r/streamentry • u/wordscapes69 • 14d ago
Śamatha Fastest jhana attainment
Hi! I was wondering how true this article is cuz she claims to have reached 1-7 soft jhanas in 4 days of retreat meditating for 2-5h and hits 8-9(nirodha) on her second retreat meditating for 1-3h. Outside of retreats she meditates for 15-30m 2-3x a day. IS THIS ACTUALLY REAL?
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u/parkway_parkway 13d ago
No one owns the Jhanas and no one can say who has done what. If this has worked for them in a cool way then that's great and I wish them the best with it.
One thing which is interesting is that in Rob Burbeas Jhana retreat he talks a lot about deepening and enriching the experience of the Jhanas and really bathing in them. How there's a lot of different between just experiencing something once for a moment and really relishing it deeply for hours.
Another thing is that really the value of any spiritual accomplishment or breakthrough is how much it changes things and how much it transforms someone's life.
Some people really do have a single moment of clarity or awakening which then stays with them for a long time and makes a big difference to their mind.
That's the real test of something, how much did it do and how long did it last.
Having a cool retreat is one thing, and if all the changes are washed away after then what did it really accomplish?
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u/Impulse33 Burbea STF & jhanas, some Soulmaking 12d ago
Great points! I don't think the depth of jhana really matters. What matters is if the cultivated qualities are useful. If a person can access 5/100 of the piti/sukkha/equinimity of these fully absorbed hard jhanas, that 5% can still be immensely useful. One can work with that and develop it.
Being able to reach the tiniest morsel of joy or happiness can be incredibly profound depending on a person's situation. Why invalidate the experience? We can let them know there's much more available, but they're much more likely to continue practicing if somebody didn't stomp on their joy.
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u/M0sD3f13 14d ago edited 13d ago
Fwiw I first experienced jhana accidently just in a 30 minute anapamasati style sit I knew nothing about jhana at all until I experienced it and then went and researched it amd realised what I had experienced. I had just instinctively gotten absorbed and let go in a certain way.
Then after some listening to Rob burbeas talks I was able to enter first jhana daily within 20-40 minutes depending on how restless my mind was at the start. My practice then lapsed for a long while and I'm now just getting back to 30 minute sits and am playing around with piti and access concentration.
So yes it's definitely possible what she said IME
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u/tehmillhouse 13d ago
Same here. The reason I got into this thing in the first place is that I was doing TMI practice based on someone's recommendation, and suddenly had piti arise while I was driving my car. I found out about the jhanas after that, and was hooked. I experienced the first 3 Leigh Brasington style jhanas based on 1hr30 per day practice.
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u/Gojeezy 13d ago
That's not abnormal at all. I know lots of people that experience happiness (and all its signs like piti and frission) regularly from normal life activities -- music being a super common one. What's abnormal is going from experiencing piti (a sign of normal, everyday happiness) to experiencing nirodha.
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u/periodicpoint 13d ago edited 13d ago
Same here. I stumbled into the first hard jhana more or less by accident in my second serious 10 minute anapana meditation ever. In daily life during a low stress phase, if I sit for 30 minutes to 1 hour daily for about a week, then I can reach the first soft (lite) jhana during those sits.
I am saying this just to encourage everybody to try it. It is very much possible. Maybe not for many but definitely for some. Having trust in the possibility and being free of expectations are important factors to experience the jhanas IMHO.
Just sit down and try it for yourself. :)
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u/Impulse33 Burbea STF & jhanas, some Soulmaking 13d ago
For what it's worth, I appreciate your contributions.
I think you summed it up well, trust and managing expectations are the two biggest things. Funnily enough, those map directly to the most troublesome hindrances, doubt and greed.
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u/Jevan1984 13d ago
No you didn’t. Hard jhana aka Ajahn Brahm style jhanas, is so deep that someone could pick you up and drop you and you wouldn’t know it.
That’s his definition. Others maybe not that extreme, but you get the picture. It’s in that ballpark.
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u/periodicpoint 13d ago edited 13d ago
Interesting. And you are not seeing this text right now.
Jokes aside. I'm genuinely curious: How do you and u/JhannySamadhi know better than I do what I experience, especially anonymously over reddit without knowing me and my practice? I want to learn this magic ability of knowing things with 100 % certainty like the mind states of strangers. How do you do it?
