r/todayilearned • u/RaccoonDoor • 1d ago
TIL Thailand declared war on the United States in 1942. However, the Thai ambassador to the United States refused to deliver the war declaration. As a result, the US simply ignored Thailand's declaration of war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thailand_in_World_War_II#Contrast_of_Thai_and_Japanese_policy2.3k
u/DerRaumdenker 1d ago
the ambassador: since it was a stupid ass decision I decided to ignore it
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u/AromaticStrike9 1d ago
“I recognize the council has made a decision. But given that it’s a stupid-ass decision, I’ve elected to ignore it.”
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u/300Savage 1d ago
It was actually a way to avoid being completely taken over by Japan. Japan had invaded so they could build the Thailand-Burma Railway - upon which the movie "The Bridge over the River Kwai" was based (in Kanchanaburi). Thailand didn't want to be at war with the allies, but it also didn't want to completely lose it's sovereignty. It's the only country in SE Asia that has kept it's sovereignty intact for the duration of its existence.
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u/Gemmabeta 1d ago edited 1d ago
Thailand was an Imperial Japanese puppet state in WWII. The Americans probably considered that declaration of war a bit redundant.
And then Thailand went ahead and invaded British Burma, British Malaya, Laos and Cambodia on behalf of the Axis, so it's not like anyone is unsure who is at war with whom here.
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u/Suspicious-Word-7589 1d ago
Like how Japan did not recognise the Polish declaration of war.
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u/DeCounter 1d ago edited 1d ago
Poland is a bit different. While it was generally accepted that Thailand was a puppet, they still existed as a legal entity. Germany however claimed that Poland had ceased to exist when it was split by the Soviets and nazis. So recognizing the declaration would have defacto recognized the legal entity of Poland. Japan could just ignore Poland obviously so they did and not anger the Nazis.
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u/Ironside_Grey 22h ago
Japan also had very good relations with Poland in the Interwar Period, (both were wary of the Soviets) and Japan didn't think a government based in London could refuse to declare war if the UK told them to, so they declined the declaration of war.
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u/iCameToLearnSomeCode 1d ago
Not only redundant but not also not representative of the actual feelings of the Thai people.
We probably decided that defeating Japan would solve the issue.
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u/MajesticBread9147 1d ago
Also I imagine Thailand's air force was not capable of being within striking distance of Hawaii
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u/thebigmanhastherock 1d ago
Yes that was years before they had their ace pilot Air Marshall Fufu!
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u/Special_Loan8725 1d ago
How are there no pictures.
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u/ahappypoop 1d ago
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u/Tovarish_Petrov 1d ago
There is even a video on wikileaks, but it will make the man sad and give you 30 years in a Thai jail.
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u/iCameToLearnSomeCode 1d ago edited 1d ago
That's significantly understating things.
They were flying less than 100 aircraft and didn't even have enough qualified pilots to put them all in the air at the same time when Japan invaded.
They were rarely flying outside their own borders.
Japan gave them some more modern planes but they still lacked the pilots to make any significant contribution to the war beyond protecting Japanese forces on Thai territory.
Thailand was neutral until it was invaded and they weren't motivated to help Japan win after they invaded beyond the fact that no one wanted to be executed for refusing an order.
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u/Gemmabeta 1d ago
not representative of the actual feelings of the Thai people.
Well, aside from the part where Thailand invaded literally every country surrounding them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thailand_in_World_War_II#Thai_Annexed_Territories
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u/KS-RawDog69 1d ago
We probably decided that defeating Japan would solve the issue.
Bet when they saw our grand finale that ambassador was like "I'm a genius."
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u/ActafianSeriactas 1d ago
Not really a puppet state since Japan didn’t have control over their internal affairs, though it was a pretty domineering alliance in the same was Germany was over Italy.
Thailand did convince the US they were occupied territory instead so that they wouldn’t get the full brunt of the repercussions that an independent belligerent state would.
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u/DreiImWeggla 1d ago
Asian Austria
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u/ActafianSeriactas 1d ago
I would say they were more like Italy in more ways than one.
