r/skeptic • u/saijanai • 2d ago
🤘 Meta Scientists sound warning over Trump cuts — and 75% consider leaving the U.S.
https://news.yahoo.com/scientists-sound-warning-over-trump-cuts--and-75-consider-leaving-the-us-214558236.html22
u/PaintedClownPenis 2d ago
The scientists also knew what was going to happen in 1933.
But I expect this attempted exodus to be much more complete and urgent because this time rational thought itself is the boogeyman.
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u/RustyWinger 1d ago
Getting out while they’re allowed to get out. What’s to stop the Turd Reich from deciding exporting scientists versed in alternate energy is a national threat? Much like allowing pregnant (white) women to cross borders.
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u/PaintedClownPenis 15h ago
Then they can walk out through any of the two dozen Indian reservations in the country that have foreign or ocean borders, because tribes don't get federal Homeland Security funding. Because racism.
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u/saijanai 2d ago
But I expect this attempted exodus to be much more complete and urgent because this time rational thought itself is the boogeyman.
I'm not sure if "boogeyman" is an allowed scientific term or not. You may need to delete, edit and get your terminology signed off by your Department head before posting this again.
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u/PaintedClownPenis 2d ago
I did in fact select that word over half a dozen historically accurate ones.
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u/saijanai 2d ago
But is it an approved scientific term?
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u/TootBreaker 2d ago
It's more an engineers term than a science one
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u/saijanai 1d ago
That's OK, any engineers in the US government have to worry about the same kind of thing also, I'm reasonably confident.
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u/Knighth77 2d ago
MAGA with room temperature IQ: "Who needs scientists? Bye, losers!"
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u/Lora_Grim 2d ago
This is something i actually saw in the replies in another thread about this.
American reich-wingers are stupid, and are deeply proud about being stupid. Ignorance for them is a virtue to be celebrated now.
They very much yearn for a world in which stupidity reigns supreme... which it already does, but it's going to get so much worse. Hurray...
I sincerely hope there is an afterlife, just so i can watch these "people" suffer in their own self-made Hell after i am gone. And hopefully, if there is any justice in the afterlife, the people that made our world a living hell will actually end up in a literal Hell too.
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u/saljskanetilldanmark 2d ago
Scientists are part of the ((bad)) "elite" class according to those morons.
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u/PotsAndPandas 2d ago
Honestly. It's like some of these guys are just deeply insecure when a doctor tells them that eating burgers as a primary source of nutrition is a bad idea, so they triple down with a meal of meat cooked in lard with a wad of butter slathered on-top
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u/SyrNikoli 2d ago
I don't think I'll have the money to leave this place when the time comes...
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u/Morepork69 2d ago
So, how long before the administration start to make it difficult for "essential workers" to leave the country?
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u/Jmsjss2912 2d ago
Let’s talk about the tariffs and the effects it has on the manufacturers of this country.
Assume for a minute that you wanted to bring back some manufacturing to the USA, which of course is a huge assumption compared to manufacturing outside the country like we do as a company.
Which I will get to in just a moment. This week alone the stock market lost over US$9 trillion which means every single manufacturer that has a US corporation is part of that loss. Which goes to show you that Trump‘s logic is about as efficient as his spray tan.
If these companies even had a thought of coming back to the United States, all of their cash has now evaporated because of the loss in the stock market so who’s going to finance these new manufacturing plants that Trump keeps talking about, that are going to come back here make the economy great?
Now goods have gone up in price in some cases doubled already this week which means the consumers are going to be buying less. Companies are going to begin layoffs, because they’ve lost a huge portion of their cash reserves. Their businesses are going to be diminished some because of the lower purchasing rate and the higher pricing.
Bringing manufacturing back to the United States at this point with this approach has been almost completely eliminated.
