r/science • u/informationtiger • Dec 18 '19

Chemistry Nicotine formula used by e-cigarette maker Juul is nearly identical to the flavor and addictive profile of Marlboro cigarettes

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-juul-ecigarettes-study-idUSKBN1YL26R
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u/sryyourpartyssolame Dec 18 '19

In terms of danger to one's health though, vaping is indisputably better for you than smoking, right? I smoke about a pack ever two weeks or so and I've been looking to make the switch but there's a lot of conflicting information out there. Is there longterm studies that prove vaping isn't harmful?

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u/thelizardkin Dec 18 '19

Yeah I thought although not great for you, that nicotine was far from the worst part about cigs.

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u/mcotter12 Dec 18 '19 edited Dec 18 '19

Yeah the article sort of glosses over it when they talk about cigarette companies adding chemicals to cigarettes, but those chemicals include rat poison and nail polish remover.. That said, pretty sure juul has trade secrets for their chemical composition

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u/thelizardkin Dec 18 '19

What do you mean by "nail polish remover" and "rat posion"? Because depending on the actual chemicals, that's a pretty meaningless phrase

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u/mcotter12 Dec 18 '19

Arsenic and acetone

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u/ObiWendigobi Dec 18 '19

You’re right that it isn’t the worst part of the cigarette but “not great for you” may be an understatement. Nicotine has an extremely low ld50. It used to be used as a very effective insecticide but was banned in the US as a pesticide because it was so dangerous to use.

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u/Nord_Star Dec 18 '19

LD50 is relatively low but not terribly far from caffeine, and LD50 in toxicology is not actually as useful as you might think. Acute toxicity doesn’t have much correlation with long term effects at low doses in general terms. Obviously this varies based on the chemical, as many factors such as metabolic rates, half-life and tissue deposition come into play. Nicotine has an elimination half-life in the body of only 2 hours and it’s active metabolite cotinine is only 16-18 hours.

Yeah you wouldn’t want to spill a jug of pure nicotine on your skin, but that’s not likely to happen to the average person. To suffer fatal levels of nicotine from vape juice you would essentially have to drink an entire bottle at once.

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u/ObiWendigobi Dec 18 '19

My mistake. Thanks for clarification.

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u/Yerx Dec 18 '19

Yes because you have to use high concentrations. I'd bet without looking it up that they still use nicotinamides. The problem is the addictiveness, if 2mg per kg from memory is the ld50, you would need to inject about 100mg to someone weaker than average. That is more than double an entire juul pod. Since people are talking about vodka, what do you think would happen to even the most seasoned drinker if he injected 2 bottles of vodka?

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u/pgm123 Dec 18 '19

Injecting that much alcohol would kill you. It would bypass the stomach and liver.

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u/TheHumanite Dec 18 '19

That's their point.

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u/Im_Currently_Pooping Dec 18 '19

Only if large amounts are absorbed or ingested. I don’t think there’s a way to OD on it if inhaled. There has been research that nicotine can actually help certain brain disorders like Alzheimer’s. IIRC.

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u/thelizardkin Dec 18 '19

LD50 is pretty much meaningless in terms of how dangerous something is after chronic use. For instance botulism toxin is the most toxic substance on earth in terms of LD50, with some varieties having an LD50 of 2 nanograms per kilogram. Yet it's commonly used in medical procedures, and is one of the safest medical chemicals in use.

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u/99PercentPotato Dec 18 '19

You dont know what you're talking about, honestly.

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u/conartist101 Dec 18 '19

You can’t have long term studies on something novel. There are studies underway but nothing near as robust as what we have on cigarettes naturally.

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u/VoodoKid Dec 18 '19

Also there are a lot of studies on the impact of nicotine alone and also of the vapor and the aromas you inhale. A lot of people always say ah it's so new and nobody could ever know what's going to happen but that's not true since we have alot of experience with the ingredients of Vapes.

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u/DangerousBeans1 Dec 18 '19

We do, but not necessarily in the ways they are being used in vaping (for instance we know that Diacetyl, a food flavouring used in some e-liquids can cause a type of bronchiolitis if inhaled, but afaik there isn't enough data yet to say whether this put vapers at risk.)

You might as well start using cement as toothpaste and then claim you knew it wouldn't cause you harm because we have lots of experience with it as a building material.

