r/streamentry • u/wordscapes69 • 9d ago
Dzogchen Rigpa
The more I read about dzogchen the harder I find a difference between resting in awareness, which is similar to the 6th jhana and that being rigpa, I’ve read some claims online where mastering this leads to the same experience at nirodha but without cessation and 100% cognition. I find this hard to believe cuz anyone who has mastered the 6th jhana may find lil to no difference while attaining higher jhanas.
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u/flowfall I've searched. I've found. I Know. I share. 9d ago edited 9d ago
Short answer: 6th jhana still has a subtle but substantial feeling of localization relative to an individual knower. (Not truly formless or selfless just more so than gross phenomenon) Every later jhana is closer to awakening so will sound more similar. Similar =/= Same. Rigpa is easier pointed than spoken about. Jhanas are still subtly clouded by personal view. Rigpa can't be claimed personally. Being the source of self/not-self, form/formlessness, to equate it with formlessness(even if partially accurate) would be an oversimplification that reinforces grasping at formlessness. Right view= Non-view as primary.
Long answer:
Rigpa is self-illuminated non-view. It's cessation and non cessation before they were habitually interpreted as distinct. Non-local non-exclusive superposition of all potentials of consciousness might be more accurate. This can't be imagined so even if you try and the idea seems neat, it's not it as these would require a fixed position/definition/collapsed observer as distinct.
The jhanas are a progressive deconstruction of views/attentional density/filtering. The deeper into the jhanas you get the closer to non-view you get so the further on the more similar it'll sound.
The last layers to go are pre-personal and can be considered as a deconstruction of internal environment. Space, stillness, light, consciousness, singularity, knowingness/existence.... So on and so forth. These are all pre-personal qualities.
Historically it's tricky to convey how you're using 'things' to point at neither thing nor nothingness. So naturally there'll be a lot of mystery and confusion associated with it over time. But pointing to pre-personal layers provisionally has often been a good jumping off point to more easily point out rigpa itself. Rigpa is like everything but unlike anything as well so...
People have mistaken jhanas for awakening often. The way forward has always been sensitivity and non grasping. These optimize the subtlety of discernment so that we can notice what we may not have before but make no conclusions about where we are now so we're continuously open to more. But given anyone's relative level of dullness/lack of fully illuminated presence/unconsciousness... One doesn't know what they don't know.
Rigpa isn't consciousness. It's not a phenomenal quality. It can't really be rested 'in' either. Yet we must point with what people can recognize so they open up to a continuum of non grasping. As they get used to the continuum we start to withdraw pointers allowing the nongrasping to refine itself. The continuum evolves into a fruit that can't be reduced to a pointer but that any pointer could've provisionally served along the way. Reality is awake as something state independent and that can be known with or without jhanas.
In imagination things can seem more similar than they really are. Our imaginations are only corrected with experience but before then we're prone to take them as likely representations. Confirmation bias due to lack of discernment is particularly tricky.
Rigpa ultimately ends up blossoming as a combination of all of these things.
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u/fabkosta 9d ago
Dzogchen starts with receiving direct introduction from a qualified teacher, which is "experiential". This implies that reading about it is insufficient to gain an understanding.
Rigpa may perhaps sound like the 6th jhana, but it's very different, both experientially and also from a theoretical perspective. In short, you can rest in rigpa while being in the 6th jhana, or you can equally be in the 6th jhana and not rest in rigpa. This implies that the two are decoupled and independent of each other.
The reason why dzogchen material is generally restricted is to prevent students to develop fundamental misunderstanding of the teachings. (Whether this is a good strategy in the 21st century is a different question.)
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u/aspirant4 9d ago
I mean no disrespect, but I hear this kind of thing a lot, and all I hear is it's like 6th jhana but with more dogma, woo and gatekeeping. What am I missing?
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u/fabkosta 9d ago
Why don't you simply try it out? Practice the 6th jhana first. Then go find a dzogchen teacher and practice dzogchen. And then you will not have to go to reddit to discuss but actually can speak from experience.
My own experience from doing exactly what I just said tells me: they are not the same at all.
Most likely, what you are missing, is that the view actually matters. Many theravada practitioners are not very familiar with this term, but it becomes decisive when practicing in vajrayana, particularly mahamudra or dzogchen.
