Is dopamine and craving bad if it doesn't lead to suffering?

[u/redpandamaster17]

Something I've been thinking about recently is the role of dopamine / craving in my daily life. In TMI, there's a footnote where Culadasa talks about the "links of depending arising", where craving is the weak link in the chain that leads to suffering.

Using mindfulness, I've been able to eliminate a large amount of the craving in my life that leads to suffering. For example, I would often use social media such as youtube or discord to procrastinate when I had some aversion to getting work done, and I was able to get rid of that aversion.

I'm mostly wondering about the role of craving in situations that are not so clearly detrimental. Let me give two examples.

Let's say I'm chatting with a friend on a discord text channel. I see discord as this gamified, extra dopaminergic version of in person conversation. On discord, you can see if someone is typing, and this builds some anticipation of what they might say. Scientifically, this randomness and anticipation produces more dopamine than if we were talking on voice chat, or IRL. Is this craving / anticipation bad, if I don't see how it leads to suffering?

Here's another example - let's say I don't have that much work to get done today, so I wake up, and decide to spend 3 hours watching youtube videos, which is highly dopaminergic. I am confident that I will get the work that I want to get done later, and do not detect any aversion or escapism while watching youtube, or later when I do the work efficiently. Is the craving / dopamine from watching youtube bad, if it doesn't lead to suffering?

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[u/acacia-rosa]

Dopamine doesn't equal craving.

Your relationship to the varying levels of dopamine is in my perspective the key to understanding craving.

Dopamine is a key player in addictive patterns of generating craving but it's never the dopamine or the associated rush with an elevation in dopamine levels it's your relationship to that experience.

Can you experience a rush of dopamine without clinging to it? Without grieving it's demise before it's even gone? Does your mind immediately rush to conspiring ways to make this feeling live on?

Or can you stay in a present relaxed state taking in the whole arc of the experience? Treating it like any other, maintaining the balance of your mind throughout but also taking it in fully and therefore also experiencing full enjoyment of it.

I've had some highly addictive tendencies throughout my life and so this has been one of the key areas of exploration throughout my practice.

In terms of the neurochemistry, having a lot of spikes in dopamine lowers your baseline levels of dopamine which makes the simple pleasures feel less satisfying.

On a more subtle level, deep in my nervous system it feels like a switch that goes off deep in my being between being in a more contracted, reved up state of constantly seeking, grasping and controlling versus a more relaxed state of flow and allowance where I also find I tap into effortless action. Contemplations and investigations of anatta have really helped with that. For me dopaminergic grasping has been deeply linked to controlling tendencies.

I'm still very much working through this pattern myself but these are just some things I've noticed over the years.

[u/redpandamaster17 → u/acacia-rosa]

For the most part, I'm pretty good at hitting that state of flow once I get into the activity that I decide to do. But for example, when I'm doing nothing, and I want to decide whether to work, or procrastinate a bit and then do work (but only if I think I don't have much work to do), I will probably pick option 2, and I know that this is because in the planning phase, there is a gap in craving between the two options, because I have gotten a lot of dopamine from watching youtube in the past.

But once I choose the option I usually am pretty absorbed and content.

I don't even think I'm particularly attached to the decision I make: if for example my internet went out and I was forced to do work, I don't think I'd particularly care, I would just do work. I guess I'm just observing that when choosing between options, I will generally take the one that's been more historically enjoyable / dopamine producing, even if I'm not particularly attached to doing that specific thing.

[u/acacia-rosa → u/redpandamaster17]

This reminds me of one time that I was serving at a Goenka Vipassana centre between courses and the senior assistant teacher on site called the kitchen and asked if we had corn chips to go with the bean chilli.

There were a lot of raised eyebrows in the kitchen and people wondering if her calling about the chips implied that she was perpetuating the cycle of craving.

At the evening meeting before bed someone brought up the chips in a playful/curious way and the AT responded that chips are chips and she likes having chips with her chilli but that she didn't lose the balance of her mind because they were unavailable. She explained that we'll always have preferences for one thing or the other but it's how we relate to our preferences and whether we're generating craving towards them that matters.

The thing with dopaminergic behaviours is that they really push on the circuits that often lead to craving so how much of them one can engage with before it becomes a problem is highly individual.

If you don't experience any negative effects of your preferences then I don't see the issue. For example your food choices causing sluggishness, your screen time causing mental agitation or any other outcome you don't prefer.