I quit smoking using a vape myself but I'm always very careful not to let myself fall into the "this is perfectly safe" camp because we just don't have the proper long term longitudinal studies to provide evidence one way or the other. You have to remember that just because we have experience of an ingredient on it's own that doesn't mean we can be 100% sure how it will behave in a solution of other chemicals, in an application which is relatively novel.

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u/Volsunga Dec 18 '19 edited Dec 18 '19

But we have long-term studies on nicotine and we have long-term studies on propylene glycol. Vapes don't have much more to them (ideally, keeping in mind that some bad vape pens and cheaply manufactured juice can introduce other things that may be problematic). As long as we introduce manufacturing regulations so it isn't a free for all of bootleg electronics and chemicals made in some guy's basement, they are preferable to smoking.

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u/conartist101 Dec 18 '19

Sure, most of our studies on nicotine don’t tell us anything about pulmonary issues that can arise from extended vaping though. There’s only one study on that which shows an increase in self reported asthma. That said, I don’t question that it’s better than smoking by a huge margin as far as we know.

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u/Spoonshape Dec 18 '19

On the other hand there are certainly long term studies showing massive health risks from cigarettes. If it's a choice between cigs and vaping you are choosing something which is possibly harmful versus something which is definitely harmful. Think of it as Russian roulette - we know smoking cigs has a 50% chance to reduce your lifespan. (3 bullets loaded in your 6 chamber gun). It's good odds to switch to vaping.

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u/binomine Dec 18 '19

Is there longterm studies that prove vaping isn't harmful?

Don't kid yourself, vaping is harmful.

There isn't enough long term users to do long term studies to know if it is actually less harmful than smoking. It is absolutely known that vaping has less cancer causing chemicals than smoking, but we don't know if vaping may cause something else after long term use.

For example. there is now a link between increased asthma and vaping, that is not in smoking.

Overall, if you have to chose between smoking and vaping, vaping seems to be the better choice, but it would be better to choose not smoking over either of them.

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u/craig88888888 Dec 18 '19

Thanks. Finally some guidance.

I still don't understand why there has not been long term study. Vaping has been around for over a decade and is just now popular. There had to be some early adopter study's?

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u/thursmjulnir Dec 18 '19

10 years really isnt that long term. And it has only blown up recently.

Although there has been some people doing it for 10 years the amount who would participate in a study and have been doing it for 10 years is probably a pretty small amount. And even if they all participated, 10 years still isnt all that long term when compared to the full lifetime examples we have from smoking.

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u/binomine Dec 18 '19

The people who are starting within the last few years are the early adopters. The people who started out 10 years ago are the innovators. What they were doing is not exactly what vape users are doing now.

Also, the amount of people who were exclusively vaping or started vaping without tobacco use 10 years ago would be pretty small. It would be difficult to find enough to have a good study. 5 years is about the best you're going to be able to do.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '19

[deleted]

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u/binomine Dec 18 '19

In Hookah, you are still breathing in some burning tobacco and you are breathing in smoke from coal or wood. There is a belief that water filters out nasty chemicals, but this is a false belief. There is little difference between the chemicals of normal smoked tobacco and hookah.

In vaping, there is no burnt tobacco, which makes it a different beast.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '19

I have also observed mind altering effects of vaping. People who vape seem to develop other, alternative fashion preferences and also sport the so called "man-bun". Further studies is required but my observation indicates these chemicals affect the neural networks in our brains and reconstructs them in a manner yet unknown

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u/CPTKittyCaboose Dec 18 '19

Ugh, pedantic snobbery is so last century.

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u/x86_1001010 Dec 18 '19

We'll know more in about 20 years probably. Admittedly I do feel better switching from cigs to vapes.

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u/frogsgoribbit737 Dec 18 '19

Vaping IS harmful. The problem is we don't know HOW harmful. Studies have shown that nicotine alone raises your cancer risks even if it isn't being smoked in cigarettes. On top of that, anytime you are putting something not air into your lungs, and specifically if it is hot like water vapor, you are hurting them. You're setting yourself up for lung disease later in life even if it's not cancer. Things like emphysema.

I would say it probably is much safer than cigarettes but that doesn't mean safe. My husband used vaping to get off cigarettes and then also got off the vape.

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u/wasabicreampie Dec 18 '19 edited Dec 18 '19

This. E-juice is still a foreign body, which would still pose a significant threat to your lungs if inhaled regularly. Perhaps someone could clarify on this: it's less chemically complex an inhalant compared to the thousands of metals and other compounds you'd inhale by cigarette smoking. Many known carcinogens are notably absent on the base composition of any E-juice, but that doesn't mean it's automatically "good" for you.

