r/torontocraftbeer • u/helikoopter • 2d ago
Continued Collabs with US Breweries
Is anyone bothered by the fact that Canadian (Ontario/Toronto) breweries continue to collaborate and include US breweries?
I received an email from Blood Brothers today, and within the email was an ad for the Spectapular Beer Fest. The beer fest is including 2 US breweries. While I don’t know what beers those breweries will bring, they may very well be collab beers, the idea of promoting US breweries right now feels off.
Bellwoods had a recent collab released, I see Counterpart at my local watering hole with collab beers. Just brewery after brewery that is promoting US breweries.
Can’t one of them take a stand? Can’t one of them say “if they’re in, we’re out”.
We see people making an increased effort to buy local, people supporting more local businesses with local products, and the breweries saying “yea, we don’t care about that…but please buy local”.
Just a rant, but it’s something I hope others can take a stand for. I hope people can start boycotting places that are promoting US breweries.
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u/soiboi64 2d ago
They most likely started work on these colabs months or even a year ago, and decided to continue with them despite this tarriff horseshit. Im willing to bet these will start getting rarer and rarer as time goes on.
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
I assume this as well.
But what obligation do they have to put “Collab w/ Mortalis” or whoever on the label?
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u/soiboi64 2d ago
Not really any legal obligations, but often they fly or drive to the other brewery, at great cost, and prep art and labels well in advance. It would be hurt feelings all around if they pulled the plug on the colab after it's brewed. Also it's worth noting that craftbeer in the us and Canada highly leans liberal, and they are as pissed as we are about the tariffs and everything going on.
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u/UsualWeight8110 2d ago
I would say that it’s less about promoting a US brewery and more about brewers working with other brewers they admire and wanting to showcase something different or learn some new techniques from each other.
The buy local argument here also doesn’t apply as the Canadian brewery would have brewed the beer using their ingredients and would be keeping all the money sold from that beer.
Bellwoods did a beer with The Veil. The veil makes great beer so as a beer fan I’m more excited to try the beer because ultimately I’m curious about what techniques Bellwoods applied from them. I also know none of my money is going to the states.
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
I think collab beers, especially with established breweries, is about promoting one another. I think you are underestimating the impacts as there are more people who bought that beer who have never heard of The Veil (or never drank their beer) who now have a positive opinion of them. So Bellwoods has introduced this brewery to hundreds (thousands?) of people in Ontario/Canada. This is promotional, if there aren’t any profits being shared.
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u/UsualWeight8110 2d ago
Sure I’ll give you that but good luck getting The Veil here. Which is my point. I guess I should have been more clear and said the American collabs are less about promoting a brewery and more about giving beer nerds the feeling that they are trying a veil beer when they would otherwise never be able to get their hands on one.
I totally respect the patriotism but at the end of the day there is no support going to these breweries south of the border. No Canadian funds are leaving the country. And if people decide that they aren’t blaming specific breweries down there for the policies of trump and buy the beer, then that’s more money going to a local Canadian business.
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
Is this a fact that there is no support going over the border? I’ve seen others comment that profits are shared with collabs.
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u/Admviolin 2d ago
There are very little profits in beer. Collabs are a way for breweries to hang out with each other. I doubt the Canadian side of the collab is sending a cheque to the American side when the cans are sold.
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
Maybe they did beforehand?
I honestly don’t know. I always saw it as a way of promoting one another. And again, I don’t think that is right during these times. But many people with it are. I’m sure they complained when the LCBO took Founders off the shelves.
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u/Admviolin 2d ago
I was a professional brewer for a long time. I've never known a collab to deal in profit sharing. If anything, sometimes each brewery releases their own version. Funny you mention Founders, the thing that has always bothered me about the beer community has been ignoring issues within the industry because they like the beer. Founders had huge internal problems with racism etc. and yet the fanboys turned a blind eye because of breakfast stout.
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
RE: Collabs
That is what I always thought. It’s why my original post was about promoting US breweries, which I disagree with right now.
RE: Founders
I deliberately picked them out of all the US beers we can get in Ontario for that very reason. IIRC Founders took a hit during that scandal and I’ve definitely seen people on this sub stick their nose up to them for that.
I feel a lot of the people that were outspoken about that issue also didn’t really care for Founders in the first place because they weren’t trendy or cool. They are the same people who are quick to attack Bench brewing for their political leaning. It’s sort of unsurprising to see those people not care on this topic.