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u/ryclarky 9d ago
What is meant by view here? Just traditional Right View as taught by the Buddha? From what I understand about that it doesn't have anything directly to do with one's awareness.
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u/fabkosta 9d ago
It's way more complicated than that. In Atiyoga the view has a big impact on both your meditation and on the results you get. I will not say more because these things are exactly the reason why in vajrayana/atiyoga you absolutely do need a teacher who points these things out to you. The vast majority of people who just read books simply don't understand these very subtle points. I know because I was one of those people.
Here's a pointer, though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/View_(Dzogchen))
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u/25thNightSlayer 9d ago
Can you make it simple? I thought Rigpa was about simplicity?
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u/Fortinbrah Dzogchen | Counting/Satipatthana 9d ago
One thing I could say is that Rigpa is a frictionless state. Since you are unhooked from fixation on phenomena - your experience is quite effortless and free.
That is just on a basic level; many phenomenal effects can appear that kind of accompany the meditation.
Is that kind of answering the question at all?
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u/fabkosta 9d ago
There are entire libraries elaborating the simplicity of dzogchen.
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u/25thNightSlayer 9d ago
No, you misunderstand. I don’t mean to argue or anything, I’m just asking for something pith from your experience.
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u/Fortinbrah Dzogchen | Counting/Satipatthana 9d ago edited 9d ago
Something can be relatively simple but also subtle enough that it’s difficult to discuss. The main thing with Dzogchen is that there are specific ways to see whether a person is engaging in object oriented (samsaric) thinking, or awareness based (freedom, nirvanic) thinking, and that is what a teacher does.
Making it simple really depends on the student but if you want really simple instructions - there are many online. If you just want simple information, the four Chogsyaks or the four samayas of Dzogchen both describe aspects of correct view/meditation, but you can see they’re somewhat worthless unless you’re actually practicing and have a teacher that can explain them.
Or unless you’re sufficiently immersed in meditation or anything to be able to grasp; but sometimes that departs from the idea of simplicity.
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u/deepmindfulness 9d ago
Having the skill of experiencing something is a different vertical than having the skill of communicating that thing. Yet another skill is being able to communicate that to the person in front of you.
Some of these terms are in fact, universal, and some of the terms are extremely technique, specific and culturally entangled and impossible to separate out from the practice itself.
I might be wrong, but I believe something that’s trying to be communicated. Here is that the person is pointing >specifically to those things which cannot be translated in a text box.
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u/Impulse33 Burbea STF & jhanas, some Soulmaking 9d ago
I take it as the "view" or understanding and expectations that are brought into an experience affects how a person will interpret and understand the experience.
Let's take a consciousness blackout, if it happens through meditation it may be liberative. If it happens because somebody took repeated heroic doses of psychedelics to get there it's probably more likely to cause ptsd.
So for 6th and rigpa, the context and what a person may be sensitive to during those states are necessarily different due to the different paths of entry with all the different associated context.
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u/Fortinbrah Dzogchen | Counting/Satipatthana 9d ago
Awareness is the view, and it’s also right view…
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u/Fortinbrah Dzogchen | Counting/Satipatthana 9d ago
6th Jhana can be samsaric, Dzogchen meditation is not.
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u/duffstoic Love-drunk mystic 9d ago edited 9d ago
You’re not wrong LOL. In my opinion, it’s only slightly different. There’s an important distinction, but it’s not hard to make that distinction if you can rest in awareness first.
In fact Dzogchen and Mahamudra teachers I’ve learned from will casually say things like “Before practicing Dzogchen/Mahamudra, it’s good if you can sit without any thoughts arising for an hour.” And almost nobody does that 😆. But I agree, it is good if you can do that first.
Trekcho also involves coming out of a thought-free state and basically doing a kind of vipassana with thoughts, analyzing them versus the space of awareness to both make a distinction between them, and see that there is no duality there, that thoughts are like waves on the ocean of awareness.
Then you get “spontaneous liberation“ basically where thoughts/emotions pop like soap bubbles when you examine them.
All these different traditions, but ultimately it’s the same shit described slightly differently.
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u/luminousbliss 9d ago
Rigpa is nothing like the 6th jhana, this is precisely why you need a teacher to explain these concepts.
The jhanas all occur within the ordinary, samsaric mind (alaya). Rigpa goes beyond this entirely. It’s not a meditative absorption, it’s the recognition of the nature of the mind, which results in relinquishment of all clinging, reification, focus, meditation, objectification, etc.