The effects of PG and VG, two compounds which are major ingredients of many E-liquids, are still poorly known when used as an inhalant. All we know is that it has been used in concerts and similar events in the form of fog machines, and that a portion of the population are allergic to them. Add to that the myriad ways which currently exist to vaporize the ingredients, be it via drip atomizers, tank atomizers, cartridges used on pods and what have you. The method of delivery may introduce metals or other compounds to the final vapor cloud which gets into the lungs, and the effects of these are still poorly understood.

All we know about cigarette and tobacco smoking in general, are things we know because they were documented over a long period of time. It's still too early to tell whether electronic cigarettes are significantly any better than cigarette smoking, but I'd personally advise against making any health related claims about it as of this time.

Edit: Incomplete post.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '19

Um.. I've heard that nicotine itself isn't that harmful, i would love to see your study

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u/aimsfbach Dec 18 '19

If you happen to have the time and are interested, theres a really great webinar that came out recently discussing the health effects of nicotine. It also shows some really interesting comparisons between cigarette smoking, snus and vaping. I'm on my phone right now and about to start my commute to work so I can't remember all the specifics from this webinar and the health implications from nicotine but just wanted to link this since you were interested in sources related to this topic. https://smokingcessationleadership.ucsf.edu/webinar/comprehensive-look-health-effects-nicotine

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '19

Thank you

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u/SgtPackets Dec 18 '19

Sources please.

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u/Glockamolee Dec 18 '19

Studies show nicotine does not give you cancer. It is only an addictive chemical. Can you please point me to some studies that show it raises your risk?

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '19

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u/MadeWithPat Dec 19 '19

But smoke also isn’t air...

I think the comparative nature of the question was the important part.

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u/[deleted] Dec 19 '19

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u/MadeWithPat Dec 19 '19

At this point, yeah, kind of is. Though I’d argue cigarettes have known long term results and vaping does not, so kind of also a question about your individual level of optimism.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '19

There are no long-term studies. it's all too new for what's considered effective science but the data is starting a direction. Glycol in the inhalant for vape causes inflammation of the lungs. Anywhere you get chronic inflammation we always see cancers. We will eventually see cancer from this as well I'm sure of it. But it's too new to know. with chronic inflammation you should also see things like COPD eventually develop.

When you look at the substances you're inhaling, most likely vaping is less dangerous than smoking. But that's not the end of the story. You see small studies showing increased addiction and people run out there juice and end up going back to smoking. They've up there nicotine addiction because of the ease that they think brings to getting nicotine into your system. Now you're smoking more than you ever have. This is a dilemma. We are going to band either one so you kind of stuck with this bridge that doesn't really effectively do what many hope.... Stop smoking, move to vape, decrease nicotine content. Eventually stop vaping or only vape no nicotine. That process just doesn't happen even though it could theoretically.

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u/Zzyzzy_Zzyzzyson Dec 18 '19

Regular vapes aren’t causing the lung diseases we’re seeing. It’s THC carts made and bought on the street, where anyone can put anything into them.

Vaping has been around for a decade now. If it was anywhere near as harmful long term as regular cigarettes, we would know.

It doesn’t contain the 7,000 chemicals found in regular cigarettes. The smell isn’t disgusting and doesn’t stay in your clothes, hair, and everything around you. Vaping isn’t harmful to others as there’s no actual “secondhand smoke”.

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u/thekatzpajamas92 Dec 18 '19

If you’re smoking that little, don’t get a vape. It’ll only make you more addicted. Just go cold turkey.

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u/pc43893 Dec 18 '19 edited Dec 18 '19

longterm studies

Were there even enough world-wide users for a meaningful study until about five years ago?

indisputably better for you than smoking

It seems fairly certain that it's better for you short-term and it's probably also long-term, but I wouldn't want to bet on how much and certainly not that it's safe at all.

looking to make the switch

Why do you want to transpose the dependence? Cold, educated turkey has the best success rates if I'm not misinformed.

Edit: There's enough people voting this comment down to get it marked controversial, but no one's replying. Could someone, please? I'm not sure with what you are disagreeing.

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u/MadeWithPat Dec 19 '19

-If- vaping is “indisputably better than smoking”, even short term, then there is benefit to switching.

