r/streamentry • u/Acrobatic-Nose9312 • Oct 30 '24
Vipassana Vipassana Cessation Event
Big metta to yall!
It’s my understanding that when one completes a full ‘insight cycle’ (that is, going through the stages of insight whilst practicing vipassana e.g. on a Mahasi retreat) a cessation / fruition event occurs (or multiple).
Some say this is / leads to stream entry. Others not so. Some say this is a taste of nibbana, others not. My question concerns not these technical terms, attainments, fetters or otherwise.
For all who have experienced such a cessation / fruition event at the end of an insight cycle, please may you describe how or whether this experience improved your life / reduced dukkha?
Ask me in comments if anything unclear.
Big metta again and thank you! 🙏
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u/scienceofselfhelp Oct 30 '24
When I first experience a "self" cessation it was a big deal.
There was a time when I would just get knocked out during meditation. I happened to meditate with my back up against the wall, so my girlfriend would constantly hear my head smacking against the wall as it happened. It wasn't sleep, it was like passing out for a split second. Not cessation.
Then this started happening with the clear awareness that my sense of self was winking out. Yet "I" - or rather something greater than I - still remained to observe.
When it first happened I fundamentally felt that everything was deeply ok for about 48 hours. Then all the conditioning seemed to come back. One time it happened and I clearly observed my body going to sleep and my sense of self shut down and stayed out, but I had recall over external stuff, like the phone call my girlfriend was on.
Later I had a different sort of event occur where my sense of self diminished and awareness exploded outwards infinitely. After that event everything was fundamentally ok for about a week, but I felt a glow, immense ecstasy and odd things occurred during this time, like I couldn't quite talk, and my handwriting changed dramatically.
Events like this became more and more common, and after I did a lot of trauma therapy, this sense of fundamental okness became pretty persistent and unshakeable even in the midst of a lot of difficult events - breakups, death, social upheaval, moving, incredible work disappointments, etc. And that's been incredibly stable for about a year and a half. Any individual instances of negativity that come up fall away on their own quite quickly.
It's like the notion of being more than my constricted sense of self which was revealed in my self cessation took time to take root. It wasn't the all encompassing change that I expected it would be.
Recently I had a large cessation where the entirety of existence seem to just have a read error, like a pin scratching on a record - even raw awareness seemed to just blank. I don't really know what that entails.
Any feedback that anyone wants to chime in with is more than welcome.
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u/Name_not_taken_123 Oct 30 '24
That was truly interesting and very authentic. I advise you to look up “kensho” as your latter “expansive experience” aligns more to that than a cessation. A kensho is different. It’s not as clean as cessation (the average ones) but it’s broader, longer duration, and has a very positive afterglow. It’s technically non-duality but usually it’s a lot of “other stuff and some dirt” making them more dramatic, mystical and esoteric. The deep ones changes you permanently like cessations does but the more shallow one doesn’t.
About your greatest experience would you care to share some more details?
Also, I’m curious about your self dropping out. Did you feel you had no agency over your body? Was it dramatic buildup?
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u/scienceofselfhelp Oct 30 '24
The truly weird experiences occurred after all this. After this there was this dramatic lessening of narrative storytelling and self referential thought, as well as just a huge amount of space in my mind. But also access to a persistent experience of spaciousness and openness and silence that permeated everything. I would just "fall" in to things. Patterns especially of trees, rocks, really anything - like a sort've spiritual narcolepsy. It was so powerful I avoided driving and talking to people for a while.
I took an advanced course getting to other states beyond the threshold of what I described, and that was truly wild. First off, I could clearly see the mind from an outside perspective. Where before I would note thoughts and sensations from within the mind, now I could just notice when the mind as a whole was kicking in and view it with amusement.
But also I ended up transitioning to a state of panpsychism where the entirety of the world was alive and radiating love towards me. This lasted for about a week or 2 on its own without formally meditating. It was just life.
Another state was an alien, almost robotic sense of extreme agencylessness where I was viewing my self from a third angle. Much like a video game where you're playing a character and the viewpoint is skewed from behind the character or you can shift the video around. Things were just happening. Again, persistent continuously for about 2 weeks, though this sometimes would later come back in mid step and last for half a day.
Another was an energy state where I would feel - viscerally feel - wings of fire and light exploding out of me extending about 2 feet on either side of me. That lasted for a while too.