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u/Impulse33 Burbea STF & jhanas, some Soulmaking 9d ago edited 9d ago
Looking to clarify my own experiences here. It seems the key here is the "rest". In a way all the formless jhanas have "one taste". Each has an extremely dominant object in cognition. In my rigpa-like experiences in waking life the "one-taste" happens in conjunction with a "seeing things as they are" , as in perfect. There's nothing to do, nowhere to go, it feels very restful. In the formless there's still something to do, mainly progression through the jhanas and seeing the deathless/unfabricated and isn't as restful, more like pit stops.
Do you think I'm touching on the right distinctions?
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u/fabkosta 9d ago
The main distinction here is: Staying in a particular jhanas is an effortful meditation, resting in rigpa is effortless.
It took me a long time and a lot of practice to understand these differences truly.
In modern language: Whatever you do during meditation is informed by a set of believes in the form of "background programs" running in your mind. Dzogchen requires you to let go of those background programs from the very beginning. Doing so is impossible for those who have not received direct introduction (not just difficult, but factually impossible, as you lack the means to actually drop your background programs). As such dzogchen is totally unique in its approach, and not comparable to any other Buddhist meditation vehicle (except maybe to essence mahamudra). This is what I personally did not understand when I was still practicing theravada vipassana, and what most people who just read books about dzogchen also don't understand. If you cannot relinquish your background processes you cannot practice dzogchen because you cannot rest in rigpa. The background processes won't let you, there will be concepts creeping in. And you can only relinquish those processes if someone has shown you - not just explained to you but demonstrated to you such that you actually got it - how to do it. Most people are not ready to receive even the direct introduction initially, and that's why other preparatory practices are taught to help those people. Dzogchen - unlike any other Buddhist meditation system - in some sense is a "top down" approach: You get the ultimate instruction first. Either you understand what to do with it, then great, now you just practice. Or you don't understand (like 99.9% of all people). Then you get some more dumbed down instructions and first do those, until you're ready to get again the ultimate instructions, and hopefully this time you'll get them. But, for 95% of people also the dumbed down instruction set does not help, so they need some further instructions that are even more dumbed down. And that's how you get all those uncounted other practices like deity yoga and the two stages, and what not.
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u/Impulse33 Burbea STF & jhanas, some Soulmaking 9d ago
Thanks, I appreciate your reply!
Just for some background, I'm coming from a more sutra mahamudra approach. From my understanding Dzogchen and mahamudra both point to the same primordial awareness and stabilization in it.
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u/fabkosta 9d ago
But they differ in how they are approached and practiced.
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u/Impulse33 Burbea STF & jhanas, some Soulmaking 9d ago
Definitely. I do think this primordial awareness is particularly unique. If it's preconceptual, then approach doesn't matter since it's prior to approach.
It's actually from the book you recommended in this sub, The Elephant and the Blind, by Metiznger that provided interesting pointers for myself.
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u/Fortinbrah Dzogchen | Counting/Satipatthana 9d ago
Yes you’re getting it; Dzogchen is objectless meditation, or rather the object is awareness/rigpa which is empty and so has no real object.
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u/Impulse33 Burbea STF & jhanas, some Soulmaking 9d ago
Cheers!
Really interesting and useful stuff!
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u/Fortinbrah Dzogchen | Counting/Satipatthana 9d ago
Yes - it’s worth going on Lotsawahouse and reading if you’re interested imo. Maybe watch one of Lama Lena’s videos as an introduction.
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u/Impulse33 Burbea STF & jhanas, some Soulmaking 9d ago
I've listened to a handful of Lama Lena videos on your suggestion, mostly overview and comparative talks. I enjoy her clear language compared to some other Dzogchen teachers. I'm particularly interested in the Kagyu lineage and will definitely seek her out when the time comes. Thanks again for the suggestions!
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u/SayadawDocBenway 9d ago edited 9d ago
I've been working with Loch Kelly's techniques (some combo of dzogchen + mahamudra) and it feels similar and but also different from what I used to think of a high equanimity while maybe being in one of the formless vipassana jhanas. The difference being that it can be brought up very quickly and to varying levels sustained in daily life. It all has to do with attention to awareness. I remember when I used to be doing vipassana every day and getting to high equanimity all the time and asked for advice on how to get a breakthrough, and a lot of the advice was awareness-y, like, investigate awareness, where is the watcher?, etc. So it feels similar to that but easier to get to, easier to sustain, and easier to do daily activities while in it.