I can say from my own experience (smoked 1/2ppd for 6 years, vaping for the past 4), I feel better as a caper than as a smoker. I know that isn’t really a quantifiable result to stand on, but it’s a bit more qualified than a blind guess, so that’s what I’ll operate on for now.

Somewhat related, I think you’d be surprised regarding the demographics of vaping. I see a substantial amount of vapers that are 40, 50, 60 years old, and switched because they’ve been (unsuccessfully) attempting to quit smoking for decades. Again, -if- vaping is better than smoking, then surely a successful switch to vaping is better than yet another failed cold turkey attempt.

Once more, just to beat the dead horse, a lot of this is contingent on speculation. But in the absence of substantial research, what else are you gonna do?

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u/pc43893 Dec 19 '19

I'm not questioning a relative improvement over smoking cigarettes. If you can't quit completely, by all means vape. But if you have any chance of quitting, don't settle for vaping.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '19

Is there longterm studies that prove vaping isn't harmful?

NO. Because vaping IS harmful. There is no doubt, and no denial. Difference being, it is exponentially LESS harmful than traditional cigarettes, and has been proven to be the best method to stop traditional cigarettes.

Pack a day smoker for 25 years.

I've been cig free for 2.5 years.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '19

Good for you. Im quitting in 2 days. Tried quitting last year free basing but i was dumb and started again. Im trying out salt nics this time. Pack a day for almost 20 years now.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '19

Hey man. It's not an easy fight.

I've been cig free for 2.5 years, but I've been using vape products for 7 years.

So it took over 4 years to completely get off the cigs.

Its not easy. It's just all about fighting one craving at a time. It comes and goes.

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u/LongHairBri Dec 18 '19

I quit smoking for vape a year ago and will never go back! I also like both regular vape juice and the salt based and use them together (not same device)

the standard vape juice is the happy warm smoke. the salt base is the I NEED IT NOW smoke.

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u/FlakingEverything Dec 18 '19

You might think so but it's not so clear. Inhaling anything but air does damage to your lung. While vaping might be healthier than smoking in regards to soot and smoke damage, the other kind of damage like microvascular damage and inflammation from inhaling hot vapour is the similar. People haven't vape for long enough for researchers to find out more yet but it's probably just as bad in the long term.

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u/Dexsin Dec 18 '19

Well hang on a second. If nicotine is being bound to benzoic acid as a salt, that can become a carcinogen by binding to ascorbic acid (vit c) and becoming benzene. I don't know how much of an effect this actually has on your body, but it strikes me as something worth noting.

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u/cosmin_c Dec 18 '19

There are actually newer studies that show that nicotine is the culprit in metaplasia of the respiratory epithelium cells. It's why I quit vaping altogether for a while but ocassionally puff nic free stuff. There was an explicit study of nicotine vape vs nicotine free vape but I can't seem to find it.

Here's one Sauce.

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u/Sargeras887 Dec 18 '19

Its not scientific but my lungs and breath capacity are much much better 2 years after making the switch. Highly recommend getting a refillible subohm tank, regulated box mod, and high vg/low nicotine (3mg) juice.

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u/MadeWithPat Dec 18 '19

It’s safe enough that the American Cancer Society is supporting it as a cessation method

Looked for a source, found myself in the wrong https://www.cancer.org/healthy/stay-away-from-tobacco/e-cigarette-position-statement.html

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u/sryyourpartyssolame Dec 18 '19

Wow. Thank you for the link.

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u/MadeWithPat Dec 19 '19

Np.

I’m pretty frustrated with the misinformation that surrounded vaping for so long, so tried to be quick to find something to cite when I made the initial claim. I guess the stance changed at some point? There was a time that the ACS supported vaping.. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

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u/PmYourWittyAnecdote Dec 18 '19

There’s been longterm studies, they all show vaping is infinitely better than smoking.

Absolutely make the switch to vaping ASAP. I’d recommend the Suorin Air, it’s a real good move from cigarettes compared to a lot of other vapes I’ve tried/mates have.

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u/Randybones Dec 18 '19

Early indications say yes, it’s probably healthier. But we don’t know the long term effects of these products because nobody has been using them long term yet

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u/Jengalover Dec 18 '19

I can’t think of any reason that it might be safer, just another method of hooking people.

And just wait until pot is legal in enough places that it’s commercialized like cigarettes.