As for your question of the self dropping out, I still had agency, and there was no build up. Though I had been meditating regularly for about 11 years at that point. This would occur while meditating for about a second.
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u/Name_not_taken_123 Oct 30 '24 edited Oct 30 '24
Thank you for sharing 😊 I’m in a hurry so quick answer. it sounds like location 3 (love state) and 4 (alien video game state) to me. https://www.nonsymbolic.org/location-3/
Check it out 🙏does it fit? What happened next? You didn’t stay in the video game state? (Location 4?)
Sounds like you are on 3rd path (therevada Buddhism). It’s not 4th path but it seems like your fluctuations perception of reality align with 3rd panthers. Do you agree? Do you recognize what I wrote earlier in this thread about approaching “Greath Death”? Any existential terror before any major shift?
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u/scienceofselfhelp Oct 31 '24
So the advanced course I took was from these guys so it definitely fit, and that's the language I was referencing - it fit really well for my experiences. I think the last one I mentioned was location 5.
After the course I naturally went down to hovering between Loc 1 and 2.
Why do you think I'm on 3rd path? I'm not exactly sure how the locations fit into the old fetter model. If you've got a link or a solid and more detailed description of the perception of 3rd pathers I'd love to see it.
There was a.lot of existential terror and of losing my self. Memory has become an issue along with all this so I'll have to check my notes as to what flavor of terror it was, hahah
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u/Name_not_taken_123 Oct 31 '24
Ah it’s you! 😊 I didn’t realize. We have talked before. You know more than me of martins work.
4 path model: 3rd path - simply a quick assessment. The paths are usually not fluid but the 3rd path seems to be “wonky” and unstable in its nature because not all but most of your ego structure is lost creating a host of weirdness. 4th path is more clean and more similar to a permanent location 4.
I didn’t find it right now but Daniel describes how 3rd path is “vastly different than ordinary life”. Not so much so on 2nd path. It’s somewhere in this book. Sorry for not finding that section right now: https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/
It is also described at “dharma overground” (forum online) how different dualities remains and progressively pops on 3rd path.
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u/BernieDAV Oct 31 '24
This was a nice description, very similar to what I experienced (including the head smacking against the wall part). It was wild.
A small technical correction in the OP's initial post: stream entry lasts a split second and happens once before you get a cessation for the first time. Cessation doesn't lead to stream entry, but the other way around.
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u/Name_not_taken_123 Oct 31 '24
Hmm I have never heard of that. So what is technically stream entry phenomenologically and subjectively? I thought it was the Theravada label of the first cessation.
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u/Gojeezy Nov 05 '24
Technically, I believe they are incorrect.
Excerpt from the Progress of Insight by Mahasi Sayadaw:
>Immediately afterwards, a type of knowledge manifests itself that, as it were, falls for the first time into Nibbana, which is void of formations (conditioned phenomena) since it is the cessation of them. This knowledge is called "maturity knowledge."
"Maturity knowledge" is knowledge of one who has become one of the lineage (gotra) (i.e., entered the stream). So this change of lineage knowledge coincides with the first cessation and does not happen immediately before it.
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u/Name_not_taken_123 Nov 05 '24
Ok, interesting. I’m not a scholar so I don’t feel I can add much of value about this. Thanks for sharing.
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u/scienceofselfhelp Oct 31 '24
That's hilarious!
If you get a chance, I'd love to hear you describe your own experiences regarding this subject more.
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Oct 31 '24
i have a short question to you, if you don't mind. how would you "rate" your work life during these periods of... altered states of consciousness, whatever these might be called? like aversion to having to deal with work or loss of "motivation"? and further, do you think you'd have trouble dealing with, say, finding another job if you were to find yourself in that position? you don't have to be in-depth. i don't really need huge essays or explanations or anything.
thanks in advance, even if you happen to be busy and not find the time! :)
i'm almost certain these are stupid questions caused by me being uninformed. but there's suttas where the buddha mentions arahants being unable to live in society. this implies to me that as you progress, you become more and more unfit for "normal" society. so i'm trying to wrap my head around this. and i'm not implying anything, by the way, about you or attainments or anything of the sort. i'm purely interested in the state of mind of this sort of experience.
btw, as a beginner, everytime i read accounts of this sort of meditative experience, it's a huge boost to my confidence and motivation in the practice. i know i should make do without lol. but still. so anyway, thanks for taking the time to write this.