All you have to do is go back and look at what happened during the depression when they tried to institute tariffs causing the depression to take even a further nose dive and adding years into the depressive point. It’s such a joke that they used it in the movie Ferris Bueller‘s Day off where the teacher was talking about how bad tariffs are and how they caused the depression to go down, which goes to show you that if they use it as a punchline, then it obviously cannot work.
With our business, we were building some manufacturing plants in the United States and now have had to put it on hold because of the tariffs. As an example, each of our production lines has a manufacturing cost of a little under US$5 million, we did try to price it in the United States but we found quotes anywhere from $12-$16 million for the same exact production line that we are having made in China. So we couldn’t make the equipment in the United States, but we were going to import it and set up manufacturing plants.
One of them was in Arkansas where the state is somewhat depressed. Now we have put that project on hold with approximately 1800 people we were going to hire.
The reason for that is not just the tariffs, from the equipment if you think about it a piece of equipment that cost me $5 million is now going to cost me about $9 million. Each production line generates about US$35 million of revenue so it’s not just a tariff in my situation it’s the fact that for $9 million I can have practically two production lines generating $70 million of income compared to the same $9 million generating $35 million worth of income, with a much lower profit margin because of the labor cost in the United States along with all the taxes and liability issues that you carry because of the litigious nature of the United States operating.
So tariffs do not work, they hurt the economy. The only thing that they do on the surface is generate more tax dollars for the US government, but they diminish and wipe out the middle and lower class.
Do you want to bring manufacturing back to the United States?
You’ve got to do something about all of the litigious actions, you have to lower healthcare cost, lower pharmaceutical cost, have to educate more so that children can grow up and learn trades.
You have to find ways to lower the cost of living and once you start doing that then laboring jobs will become available again.
The next problem is the taxation situation is off-balance. We have structured our tax code so that the wealthy and the publicly traded companies that offer stock options instead of salaries, which is taxable make it almost impossible to collect tax.
Take Musk for an example from Tesla.
They talk about his $300 billion worth but it’s all in stock and that’s unrealized gains paying no taxes. What he does is he goes to the bank and he borrows money against that stock portfolio, borrowed money is non-taxable income and then he uses that money to live and buy things like he bought Twitter for $44 billion with borrowed money, no taxes paid at all.
And then what he does from there to pay off those loans is he borrows against other portfolios and he just keeps borrowing deferring the taxes.
$300 billion and no taxes paid whereas the employees that work for all those companies have taxes taken out of each paycheck.
Just look salaries up of the top executives around the country and you look at their income, you’ll see that their salaries are generally between one hundred and two hundred thousand US dollars but they earned anywhere from ten to a hundred million dollars a year all in stock options and then they keep those options in stock and then borrow against them so their tax base is almost nothing.
you want to fix the economy. You have to find a way to tax the rich, you’re not going to make them poor, you’re just going to make them help to strengthen the economy.
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u/robgrab 2d ago
Only 75%?
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u/saijanai 2d ago
Some people have kids who are about to graduate, and likely there are other issues.
If nothing else, IQ is no barrier to being a horrible person hoping for horrible things to happen. There are doubtless some scientists celebrating what is going on: crazy poeple are found in every career field.
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u/dmwessel 2d ago
They had better leave before he gets them fired—or worse yet, pulls a Mao Zedong on them.
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u/Guroburov 2d ago
I have a family member looking to move once the kids start college in a few years.
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u/JuventAussie 1d ago
Link to apply for visas to Australia
https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visas/working-in-australia/skill-occupation-list
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u/Fun-Dragonfruit2999 2d ago
Consider the reality of the possibility of the claim "32% consider leaving the US."
To where will they leave? Someone please explain to me, which country has open borders to scientists. Right now, even Canada doesn't have open borders to scientists. Yes, in theory there is the MCA, which is the follow-on to NAFTA, and both treaties provide the illusion of open borders to the immigration of scientific class people. But that is an illusion; once you dig into the regulations, you discover it is not reality. Likewise with Australia.
