Are the three knowledges necessary for liberation?

[u/Solip123]

If so, what is their nature and how are they acquired?

In the Sāmaññaphala-sutta, for instance, the three knowledges (tevijja) are listed as being necessary (among others; note that in some parallels the others are not listed). And there are numerous other suttas where it is implied that they are a necessary component of the path. Also, the Buddha's awakening is proceeded by tevijja.

However, there is no explanation in the suttas as to how they might be acquired. There is evidently a marked disjunction between the attainment of the fourth jhana and tevijja.

Roderick Bucknell & Martin Stuart-Fox believe that the answers may lie in "retracing thought sequences" and "observation of linking [of thoughts]."

The following two papers cover this, though the first is the most crucial to understand:

https://martinstuartfox.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/bucknell-and-stuart-fox-1983-religion_three-knowledges-1.pdf

https://martinstuartfox.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/did-the-buddha-impart-an-esoteric-teaching.pdf

As for how one gets from the 4th jhana to tevijja, perhaps it is through what Bucknell translates as the 'reviewing-sign' (i.e., pacca-vekkhana-nimitta) (cf. AN 5.28). The idea being that one lets a single thought arise in the mind, contemplates it, and enters a "fifth" jhana (i.e., quasi-1st jhana) before preceding with the aforementioned techniques. This would ostensibly bridge the gap.

Lastly, here is a relevant quote from Thomas Metzinger:

"Saṃsāra is aimless wandering, jumping from one unit to the next. But now we are beginning to understand that all of this is a nested process that happens on many functional levels and timescales. For example, today we can view rebirth as the cycle of successive existence of ever- new biological copying devices, but also as a transmigration from one conscious unit of identification to the next. Saṃsāra in this new sense is a self- organizing biological or mental system going through a succession of states, leading to the impermanent functional embodiment of ever- new units of identification— but in a process that has no direction and no ultimate goal and creates an enormous amount of conscious suffering. Saṃsāra is a scale- invariant principle of conscious life. As it happens on many levels simultaneously, in life and in mind, we could call this naturalistic reinterpretation of what the cycle of death and rebirth really is 'nested saṃsāra.'"

What are your thoughts?

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[u/vipassanamed]

Of the three knowledges, only the third, the destruction of the cankers, is necessary for enlightenment and this can be acquired by following the four foundations of mindfulness as set out in the satipatthana sutta.

There are suttas in which this is mentioned, such as the Susimaparibbājakasutta, where the Buddha confirms that many of the monks in the sangha are enlightened but do not have the psychic powers.:

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.70/en/bodhi?lang=en&reference=none&highlight=false

Here's a link to the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta:

https://suttacentral.net/mn10/en/horner?lang=en&reference=none&highlight=false

[u/Solip123 → u/vipassanamed]

The susima sutta is quite controversial, and in other suttas it is heavily implied that the three knowledges are necessary

[u/vipassanamed → u/Solip123]

There are so many suttas in the Pali canon and we can often pick and choose ones that we think fit our view of the practice.I think we have to keep an open mind towards them all. The susima one is supported by other suttas and I think that the satipatthana sutta is a strong one of those, but there are also snippets among many other suttas in which the Buddha says that it is the destruction of the cankers that is the way to realise enlightenment, not the psychic powers.

[u/jameslanna]

My two cents. As the document states, today's modern practitioners cling to scientific principles, particularly the belief that everything in this world is based on physical matter and that the mind and consciousness are purely products of atoms, molecules, and chemical processes.

In the Buddhist worldview, there is indeed a physical realm, consisting of things like our physical bodies, created by atoms, molecules, cells, and chemical processes. However, there is also a more subtle dimension—the mental world. This mental world can be understood as mental energy, permeating all universes across infinite time and space.

Our mind and consciousness are made up of this mental energy.

The key point is that mental energy, being a more subtle substance, is not limited by physical constraints like time and space.

The whole of Buddhist practice is to purify the mind and remove clinging to worldly existence.

Once the mind is free from self-imposed constraints of physical reality, it can perceive this much more subtle mental energy, specifically the mental energy free from the limitations of the physical body.

That’s why there are stories of yogis who can read other people’s minds, use their divine ear to hear from very far away, pass through physical walls, etc.

As the mind’s mental powers develop further, it gains access to this vast mental energy.

Think of something comparable to quantum physics.

The whole point of practice is to develop and purify the mind, creating a stream of pure mental energy that can be used for any task, including obtaining the three knowledges. AN5.23

And yes, they are necessary for liberation. Without seeing the countless cycles of rebirth—which ultimately amount to nothing and are often filled with pure suffering—the mind will always seek to attach itself to some form of existence, for example existences in the higher realms, which have bliss and very little suffering.

