The Biggest Scandal of the Second Trump Term Isn’t “Signalgate” | The national-security chat debacle certainly merits attention. But the Trump administration is now blatantly disappearing students and others who are in the country legally.

[u/Murky-Site7468]

https://newrepublic.com/article/193291/trump-disappearing-students-rumeysa-ozturk-rubio-biggest-scandal

[u/UpperApe]

I can not believe the excuses Americans come up with to NOT flood the streets and every city legislature across the country.

Like what the fuck are they all waiting for? If this isn't it, what is?

[u/picohenries → u/UpperApe]

I think you’re heavily overestimating the number of Americans who strongly oppose this administration. 30% supported him, 30% opposed him, and 40% don’t give a shit about anything. That final group is also generally anti-protest.

People feel alone, so the decision becomes “do I risk losing my career and healthcare to engage in protest that a majority of Americans will oppose?” I’m not defending it, but it’s obvious why the minority are reluctant to protest, particularly when those protests don’t feel impactful.

[u/ikatako38 → u/picohenries]

Also. This is purely anecdotal but even though 30% oppose him, probably at least 20% of that still think things are “not that bad.” My boyfriend keeps trying to tell me how life feels exactly the same and nothing’s actually changed, and he gets mad at me any time I try to bring up politics. He not only voted for Kamala Harris but even went to vote in person after not receiving the mail-in ballot he had applied for. Even my friend who worked on the campaign blames Kamala’s campaign for her loss and is just kind of resigned to everything. This is the opinion of the vast majority of Dem voters. “It’s not actually that bad.” I’m actually the only person I know who even seems to be taking any of this seriously.

So we have maybe 10% of the population who thinks something even needs to be done about this. 20% neutral, and 70% actively opposing protest. And then you have to divide that 10% into people who think protests aren’t the answer, people who are scared they they themselves will get disappeared, people who are afraid of being fired, people who don’t have transportation, hell people who aren’t even in the country right now like me.

I’m not at all surprised it’s such a minuscule amount after all that.

Even if you can get that 10% all out protesting at the same time, they’ll be facing at least 30% of the population counterprotesting, and 70% on the side of the counterprotesters. And then you get martial law, and we all disappear.

And every now and then I get this thought in my head that’s just like… if we really are only 10% of the population or less… what if I am actually wrong. Like what if I’m actually just genuinely insane. It would make more sense than 90% of the country just completely ignoring or cheering on fascist takeover right?

[u/UpperApe → u/picohenries]

No, the decision becomes "do I keep my head down while the Nazis disappear people?".

A decision another country famously had to wrestle with, if you recall.

[u/picohenries → u/UpperApe]

Yes, but I already agree with you. The issue is a vast majority of Americans would think you’re being hysterical and overreacting with that comment. If you were to engage in any form of protest beyond holding signs at a street corner, the average American would oppose you. So then what? Genuinely asking.

[u/UpperApe → u/picohenries]

So then what?

Mass protests. In every city legislature across the country. Everywhere. Consistently. Obviously.

If you don't understand what that'll do, you don't understand democracy, governments, or history.

[u/SirenSongShipwreck → u/UpperApe]

You're clearly not even trying to understand what the other person is saying here and are far more concerned with shouting from your soap box for the two seconds of dopamine before posting the comment. They're asking you to put yourself in the shoes of others on an individual basis and you continue to crow back with actions you could never take. "You" can not initiate a mass protest, across the country, everywhere, consistently. It sure feels good to say but completely ignores what you were actually asked, which didn't even mention other prohibitive conditions like so many Americans living paycheck to paycheck or worse, meaning getting fired or missing work for striking or protesting will ruin them - which I know is no excuse to you, clearly. Because if it were you, you'd do it anyway and your noble sacrifice would somehow be repaid, those people are just apathetic and stupid, right? You can't speak for a giant disparate group of people, this isn't a videogame. Markus-bot isn't going to start tapping shoulders and freeing minds to join the cause. It's reality and these people are going to have to lose everything before anything like what you've described happens. And that's coming from someone who does agree there should be mass protests and a general strike, or more.

[u/picohenries → u/SirenSongShipwreck]

Thank you, I started to lose my mind over here thinking I had forgotten how to use words or something.

[u/UpperApe → u/picohenries]

Oh I see. You weren't actually asking. You were just looking for these kinds of bullshit excuses.