Btw: I know the criteria of Ajahn Bram and I appreciate his teachings very much. Some of his descriptions and criteria fit (like the that there is no sense perception of the outer senses), some not so much (like the disc nimitta).
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u/Jevan1984 13d ago
What's more likely - random reddit user experienced a meditative state that the vast majority of monks will never experience in their entire lifetime in just the first 20 minutes of ever trying meditating, or that random reddit user is confused about what hard jhana is?
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u/periodicpoint 13d ago
Good point. The probability is actually quite low, I guess. 😅 Of course, the probability depends on the definition (criteria, standards, etc.) of jhana. But you are absolutly right, according to Ajhan Brahm's definition (if we want to call his descriptions a definition) of jhana, the probability is close to zero.
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u/Jevan1984 13d ago edited 13d ago
So again, we have differing definitions of "hard jhana", your understanding of hard jhana was no other sensory perceptions than the jhana factor. And this was accomplished in less than 10 minutes it.
On the other hand we have Paw Auk Sayadaw's, who is what we may call the standard of what 'hard jhana' is. Let's see his description.
"JPo: How does a yogi know that she or he has achieved a certain level of proficiency in concentration? A certain level of jhāna?
The Sayadaw: This is what we mean by proper mastery of the jhānas. It requires systematic practice under a qualified teacher. For example, to practise mindfulness of breathing, the yogi needs to concentrate on the in-and-out breath as it touches on the upper lip or around the nostrils. The yogi then needs to know whether the breath is long or short. Then the yogi needs to know the beginning, middle and end of the breath. That is all, nothing else. Once the yogi is able to know the in-and-out breath in this way, and no other object, over a long time, there may arise a nimitta, which means sign. It is a mental image that arises because of one’s concentration, because of one’s perception of the breath. With further development, eventually the breath object and the nimitta will become one. There is no difference. Then, once the yogi can sit for two or three or four hours continuously over many days without adverting to any other object, we may say that the yogi has attained the first jhāna. "
Do you see how your description doesn't match Pa-Auk?
Pa-Auk requires one see a nimitta. You did not see one. Pa-Auk requires that you concentration is merged with the nimitta for 2-4 hours straight without distraction. Not something that is done in ten minutes.
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u/SpectrumDT 12d ago
When you posted this, were you REALLY trying to be kind and helpful? Or were you trying to win an argument and feel better than someone else?
If it was the former, you could have expressed your message in a kinder way.
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u/Jevan1984 12d ago edited 12d ago
If you ever feel the need to correct me on something, please don't worry about being overly kind, I'd much rather you be funny.
Also, you might want to avoid reading the suttas. You might be shocked by how the Buddha scolded people. "You stupid, worthless man!"
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u/thewesson be aware and let be 12d ago
We're not going to approve comments scolding people or calling them worthless.
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u/JhannySamadhi 13d ago
You seem to be claiming you’re the Einstein on meditation. It takes everyone else hours per day, just not you
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u/JhannySamadhi 13d ago
You experienced access concentration. Maybe. Brasington himself says that it require 4-5 hours a day to achieve his very lite jhanas outside of retreat.
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u/periodicpoint 13d ago edited 13d ago
First of all: Thank you for sharing your perspective. :)
I know what I have experienced and it was the first (hard) jhana. Zero doubt. In particular, I can definitely distinguish access concentration, as well as the soft (lite) jhanas from the hard jhanas. However, only now 2 years later.
I appreciate Brasington a lot but just because he says xyz doesn't mean xyz is true. To believe something is only true because a person with authority said it, would be an argumentum ad verecundiam (argument from authority fallacy).
As far as I know the dharma and as far as I know through my own experience, samadhi is a continuum of states of consciousness, with attractors leading to quasi-discrete transitions with different depths, clarity, stability, refinement, etc.
As far as I understand it, different teachers have different standards and criteria for judging whether a particular experience counts as jhana. At one end of the spectrum are the soft (sutta) jhanas taught by Leigh Brasington, for example, and at the other end of the spectrum are the hard (visuddhimagga) jhanas taught by Stephen Snyder and others from the Pa-Auk Sayadaw school.
Yet, no matter what criteria you apply: The primary importance is that you practice and experience it yourself. The different levels of description are secondary. The map is not the territory. All I can say from my own experience and from reports of others is that the jhanas are accessible to lay people in normal everyday life and with a normal practice. To what percentage? I have no idea.
