers, a Mutant able to copy and amplify the power of Mutants (Wanda was still a Mutant back then) around her. So it took two amplified "Scarlet Witches" to beat a Dark Phoenix.
And in my understanding that Phoenix Cyclops is still a weaker user of the Force than someone who was actually meant to become a genuine Phoenix, like Jean Grey or Hope Summers.
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u/mkontrov 1d ago
That was my thought, too. I'm not super familiar with Wanda in the comics but the DF can consume fucking stars for crying out loud.
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u/chesterforbes Foggy Nelson 1d ago
Just do a movie called “Action Figure Dump” and just have everyone fight each other. No story needed, no dialogue. Just let them all fight each other battle royale style. Just make sure we don’t have someone like Falcon go up against the Phoenix or Scarlet Witch. Make it fair.
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u/Separate-Driver-8639 1d ago
If either of them gets Falcon then that's unfair, we should add someone to balace it out. Maybe Howard the Duck?
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u/G7Scanlines 1d ago
These two shots side by side show how much Disney missed the mark with MoM.
Those rare shots of Wanda being messed up (reaching through mirrors) should have been far more consistent throughout. When Phoenix appeared, looking like it did, you knew things were going to go badly. I never got that with Wanda in MoM.
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u/Nicotecu 1d ago
While I kind of agree with your point, I think Phoenix was so much worse handled. I mean, Wanda was a villain in MoM, even though it was way too abrupt, but Jean was even worse because she was just possessed. They took her agency away through all the film, she didn't even have a plan, she just went with Magneto and then they let her die so Wolverine could grieve. Man, she killed Scott and Charles for no reason. At least Wanda was a full on villain with a plan.
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u/MrSeanSir2 1d ago
The discourse out here so bad it got people saying The Last Stand, a dreadful film, is better than Multiverse of Madness
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u/Nicotecu 1d ago
It is specially insulting when you remember that it is trying to adapt the Dark Phoenix Saga, one of the best comics ever made (in my opinion). I mean, Claremont took one of the most archetypical "girls of the group", turned her into an awesome character and, when they finally adapt it, they turn Jean again into a romantic interest with no agency. I consider it the worst superhero movie I have ever seen because it is incredible how they missed the point of the story they try to adapt.
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u/staplerbot 1d ago
I prefer the more recent adaptation Dark Phoenix to Last Stand just because Last Stand had so much build-up after the wonderful X2 that my expectations were much higher. Plus, at least Dark Phoenix has some memorable scenes, Last Stand has the one scene of Magneto displacing the Golden Gate bridge and the rest of it is so dull and boring with such callous disrespect for some of the characters (poor Cyclops) that it feels like the Secret Invasion of the Fox X-Men universe.
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u/Nicotecu 20h ago
I also prefer the Dark Phoenix. I don't think it is good either, kind of hit or miss with the characters (Charles, Hank, Erik and even Raven carried hard, but Ororo, Scott and specially Kurt were truly terrible in my opinion), but at least Jean was much better handled. It is like a 6 for me out of 10.
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u/Top_Star_3897 1d ago
Yeah Phoenix in that movie made no sense. So she was activated and always inside Jean and she also decides to just follow Magneto until the end of the movie? At least that final scene with Wolverine was cool.
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u/sbstndrks 1d ago
The plot just happens and she's just kinda there. Just chilling, until it's time to fuck up the prison isle and get tummy clawed.
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u/a_dumb_pumpkin 1d ago
These two shots side by side cannot show how Disney missed the mark with MoM………..since the first one isn’t even from MoM
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u/unclecaveman1 1d ago
That picture isn’t from MoM it’s from Wandavision. She’s not supposed to look messed up in this image.
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u/Separate-Driver-8639 1d ago edited 1d ago
And she killed Charles in a visceral way.
As brutal as it is, I think if scarlet witch just took out Wong it would do wonders for the story. It would make her truly irredeemable and complex, and keeping him dead would set up some consequences in the marvel cinematic universe.
EDIT: Its good to be right sometimes :)
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u/PikaV2002 Scarlet Witch 1d ago
truly irredeemable and complex
Wanda was corrupted by the Darkhold when doing all this, so she’d just be irredeemable as Bucky 🤷
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u/Nightingdale099 1d ago
she’d just be irredeemable as Bucky 🤷
So therapy session at Wakanda's campfire?
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u/PikaV2002 Scarlet Witch 1d ago
To be fair Wanda would have been fine if literally ANYONE checked on her and signed her up for therapy post Endgame.
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u/radioactivejason2004 1d ago
Well I mean Cap would’ve probably, idk if Tony would’ve, Black Widow would’ve, Thor left the planet, Vision was dead, no excuse for Banner, Hawkeye I guess focused on his family (which is fair), the rest of the avengers idk if they ever really interacted with her that much.
Most of the people she was friends with kinda like died.
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u/JBTriple 1d ago edited 1d ago
Hawkeye was like her main guy, though. If some random woman in his old costume could spend Christmas with them, I'm sure Wanda could've spent a few weeks on the couch or something while she got her life back together.