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u/WideOne5208 8d ago
Rigpa is a nonconceptual state, you cannot really understand what it is from books, talks etc, I tried really hard for several years, it is futile, you need to experience rigpa for yourself to know what it is, and it can be almost impossible without pointing out instructions from realized master and some guidance. Rigpa differs from 6th jhana because as far as I understand arupa jhanas, you cannot have any sensations of 5 sense doors in them, but in rigpa you can do anything, feel anything, it is all inclusive in that regard.
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u/mopp_paxwell 9d ago
I have never formally practiced dzogchen myself, but I assume that it is just another aspect of the 8th Jhana (Luminous mind).
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u/Fortinbrah Dzogchen | Counting/Satipatthana 9d ago
Be careful with assumptions :p 😄
But yes, many times my teacher has said it’s the same as the luminous mind shown in the Pabhassara sutta
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u/M0sD3f13 9d ago
It's all different conceptual overlays on the same fundamental reality imo
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u/Zestyclose_Mode_2642 9d ago
There are always concepts operating, there's no such fundamental reality that is uninfluenced and separate of the mind
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u/luminousbliss 9d ago
Well that’s the thing, there’s no inherent way that reality actually is, and so anything objective that’s perceived is really a result of reification by the mind. Which is why Dzogchen is about piercing through these kinds of delusions, to the unfabricated nature of the mind. In a state of rigpa there is no fundamental reality, and no concepts.
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u/Zestyclose_Mode_2642 9d ago
Would you say that in the state of rigpa nothing arises at all?
Also genuinely curious as to how rigpa differs from notions of the deathless or nirvana from theravada buddhism
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u/luminousbliss 9d ago
Would you say that in the state of rigpa nothing arises at all?
Dzogchen masters like Longchenpa have said this. All phenomena are like illusions, and the same with awareness itself.
All external entities are like magical illusions or dreams,
The moon in water, hallucinations, or cities in the clouds—
Clearly apparent yet unreal, the very forms of emptiness.
How happy I shall be to see them from this day forth!Inner awareness, empty and clear, is the dharmakāya,
Unimpeded and pervasive like unobstructed space.
Insubstantial stirrings dissolve naturally without trace.
How wondrous this natural exhaustion of phenomena,
Wherein relinquished and remedy are freed by themselves!--
Also genuinely curious as to how rigpa differs from notions of the deathless or nirvana from theravada buddhism
Rigpa is a state of nirvana. For example, in one of Longchenpa's other texts, Stainless Space, he says:
In addition, all phenomena of saṃsāra depend on the mind, so when the essence (ngo bo) of mind is puried, saṃsāra is puried. Since the phenomena of nirvāna depend on the pristine consciousness (ye shes) of vidyā (rig pa), since one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own, all critical points are summarized by those two.
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u/Fortinbrah Dzogchen | Counting/Satipatthana 9d ago
Yes, but many conceptual overlays only work with the more gross levels of reality.
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u/M0sD3f13 9d ago
True
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u/Fortinbrah Dzogchen | Counting/Satipatthana 9d ago
In case you’re interested, this is one thing that catches many people with the “higher/lower teachings” but - in particular, it’s not like they’re meant to categorize people but rather to examine that grossness of the aspect of reality those teachings deal with.
For example one thing that really distinguishes Atiyoga (9th yana, highest “level) is that you’re directly recognizing and realizing your own awareness nature, which is endowed with the three stainless bodies of the Buddha, etc.
Now, other teachings still ultimately get you there, but there is always a sheen over the practitioner’s mind where they are working with some provisional (dualistic) aspect of reality and trying to get to unconditioned (non dual+) reality. In the 9th yana you’re already there, and so there is actually nothing left to do. But even the 8th and 7th yana teachings, which are really amazing, cool, inspiring, sublime, etc. in their own right - are just meant to get you to the 9th yana, which is simply you coming into your own realization as a Buddha.
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u/M0sD3f13 9d ago
Thank you, appreciate the insight. I am Theravadan myself but find Dzogchen and other lineages fascinating and also full of wisdom and I don't doubt they are probably just as valid paths. Any recommended reading or listening to learn more about Dzogchen?
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