[u/plasticstranger → u/UpperApe]

Since you seem to be an expert in protest, educate me. Do I just start marching down the street and hope for the best? Or do I try to network and create an incriminating paper trail for everyone involved?

Do I head to DC? My state capitol? Or do I just stand on a street corner and holler at whoever will listen?

And what do I protest? Where do I start? Deportations? Flaunting the rule of law? Naked aggression against our allies? All of it?

Obviously you have the answers because you’re so content being condescending to those who don’t.

[u/picohenries → u/UpperApe]

Look I have no idea at this point if you’re serious or if you’re just trying to win an argument on the internet, but I’m just going to leave with this: if you’re genuinely interested in building a mass movement, then insulting people’s intelligence isn’t the way to do it.

I largely agree with you and still I’m put off by your inflammatory and condescending language. Now imagine the average American who doesn’t agree with you, and that’s who you’re trying to get to protest in mass.

[u/UpperApe → u/picohenries]

There are two inflammatory, condescending, insulting comments here.

One is furious that America is hurting their country and ruining the world. The other is an American furious that someone is telling them to do something about it.

One of us you're very upset with. The other one you're thanking.

Food for thought.

[u/ThinkyRetroLad → u/[deleted]]

No, you're just not actually paying attention. I could go outside and leave my library job right now and begin protesting. What does that accomplish? Do you think people are just going to surround me and join in? No, I'm going to lose my job and possibly get arrested. People have been going to protests all over the country. We've made connections and seen those protests firsthand. Are you suggesting we storm the Capitol? Again, such a thing requires organization. I can't just drive over and start a protest. I will be alone; people aren't just going to see me and join in. So what do you actually expect the average person to do without that organization. Disorganized as a group, we are worthless, picked off one by one. We're trying to organize. To organize effectively you need some sort of leadership.

I want us all to go protest right the fuck now. It's not going to happen until the majority of people have no recourse, because most people aren't paying as much attention as I am, or the other posters in this thread.

[u/shmoozygoozy → u/UpperApe]

If you believe mass protests and popular movements spontaneously form under circumstances like this just because they're our only response, you don't understand democracy, governments, or history. As a matter of fact, just people doesn't make much of a demonstration. Protests are a demonstration of public will and strength and essentially operate as a threat against those in power. "don't be a fascist or else" doesn't have much teeth when only a tiny percent of people that are protesting are willing to do much more than passively walk on a sidewalk, and leftist political power is weaker than ever, meanwhile our center-right party just keeps ceding ground to the militant far right and making the left even weaker.

It takes organization. General strikes, student protests, the civil rights moment, tenant unions, whatever. Stuff can't really be forced to happen spontaneously, and a spontaneous event over a shared struggle (eg class struggle during Occupy) that doesn't produce any real, self-managing and aggressive organization with a program of direct action and community sputters out and fails to really achieve much, because its just words.

The extremely wealthy and powerful have been waging a war for decades straight on common people and our ability to organize ourselves to collectively bargain or hold the state and corporations accountable. Right now, we are on our way to collapse, and it is worthwhile to build up political power for the left and prepare for the coming collapse by focusing on creating structures to soften the impact on your local community and strengthen your local community for what will hopefully be a breaking point for them.

That said, as an American I'm not so optimistic Americans actually have a breaking point and without significant organizing it wouldn't be enough to get us out of this mess very cleanly.

It's so annoying how people think that they can just snap their fingers and make a mass movement occur.

[u/picohenries → u/UpperApe]

But that’s my point though - who’s attending the mass protests? It is a minority of Americans who oppose Trump enough to protest. Among that minority of Americans, many of them are wage slaves and would face immediate danger to their health and safety if they lose their job. My wife is a teacher, if she protests in any capacity she will lose her career and healthcare - what if she were a single mother with kids?

My point is, a mass protest isn’t going to happen unless that mass exists. It doesn’t right now. I think we would agree that building towards that mass is a necessary goal.

[u/iDownvoteToxicLeague → u/UpperApe]

I guess Americans don’t love freedom after all

[u/Grand_Size_4932 → u/iDownvoteToxicLeague]

Ah, see you’re confusing freedom with Freedom™ . Americans have had the definition of freedom completely twisted in front of them to get to this point. Americans simply have no idea what freedom actually means.

[u/iamdestroyerofworlds → u/Grand_Size_4932]

"It's just fiefdom with a modern spelling, right?"

[u/stasi_a → u/iDownvoteToxicLeague]

Freedom only in the form of 2A