r/technology • u/ourlifeintoronto • Sep 10 '23

Transportation Lithium discovery in US volcano could be biggest deposit ever found

https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/lithium-discovery-in-us-volcano-could-be-biggest-deposit-ever-found/4018032.article
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876

u/VikKarabin Sep 10 '23

Cheap lithium sources are a fear. It's not cheap to mine in US

634

u/Vulpix73 Sep 10 '23

I could see the US government forking out for domestic production of something as strategically important as lithium, even if not a huge amount.

540

u/tonycomputerguy Sep 11 '23

Big oil vs Big electric

One hundred lobbiests enter, two hundred leave!

194

u/stromm Sep 11 '23

Big oil companies own something like 96% of green energy including the resources.

145

u/rabidbot Sep 11 '23

Big oil will only resist green energy until they can replace or surpass profits of oil with it. The moment that equation works out for them it will become the most important thing in the history of mankind for us to immediately switch to green energy.

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u/davetronred Sep 11 '23

Yep, a bunch of hardline climate denying companies will suddenly be all about reversing carbon emissions. You love to see it.

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u/deathschemist Sep 11 '23

i don't care what the motive is, we need to move away from oil.

it's been high 20s celcius in fucking september in the UK, this is NOT normal!

8

u/uzlonewolf Sep 11 '23

Well, it is now.

2

u/roxzorfox Sep 11 '23

The sun is going through its final stages in its cycle and there are more solar flares...it kind of is normal, we will probably have a very cold winter as well because the warmer summer...think back to the beast from the east.

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u/davetronred Sep 12 '23

I don't understand what Goosebumps books have to do with climate change

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u/[deleted] Sep 11 '23

At this point I'll take it.

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u/Efficient_Jaguar699 Sep 11 '23

Really hope this equation tips a little faster so we can get this show on the road sooner. It needed to happen like twenty years ago.

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u/broniesnstuff Sep 11 '23

The second a single cell on an Excel spreadsheet somewhere turns green, then the energy revolution will begin.

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u/Langsamkoenig Sep 11 '23

Problem is that will likely never happen. Since renewables are functionally infinite and everywhere you can't control the market as effectively. Which is why while they are trying to diversify, they'll also try to keep us on oil for as long as possible.

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u/jmlinden7 Sep 11 '23

Renewables require storage to be effective at a grid scale, and storage requires raw materials which are not infinite

1

u/Langsamkoenig Sep 12 '23

They are functionally infinite. Iron, sodium, aluminium, carbon, a few other trace elements. The most abundant elements on earth. It's not like you need platinum like for fuel cells. Also once the battery is dead, everything can be recycled. It isn't just gone like oil is.

Oil giants won't be able to corner the market like they did with oil. That's just a fact. Which is why they won't let go until we make them.

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u/AlexB_SSBM Sep 11 '23

Which is already happening. There's a reason solar and wind growth has been absolutely explosive, and it's because battery technology has evolved an insane amount such that renewables make more money than oil.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 11 '23

Sounds good, so we just continue destroying the planet until it’s convenient and sufficiently profitable for some random assholes?

You realize it’s actually profitable to do right now but they want it to be just as profitable, that’s never going to happen and it shouldn’t have to happen for us to be able to respond to this crisis that will kill billions in the near future

1

u/MetalGhost99 Sep 12 '23

Big oil wont go anywhere for hundreds of years. To many important things as well as crucial things are made from oil. Even if we quit using it as an energy source we still need it.

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u/n4zza_ Sep 11 '23

What do you mean? If BP owns the sun im going to write an essay

65

u/TheJDUBS2 Sep 11 '23

how does one harvest the sun? through solar panels. how are solar panels made, who makes them, and who gets the materials? Thats how

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u/regoapps Sep 11 '23 edited Sep 11 '23

You can actually produce energy from solar using only mirrors, lenses and a steam generator. Just angle the mirrors and lenses to focus the sunlight onto a thermal receiver, similar to a boiler tube. The receiver absorbs and converts sunlight into heat. The heat is then transported to a steam generator or engine where it is converted into electricity.

41

u/ComputingWaffle Sep 11 '23

Way off topic but I did not expect to see the creator of the 5-0 police scanner app while scrolling through Reddit. I’ve had the app downloaded for years and I instantly recognized your profile picture. Anyways, I appreciate the work you put into creating it.

Have a good one!

34

u/regoapps Sep 11 '23

Aww, you’re too kind. Thanks for using my app! You have a good one as well.