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u/scienceofselfhelp Oct 31 '24
I don't mind at all, and feel free to ask whatever or reach out to me privately if that's easier. I could talk about this all day. Furthermore, I think hearing these things being a boost to practice is exactly what a quality functioning sangha SHOULD be doing. Instead of the sanghas I normally see, which are often lead by people with 40 years of stagnant practice talking philosophically and vaguely about things they've never actually experienced stating the same thing like a script to all students and classes regardless of skill level.
I would rate my work life as absolutely piss poor. I used to be a force of nature, and now I have almost zero motivation. This is particularly problematic because I'm a freelancer, and the majority of my work had to come from my own discipline.
And that makes sense FOR ME. Most of that striving derived from my traumas - constant comparison, the burning need to prove myself and fuel my identity, massive depression, massive anxiety, self consciousness, etc.
That's not the only way to go about life - there are certainly people who do an amazing amount without it being fueled by trauma - it can be fueled by love or service or curiosity or joy or even creating simple habits and building off them. But for me that's really alien because I've lived my entire life in a certain way.
It's been a difficult process transitioning to a different mode for motivational "fuel".
However, I find this process slow yet hopeful. The amount of time I lost before meditation trying to get over bouts of depression or anxiety was enormous. And later, the amount of willpower burned harnessing lower level meditation to manage these issues was huge as well. It's just draining even if you are really good at managing it. The thought of just doing things using a "cleaner" source of "fuel" is a beautiful and hopeful one for me.
I hope that made sense.
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Oct 31 '24
It absolutely makes sense. I think I was subconsciously expecting (or hoping?) the answer to be "No, my work/motivation is just 100% better". But your actual answer tells me that I had an idealized image of what progress is. I'm not disappointed or anything, BTW, if that's what it sounds like. On the contrary, I relate to this and find it inspiring that the Dhamma is an actual solution to human problems. So thank you very much for the honesty.
What you're mentioning about the sangha reminds me of that one "half the spiritual life" sutta. :) I read it before but now I definitely get its meaning better and am more inclined to agree.
Edit: next 3 paragraphs are me rambling about my own status to give context to why I found your answer useful and not much else. For some reason I like being transparent like that with my thought process.
Anyway, the reason I asked is that I am in a "transitional" period of my life, let's call it that. I'm looking for a job after getting pretty burnt out quite the time ago. I'm also simultaneously trying to commit to the practice more seriously. As you can expect, job hunting is pretty draining and I need to constantly find motivation. I worried that any sort of progress in the practice would diminish my ability to motivate myself. Obviously it sounds silly and I know intellectually it's probably wrong. But I couldn't be certain since I haven't been there.
Similarly to you (if I'm reading it right), I have issues with my identity. I mean seeing myself almost exclusively through others' eyes, looking for that single "thing"/occupation that's worthwhile to define myself by in life, and all the fun consequences of these 2 defects: anxiety of all flavors, addictions (to escape bad feelings) and recently some young budding anger issues, etc.
Unlike you, though, all of these issues "paralyze" me. They don't motivate me to do anything, only depress me and make me feel like "what's the point?". Up until now I've been lucky to have chosen a good career in my early teens where I could easily sustain myself and go on like a drone and ignore everything. Must have been good karma lol. And now it's probably starting to run out. Or maybe it's still running strong and this is a learning experience for the better. Whatever the case, I'm certainly thankful to have discovered the Dhamma.
I would love to ask you more but I feel like that was my biggest question so far. And for now I think I have my work cut out for me. Like I've been reading a lot for the past year but only flirting with the idea of committing and not actually doing much. And now all that's left is doing.
I like your attitude and I hope you find that clean source of fuel. I also hope you don't regret losing that drive. I wouldn't know but it sounds like there's not even a comparison between then and now. Unfortunately, I expect that I don't have any advice that could be useful to share back lol. So thanks a lot for the time and much luck on the path.
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u/Gojeezy Oct 30 '24
15 years later and it's still the most significant experience in my life. Reduced dukkha significantly. Concepts, beliefs, identities, sense of I me and mine, and all sensations are much looser and less dramatic.
There is knowledge that there is a safe space in the mind that I can disappear into - not the big cessation but a place where the concerns of the body are just a memory.