So once you do manage to immigrate, what do you do for a job?—its not like New Zealand, Canada or Australia has a need for thousands of scientists, they're not expanding their universities. Australia had to hold an emergency meeting because DOGE found and cut-off a $600M US grant to one of it's universities. These countries aren't made of money, they're in worse financial shape than the US.
This is the rantings of the Ugly-American class who think the other peoples of the world are beneath them, and that this anointed white-savior class have the right to just drop in on another country which in their eyes would be overjoyed to accept these superior beings.
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u/finndego 1d ago
Mate, most countries are looking for highly skilled, highly educated workers. You are in a bit of a dreamland to think that these people who want to go wont find a landing place. Not all scientist work at a university btw. I think you're being a bit naive. New Zealand alone is 1,700 doctors and 4,800 nurses short right now.
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u/saijanai 2d ago edited 1d ago
To where will they leave? Someone please explain to me, which country has open borders to scientists. Right now, even Canada doesn't have open borders to scientists.
France and other coutnries are already inviting US scientists to move.
A simple google search would have revealed this:
French university opens doors to US scientists fleeing Trump’s research cuts
Aix-Marseille University in the south of France says it's ready to welcome American scientists, whose work has become untenable following the Trump administration's cuts in certain academic sectors. Around 40 researchers from top US universities have answered the call.
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Brain-drain to Paris: France courts US scientists unhappy with Trump
As US researchers have voiced concerns over the direction of science and research policy under US President Donald Trump’s administration, France has positioned itself as a welcoming destination for those seeking “academic freedom”.
Philippe Baptiste, France’s Minister for Higher Education and Research, has urged the country’s academic institutions to prepare for an influx of scientists considering leaving the US.
On March 9, in a letter addressed to the French National Research Agency (ANR), organisations such as the French National Centre for Scientific Research is the French (CNRS) and Inserm, the country’s institute for health, as well as medical research and universities, Baptiste emphasised the potential for France to attract top-tier talent.
“Many well-known researchers are already wondering about their future in the United States,” he wrote. “We would naturally like to welcome a certain number of them.”
Baptiste called on higher education leaders to submit their “thoughts, alerts, analyses, and concrete proposals” on how best to facilitate this migration and the mechanisms necessary to support incoming scholars.
In an interview with La Tribune on March 9, Yasmine Belkaid, director general of the Institut Pasteur and a former immunology researcher in the US, described the situation as both a crisis and an opportunity.
“What we’re seeing is a strong desire for scientists from the United States to return to or leave for Europe,” she said.
“Every day I receive requests from people — French, Europeans, even Americans, who no longer feel able to conduct their research freely. You could call it a sad opportunity but it’s an opportunity all the same,” she added.
Aix-Marseille Université, one of France’s largest institutions, has already taken concrete steps, launching its “Safe Place for Science” programme on March 7.
The initiative aimed to welcome researchers currently working in the US, particularly those in fields such as climate science, environmental research, health and the humanities.
Eric Berton, the university’s president, said the institution expected to raise around €10 million to host approximately 15 researchers in collaboration with local institutions.
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European institutions target ‘scientific asylum-seekers’ from US
- The Trump administration has cut research funds
- It is also imposing ideological limitations on scientists
- European universities hope to lure American researchers
European institutions are beginning to target “scientific asylum” seekers from the U.S., advertising jobs for those who fear funding cuts and ideological restrictions from the Trump administration.
Vrije Universiteit Brussel, based in Belgium, is one university that has started to actively recruit American researchers, portraying itself as a safe haven. So is the Pasteur Institute in Paris, which is recruiting Americans in fields like infectious disease research.
The Netherlands announced on Thursday that it was launching a fund to attract researchers, which would be open to those of all nationalities.
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US scientists who want to move to Europe because of Trump speak out: ‘I’m scared of fascism’
Leading centers in cities like Barcelona and Madrid have been receiving dozens of applications from researchers who fear loss of funds or deportation
In recent weeks, some of Spain’s most cutting-edge research centers have received dozens of applications from scientists based in the U.S. who are seeking to move to Europe to escape Donald Trump’s policies. This newspaper has collected several of their testimonies.