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u/JhannySamadhi 13d ago
It’s not only Brasington making these claims. If you can show me a legitimate teacher who says you can experience any jhana, let alone hard in an hour a day, or even three hours a day, I’ll change my perspective immediately.
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u/periodicpoint 13d ago
I appreciate that you are considering changing your mind, at least in principle. I am indeed in contact with various teachers.
Yet, meditation is not a competition for me. And far be it from me to prove anything to you or anyone else.
I'm just here on this subreddit because I appreciate the helpful perspective and concrete support and because I like to encourage others. :)
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u/JhannySamadhi 13d ago
No one claimed it’s a competition
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u/AllDressedRuffles 13d ago
Just because your karma is lethargic that doesn’t mean everyone else’s karma is
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u/JhannySamadhi 13d ago
Pa Auk and Ajahn Brahm’s karma must be terrible as well then. We all have terrible karma but the teens on r/streamentry can do it in 10 minutes a day their karma is so great. Shocking, isn’t it?
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u/AllDressedRuffles 13d ago
Meditation comes very very easy to some people, is this news to you?
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u/PaleSun1 12d ago
At 46:25 of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCLT64SLYZk
Leigh talks about practitioners unintentionally stumbling into the 7th jhana, and mentions that any of these states can be unintentionally stumbled into. He doesn't mention practice time, but I don't get the sense from the way that he speaks about this that he's saying this can only happen in intensive practice environments.
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u/JhannySamadhi 12d ago
A brief stumbling (which would still require serious meditation), is not abiding in jhana. It kicks you out immediately because it’s so intense. Jhana is to purify the mind and supercharge vipassana. That doesn’t happen in a second or so. And it’s most likely that he means on retreat.
I have him in writing saying it requires 4-5 hours per day outside of retreat. This is the standard amount of time prescribed. It’s well known. Pa Auk says slightly more. I don’t know why everyone is so resistant to it. It’s possible to feel absolutely ecstatic in access concentration long before you’re deep enough for jhana. I guess people really want to call access concentration jhana, but it’s not. Jhana is tremendously intense, it’s not standard meditative bliss.
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u/Impulse33 Burbea STF & jhanas, some Soulmaking 13d ago edited 13d ago
Brasington himself says that it require 4-5 hours a day to achieve his very lite jhanas outside of retreat.
Source?
His book mentions 45 daily practice to increase chances of entering first jhana in a retreat. He never specifies "requirements" as far as I can tell.
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u/JhannySamadhi 13d ago
That’s the daily minimum if you want to be able to enter jhana on retreat. He makes this claim in the book, ‘The Experience of Samadhi’ in an interview with the author.
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u/Impulse33 Burbea STF & jhanas, some Soulmaking 13d ago
I think it would be helpful if your gate keeping would be more rigorous to avoid discouraging people from potentially useful meditative experiences. Your first claim mentioned requiring 4-5 hours outside of retreat to achieve Brasington's "lite" jhanas, now it's 4-5 hours inside retreat?
Your source does not specify anything definitive either. Brasington claims 4-5 hours in retreat is what he suspects is required to get to what he thinks the Buddha's level of absorption was (which nobody can really know). He still makes no claims on requirements for lighter levels of absorption in the jhanas.
Excerpt from "The Experience of Samadhi" below:
Leigh Brasington: We don’t really know for certain what the Buddha was teaching as jhanas, although I strongly suspect that the Buddha was teaching deeper concentration than I do. Over time I have learned that there are a number of different methods. The methods generally have two things you can optimize—but only one at a time. The first is the ease of accessibility and the other is the depth of concentration. So if the question is, why am I teaching what I am teaching as the jhanas, I would say that the level at which I teach them seems to be the level at which laypeople can learn them and use- them effectively. In other words, I’m giving up some of the depth of concentration for ease of learning. Given that lay people are going on ten-day, two-week, maybe month-long retreats, what can be taught in that period of time that can enhance students’ practice by enhancing their concentration?
RS: It sounds as though you are saying that there can be a range o f depth of samadhi associated with any given jhana state. That what constitutes jhana is only partially the strength of concentration, but more the other associated factors.