As we progress on the path the more and more subtle "side effects" of our choices both positive and negative become clearer to us and with wisdom we slowly refine and let those things go, if the time arises where you're perfectly content practicing, working and attending to your daily tasks then that's beautiful but until that time I'm not sure it's necessary or helpful to push it.

[u/redpandamaster17 → u/acacia-rosa]

That makes sense. I don't directly see any downsides to some of my dopamine influenced behaviors, but there could definitely be some opportunity cost. I'll have to experiment and be mindful of the (potentially indirect) side effects of choosing behavior A vs behavior B.

[u/Alan_Archer]

A lot of misconceptions here.

Craving immediately leads to suffering. It's not optional. It's just how the mind works. There's this idea that dependent co-arising is something that happens in order, one step at a time, but that's a mistake. Dependent co-arising happens all at the same time. That's why it's called CO-arising: everything arises at once.

If there's craving, ipso facto, there's clinging.

And clinging doesn't LEAD to suffering, clinging IS the suffering we experience.

You're mistaking the rush of dopamine you get from these things as being cool and exciting and not-suffering. But the rush is suffering. You just can't see it yet because of the level of your practice.

The deeper you go, the more silent your mind becomes, the more subtle things bother you.

This is one of the paradoxes of the practice: you become more immune to gross forms of suffering, while at the same time becoming more sensitive to subtle forms of suffering.

And since suffering IS clinging (and vice-versa), you work on your clingings.

Also, I will say this again every time it comes up: don't waste your time with Culadasa.

[u/Guts_Philosopher → u/Alan_Archer]

"The deeper you go, the more silent your mind becomes, the more subtle things bother you"

Question on this: should it not be the opposite? The more silent your mind becomes, the less subtle things bother you. You become more aware of them, which removes the suffering by consequence as your awareness has increased.

Curious to see what you think.

[u/cmciccio → u/Guts_Philosopher]

I would say this is in regards to the fact that the more internal silence and expansive awareness there is, the more subtle craving can emerge in consciousness. As grosser movements settle down, smaller waves come into view.

[u/TetrisMcKenna → u/Guts_Philosopher]

Well, for example, progressing through the jhanas is typically done by the mind recognising that an aspect of the current jhana is too coarse - i.e. the piti/rapture of the first jhana is seen as subtle and pleasurable at first, then it's kind of irritating and distracting, so the mind finds a more subtle vantage point in the 2nd jhana, leading to more subtle sensations, and so on. But then even the most subtle jhana with the most subtle sensations is seen as dissatisfactory, and the mind takes nibbana as object where there are no objects, subtle or otherwise.

[u/redpandamaster17 → u/Alan_Archer]

"You're mistaking the rush of dopamine you get from these things as being cool and exciting and not-suffering. But the rush is suffering. You just can't see it yet because of the level of your practice."

I also experience dopamine after a good work out. When I meditate and experience meditative joy, I suspect there is also dopamine then. Would you consider these experiences suffering? If I perform a highly dopaminergic activity (which could theoretically be scientifically measured) but don't feel a strong rush of dopamine when doing them, does that make those activities ok? I suspect that the level of dopamine triggered by an activity and the feeling of a "rush" might not be perfectly correlated?

"The deeper you go, the more silent your mind becomes, the more subtle things bother you."

I think my mind has gotten pretty quiet - when I sit still between tasks, my awareness is mostly my bodily sensations, vision, and a slight ringing in my ears. I have observed that this decrease in mental activity has decreased suffering, or at least my current understanding of suffering.

I haven't really experienced what you mean about subtle things bothering me. I'm actively maintaining awareness when doing activities that used to bring suffering, but even then, I don't really notice myself getting bothered. Supposing that I don't observe suffering, but if I improved my practice to where I would observe suffering, what would be the point - wouldn't that be a downgrade?

[u/TetrisMcKenna → u/redpandamaster17]

> if I improved my practice to where I would observe suffering, what would be the point - wouldn't that be a downgrade?

It's a bit like someone with trauma who bottles up their emotions and refuses to feel them - at some point they spill over and turn into huge feelings that cause actions that we might regret.

> I haven't really experienced what you mean about subtle things bothering me

One thing I notice with the "dopamine" narrative is using it as a catch-all for a range of different sensations that can be individually distinguished if observed more subtly. I have ADHD, so I know a lot of people who like to use "dopamine" as a feeling, but I have never once observed dopamine directly, if that makes sense.

I've also been prescribed meds at a dose that was too high, so there was too much dopamine going around, and that was deeply unpleasant, so it's not like dopamine = positive vedana.