5

u/katarjin Sep 11 '23

This right here is why despite all the issues social media has I still love it. (Never heard of that app, I'll have to check it out.)

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u/thebornotaku Sep 11 '23

Like so: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivanpah_Solar_Power_Facility

Downside is sometimes the intense, focused sunlight cooks birds that fly through.

36

u/regoapps Sep 11 '23

Free electricity AND a free meal? Where do I sign up?

9

u/Gavroche_Lives Sep 11 '23

Yup birds die sometimes. Next.

2

u/kimbabs Sep 11 '23

Pretty insane how many birds that thing kills for not reaching its advertised capacity, even into 2020.

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u/CrimsonMutt Sep 11 '23

6000 a year is nothing compared to cats

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u/brianwski Sep 11 '23

focused sunlight cooks birds that fly through

I heard that they invented home microwave ovens after they noticed birds that fly in front of military radar were cooked in flight.

Now in full disclosure, I heard this from a drunk stranger in a bar, so it deserves to be checked out for certain.

1

u/jeffjefforson Sep 11 '23 edited Sep 11 '23

I think the first "microwave" was actually used to wake small rodents from cryosleep which is just as insane

Edit: I am wrong, guy below me right

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u/sadbr0cc0li Sep 11 '23

Thanks for the super interesting read!!

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u/uzlonewolf Sep 11 '23

Still fewer bird deaths than by outdoor house cat.

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u/[deleted] Sep 11 '23

New supply of rotisserie for supermarkets

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u/danielravennest Sep 11 '23

It is the Nevada desert. There aren't that many birds. The top killers of birds in the US are (1) domestic cats, (2) windows, (3) power lines (4) coal pollution. Wind turbines and solar farms are way down the list.

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u/TheJDUBS2 Sep 11 '23

yes and individuals and other companies could do that, fact of the matter is that the oil companies are actually the ones investing the most into green energy

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u/Consistent_Wave_2869 Sep 11 '23

They are likely investing in lobbying against it as well

1

u/InsufferableMollusk Sep 11 '23

Also, freshly baked birds on the ground below 🍗

-1

u/ProRustler Sep 11 '23

Hell yeah, let's really get this global warming started by making it day all the time!

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u/[deleted] Sep 11 '23

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u/texinxin Sep 11 '23

Concentrated solar is sweet tech! Check out molten salt thermal storage and ditch that silly old school steam generator for a whiz bang supercritical C02 generator and you are cranking out electricity only when you need it! It’s solar that can run 24/7 if it needed to!

1

u/spez_might_fuck_dogs Sep 11 '23

Cool, who's investing in the infrastructure to create the mirror field and giant suspended heat globe?

1

u/[deleted] Sep 11 '23

You can, it just way harder and more expensive.

1

u/Cyberlout Sep 11 '23

Nestle gonna figure out a way to make you pay for that boiler water!

1

u/Karatekan Sep 11 '23

Steam doesn’t transport well and has high maintenance costs, turbines are difficult to make/expensive and work best at larger scales, and higher ambient air temperatures dramatically reduce the efficiency of relatively low-temperature systems.

For heating water for residential use it’s ok, but even there the dramatic price drop in PV panels mean it’s usually better to directly produce electricity and run heat pumps.

3

u/SirBMsALot Sep 11 '23

I mean didn’t other suns technically make the materials needed to make the panels?

1

u/Eponymous_Doctrine Sep 12 '23

if it's heavier than Iron, it came from a supernova

1

u/pablogott Sep 11 '23

Isn’t it better if BP finds more profits from solar than oil? Either way it’s going to require a large company to organize the research, production, and distribution of energy.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 11 '23

Ok, but nobody is every going to make as much money on panels that last 40 years vs constantly supplying fuel, sooo who cares.

At the end of the day the green tech is more efficient and easier to maintain, not just cleaner. Blaming fossil fuel companies for consumer demand is weak. We all did it, live up to it and work on solution vs waste time pointing fingers.

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u/TheJDUBS2 Sep 11 '23

not sure if this is a wrong reply or not, I was just pointing out that big oil can make money on green energy

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u/rigored Sep 11 '23

That is one of the constants we can be fairly confident about. All anyone truly cares about is the $$.

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u/Love_Lettuce_8380 Sep 11 '23

I'm fine with that it means we know how to best incentivize them into doing what we need them to do.

1

u/JinFuu Sep 11 '23

I'm fine with that if we can convince some people that long term, continuous/stable flow of money is better than trying to wringe out as much as you can in the current quarter/financial year. : V

0

u/Love_Lettuce_8380 Sep 11 '23

you said it way better than me I 100% agree

1

u/[deleted] Sep 11 '23

As soon as energy storage is a little cheaper wind and solar will rather easily beat anything but natural gas and then given a bit more time it will beat natural gas and that will be that.