There is knowledge that happiness comes from within and doesn't depend on a certain set of circumstances... that death and time aren't what I had once thought they were. All existential fear is gone. There is a complete absence of any lingering questions of who I was, who I am, or who I will become. Thinking of death now leads to a sense of peacefulness and ease.
Ironically, completely destabilized my life as I had to reevaluate everything I was doing and why I was doing it since none of my motivations really made much sense anymore. Stopped all pursuits. Became a dharma bum. Normal people thought I was crazy or that something was wrong with me. People would say it was like I was in a different dimension and that they would get lost in my gaze.
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u/Name_not_taken_123 Oct 30 '24 edited Oct 30 '24
It depends at what depth it happened. My “verified cessation” was surprising, unexpected and undramatic. It felt like I “fell (literally) out of the dimension”. It was “blip”-like and happened a few times (3-5). Not scary. Not dramatic. Extremely “clean”.
I have also been close to something far FAR greater. It felt like I was about to die with 100% certainty. Not 99% as it usually does in very high equanimity. I knew “this is it. It ends here”. Not the more usual “this is scary. I’m gonna go mad”-speculations. I have “died on the cushion” before but there was always a vague sense of logic remaining before the event knowing I’m gonna be ok or at least hope it to be. This was different. I KNEW this was where it all ends without a shadow of a doubt or even hope for it to not be true. It was truly terrifying. I chickened out the very last moment and by merely being close to it I got so affected I lost bodily control (agency) for 15 min and became a passenger in my own body with no control over it whatsoever. Literally! Not “kind of”. By far the most bizarre experience. It took several months before my arm felt “mine” again instead of a foreign thing. That was probably on the event horizon to the “Great Death” described in other traditions like Zen.
After the cessation I indeed had less suffering. Maybe 20% less. Perceptual shift of maybe 5% lasted for about 4 months. Nothing too impressive. It strikes deep though. Psychological changes seem to stay.
Had I not chickened out on the scary one I would probably be 3rd path (maybe a big jump to 4th but that’s speculation. I’m currently 2nd path).
That’s my best guess. We will never know.
Edit: If you have entered dark night territory you might be familiar with different depths. At a low level it’s like a scary movie but you can turn off the movie or stop watching (I.e. it’s all in your head and you can stop sitting). In medium depth it’s more severe and doesn’t necessarily stop because you stop sitting. On a deep level it strikes at the core of your identity - personally everything in perception becomes “warped” and “wonky”. It no longer matters if you sit or do daily stuff - you are in the scary movie and there is no way out. I feel sick to my stomach and are often on the brink of throwing up. I can’t even eat food. It feels like a fever dream.
My point is it matters a lot in what depth you had the cessation.
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Oct 30 '24
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u/Acrobatic-Nose9312 Oct 30 '24
Great thanks a lot for your reply! If you wouldn’t mind, may I ask how this cessation came about for you and how it has changed your life day-to-day? Thanks :)
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u/AlexCoventry Oct 30 '24
It doesn't have to all come at once; you can apply the duties associated with the Four Noble Truths topically. Pick some behavior of yours which you know is unwholesome (wrong speech/livelihood/action) and you want to cease, trace it back to the corrupt intention it reflects (wrong intention), and trace that back craving from which it's originating, and release that craving. If you're doing it right, the corrupt intention and the unwholesome behavior ceases.
Mahasi Vipassana meditation is intended to blow up large chunks of clinging and craving at once, but that's mainly a difference in intensity, not in the type of cessation involved.
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Oct 30 '24
For me it was like “that was weird… where did I go”
Other times mind becomes stable for only a bit afterwards.
I’ve heard others experience bliss lasting weeks and months.
It’s basically happening all the time but we’re not attuned to it or recognize it.
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u/fabkosta Oct 30 '24
21 years later and, hard to say, neither did I gain anything nor did I not gain anything. The problem is: Initially, one tends to make a huge story out of it. It's just natural to do so. But the interest in this entire story slowly fades away. Wow, I had a cessation event. So what? There are literally many, many thousands people who had it in the past, and many, many thousands more who will have it in the future. It's not really an attainment even, because what did I gain from it? But then again, it's also not nothing. Ultimately, it's hard to judge and today I tend to say it was simply a "necessary" event. Necessary in the sense that I absolutely, at any cost wanted to get there. And when I had it it was absolutely nothing like I thought it would be, and I could not stop laughing at the absurdity of myself trying to get there. It's like trying to find out where your "nose" is. Where could it be? You get so obsessed with it, it's all you think about. And then you find it, right in your face. It was there all along. Did you get anything? Well, certainty about your nose. Is that any special? Well, not really, because everyone has their nose right in their face, so what's there more to say about it? But, over time you realize, a minority of people - for reasons we cannot fathom - is as obsessed as you are with finding out where their nose is. And hence they meditate. That's okay, you were like them before.