[u/Solip123 → u/jameslanna]

The problem is that, even if we grant that the three knowledges are meant to be taken literally, it isn't clear how they would be acquired. Moreover, if dependent origination is at the heart of the Buddha's soteriology - when distilled to its very core - what insight but that is needed? Why wouldn't insight into the nature of one's own mind suffice for liberation?! It just (IMO) doesn't make sense when taken literally, even if you are not a materialist (and I am not).

[u/jameslanna → u/Solip123]

Unfortunately, trying to figure this out through logic or words is not useful. We're not trying to create new preconceived notions but to destroy the ones we already have.

Interestingly questions may actually block the path of progress as they create a mental block depending how they're asked. We should ask ourselves a question and wait for the answer to come from within. If the mind is purified enough, the answer will come back in the future when we are not expecting it, not as logic or words but as insight. The expectation is greed which blinds us from insight.

Insight is not about gaining knowledge; it's about removing ignorance and the self-imposed boundaries of the mind, so that insight can arise by itself.

Think of an interconnected network of mental energy, which contains all the information or knowledge that ever existed and is accessible by all parts of the network something like quantum physics.

Taking existence as a being in any realm requires cutting yourself off from this vast unconditioned mental energy. Some beings are more cut off than others. As humans we do have the possibility to access this mental energy.

I believe they are called the "three knowledges" not because they grant anything new, but because they free you from all knowledge. Knowledge or objectification is suffering and binds us to Samsara.

The only way forward is to purify the mind, develop our own insight, and that requires practice. As we practice and experience for ourselves what the Buddha meant, we develop faith and confidence.

What once seemed strange and impossible becomes clearer. The world is turned upside down.

As the mind is purified, it becomes evident where this path leads. It naturally reveals how one might acquire any powers or knowledge.

We begin to realize that the mind’s attachment to the body and physical existence is created by clinging to the five aggregates.

Once we start to free ourselves from the five aggregates, deeper insights development, free from the constraints of the physical world.

And yes, insight into the nature of one's own mind is sufficient, because nothing can be experienced outside the mind. Beyond that, I'm not sure how to describe any more using words.

[u/jameslanna → u/Solip123]

AN4. 41 And what, monks, is the development of concentration that, when developed and pursued, leads to the destruction of the taints? Here, monks, a monk dwells contemplating the rise and fall in the five aggregates subject to clinging: 'Such is form, such is the arising of form, such is the passing away of form; such is feeling, such is the arising of feeling, such is the passing away of feeling; such is perception, such is the arising of perception, such is the passing away of perception; such are formations, such is the arising of formations, such is the passing away of formations; such is consciousness, such is the arising of consciousness, such is the passing away of consciousness.' This is the development of concentration that leads to the destruction of the taints.

[u/Solip123 → u/jameslanna]

But all of that must be done before the fourth jhana (or ninth?)

[u/jameslanna → u/Solip123]

We should read the suttas ourselves, gain our own insight, and not rely solely on what people like me say.

[u/jameslanna → u/Solip123]

AN9. 36 Here a disciple, having secluded himself from sensual pleasures... enters and dwells in the first jhāna.

Whatever there is in that state of form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those phenomena as impermanent, suffering, a disease, a boil, a dart, a calamity, an affliction, alien, disintegrating, empty, not-self.

He turns his mind away from those phenomena.

Having turned his mind away from those phenomena, he directs his mind towards the deathless element: This is peaceful, this is sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.

Standing upon that, he attains the destruction of the taints.

[u/Solip123 → u/jameslanna]

This is very vague and skips the other jhanas

[u/jameslanna → u/Solip123]

Only part of the sutta was posted—read the entire sutta. If you we're able to already dwell in Jhana and read nothing else but this sutta, understood it fully, and practiced it correctly, it would lead to complete liberation. It's not vague, it's our expectation of how knowledge should be presented that's preventing us from progress.

[u/Solip123 → u/jameslanna]

I see. The sutta does seem to imply that the three knowledges are not necessary and that insight is intrinsic to jhanas (the latter of which I already suspected).

"Again, a bhikkhu has grasped well the object of reviewing, attended to it well, sustained it well, and penetrated it well with wisdom. Just as one person might look upon another—as one standing might look upon one sitting down, or one sitting down might look upon one lying down—so too, a bhikkhu has grasped well the object of reviewing, attended to it well, sustained it well, and penetrated it well with wisdom. This is the fifth development of noble five-factored right concentration."

"Object of reviewing" is sometimes also translated as "reviewing-sign."

Does this just mean reflection upon the impermanent, unsatisfactory, and not-self natures of each jhanic state?

"Moreover, data obtained from reviewing a jhāna form the basis of the insight that leads to another"

Maybe this is what it is referring to? But the fact that it says it is the fifth development of right concentration makes me think that is not the case.

[u/jameslanna → u/Solip123]

It's not useful to make predetermined judgments about what may or may not be necessary. We are all different. The important point is that if you have Right View, you will find the way by yourself.