EVs are even easier because that's like 100 times less moving parts to deal with so as the batteries keep improving at a pretty rapid rate the EVs blows past fossil fuel vehicles in affordability.

It's hard to say there really is any significant need to incentivize a transition when we don't quite have the energy storage to make it work. Because solar and wind is already cheaper than any fossil fuel power generation the energy storage hurdle finally being overcome will be like a flood gate of adoption being opened.

Any taxes on fossil fuels DIRECTLY makes the transition to green energy more expensive, incentive or not. Really they already have tons of incentives IF the damn energy storage was just a bit better.

It's like generally people always switch to electric when they can because electric is always more convenient if it can do the job, not unlike electric yard tools. Once you don't have to deal with gas and oil lawnmowers, that's it, you'll never go back. Most corporations feel the same way and don't care what the oil and gas companies think, they will move to electric because it save THEM money in operation cost and maintenance.

At some point solar is like your setting up a panel that can produce gasoline in your backyard and if such a thing existed there's nothing the oil and gas companies could really do to stop it and all the naysayers would shut their mouth and start getting "free gas from the sun".

-4

u/rigored Sep 11 '23

Buy electric everything. There’s the incentive

0

u/Love_Lettuce_8380 Sep 11 '23

I want to saving up for my first EV here soon!

1

u/Joe_Jeep Sep 11 '23

All anybody who's rich cares about is money, and by extension, power.

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u/TimX24968B Sep 11 '23

so theyre actually just "big energy"

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u/CantReadGood_ Sep 11 '23 edited Sep 11 '23

Do you have any sources for this? I'm skeptical af about this claim. We get sources pointing to big oil shirking on their green energy investments and promises every year. Something close to half of all green energy produced on the planet is being produced in China, and not by oil companies....

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u/Helkafen1 Sep 11 '23

Yeah it's not true at all. All the major solar panels and battery and wind turbine producers are independent. The only significant exception is Ørsted, which transitioned from fossil fuels into wind power a few years ago.

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u/Helkafen1 Sep 11 '23

Doubtful. Source?

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u/rigored Sep 11 '23

I don’t know about the stats, but big oil is in that space now. Lithium extraction seems like a natural extension of the drilling, fracking, and refining process they’ve got down.

https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/exxon-mobil-expands-lithium-bet-with-tetra-technologies-deal-2023-06-28/

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u/magkruppe Sep 11 '23

big oil has always been in the mining sector. who else is gonna mine for minerals? I'm sure all the biggest mining corps also drill for oil/gas/coal

the question is if "big oil" is also the biggest players in solar/hydro/nuclear etc. I very much doubt it, especially when you consider how big china (and others like Spain?) are in the renewables sector

1

u/[deleted] Sep 11 '23

Not true, but is that a bad thing ?

0

u/rawbamatic Sep 11 '23

Big Oil does not own the sun, the wind, or the oceans. Anyone can join the fray, they just need money.

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u/MaizeWarrior Sep 11 '23

I'm skeptical of this, sounds too crazy, you got a source for that?

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u/Helkafen1 Sep 11 '23

It's not true at all. All the major solar panels and battery and wind turbine producers are independent. The only significant exception is Ørsted, which transitioned from fossil fuels into wind power a few years ago.

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u/MaizeWarrior Sep 11 '23

Yeah pretty much what I thought

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u/spaceS4tan Sep 11 '23

I'm going to assume this is only if you call an energy company that owns a natural gas plant an oil company because otherwise lol, no.

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u/anormalgeek Sep 11 '23

They're hedging their bets as they know it's an inevitable move. But they're also going to drag out the fossil fuel as LONG as possible to maximize profit.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 11 '23

Evil never dies, my friend. It exits the stage only to reappear in the next act with a new mask.

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u/1521 Sep 11 '23

I was going to say, meet the new boss, same as the old boss

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u/Disastrous-Bus-9834 Sep 11 '23

They're the same thing. Energy companies

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u/americanextreme Sep 11 '23

They are completely different entities of the same holding company with entirely different boards made up of the same people.

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u/El_Chairman_Dennis Sep 11 '23

The main supplier of lithium for the US is China. The US military will figure out a way to mine this, even if it involves starting the mine on the opposite side of the globe and digging all the way through the earth

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u/rshorning Sep 11 '23

There are plenty of other potential sources of Lithium for the USA. The only reason why China is a major supplier is simply because the People's Republic insists upon subsidizing their domestic mining operations and they sell the refined metals at prices and at sufficient quantities to undercut the prices from most other places.