Besides WWII, the Thai dictator at the time really liked Mussolini and his fascist policies and sought to emulate them in Thailand in many ways. He even hired Italian architects to design buildings and monuments like the Victory Monument shaped like a Roman obelisk.
The main difference was that the dictator survived and even went on to serve a longer second term with US support as Thailand’s longest serving Prime Minister.
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u/Wild_Marker 1d ago
The main difference was that the dictator survived and even went on to serve a longer second term with US support as Thailand’s longest serving Prime Minister.
"Mussolini? Never heard of 'im, I'm more like that Franco fella"
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u/ActafianSeriactas 1d ago
By that point the US were more concerned about the Communists so they happily ignored the fact that this was the guy who declared war on them. He seemed to have toned his fascism down a lot before he himself got ousted in a coup.
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u/brainhack3r 1d ago
It's funny because Thailand has sort of a internal fairy tale that they were never at war (in modern times) and was never colonized.
When I lived there I heard multiple Thais mention it.
They must be teaching it at schools?
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u/AzuleEyes 1d ago
BLASPHEMOUS
Thailand was a willing member of The Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere.
/s
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u/YakumoYamato 1d ago
Thailand in 1945 when they hear the news of US finally landed nearby...
...in Indonesia: 😲
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u/acur1231 1d ago
In 1945 the British had retaken Burma and were about to push on Bangkok overland.
The Thais were lucky the war ended when it did.
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u/WeDriftEternal 1d ago
The Thai military and govt were actually plotting to switch sides, and were coordinating with the allies to do so in early fall 1945. Thai politics are all over the place. But the war ended before this happened. The Brits were still pretty mad at Thailand after the war, as they were fighting them in Burma, which is one of the many reasons Thailand moved towards the US.
But yeah. It would have been a combined Thai, allied force fighting in Thailand against the Japanese who at that point were basically an occupation force.
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u/graphiccsp 1d ago edited 1d ago
Gotta say I find it downright quaint to see "The British/French are mad at what they did" when it comes to Southeast Asia. Considering what those 2 countries have done in that area.
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u/os_2342 17h ago
Dont leave the Dutch out of this!
They fought the Indonesians for years after the Japanese surrendered.
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u/graphiccsp 9h ago
That too. I knew the Dutch were also around that area but wasn't too clear about how extensive (or destructive) their presence was.
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u/mudkiptoucher93 1d ago edited 1d ago
Someone declared war on you? Just ignore them., they can't do war without your permission
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u/jesuspoopmonster 1d ago
I've had that happen in Civilization games. Some country declares war on me but they are on the other side of the world. Like 20 turns later I end up blowing up some boats that finally made it to my territory and we make a peace deal
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u/Vanislandguy 1d ago
December 7, 1941 would like to disagree with that. No declaration or permission
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u/thethirdllama 1d ago
It's like avoiding a process server. Can't be in a lawsuit if they can't get the papers in your hand!
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u/TheJoePilato 1d ago
My favorite bit of Thai history (as a non-professional enjoyer of odd history) is that in the mid-1600s, a new Thai king (Phra Narai) who was particularly open and curious invited every country he could contact to send diplomats. The French sent some who were impressed by the opulence of this king, then Thailand sent diplomats to France in return. With them, they brought two silver cannons. The French king at the time, Louis XIV, had heard of the opulence of the Thai court and wanted to outdo them, so he built the palace up like he was a god-king in order to receive them in style (it worked: they said they couldn't imagine a greater place on earth).
The wealth needed to maintain this new level of luxury could easily be tied to the revolution that came soon to France, during which the political prison of The Bastille was stormed by citizens. When trying to breach the walls, they had nothing but small arms so they started looking around until they found two silver cannons, still in great working order. They used these to fire on the prison and eventually the garrison inside surrendered (the commander of the garrison was dragged away in a storm of abuse until he eventually cried "enough! let me die!" and kicked someone nearby in the balls, causing the mob to finish him off).
Back in Thailand, the open policies of Narai were criticized by political opponents so when he died, his foreign advisers were killed or imprisoned, a new regime took over, and the newly built French embassy was burnt to the ground. So much for that fun little international friendship.