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u/UsualWeight8110 2d ago
I own a brewery. The brewery that brews the beer owns the beer and keeps the revenue.
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u/RoyallyOakie 2d ago
If it's not MAGA brewery, then nope, I wouldn't want to punish a small business anywhere for what their government is doing. If one of the collaborating breweries has a political stance you don't agree with, refuse to buy, and call that one out. I'm not going to hate on a nation of people. Not yet anyway.
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
“Not yet anyway”
So at what point will you start to hate them?
Also, there is a difference between hate and not supporting. I’m simply choosing not to support American based companies (when possible).
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u/RoyallyOakie 2d ago
Your post reads more like an irrational witch hunt. Whatever my boundary is, it is NOT an American small business teaming up with a Canadian small business. If anything, it's a show of solidarity against a government that's punishing both peoples.
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
People here really don’t get this.
I assure you that the people who work for the Veil aren’t going to stand in front of their troops if they make plans to attack Canada.
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u/canadian_bacon_TO 2d ago
No. There’s 2 main points here. The first is that like another commenter said, these collabs didn’t just happen overnight. There’d be months and months of talk, planning, agreements, plus the brewing process before the beers were launched. A lager would barely have hit the FV when orange man was elected. The second is that these breweries are not responsible for the decisions of the government. If they support the current US administration, fuck em’, throw the beer out. If not, carry on and support hardworking people who have no control over what that moron and his administration are doing. Would I prefer to see collabs with other Canadian breweries rather than American ones? Absolutely, but I’m not going to boycott something that also benefits Canadians.
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
First. They could easily say “in collaboration” and not name the brewery.
Second, you’re right. No one is. And the local breweries that are still promoting US breweries also shouldn’t be upset if people decide to boycott them until they take a stand. But they can’t cry “but local” and promote US breweries (which is what collab beers do).
Finally, you’re only speaking of collabs. What about the beer festival? What if Blood Brothers said to the organizer “I’m not going to send our stuff if you include a US brewery”.
Lots of people are making sacrifices and showing patriotism towards our country which is under attack, what are the breweries doing?
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u/canadian_bacon_TO 2d ago
There’s contract and agreements in place. You can’t just agree to collab with someone, make the beer, and go “hey you know what, fuck your government and country, we’re taking your name off the beer”. You’d get sued into oblivion or at the very least still be responsible for the collaborators share of the profits.
Regarding the festivals and what not, it’s the same situation. These would start being planned a minimum of 6 months out. There are contracts in place, fees paid, etc. The organizer would need to find a way out of the contract, pay back the fees, and then scramble to find other breweries to replace them. It’s not feasible. For festivals down the line I’m sure you’ll see US breweries excluded.
It’s also a terrible look for the Canadian breweries. Reneging on their agreements would likely nuke any future relationship with those US breweries and impact their revenue longterm. When this shit eventually ends, our breweries are going to want to be part of US beerfests and continue to be able to partner with US breweries. Souring the relationship isn’t worth it longterm.
For what breweries are doing, I’m seeing many who have switched to Canadian and European suppliers for hops and grain. Certain hops are going to be extremely difficult to source outside the US though so who knows what will happen there. Nobody is brewing an IPA with hallertau or perle. Cans are another issue. Our access is extremely limited here and I’m not certain there’s any plant actually manufacturing cans, most are brought in by distributors from the US and then sold.
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u/baospodcast BAOS Podcast 2d ago
Nailed it. Thanks for being a voice of reason on this post. Kinda shocked at the lack of critical thinking here, so it’s nice to see some thoughtful comments from folks who actually understand how the world (and beer) works.
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u/canadian_bacon_TO 2d ago
I spent nearly 10 years working in CPG beverage production with some of that time in brewing. People don’t seem to grasp how reliant we are on the US for our base ingredients in beer. Pretty well all hops are coming from Yakima or BSG.
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u/baospodcast BAOS Podcast 2d ago
Yeah once all the hop contracts end, say goodbye to haze coz those hops are gonna be pricey af and not everything can be made with either Aus, NZ or local stuff. Both countries are reliant on each other. The US are screwed due to their reliance on Canadian malt. We’re screwed for our cans coz they’re mostly made there (some in EU I hear too). It’s like folks wanna burn all bridges coz of one guy who will be gone in less than 4 years anyway, it’s hilarious to see the reaching and “all or nothing” attitudes that help nobody. Exasperating.