As to if that makes sense in the long run to ordinary Chinese people who will need to deal with environmental damage to their country for decades and centuries to come including the toxic waste produced as a byproduct of the mining and refining processes is something to question, but hey...that isn't our problem right now and only future Chinese people will need to worry about that. And of course pollution from China doesn't leave its borders impacting anybody else in the world?

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u/DoorHingesKill Sep 11 '23

Damn, I don't wanna know what Australia looks like considering they're producing three times as much as China.

From prison Island to toxic wasteland, these people down there really are all out of luck.

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u/khoabear Sep 11 '23

It's not a problem for Australia because they have a huge desert between their mine and their big cities.

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u/quintus_horatius Sep 11 '23

I hear you saying that they've been towed outside of the environment

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u/[deleted] Sep 11 '23

Also see: Australian asbestos mines

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u/RHGrey Sep 11 '23

Most of Australia is already a toxic wasteland hell bent on killing you so eeeh

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u/onebadmouse Sep 11 '23

List of Countries/Regions by particulate matter (PM2.5) in µg/m³ (lower is better)

Australia scores 4.2, which places it in the top 10 countries in the world with the best air quality.

For comparison, the US scores 8.9, which means it has more than double the average number of particulates.

America air is twice as polluted as Australian air.

source: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_countries_by_air_pollution

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u/NimbleNibbler Sep 11 '23

Australia actually mines the most lithium of any country, but then it mostly goes through china anyways because they do most of the refining.

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u/Langsamkoenig Sep 11 '23

Yeah, nearly all lithium is mined in Australia and Chile. China just refined it. That could be done just as well in any other country. The west just was asleep at the wheel.

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u/Firewolf06 Sep 11 '23

to be fair we bought titanium from the ussr to build the a-12/sr-71 to spy on the ussr

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u/DoorHingesKill Sep 11 '23

The military? What does the US military have to do with mining a mineral needed to manufacture batteries lmao.

Are you confusing this with a resource you need for semiconductors?

Well either way the military is not equipped for large scale mining operations.

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u/rshorning Sep 11 '23

It is a "green tech resource". There are several elements that are held in strategic reserves and developed for the potential that if a war happens that sufficient resources can be found.

That started in WWI and has continued since.

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u/Langsamkoenig Sep 11 '23

That's because nearly 100% of lithium refining is in China. China doesn't mine much lithium at all. Most lithium is mined in Chile and Australia. Giving China all the world's refining capacity was a choice by the west, not born out of necessity.

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u/Hungry-Western9191 Sep 11 '23

China sells it cheaply so that's why the US buys from them. They are the worlds 3rd largest producer but their production is dwarfed by Australia and Chile which produce 5 times their output.

There is zero strategic risk because of this.

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u/TimX24968B Sep 11 '23

big oil just starts burning the oil for big electric

0

u/Sweetwill62 Sep 11 '23

Remember, lobbying is not a bad thing, people do bad things with neutral ideas all the time. Lobbying is simply speaking to an official to try and sway their vote on an issue. This covers everything from the awful huge PAC's to your ability to talk to your mayor. Lobbying is great, improperly regulated lobbying is what got us into this situation.

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u/ldphotography Sep 11 '23

Plot twist. Big oil is big electric!

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u/SilentSamurai Sep 11 '23

You'll likely see this.

US dropping a considerable dime to start domestic semiconductor production is probably one of the biggest public signs that the government is completely expecting a Pacific showdown in the next 20-30 years.

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u/fruitmask Sep 11 '23

US dropping a considerable dime

that's... not what "dropping the dime" means

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u/fatcat111 Sep 11 '23

You are being downvoted for some reason, but dropping a dime refers to snitching. Dropping a dime into a pay phone to contact the authorities. OP is right though, he just used the wrong idiom.

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u/ObiOneKenobae Sep 11 '23

It's been used the way he used it for decades.

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u/rshorning Sep 11 '23

It can also mean simply spending a whole lot of money. It can have multiple meanings at the same time, with even regional and sub-culture influence also having an impact on how a phrase like that is used.

It really isn't even the wrong idiom, just perhaps you might not be from the same part of the world that the poster is from. Or you might have a slightly different religious or ethnic background too.

The price for making a phone call on a pay phone has changed quite a bit over the years, and was only a dime for a specific period of time. That said, I do remember when first aid kits had a dime taped inside the box so you could call emergency services like police or a hospital...before 9-1-1 or other organized emergency service call centers were common.