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u/jonitfcfan 1d ago
the commander of the garrison was dragged away in a storm of abuse until he eventually cried "enough! let me die!" and kicked someone nearby in the balls, causing the mob to finish him off
My favourite bit of the story
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u/ValorMorghulis 1d ago
My favorite bit of history is the King of Thailand offering to send war elephants to Abraham Lincoln; he declined.
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u/julius_cornelius 17h ago
As a French non-professional enjoyer of history I never heard of those cannons and had to dig some French sources to learn more about them. Thanks for bringing them up. I learnt a lot.
I do however want to point out to add some details in the story written here.
About the cause of the Revolution:
Louis XIV died in 1715, 74 years before the Revolution started. It is true that his spending habit (in particular waging war across Europe) left the finances of the kingdom in shambles. At that time France was in debt to the equivalent of a decade’s worth of fiscal income. After his death the Regent and then Louis XV worked hard to balance the finances. In particular Louis XV rather unsuccessfully tried to pass legislation that would expand taxation to every subject of the kingdom (back then nobles and clergy did not pay taxes). There was also a lot of pushback from the king’s cabinet to turn the country into a trading nation like (nowadays) Netherlands. The focus was thus put on agriculture and in particular growing grain while having a protectionist stance. By 1764 major efforts were made and by 1775 the tax revenue was greatly increase and debt reduced.
That context being set nowadays historian seem to agree that on the financial side the main reason of the Revolution are:
Overspending of the crown in particular in the Seven years war and supporting the American Revolution
Loss of tax revenue from lost colonies and the ability more to develop existing ones
Limited of tax revenue based on solely taxing the Third State (commoners)
Terrible weather condition that led to terrible crop yields prior to the Revolution and this inflation
(There are of course more specific ones liké devaluation of currency, lack of trade, etc)
The point here is to say: « Yes the Sun King did overspend but we can’t say that directly led to the Revolution »
About De Launay:
I was not able to find any primary sources about the « Enough! Let me Die! » part. From what I could find there is even discussion if the kick to Desnot’s groin even happened. But there is no doubt that he was lunched by the mob. If you have any trusted sources I would love to take a look.
About the cannons:
Reading about the cannons, several English sources seem to imply the cannons were IN the Bastille. As written here by you (u/thejoepilato) the cannon were actually used to try to conquer the prison. The cannons were originally kept as decorative pieces at the Garde Meuble Royal (Royal Furniture Storage) near what is today the Place de la Concorde. On the 13th of July 1789, after altercation with Royal troops, and a fear that mercenaries would be sent to secure Paris, the Parisian decided to try to secure weapons to defend themselves. They stormed the Garde Meuble and seized many weapons (often obsolete ones), including a bunch of cannons and transfered a bunch Place de Grève (where the city hall is).
They however couldn’t secure enough ammunition nor black powder and thus decided to seize it from the Bastille the next day. It seems that both cannons were separately brought to the scene and used with a few others. But from reports they were more for scare tactics than actual impactful uses as their placement was not made to his any strategic spots.
If you read French this source (a little old; dating from 1985) is pretty interesting and very detailed.
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u/TheJoePilato 8h ago
My source is Thai writer Ken Mathis Lohatepanont and I'm afraid that's the depth of the research I did, so I can't give you more than that. But if you two get together and talk this out, I'd love to listen.
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u/RedShirtCashion 1d ago
Thailand: “I declare war.”
America: “No.”
Thailand: “But I declared war.”
America: “So?”
Thailand: “That doesn’t make sense.”
America: “I don’t care.”
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u/mashtato 1d ago edited 1d ago
Why not?
I don't want to.
But I'm gonna battle you.
Too bad.
Wh... ???
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u/isthmusofkra 1d ago
Isn't that like... treason?
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u/ActafianSeriactas 1d ago
He did help organize the Free Thai Movement which was the Thai underground resistance, so kinda
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u/jesuspoopmonster 1d ago
A similar thing happened in WW2 with Poland and Japan. The Polish government in exile declared war on Japan as a symbolic gesture. Japan said they liked Poland and refused to accept it
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u/Reasonable_Air3580 1d ago
"they declared war? We'll bomb that whole country into..."