L B : That’s right. Although it would be good if students were learning the jhanas at a deeper level, I’m not going to say, “Well, since you can’t do it at value 100, we’re going to dismiss anything you do at value 50 or 25.” It turns out that 'any amount of concentration as a warm-up to insight is helpful. And given that students are stumbling into states that have the jhana factors and that they are generally stumbling in at approximately the level of concentration at which I’m teaching, it seems like it’s a natural level to teach to laypeople. If someone wants to learn the jhanas at a deeper level, then they are going to need to dedicate more time to working with the jhanas, such as finding a long-term intensive retreat environment. My hunch is that the level of concentration that the Buddha was teaching cannot be achieved on a retreat ofless than a month and, furthermore, can not be achieved in forty-five-minute sitting periods. My own experience has shown me depths of concentration that do more closely match the experi ences described in the suttas, but these can only be attained with long sit ting periods of three or four hours, and on a long retreat of a month or more.-2
13d ago
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u/Impulse33 Burbea STF & jhanas, some Soulmaking 13d ago
You're attributing your claims to Leigh Brasington. I'm saying you're interpreting his words in your sources incorrectly.
I'm not calling out the masters, I'm calling out your words. There's a difference.
Please show me a source from legitimate teachers that says you can get anywhere close to jhana in what the article claims.
As far as I know, the suttas simply describe jhanas through jhana factors and simile. First jhana entry is also characterized by seclusion of the hindrances. Time requirements are not stated. In my view it's quality over quantity. Why measure jhana on time rather than how it compares to what's written in the suttas?
Jhana factors do not necessarily equal jhana, period.
Can you elaborate?
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u/Gojeezy 13d ago edited 13d ago
>Why measure jhana on time rather than how it compares to what's written in the suttas?
People do and it's uncertain just like suggesting a general amount of time. People have wildly different interpretations of what the suttas meant. Many people think they are secluded from the hindrances and even are enlightened from just hearing about the general idea of the path. So when I get someone claiming nirodha from a few hours of practice, I think they must not know what they are even saying. And so I would throw out the time it took me and others I know about and suggest that if they aren't putting in that degree of effort then it is unlikely.
Why? Because time is usually what these sorts of people aren't putting in. Even when they think they are experiencing all jhanas and nirodha and all stages of awakening I can't tell them they are wrong necessarily. What I can say is can you sit and meditate for an hour without moving? No? Probably not a master of jhana then. In fact, someone like that probably doesn't even have a firm grasp on what it means to be mindful.
IMO, JhannySamadhi's 'gatekeeping' is actually 'keeping it real'.
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u/Impulse33 Burbea STF & jhanas, some Soulmaking 13d ago
I generally agree about being suspicious, but time is still a bad proxy. This type of gatekeeping detracts away from actual dialogue. I think instead of shutting people down, we can work to understand what their practice actually entails and then see how their practice is affecting their own suffering/freedom.
I'm all for clarifying people's place on the path, but only if it's done skillfully and if it's helpful. In the spirit of this sub, shouldn't we investigate what's helpful through our own practical experience instead of parroting arbitrary measures from others? Not to mention, in this case, the claim attributed to Leigh Brasington is clearly incorrect. On review of his work, LB is pretty careful not to make any sweeping claims, which seems pretty consistent with other respected teachers.
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u/Impulse33 Burbea STF & jhanas, some Soulmaking 13d ago
Same story here!
It was absolutely madenning trying to find an explanation from teachers. All I would get was, "bring your attention back to your breath," or "keep letting go".
It's not bad advise per se, but giving no explanation to a potentially positive impactful experience was frustrating. The ability to cultivate positive mindsets isn't something to just set aside in my experience.
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u/Inittornit 14d ago
I think Kenneth Folk talks about moving up and down through the jhanas in seconds. He doesn't really make a big deal of this, like it isn't a selling point of his books, or a driving force of his presented personality and the consensus seems to be Kenneth is the real deal. However, he has a ton of time logged in meditation. This website you posted is interesting, the author has no real history of meditation and even on retreat was doing like 5 hour days. They are a true adept, or experiencing something else and calling it jhana, or delusional, or a liar. You would need to do some more investigating to know for sure.
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u/veritasmeritas 13d ago
Ken Folk's 'books'? He almost finished one...
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u/Inittornit 13d ago
My apologies, how about "in his writings"?
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u/veritasmeritas 13d ago
Apologies, I have a problem with that individual and it leaked out.