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u/Kolby_Jack Sep 11 '23

What's a pay phone?

This joke brought to you by the year 2023. "2023! That show you loved in middle school is now old enough to drink!"

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u/krozarEQ Sep 11 '23

It's where your phone breaks so you go to a little booth thing and buy a prepaid cell phone with a $15 card.

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u/Beznia Sep 11 '23 edited Sep 11 '23

The phrase has definitely changed meanings. It's a pretty common expression to say "Man, he dropped a dime or two on that new boat."

"I'm about to drop a dime on my roof, not looking forward to that bill..."

3

u/Grabbsy2 Sep 11 '23

They didnt say "the" dime, though. Sounds like youre thinking of an older, specific saying, versus its modern evolution.

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u/SilentSamurai Sep 11 '23

Really depends where you're from.

In my neck of the woods it means dropping a lot of money.

-1

u/gangofminotaurs Sep 11 '23

a Pacific showdown in the next 20-30 years

In 30 years we will be too far down in the energy and climate crisis to have any form of serious showdown; it will not be affordable. If the US really really wants it (and it does) it will have to come sooner than that.

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u/SilentSamurai Sep 11 '23

Lol.

Energy isn't going to be an issue. Since renewables are now among the cheapest ways to produce electricity, the market has already begun shifting. Ford shut down it's internal combustion division a year or two ago.

Climate will get worse, but on 20-30 years we are not going to see any condition that really means it's game over for the planet.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 11 '23

I don't think you can really infer that. The worlds semi-conductors are dangerously consolidated for any major disaster and COVID just helped everybody remember how supply chains really work.

War is one of many issues with consolidating something with ever growing importance into just one region, it was going to happen eventually regardless of China's political direction and such.

China starting a war would screw up their exports much worse than it would screw up US exports. I don't think they'll ever really be in a position to do that in 20 years of getting their ass kicked by climate change and kind of idiotically bad government. Monolithic government doesn't tend to scale well with complexity due to all the consolidation. As their wages go up they are no longer a great labor deal and then their government has to become a real government that can guide them into a middle class circular economy.. with one of the biggest populations right in a climate change red zone.

I think China won't be doing much of anything but slowly crumbling until they turn into a real Democracy, because if they just try to deflate and stick with cheap labor they still just get replaced by cheaper labor and more and more automation. It's going to be flood/drought pandemic and famine city over there for the next couple decades probably.

Like plenty of this stuff is being moved to Vietnam, hardly well outside of a pacific war.

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u/krozarEQ Sep 11 '23

A Pacific sort of NATO could slowly emerge. The US is capitalizing on the hate Xi is building up around the South China Sea. If Xi can spur on enough to overcome some of the centuries-old feuds in the region, it could happen. But if not, it will still mean a lot more US bases in SE Asia in any case. China has seen this coming though, and it's a big reason why the CCP is keeping the Myanmar junta propped up. That's their bypass for the Straits of Malacca.

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u/[deleted] Sep 11 '23 edited Mar 03 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Hoooooooar Sep 11 '23

You can have 90% margins in the us or 99.7% margins with slave labor overseas. Please choose how you will deliver value to the shareholders.

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u/bigsquirrel Sep 11 '23 edited Sep 11 '23

Yup we don’t want dirty nasty mines in our backyard. Corporations nations don’t want to compete with overseas markets (they can, they would just make slightly less billions) so we will continue to export environmental disaster, misery and death so little Timmy can get a new (insert whatever batter powered gadget of the year) for Christmas. *man my spelling today

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u/Joe_Jeep Sep 11 '23

It's less about Timmy and more about billionaires trying to make more and more

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u/bigsquirrel Sep 11 '23 edited Sep 11 '23

Sure but Americans insane thirst for piles and piles of useless shit isn’t helping. I don’t live like a kink (ha Monk)* or anything but years living abroad makes me reflect on my own purchasing habits with embarrassment. So much pointless shit that only lines the pockets of billionaires and ultimately hurts people in other countries.

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u/MattcVI Sep 11 '23

Yeah but who cares about people who might as well not exist since I can't see them? I need another delivery so I can be excited about the package when it comes. Just one more and I swear I'm done cold turkey, please?

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u/headunplugged Sep 11 '23

"Coronations don’t want to compete with overseas markets". <= this is the root problem.

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u/bigsquirrel Sep 11 '23

Ha my spelling is so bad today. Gotta pay more attention to what autocorrect is throwing in there.