Ray Brown [not his real name] is a 50-year-old cell biologist who has been looking for work in Europe since Trump won the November 5 election. “Everyone around me is talking about leaving,” explains this chief scientist who leads a nine-person team at a prestigious East Coast university. He spoke to EL PAÍS on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisals against himself and his family.
“My wife is of Chinese descent,” he explains. “At some point, the Trumpists will go after people of Chinese ethnicity. She was born in the United States and is an American citizen, but I don’t think that protects us anymore,” he explains. “I don’t see it as very likely that they’ll deport me, but I do see it as likely that if they read my name, they’ll cancel my own funding [he has two projects funded by the National Institutes of Health (NIH)] and that of my entire institution. Those are my fears. I guess what I’m really scared of is fascism,” he reflects.
From NASA to the NIH and the most prestigious universities in the country, there is a fear of speaking out: people are afraid of losing their jobs or having the government take action against the institution to which they belong, as has already happened with Columbia University. The New York institution, whose campus was the site of protests highly critical of the Israeli invasion of Gaza, risked losing some €400 million in federal funding if it didn’t comply with the Trump administration’s demands, which it ended up doing despite having a total budget of around €15 billion with which it could have resisted. Other universities have seen some of their faculty members deported and sustained budget cuts worth tens of millions of dollars due to their transgender inclusion programs.
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And that was from BEFORE the survey results were released last week, and the letter by 2,000 American scientists was sent this week.
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u/ponyflip 2d ago
do you think the feasibility of leaving the us is the salient point here? what about whether they can all find airline tickets at convenient travel times?
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u/midoriberlin2 1d ago
Does it occur to anyone to ask:
- How many scientists actually contribute currently?
- By what measures?
- In what fields?
I'm asking this as a serious question and apolitically. If there is a genuine crisis looming (which there may well be), presumably there would be some level of detailed analysis involved here.
This article is on the level of a Colgate/Pantene survey and contributes zero to a potentially serious issue.
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u/Archy99 1d ago
Tenure largely does not exist for most scientists anymore and the field is extremely competitive, both academia and industry. It is hard to maintain a job without being highly productive, far more so than most fields of employment.
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u/midoriberlin2 1d ago
As defined by what? To the benefit of who? And split out across which sub-disciplines?
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u/Archy99 1d ago
The physical amount of work done in reviewing other peoples work, collecting data and forming theories.
To the benefit of worldwide society by increasing our knowledge base including in areas that we may not initially forsee a direct benefit because our long-term vision is clouded.
Across most disciplines.
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u/midoriberlin2 1d ago
Wow...that's...kind of weak...
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u/Archy99 23h ago
You're right, the effort of my response was proportional to the amount of effort that you have put in to research the question yourself (almost zero).
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u/midoriberlin2 23h ago
That's the kind of go-getting approach to delivering value that keeps scientists so eminently employable worldwide! Chapeau and enormous good luck with the exodus to freer markets where your unique skillsets will be more fully appreciated!
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u/Archy99 23h ago
Cute.
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u/midoriberlin2 17h ago
Oh it's very cute. Nearly as cute as the countries worldwide with completely different languages, cultures and systems who have little to no interest in employing US scientists unless they provably have something to offer.
I have little difficulty in believing that a majority of US scientists would rather be in some imaginary elsewhere. What I have enormous difficulty in believing is that this will be either easy or possible.
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u/Archy99 17h ago
You are missing the point. Yes, there is a lack of capacity for those scientists overseas. That is the problem - we will lose great scientists from the field altogether.
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u/crazygoodfuture 2d ago
To go where?!
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u/saijanai 2d ago edited 1d ago
France, Belgium and Spain have already made public plans to court and receive fleeing American scientists:
And that was before the survey and letter.
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u/AaronTheElite007 2d ago
The brain drain