And later, even that drops away. You just stop caring about your nose and the entire story. Today I just meditate because, well, it's part of who I am and what I do. Like some people run marathon, others like to cook, and some others are really into cosplay. It's just who they are and what they like doing. So, I meditate because it's part of my life.
And that's about all there is to say really about cessation and stream entry.
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u/CoachAtlus Oct 30 '24
Yes, for the first one, definitely had a clear before/after impact. But then everything settles and integrates. Now, when it occurs, I barely even think about it.
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u/elmago79 Oct 31 '24
Nibanna =/= cessation.
You can experience cessation and not reach Nibanna, but the first time you experience it you will certainly trigger the other.
Cessation by itself it’s a big gulp of relief, but what changes your life is Nibbana.
If you expect that it some improves your life magically, you’re missing the point. You don’t become smarter, or richer or more handsome. But there is a fundamental shift in the experience of life.
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u/Acrobatic-Nose9312 Oct 31 '24
Hi please may you elaborate on the fundamental shift in experience please?
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u/elmago79 Oct 31 '24
The best metaphor I have is as if you’ve lived your life in analog SD monaural and suddenly you change to digital UHD Dolby Surround.
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u/Acrobatic-Nose9312 Oct 31 '24
Does UHD Dolby Surround reduce dukkha? ;)
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u/elmago79 Oct 31 '24
What do you think reducing dukkha means?
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u/Acrobatic-Nose9312 Oct 31 '24
I think it means feeling more free and unburdened from dissatisfaction (minor or major). Is that about right would you say?
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u/elmago79 Oct 31 '24
Yes, you feel more free and unburdened by dissatisfaction, vastly and significantly so. It’s great, tbh.
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u/liljonnythegod Oct 31 '24
In my experience the cessation must be coupled with an insight for it to lead the end of the insight cycle
I have a friend who I am helping get to SE and she has had multiple cessations but they have not lead to SE as the insight was not mature enough
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u/Acrobatic-Nose9312 Oct 31 '24
Hey do you know what conditions lead to the mature insight such that the cessation leads to SE?
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u/liljonnythegod Oct 31 '24
The 7 factors of enlightenment are needed
Dispassion is required to bring a person to equanimity, then equanimity towards equanimity is required to bring about high equanimity that is stable
From here one is no longer really pushing or pulling on sensations so experience starts to flow with little resistance
This makes it the best place to begin investigation of the three misperceptions that are required to bring about SE but they must be experientially understood
Sensations of all sense doors are to be recognised as known objects and thus regarded as not self. Eventually the entire field of experience is known to be known objects that are not self. There will then remain a "sense of a knower" which is to be recognised as another known object. What knows the sense of the knower?
Sensations arise and cease, then the next arise and cease and so on. When this is experientially known, then you can see the "space" between sensations arising and cease i.e. that which knows the sensations arising and ceasing.
Sensations must be recognised as being dissatisfying and not what you actually desire. Since sensations arise and cease, there is no possible sensation that could satisfy since it will eventually cease. Once this is understood, then the grip we hold onto sensations loosens. Suddenly it's clear that what we desire isn't sensations so we stop desiring them. The entire field of experience is sensations and if we realise that it's not what we want, we stop desiring and clinging to the entire field. It's like drinking salt water again and again expecting to get hydrated, eventually you put it down and stop engaging with it when you realise it isn't what you want
SE is the first step towards the recognition of awareness. Awareness cannot be experienced but it can be realised which occurs through inference.
Eventually on the path awareness becomes so purified that it is unbound and unconditioned
Just to note as I don't see it mentioned in a lot of places, this must also be transcended but that is much later in the path
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u/spiffyhandle Nov 03 '24
Cessation didn't reduce dukkha. I thought I was a stream winner, because that's what MCTB says happens after cessation. But six months after cessation I realized I had all the fetters.
The only noticeable things that happened was immediately after cessation, my lust decreased for two weeks and there were pleasant sensations in the body, especially the legs.
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