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u/headunplugged Sep 11 '23

All good, I turned mine completely off, more hastle then its worth, even though I'm terrible at spelling.

Still, companies refusing to compete is a huge problem though.

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u/[deleted] Sep 11 '23 edited Sep 11 '23

Nah, that means withholding all western tech from developing countries. Like when Ford made his first car, he immediate expanded to Canada. You have to make the factories in the regions you want to sell the stuff OR the other guy has to compete to keep you out.

The problem isn't global corporations aren't competing overseas, it's that overseas corporations aren't offering compelling enough options to keep global corporations out as they would otherwise have all the advantages being a domestic offering. Like Ford doesn't get outsold by Toyota because globalism is unfair, they get outsold because Toyota is making a better product, including outselling Ford in cars in the US market. And smaller nations aren't really going to all do better by developing their own domestic cars, that's a lot of redundancy and only the few top designs are really needed. The country hosting the factory gets to learn how to build globally market leading products, not trial and error their way through everything. It's a good deal in most cases for most countries because they get better markets to access, but technically the US could have kept a closed market after WW2 and dominated the world more, pushing up American's standard of living relative to the rest of the world, which is more or less what you're asking for and is more or less the greediest option we had.

It's that having every nation independently develop all tech would be slow, painful, redundant, somewhat evil AND make the people who invented the tech WAY less money.

Like.. how do we share tech with developing nations if they can't build the tech or pay US/EU wages? We just sit on our big hill and tell them to innovate faster!!!

Is that really the moral high ground?

1

u/[deleted] Sep 11 '23

It depends really, in some cases you really can't make the product in the US and sell it to some market with much less GDP per capita and you really do spread wealth and give out jobs with Globalism.

The biggest re-distribution of wealth in human history is when western nations adopted modern globalism... where ppl actually get paid.. not the other kind!

You can see it in the global GDP graphs where developing countries diverge from being locked to developed nations growth if you're actually interested.

1

u/bigsquirrel Sep 11 '23

GDP is an absolutely terrible measure for this sort of thing. A nation can get “richer” as its people get poorer and sicker.

We could go on for days but ultimately these effective monopolies and massive purchasing power in the hands of a few companies create environments that act as monopolies. They won’t support or make any moves that might increase cost or lower prices in those spaces. Until legislation internationally catches up none of this will change. Wealthy countries will export misery to poor countries so a handful of people can get wealthy there and thousands suffer. Sure there’s a lot more money in Cambodia than there used to be. Only for the top .1%. GDP is not a reflection of how people are living.

Like how opening a Wal Mart “helps” rural communities in America.

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u/SynthD Sep 11 '23

Lithium mining is pretty much guaranteed to create a Superfund site.

1

u/bigsquirrel Sep 11 '23

For sure, best the brown people live with it. 😅. That’s the messed up thing. We know it’s awful, we have regulations to at least mitigate some of the impact human and environmental. Corporate profits demand we export that misery somewhere else so they can buy another yacht.

1

u/phyrros Sep 11 '23

I just recently got into the position where i would could buy the tools i wanted instead of just those i could afford.

And if you drop, dunno, 800€ in a festtool tracksaw you certainly don't want to rebuy that thing in the next few years.

And you instantly start to be more careful with that thing because it is such a sizeable investment.

Biggest issue is imho those throw-away tools/gadgets. And companies at the high end scale which aim for the walled garden ecosystem

2

u/LoseAnotherMill Sep 11 '23

I, too, like making up situations and then getting mad at people for them.

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u/pillage Sep 11 '23

You...you think it is Republicans that are in the way of mining? Like, you actually think, if there was a new mine being constructed it would be a bunch of white dudes in New Balance shoes out there protesting its construction? No, please, lie to me, tell me that's what you think.

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u/fireky2 Sep 11 '23

They love mines but hate green energy. They'll call the mines woke

8

u/pillage Sep 11 '23

I can assure you there is nothing green about lithium mining.

3

u/notquitedeadyetman Sep 11 '23

Even the people I know who are skeptical about climate change, are completely open to alternative forms of energy. Outside of environmental concerns, it’s obvious that more efficient and more accessible energy will mean lower costs and better infrastructure. Nobody is actually against these things.

2

u/foozefookie Sep 11 '23

The state that is leading the way for green energy is Texas…

0

u/SharkFart86 Sep 11 '23

Just send all the Kentucky coal miners to that volcano mine. We’ll finally stop hearing them bitch about losing their jobs that they somehow think they need more than we need to not kill the climate.