"Sir, the ladyboys"
"On second thought, we're just going to ignore they ever said that"
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u/Ok-Telephone-605 1d ago
The Allies did bomb Thailand. Bangkok was one of the first targets in Asia based on its location and relatively little defense.
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u/Nazamroth 1d ago
I'll never get over the fact that it is called Bangkok.
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u/666azalias 1d ago
It's not really. Thai people universally give it the nickname Grungtehp/Krungtehp which is short for it's ridiculously long formal name.
Only foreigners and tourists call it Bangkok.
The country has also been trying to get the name changed in international usage with limited success. They replaced some signs while I was living there.
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u/Effective_Dust_177 1d ago
The short form Krungthep means "City of Angels."
Edit: u/ARightDastard beat me to it.
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u/AkumaBengoshi 1d ago
Krung Thep Mahanakhon Amon Rattanakosin Mahinthara Yuthaya Mahadilok Phop Noppharat Ratchathani Burirom Udomratchaniwet Mahasathan Amon Piman Awatan Sathit Sakkathattiya Witsanukam Prasit
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u/ARightDastard 1d ago
Krung Thep Mahanakhon Amon Rattanakosin Mahinthara Yuthaya Mahadilok Phop Noppharat Ratchathani Burirom Udomratchaniwet Mahasathan Amon Piman Awatan Sathit Sakkathattiya Witsanukam Prasit
City of Angels? That ain't no stinkin' Los Angeles! /s
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u/velligoose 1d ago
Funny story. There’s a city in northeastern Thailand called Roi Et. The ‘l’ and ‘r’ sounds in Thai are somewhat interchangeable, and the ‘e’ vowel is pronounced like an English ‘a’, so Roi Et is commonly (and jokingly) referred to as L.A. (specifically referencing Los Angeles).
I tell Thai people that the full name of L.A. is Los Angeles, which in Spanish means ‘city of angels’, so it’s actually more appropriate to call Bangkok L.A. since the city name in Thai is Krungthep, literally the ‘city of angels’, than Roi Et, but I usually just get a blank stare in return (probably not as cool of a linguistic curiosity to others as it is to me).
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u/Ok-Telephone-605 1d ago
“Bang” is actually a fairly common place name in Thailand. There are Bangkok suburbs called Bang Wa, Bang Na, and Bang Sue to name a few. It’s a great city but, yeah, the internationally recognized name is a bit ironic given its reputation.
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u/acur1231 1d ago
Bangkok was bombed by the British and Americans.
Just because they weren't formally at war doesn't mean they weren't members of the Axis.
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u/cyriustalk 1d ago
You can't get mad at them really with their capital name.
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u/Reasonable_Air3580 1d ago
Confucius say, "unfortunate is man who runs into wall with erection, and bangs nose before he Bangkok"
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u/Professional-Box4153 1d ago
Thailand: "I'm breaking up with you."
US: "No."
It kinda has the same energy.
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u/The_Best_Yak_Ever 1d ago
"Yeah, I'm not telling them that. ...you uh, you have any other messages?"
~Ambassador
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u/xX609s-hartXx 1d ago
They also declared war on France, captured a part of their neighbouring colony and even got to keep it after the war!
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u/Sensei_bas 1d ago
But then Thailland just kinda forgot?
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u/Kettle_Whistle_ 1d ago
There was a lot of stuff going on…
Completely understandable.
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u/Sensei_bas 1d ago
Can’t expect people to remember everything right?
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u/Kettle_Whistle_ 1d ago
I mean, unless you keep a good diary, things in life drift from recollection.
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u/Old-Yogurtcloset-468 1d ago
The Thai ambassador saved Thailand from being attacked by the US. He did a good thing.
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u/Skrim 1d ago
Not quite. The Thai declaration of war came after allied bombing raids on Bangkok. It might have played into the lenient treatment after the war though, but there were multiple other reasons for that as well.