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
Wow.
If you care more about the relationships you have with breweries from a country that is actively attacking you, then you have major problems.
By this logic, breweries and promoters will continue to promote American beers until Canada is the actual 51st state.
And this “when this shit ends” is garbage. Not one of us can predict when the finish line to this will be.
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u/canadian_bacon_TO 2d ago
You’re gonna need to stop drinking beer entirely then. Yakima and BSG own the hops market and guess where they’re from. Even Canadian distributors aren’t growing all their own hops - our climate and soil doesn’t allow for it. They purchase raw material from the US and process it here. That can you drink out of? Made in America but wrapped and sold in Canada. Time to put the beer down otherwise we’re gonna be the 51st state.
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
No. If you don’t see the difference with this, than that’s on you.
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u/rajhcraigslist 2d ago
Probably need to stop supporting the NHL because it has American teams.
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
Yes. And I have no interest in going to a Sabres game. The CHL gets all of my hockey money now.
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u/Aggravating_Sir8504 2d ago edited 2d ago
Well town just did a collab with dominion city all Canadian ingredients. So this isnt the case with them all.
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u/baospodcast BAOS Podcast 2d ago
Hey, Cee from BAOS Podcast here, the GET IT IN YA SpecTAPular is our event with Blood Brothers. We started planning the event and the collabs (every single beer at the festival is a collab - 40 plus a coffee bean collab - think of the work that goes into that) in September 2024. So yes, those collabs were in the works a long time ago, long before the election and tariffs. I was just in Florida for almost 2 months (also booked and paid for before this stuff) and the Americans on the ground are hurting as much as us, and were always very apologetic. The two US breweries are highly regarded and the team didn’t think it was necessary to cut them, as it was kind of already too late plus neither brewery seems to support the current administration or what’s happening. I get where you’re coming from, and I love all the Canadian pride, I think folks just need to realize that the breweries there didn’t ask for this nonsense either and are equally hurting, and as a foreigner myself I don’t see anything wrong with continuing those relationships. I think Ontario has the best beer scene out of anywhere but I also love American beer so I’ll continue to support great businesses everywhere as our podcast always has. Hope to see you folks at the event in May.
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
Sorry, I hate that sort of apologetic reasoning.
There are lots of rationale US citizens who recognize their inaction the last decade plus has led to the current political state. Saying “they didn’t vote for him” doesn’t mean they didn’t contribute in some way, shape, or form.
People are allowed their own opinions, but I hope more people stick their nose up to the breweries, promoters, etc who are still trying to positively promote American beer.
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u/FuckYeahGeology West Coast IPAs 2d ago
That logic can be used both ways.
Based on your comment history, you are a big Buffalo Sabres fan. How could you support a team based in a country that is actively harming us? Why not support Canadian teams like the Leafs or Senators? Shouldn't we stick our noses up to those teams, especially since the Sabres owner has donated to Trump in the past.
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u/RoyallyOakie 2d ago
Crickets so far on that one, huh?
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
Nah. Other things to take care of.
I can tell you that I no longer am part of the Sabres sub, and no longer follow the team on my sports apps. I used to have ESPN as my primary sports app, that’s gone, too.
And no. It’s not from the downvotes from a bunch of MAGA stans, it’s called a lunch break.
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u/baospodcast BAOS Podcast 2d ago
Haha I said the same thing just before (bar the Trump donation, don’t know that). Gold. The hypocrisy is deafening. Cheers legend!
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
You’re right. Being a fan of a hockey team for 40 years is the exact same as supporting a brewery that’s been around for a decade.
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u/Illandrial 2d ago
It sounds like you pick and choose when to support American companies. A bit odd to have this sort of take :/
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
I’ve stopped following the Sabres. Not sure what you’re talking about.
When there are alternatives, no problem.
When it’s to be cool, easy avoid.
It’s too bad the Ontario beer scene doesn’t have the same backbone. But don’t worry, they’ll be the first to cry when things go south (pun intended).
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
Honestly…I’ve started not caring about the Sabres more and more. The political issue has definitely heightened this. I used to go to several Sabres games a year. I’ve told people I bought tickets from that I won’t be buying their tickets next year. Those people (Canadians) have given up their tickets knowing it will be increasingly difficult to sell their tickets.