1

u/pillage Sep 11 '23

Beautiful clean planet saving lithium strip mining.

2

u/SharkFart86 Sep 11 '23

Still better than mining coal and reintroduction all that carbon into the atmosphere that had been locked away for millions of years.

8

u/GoldenPresidio Sep 11 '23

only if supplies become an issue. lots of enviornmental issues that we quite frankly would rather have a poor country deal with

2

u/Farados55 Sep 11 '23

Yeah this. There’s such a push to bring back domestic production into on large scale for vital computing resources. Production isn’t cheap in the US but even TSMC is making a factory here. Having a big domestic lithium source is legit.

2

u/KaBob799 Sep 11 '23

Strategically I feel like it would make sense to have a small mining operation running that is ready to be quickly expanded if supply ever becomes an issue.

2

u/RuairiSpain Sep 11 '23

Watch Elon buy up the land and employ child workers to skirt labor laws. Musk the government subsidy queen

2

u/yearz Sep 11 '23

The US govt doesnt need to fork out money, it needs to reduce the tangle of red tape that makes building new mines uncompetitively expensive and time consuming

1

u/[deleted] Sep 11 '23

Negative. Even our rare earths are shipped to Asia for processing. It's a filthy filthy business. There's nothing green about it

1

u/Vulpix73 Sep 11 '23

I said lithium was strategically important, not green. Not all uses for batteries are in the name of saving the planet, with a fair few military uses like automated weapons and portable communications. That's the kind of stuff you don't want to suddenly lose your supply of if a large amount of your economy is built around the military.

30

u/justafang Sep 10 '23

But cant they extract them from spent oil wells? Or is that process still being figured out?

14

u/djfreshswag Sep 11 '23

That’s still a ways away from happening, but is progressing. Different brines contain different salts at different concentrations. Most high oil and gas producing basins don’t have good brines, they’ve got high radioactive salts.

From what I’ve heard there’s some O&G wells in Arkansas that the brine is more favorable for. Supposedly Exxon bought up the rights to a lot of land in that area. Currently working on a proposal for direct lithium extraction plants that the company is targeting Arkansas as a potential.

I’ve also got friends working on Thacker Pass (the mine mentioned in this article). Will be very interesting to see how competitive it is, I don’t think there’s any mines in operation using this technology with clays, everything is brine or spodumene.

-24

u/VikKarabin Sep 10 '23

Regardless, labor costs are high in US

38

u/justafang Sep 10 '23

Labor costs may be high. But its about what they can produce for the labor cost.

9

u/BrienTheBrown Sep 10 '23

It's not like you can outsource a volcano mine either.

12

u/justafang Sep 11 '23

Oh this is the US, we can outsource ANYTHING!!

0

u/Pholusactual Sep 11 '23

Expect a few key Republicans to stop saying illegal immigration is a threat, and then buy fourth yachts.

7

u/tcp36pita Sep 11 '23

Is that how it works? Or does it stay illegal, or even more illegal, while still happening, and the workers are paid less and treated worse than I’d they were documented? Asking for a friend

1

u/Austin4RMTexas Sep 11 '23

Wouldn't an abundant source of something lower the value of it, and thus make it less profitable to mine?

7

u/TMack23 Sep 11 '23

Demand is going up, like potentially 6x by end of decade. Granted that’s a lot of guesswork but there also may be strategic reasons investment in an extraction effort would see support.

1

u/Bakoro Sep 11 '23

There are some things where the demand is limited by the supply and price, prices going down isn't a terrible thing if the demand goes way up.

11

u/Legitimate_Tea_2451 Sep 10 '23

That's just an incentive to use fewer humans, just like how mechanization has killed coal mining as a lifestyle choice

-1

u/Extension_Assist_892 Sep 11 '23

I would say management costs are high. Labor aint getting paid shit.

5

u/VikKarabin Sep 11 '23

Well in south america or whatever labor is getting only 10% of that shit

1

u/cecilmeyer Sep 11 '23

Better to use children to mine than pay more right?

0

u/VikKarabin Sep 11 '23

It depends, are we doing the numbers or are we being humane? Humanity is bad business

7

u/babypho Sep 11 '23

Time to import those immigrants

6

u/[deleted] Sep 11 '23

The whole 20 of them or so? Mining (same as drilling) is at high end is extremely automated. People are not a particularly high overhead. The equipment costs way more. If this winds up being a strip mine, I doubt that this will be more than a couple dozen people.

2

u/ComposerOld5734 Sep 11 '23

Better than importing it from a geopolitical standpoint.