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u/SpectrumDT 12d ago
I really appreciate the humility and self-insight of this comment. :)
Other redditors in this thread could learn from your example in my opinion...
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u/WanderBell 13d ago
Does KF still talk while demonstrating moving up and down through the jhanas?
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u/Inittornit 13d ago
Yeah, if I recall he puts up fingers as a method of communicating which jhana he is in.
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u/fabkosta 13d ago
In my experience there are vast differences in capacity for concentration meditation among practitioners. For some (including me) it just comes very easy. For many others not so much. When I was working with a teacher I had to stop doing concentration as preparation for mindfulness because whenever I got concentrated no mental content would come up to work with.
Having that said, there is a never-settled dispute whether or not being in the jhanas is accompanied or not with the consciousness of sound and/or your surroundings. This is not clarified in the account. Nevertheless, the description matches my own experiences pretty well.
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u/XanthippesRevenge 13d ago
People experience all kinds of things, sometimes they understand their experiences and sometimes they are confused. Anything is possible. But that has no bearing on what you can experience so I would focus on that. Also, intent and self belief are powerful assistants on the path. Doubting your ability to succeed in the dharma can manifest in lack of progression. So it’s good to believe we are capable of great feats, as long as we also cultivate humility
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u/proverbialbunny :3 12d ago
The jhanas are like a walk in the park. You obtain the next one when you get bored of exploring the previous. Speed of attainment in this situation isn’t a good thing. It’s a relaxing enjoyable experience you take your time with and if you’re virtuous enough you have gratitude for it. Attainments are overrated.
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u/dhammadragon1 14d ago
I sit for almost 30 years now and I have only attained the jhanas in long retreats with at least 10 hours sitting daily. While I don't focus on the jhanas, I do Vipassana, they are coming as a byproduct. At home I sit 3-4 hours daily and I have access concentration most of the time. BUT the jump from access concentration to the jhanas is not easy in a normal life setting. For most people it will only happen in a strict retreat setting.
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u/karlitooo 13d ago
I agree it’s unlikely to happen spontaneously via vipassana style, but most meditators can follow the steps to induce them and with practice it’s easy-ish. But to me the mechanism seems counter to the aims Goneka sets out
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u/No_Anywhere_9068 13d ago
I’m curious how you define access concentration, what is your experience of it like ?
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u/dhammadragon1 13d ago
Access Concentration means all Five Jhana Factors are present but are not strong enough. Access concentration is the stage before the jhanas. It's like a mature concentration , you're able to concentrate for longer periods of time without disruption. Put in laypersons terminology, if one can stay with the meditation object (such as the breath) for at least two to five minutes without a break or an unnoticed break in attention on the object, then one has achieved the required amount of "access". I would say its the point when it no longer takes much effort to stay with the breath. The Mind is becoming still, and any thoughts that do arise don't distract you from watching your breath.
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u/JhannySamadhi 13d ago
It’s very common for people to consider access concentration jhana. It’s not.
Light access concentration feels like you’re immersed in white light and you feel like a trillion dollars. It seems really special, but it’s a long way from jhana.
Whoever is writing the article has no idea what they’re talking about. No one achieves jhana with that minuscule amount of meditation. Most people need at least two hours a day just to enter access concentration.
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u/tehmillhouse 13d ago
I feel like there's a productive and differentiated conversation to be had about the spectrum of hardness of jhana, and which levels are realistic for people to achieve with different amounts of dedication and time on their hands...
But that conversation WILL NOT begin with someone stating "This isn't jhana". What you're referring to as "jhana", everyone else in the pragmatic community at least prefixes as "hard" or "Pa Auk-Style" or even "ultrahard" jhana. I get that you're trying to communicate that these super concentrated states are qualitatively different from some light buzziness, and worth getting into... but is this really a good way to talk about this? You could just say "hard jhana" instead instead of arguing about definitions all the time.
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u/Mango-dreaming 13d ago
Not a teacher but I feel you can enter Lite and go deeper. I intended to enter a Lite Jhana while reading this thread, and then marinated for a while and it got deeper. My direct experience is of Jhana as a state mind and level of absorption. You can go deeper before you go in. Or deeper when you are in. But to me Jhana is state of mind independent from depth.