There's no need to get caught up in or cling to the wording in the discourses, as the translations are not perfect, and he was speaking to a different audience that needed to be addressed in that way.

The core teachings of the Buddha are about letting go of greed and aversion, releasing attachment to the five aggregates, gaining insight into the Four Noble Truths, and understanding the impermanent or unreliable, unsatisfactory, and not-self nature of all phenomena.

Different teachings approach this from various directions, but they are all doorways to liberation. Another sutta discussed seeing the five aggregates as impermanent, suffering, and not-self. As a boil, dart ....

This teaching is about realizing that these same three characteristics are not only true in this plane of existence but also in even the most subtle planes of existence. Jhana is a purified mind. It is not something you try to create or attain—it is the result of following the gradual training of the Eightfold Path. The whole purpose of gradual training is to methodically purify the mind, starting with Sila and move on to finer and finer afflictions. We can abide in Jhana by practicing Sila correctly. Therefore, we must be careful about preconceived notions regarding meditation and Jhana.

Regarding your comment, yes, it does refer to the different Jhanas.

But it's better that you answer your own questions. Not through seeking words or knowledge but through insight so that you develop Right View. Right View is not some attribute that one gains. It is not a noun or adjective it is a verb. It is the gradual process of clearing the mind of preconceived notions or views, and ingrained perceptions.

The following is not a judgment about you it's just a general statement:

When I first started out I wanted to know the end goal, how am I going to get there. That's the way the world works. These teachings turn the world upside down, and logic and preconceived notions just can't be used.

So instead of starting at the end, would it be better to start at the beginning?

Almost everybody underestimates the power of virtue, thinking it's some kind of self-imposed sacrifice. Purifying the mind requires letting go of greed and aversion. We can't get rid of subtle greed and aversion required of Jhana if we can't even get rid of the gross forms in our actions, speech, and thoughts.

You actually don't need to practice anything else other than Sila as long as you understand that Sila practice is for detachment from the world, not entanglement, it will lead to Right View. Sila includes your thoughts. If you can remove greed and aversion from your thoughts then there's nothing else to be said.

[u/Solip123 → u/jameslanna]

It is the gradual process of clearing the mind of preconceived notions or views, and ingrained perceptions.

I think "right view" is actually the opposite of this. It is the end result of having laid the groundwork (i.e., having ingrained certain concepts) for insight to take hold in ever-deeper meditative states. This is what Eviatar Shulman argues, anyway.

However, right view as it is used in the suttas refers to the very beginning of the path - basically, deciding that it is worth it to practice.

I do agree with the last part, though I am not sure how I can practice to rewire the motivational system sufficiently - the essential role of Sila - without living off-grid as a hermit.

[u/jameslanna → u/Solip123]

It's not easy to put these things into words. But basically Right View is having realized that nothing in this world can bring lasting satisfaction, is dependable and can be taken personally. Basically everything that we think will bring us happiness, anything that we desire is empty, it is mind created, it doesn't exist in the world, it's a mind-created illusion. When we see this clearly there is no decision to make, there is renunciation, the automatic result from seeing the worthlessness of chasing our desires.

It doesn't mean you don't enjoy things anymore it just means you don't desire them. When you realize all the stress these desires have created in your life you renounce them.

You will actually have more happiness and pleasure in life when you don't expect anything.

Renunciation doesn't mean you have to live like a hermit. You can still do a lot of things that you're doing now but you will do them detached without expectations and based on long term happiness, not based on constantly changing desires, greed and aversion.

Of course some habits and actions will have to be dropped because they just cause too much disturbance and stress an obstruct long-term happiness.

[u/DukkhaNirodha]

There are similes given in AN 5:28 for how the fourth jhana serves as a foundation for the higher knowledges. But the important part is this: knowledge of the ending of the effluents is the only higher knowledge required for enlightenment. There isn't anything extra required for that besides the instructions the Buddha already laid out for attaining nibbana.

[u/Solip123 → u/DukkhaNirodha]

Yes, I agree. It would seem that what is needed, ultimately, is insight into the nature of conditioned arising, and nothing more. And one's own mind ought to be plenty for that! So, if taken literally, I cannot understand why the three knowledges would be necessary. But, if taken figuratively/symbolically, it makes much more sense (IMO).

[u/DukkhaNirodha → u/Solip123]

It makes sense why the three knowledges were necessary for the Buddha, for setting rolling the wheel of Dhamma.

[u/AlexCoventry]

The first two knowledges as represented in the "The ‘three knowledges’ of Buddhism: Implications of Buddhadasa's interpretation of rebirth" are necessary for the third. You can't develop a useful understanding of the Four Noble Truths (i.e., the third knowledge) without practical examples of suffering.

(But, for those who haven't read the article: Ven. Buddhadasa describes a very modest version of these knowledges, pertaining to recollection of mental events and their consequences in this life.)