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u/thatdudewithknees 1d ago
Most of which that the Cold War was starting and Thailand conveniently was a perfect place to put an airbase
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u/Skrim 1d ago edited 1d ago
A bit early for that. While Britain did station an air wing at Don Mueang for a while during their mission to disarm the Japanese, most of those planes were gone by the next year. AFAIK the US didn't deploy any combat aircraft to Thailand until 1960 or 61, and that was a fairly covert affair at the time. The CIA did operate aircraft out of Thailand prior to that though.
I'm sure the US appreciated the lack of a delivered declaration of war and that Regent Pridi Banomyong refused to sign it. Carrying even more weight though was Pridi Banomyong co-operation with the allies through his clandestine Free Thai Movement during the war. By the war's end the majority of the government were members of that network and Pridi Banomyong declared the war declaration itself unconstitutional. Because of this Thailand didn't need to surrender and were treated more akin to Denmark in the aftermath.
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u/TigreWulph 1d ago
This is how our country/government should be handling Trump. Just nod and then ignore whatever he said. Sadly he's just a symptom of a greater problem.
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u/RadioTunnel 1d ago
Three years later the rest of Thailand be like "you know what, well done for not declaring war for us, good call"
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u/Thin-Rip-3686 1d ago
“You had one job, what happened?”
“Too Thai-erred”.
I’ll see myself out.
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u/Plank_With_A_Nail_In 1d ago
Occupied by Japan at that time....everyone forgets to mention that for some reason.
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u/ActafianSeriactas 1d ago
Mostly because it was a bit more complicated in that Thailand wasn’t a typical Japanese puppet-state and had bilateral relations with Japan the same way Finland and Germany did.
Basically everyone even at the time saw Thailand as the “Italy of Asia”.
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u/BanjoTCat 1d ago
"Wait, you're declaring what? Sorry, I'm going into a tunnel, you're breaking up. I'll call you back later. You can tell me all about it then."
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u/galaxnordist 1d ago
- USA sends aerial raid over Thailand, bombs Bangkok
- Thailand acknowledges there is a state of war between USA and Thailand
- USA : (crickets)
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u/mrblahblahblah 1d ago
So my wife is Thai and there's a huge gap in education
they don't teach WW2 or at least she didnt learn about it. I've been slowly trying to educate her
" these were the Nazis honey, your country was aligned with them"
" mai khap "
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u/In_a_silentway 1d ago
Yea, I am in Thailand now. They only teach Thai history in school so they never even learn about WWI and WWII(Except if they went to an international school).
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u/cakestabber 1d ago
It's been a couple of decades since I was in school (went to an int'l school in Bangkok), but I recall that the compulsory "Thai history" course we non-Thais had to take (which was separate from the general history/social studies course) was also highly sanitized - especially about the events at around that time. I recall we were taught that Thailand was "allied under duress" with Japan - basically, either ally with us, or we'll occupy you.
The truth, of course, is far more complicated, and it wasn't something we were formally taught. I've always been interested in history, so it was something I learned on my own time, reading my own books.
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u/I_Dont_Like_Rice 1d ago
We didn't even bother pulling an Indiana Jones and just bomb them and walk away, lol. Oof. I bet they were like, "Ok, then. See, the US is backing down, we win!"
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u/that_one_wierd_guy 1d ago
since the declaration was ignored, was it retracted? if not I'm assuming since it got ignored not peac treaty/accord was ever signed. so is thailand still technically at war with the u.s.?
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u/AGrandNewAdventure 1d ago
So, did they ever rescind the war declaration... or are we still technically at war with Thailand?
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u/WoogiemanSam 13h ago
Keep in mind that Japan didn’t pop-up out of no where in WW2. They spent over a decade conquesting southeast asia prior to the official start of the global war. Thailand wasn’t acting autonomously by this point.
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u/SkullDump 1d ago
They might have ignored it militarily but I’m pretty sure they would taken it seriously in areas such as issuing travel warnings to US citizens etc.
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u/2ByteTheDecker 1d ago
Yeah I'm pretty sure that US civilians were likely avoiding SE Asia during 1942....
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u/Token_Thai_person 1d ago
After the war, that Ambassador returned to Thailand to become prime minister.