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u/JhannySamadhi 13d ago
I’m saying no one other than masters are achieving any kind of jhana without several hours per day. I’m open to hearing from respected teachers who say otherwise, but I’m yet to find them
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u/tehmillhouse 13d ago
Rob Burbea taught that once practiced in them, you can incline the mind toward the jhanas while queueing at the cashier. But then again, his definition of jhanas was basically just the presence and continued encouragement of jhana factors -- the exact definition you deny.
Given Rob's or Leigh Brasington's definition of jhana, I personally have gotten into the form jhanas based on about an hour per day of practice. Without ever having gone on retreat until that point. The reason I got into this whole Awakening rabbit hole in the first place is because I had piti suddenly appear while I was concentrating on driving my car. I'm also aware of people who've meditated for 20 years and never even got piti to appear, so clearly there's some spectrum of innate ability here. And honestly, claiming that no one can access a particular state of consciousness under certain conditions is a weird hill to die on. Like sure, I personally can't call up cessations on command, but would I swear that it's impossible? I've heard talk of people being able to do that, and what do I know of their brain?
So I'm still not sure what to make of your comments here, to be honest. Either you're using some definition of jhana that I've never heard before, or you can't conceive of some people having easier access to some states than you yourself? Or maybe you're calling everyone in this thread a bold-faced liar? The reason "access concentration" has that name is because it's the level of concentration you need to access jhana, so saying "access concentration is a long way from jhana" is kinda... weird.
Anyways, I'm noticing I don't actually have a point here, but I can't make heads or tails of what you're saying. You don't have to engage me or anything, and I hope you have a nice day.
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u/JhannySamadhi 13d ago
That is not Rob Burbea’s definition of jhana. The presence of jhana factors is what marks access concentration. It’s only jhana when it’s all pulled together by ekaggata. The only issue here is that you need more research. No one is achieving jhana in an hour a day unless they’ve already mastered them. Access concentration feels incredible, as if you’re enlightened, but it’s not jhana.
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u/Gojeezy 13d ago
Situations like this really makes me wonder what people think nirodha is. There isn't a jhana lite or access concentration version of it.
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u/JhannySamadhi 13d ago
All jhanas are entered through access concentration (upacara samadhi). The deeper the access concentration the deeper the jhanas. For people who aren’t masters, the jhanas happen sequentially. It is possible to enter at the formless attainments without the form jhanas, but it’s far easier to enter from the fourth jhana, as they are simply variations of it. So for most people to enter NS, they start with deep access concentration, then go through all form and formless jhanas and enter nirodha from the base of neither perception or non perception (which simply means nonconceptual awareness).
Another way to experience nirodha is through open presence meditation or koans, although it’s often a briefer and lighter experience (kensho). This however also requires retreats. Kensho rarely happens before the fourth day of sesshin, and usually requires multiple sesshins before it happens for most people. Some people attend 4+ sesshins a year and don’t experience deep kensho for several years.
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u/Gojeezy 13d ago
What is the difference between nirodha as upacara samadhi and nirodha as appana samadhi?
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u/JhannySamadhi 13d ago
Apanna samadhi means absorption, so it’s where jhana commences. Jhana are essentially deepening flavors of apanna samadhi. So apanna comes from stabilizing upacara to a very high degree. You know you’re in it by the absorption. When it feels like you’ve been snatched up and yanked into something, upacara has transitioned to apanna.
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u/Gojeezy 13d ago
So what is the experience of upacara samadhi nirodha? Is it the difference in being able to be recalled by hearing your name, for example, and not?
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u/JhannySamadhi 13d ago
You have to go through the jhanas in appana to get to nirodha. You can’t enter it from upacara.
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u/SpectrumDT 12d ago
Nadia (who wrote the article linked by OP) says that she went on a Jhourney retreat.
I just finished a Jhourney retreat myself. I did not reach jhana, but one person I talked to reached a jhana very early, and another reached a jhana on the last day. So I have reason to believe that it is possible.
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u/Gojeezy 13d ago edited 13d ago
Not unless the person is a savant. And you would know from just a few minutes of interacting with them if they were wired differently enough from normal humans to achieve it (they would seem noticeably different from normal people).
Usually, it's someone that doesn't know what they are really saying -- like I have come across this a few thousand times in the last 15 years and never actually met a jhana savant.
From a quick google search I can tell she isn't someone getting into legit nirodha.
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