I think what you're basically asking is "now that I have some degree of awareness, how do I figure out what to do in the world?" - well, you have to act from your values, and maybe you have to figure out or realign your values after some sort of realisation or sustained practice.

The Buddha talked of tanha - craving - and chanda - desire or directed intention. Craving is a more specific form of desire and directly leads to suffering - it's acting from a sense of lack. Whereas chanda is not necessarily unwholesome - you can have wholesome desires, in fact we need those. So don't mistake craving for the source of all actions, you can still have goals and desire outcomes.

[u/redpandamaster17 → u/TetrisMcKenna]

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. The question about values is hard for me to answer, because I feel like I have let go of many of the values that I had prior to meditation.

Yeah dopamine could be experienced differently depending on context, like a compulsion, or making me choose option B over option A, or reinforcing a daily habit like working out or meditating.

I guess I haven't considered the opportunity cost of my actions - maybe if I don't spend 3 hours watching a podcast, I can develop some form of chanda - I'll have to spend some time thinking about how I want to architect my life.

[u/Fizkizzle → u/redpandamaster17]

Just wanted to commend you on a thoughtful and openminded response to feedback. Your final paragraph shows a lot of insight, right view, and right intention IMO.

[u/EnigmaticEmissary → u/Alan_Archer]

Are you able to detect these clingings as knots of tension in the body? I see this described in the beginners guide on the subreddit, but I haven’t been able to detect any tensions related to clinging myself thus far. I guess it may just be a matter of practise and improving awareness and sensitivity to subtle tensions in the body.

[u/Skylark7]

As others have pointed out, you're way into the chain of DO by the time you talk about dopamine (which doesn't even do what pop psych says it does). To me the more interesting question is who/what even makes the YouTube vs. work choice? Why YouTube? What chain of DO brought that thought into my mind in the first place when I woke up?

[u/redpandamaster17 → u/Skylark7]

Thanks, that is a good pointer. My interpretation of the "starting point" of the chain is when I become conscious of my contact with this choice I am making - maybe something like planning the day => should I do work vs procrastinate a bit and then work => i don't have much work today so i can afford to do the latter. But my conditioned experience with using Youtube to procrastinate has set up the dichotomy of work vs procrastination in the first place, and this conditioning has been reinforced through dopamine.

[u/Skylark7 → u/redpandamaster17]

As. I mentioned, you're falling prey to bad pop psych about dopamine. I don't know what the dopamine narrative means to your practice, but scientifically speaking its physiological and psychological role is quite different. That's neither here nor there though.

I do want to offer a different take on DO. Contact (phassa) appears when I first pay attention to my need to work today. If I let myself get to the point of a dualistic choice between work vs. another activity, I've already blown past craving and am into becoming (bhava). At the decision point I'm deep enough to have a YouTube watching self and a working self discussing my day's schedule in my head.

Once you know you need to work, the way to avoid chains of DO is to just do the thing. Otherwise feeling-craving-clinging follow each other as fast as a bolt of lightning. That's why Zen has the concept of spontaneity. Contact - intend - act. When I get up on a weekday and know I need to work, I can stop the mental activity right there. I'm done. Going down a rabbit hole of time estimation, whether or not to procrastinate, how to procrastinate, and whether it will cause me suffering is all DO.

I'm not suggesting you should alter your choices by the way. We all get into chains of DO, some more troublesome than others. You're already looking into the YouTube habit with the right attitude of inquiry.

As far as Discord, that's not gamification or dopamine. Whenever we interact with another human being, we're constantly scanning for social cues. IRL you've got a continuous flow of data coming in. Body language, eye contact, facial expression, timing, vocal tone and inflection, and of course the actual words. Over voice chat you still have timing, vocal tone and inflection, and words. Even the length of the pause between remarks in a conversation is filled with information. You also know when the conversation will end unless the person is extraordinarily rude and just walks away from an open mic. On Discord you have only words periodically appearing on a screen. The (...) that shows a reply is in progress is the only available conversational cue so it takes on an unnatural weight.

Your brain isn't evolved for empty pauses in a conversation. Our minds tend to deal with unexpected gaps in information by filling them in using context cues and inference. You can also see that tendency in the way people create emotional context in typed communication. It's often incorrect too, since words are such a small fraction of human communication. If you're paying attention you can see the mental process happening. There is information to be gleaned about how your mind works by watching what it selects to put into the gaps. What are you anticipating? Watching what your mind does mind during that (...) on Discord would probably be fun.