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u/radioactivejason2004 1d ago
Well I mean to be 100% fair, Hawkeye just got his entire family back. I wouldn’t really blame him for focusing on making the absolute most of them being back.
But I do see what you’re saying. I also feel that Bruce could have like stopped by or something. Yeah her and hulk likely barely hung out/talked but like they were both at least at one point avengers.
I really do think that if Cap, Tony, or Widow had not died at least one of them would have stopped by and talked with her/ helped her. Sadly I think it’s a bit realistic that people who face depression often don’t get noticed/want to be noticed (she never really reached out to them either).
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u/JBTriple 1d ago
Bruce I get. He went to space immediately after she joined the team, and she dusted as soon as he came back. The only interactions they've had were the ones shown on screen.
Rhodey and Sam were her teammates, though. Maybe not the closest, but they at least have the "new recruits" thing in common and went on missions together for a year or so.
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1d ago
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u/PikaV2002 Scarlet Witch 1d ago
Wanda was brainwashed as well, she had already grieved her children and moved on. The Darkhold canonically corrupts and brainwashes people into believing delusions. How the Darkhold brainwashed her is with her needs and desires, but it doesn’t make it any different. The Darkhold finds a way to corrupt you no matter what.
She’d have gone on a murder spree even if she didn’t want children and had a perfectly healthy home life.
The poor execution in the movie has led to this huge misunderstanding about her character arc.
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u/Separate-Driver-8639 1d ago
Ok if this is the case then the movie did not set that up well. Also, if that is the case then its a shame, because the fact that Wanda did it for some twisted reason that was at least partially under her control made her much more interesting. Its at least an exploration of delusion through grief and how far motherly instincts can make you justify atrocities. If its just "she was not in control at all because she was completely brainwashed to the point of being a mindless drone" then its a shame.
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u/PikaV2002 Scarlet Witch 1d ago
The movie explains this multiple times, for some reason online communities just skip on that. Strange says this multiple times and Wanda literally kills herself out of horror the moment she breaks out of the corruption.
The MoM team wanted a monster for a horror movie, not a human. They decided to butcher Wanda’s arc for that because it was easy and cool.
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1d ago
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u/MrSeanSir2 1d ago edited 1d ago
If she was completely detached it would be pretty boring and completely lacking in character. The darkhold has amplified her state of mind. She was completely detached originally in Wandavision, but later became aware.
If you'd like an idea of how boring it would be if she was completely detached you should check out this film called "X-Men: The Last Stand"
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u/PikaV2002 Scarlet Witch 1d ago
Wanda has the Darkhold and the Darkhold has her
It’s a movie, not a children’s book. They won’t spell out every single plot point flatly for you. Strange writes her original personality off as a lost cause the moment it’s revealed she’s been corrupted.
Not to mention you can literally see her attitude do a 180 once she’s confronted with her kids. That’s the corruption breaking.
Someone can be brainwashed and still be conscious during their actions. Pretty sure Hydra would prefer it that way if that had the tech too.
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u/A_Serious_House 1d ago
You don’t think a murderous rampage where she took out countless people while actively trying to murder a child counts as irredeemable and complex? Killing Wong goes too far and leans into shock value. His death would just be another body on the pile and he’d be fridged for Strange’s sake.
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u/messesz 1d ago
Well Bucky killed millions over his years brainwashed. Captain Marvel did a load of killing for the kree while she was brainwashed.
So pretty much anyone brainwashed is not irredeemable by that standard.
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u/A_Serious_House 1d ago
I agree, I don’t personally think it’s irredeemable but I think the argument is there. Someone on drugs is still responsible, to some extent, for a crime they commit while high.
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u/Top_Star_3897 1d ago
I thought this would happen back when the Multiverse of Madness trailer released because when Captain Marvel was in a blurry shot of the trailer, I thought it would be Nova but hoped for Dark Phoenix so we could see Wanda fight Jean.
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u/purpleElephants01 1d ago
That's one way to stop and incursion. Would be an awesome fight to see as well!
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u/plop45 1d ago
Has it been done in the comics ?
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u/Separate-Driver-8639 1d ago
In one X men storyline Scarlet Witch and Hope Summers team up and defeat Dark Phoenix Cyclops (after he's absorbed all the Phoenix energy).
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u/Electro_Llama 1d ago
Here is a thread from many years ago discussing this matchup for the comic versions.
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u/impuritor 1d ago
They made a whole movie retconning out X-Men 3. It will never be acknowledged again. Rightfully.
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u/randmperson2 1d ago
Did I hallucinate or wasn’t there a story about this head to head supposedly happening in Deadpool & Wolverine..?
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u/Strict-Farmer904 1d ago
I honestly think Olsen would be the hold out. She seems to just openly hate Marvel at this point. Just seems to be the vibe
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u/ShinySuicune90 1d ago
Just once MCU needs to go all out and have a fight where cosmic level fighters are chucking planets at each other