1

u/BDistheB Sep 14 '23 edited Sep 14 '23

Lithium is not scarce. For example, the deposit at Manono Congo is a monster & can be mined at zero cost due to tin credits. The only major cost is transport of 6% grade spodumene because Manono is in the middle of Africa far away from sea ports. But if an LCE Refinery can be built at Manono then the spodumene deposit becomes hyper economic because the transportation costs of LCE is trifling. Currently, the lithium supply problem is getting mines into production. In other words, Thacker Pass (which I assume to the subject of the article) has assessed production costs of $6,743/t, which is double the cost of salt lake & other major deposits. While LCE is currently $26,000/t, prior to Covid, it was selling for $8,000/t. Therefore, the Thacker Pass project looks marginal once new major mines come on line. In other words, all the USA has got going for it is its deadly War Machine & Fake Propaganda Media. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQUXuQ6Zd9w

2

u/turbo_dude Sep 11 '23

Define cheap. Having control over your entire supply vs begging it from an authoritarian state.

2

u/kanga_lover Sep 11 '23

We got your back mate, come to aus and dig up as much as you want.

2

u/Gorstag Sep 11 '23

Fair enough. But is also the US govt (military) doesn't want to be reliant on foreign countries for a rare"ish" resource. Especially one that currently doesn't have a good alternative.

1

u/babydakis Sep 11 '23

Nothing screams "cheap" like mining in a volcano.

1

u/ButWhatAboutisms Sep 11 '23 edited Sep 11 '23

Regulations? What? We can't just pour horrific chemicals into the ground and wash it all off into the local water supply and rivers?

Fair pay? Minimum wage???

You know what, im going to China and Africa to see if i can get a better deal.

1

u/VikKarabin Sep 11 '23

Well there is a lot of hungry business people and contractors in the area dreaming if Elon Musk coming up with some cool way to mine.

1

u/screch Sep 11 '23

hurry the fuck up boston dynamics

0

u/Local_Perspective349 Sep 11 '23

We'll coup who we want to.

0

u/Attack_Symmetra Sep 11 '23

Unless we start rolling back those pesky child labor laws.

-1

u/yakubscientist Sep 11 '23

Good. Mining is terrible for the environment. It poisons the water aquifers. Fuck mining. Space mining is the future.

1

u/alnarra_1 Sep 11 '23

It's only expensive if you use US Labor, what state is this volcano in? I'd be on the lookout for some human trafficking in that direction.

1

u/Glorious_Jo Sep 11 '23

Crazy to me that mining is such an important job yet ive never met a miner in my life

1

u/Informal-Seaman-5700 Sep 11 '23

On the scale this would be happening, it would be pretty damn relatively cheap.

1

u/Smitty8054 Sep 11 '23

Even if so we have it.

1

u/_trouble_every_day_ Sep 11 '23 edited Sep 11 '23

Just annex the volcano to china. Domestic globalism. Better yet, just build a prison next to it.

1

u/Fluffcake Sep 11 '23

You say this now, but next thing you know there is a new prison popping up next to this, and suddenly it is cheap to mine in the US again.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 11 '23

Eh the mine near me make a fuck ton on copper. Like a fuuuuuuk ton. Like a fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuk ton.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 11 '23

Cheap is a fear for economists. Lack of local resources is a military fear.

The US wants both. That's why the US developed the fracking industry and surged production. They want cheap oil that they control the supply of. Ideally, it's another country's resource being sold cheaply, but the best way to control the price is to directly control the resource itself.

1

u/Dovahkiinthesardine Sep 11 '23

just let the children at it for less than minimum wage and poor safety regulations

1

u/Minimalphilia Sep 11 '23

With the lithium deposit discovery in Norway, I have a certain feeling that cheap lithium is all there is.

1

u/VikKarabin Sep 11 '23

Again, it's free it in the dirt. Cost of lithium is cost of mining it.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 11 '23

How does shale gas and oil work then.. derp derp.

1

u/kuroyume_cl Sep 11 '23

Lithium mining is also extremely dirty and damaging to the environment. Part of the appeal of EVs for rich countries is it essentially allows for exporting their environmental cost to poor ones.

1

u/Dugen Sep 11 '23

It's not cheap to mine with properly paid workers, safety standards and somewhat mitigating environmental damage. It's worse to mine outside the US, but our crap trade rules force us to chose the worst path available, because it's the cheapest. IMO, border adjustments to compensate for shitty methods of production should be standard practice.

1

u/AsyncEntity Sep 11 '23

At such a high grade I’m guessing the cost/benefit ratio makes it worth it though.