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u/baospodcast BAOS Podcast 2d ago
Guess we won’t see you at the event, then. Sorry to hear you feel this way. The actions of one person doesn’t mean an entire industry filled with hard working people have to suffer. I aggressively disagree with your rationale and I hope it’s not shared by many folks or this world is screwed.
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u/canadian_bacon_TO 2d ago
Logic is absent in this discussion. Your points are absolutely correct and valid. I’m doing plenty to avoid US products but nuance needs to be applied. If you ditched those US breweries, that relationship is over. I’m not getting mad about anyone still buying Bud and other InBev products because they’re brewed in London, ON by union brewers whose wages go back into our economy. While the parent company might suck, boycotting hurts Canadian workers.
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u/baospodcast BAOS Podcast 2d ago
Nuance is the key word here. People are so aggressively thinking short term and not about the relationships as you mentioned. I scoped OP’s account and he’s balls deep in the Buffalo Sabres sub - how dare he support American hockey when the Leafs are right here! 😂 People are insane and the lack of critical thinking is astounding.
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
I don’t want to waste my time arguing with a person like you, but I’m happy I won’t have to waste my time with any event or brewery that aligns with you.
Best of luck, I hope you don’t go begging for help the next time you’re being attacked.
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u/clivehuxley 2d ago
Have fun not drinking any beer from checks event notes literally every good brewery in Ontario.
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u/clivehuxley 2d ago
I think you could reframe your position on this. If it bothers you that two independent American breweries are going to have beers at the event, focus instead on the fact that there are also 38 Canadian ones. Canadian breweries that will be selling their beer and getting exposure to potential new customers. That’s money in the pockets of 38 Canadian businesses.
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u/baospodcast BAOS Podcast 2d ago
Bam there we go. People are always looking for something to shit on. All we tried to do was put together a celebration of craft beer and the fact we’ve been promoting it for a decade, and make unique beers with the best of the best. Someone always has to be negative. But yes so much $ is going into the pockets of Canadian breweries and employees, not to mention the DJ and food vendor are both from Toronto. It’s local af.
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
My trouble is that there are Canadians who are proudly promoting American companies.
Thank goodness our government isn’t so cowardly.
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u/carpalfun 2d ago
If people are allowed their own opinions, why don't you respect other people's opinions here? Your tone is very confrontational, not the best way to learn.
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
Yes. People are allowed their opinions, people can be racist, prejudice, sexist, all they want. But that doesn’t mean they won’t suffer for it. And they should.
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u/emceecee23 2d ago edited 2d ago
Do you take the same hard line stance with breweries using US ingredients? Most Canadian breweries do use American ingredients you know. Especially if you like IPA's. I own a brewery with a focus on using Ontario ingredients when possible and Canadian when not (then european after that). I have had this stance as a brewery long before any talk of tariffs or this 51st state nonsense. I have no issue with there being 2 American breweries at this fest. The collabs were planned before any tarrifs, and as far as I know neither brewery outwardly supports their governments position. Also it is a festival with 38 collabs with small Canadian companies. It is actually possibly to go, enjoy the great Canadian beer and completely ignore the two American breweries if you wish. No one is making a ton of money having their beer at this event. I promise breweries don't get a cut of your ticket you buy. That isn't what this about.
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
So I can see I’m talking with a lot of very, very young people who lack critical thinking skills.
There is a difference between buying an item I can’t get without, and buying an item that I can.
If the majority of breweries are using US ingredients, there is probably a reason. However, it’s worth noting that Leftfield has made claims that they get all of their ingredients from Canada, and that’s been enough for me to begin scooping up their IPAs with more regularity.
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u/emceecee23 2d ago
So your take away from my comments is I’m very young. Cool. Might be the first to accuse me of that. I believe you missed my whole point. Keep buying up those IPAs without asking where the hops come from. Would love to find the farm in Canada growing all this Citra and Simcoe.
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
“Cool”, you don’t see the difference?
Here, I will spell it out for you.
On one hand, there aren’t other options (the hops), or very limited options.
On the other hand, there is an entire globe of options.
The LCBO had no issue pulling millions of dollars off of the shelf, yet a few brewers and a lame promoter can’t kick a few breweries to the curb.
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u/FuckYeahGeology West Coast IPAs 2d ago
You say we lack critical thinking but fail to see the flaws in your argument despite literally everyone telling you.
You call out Counterpart and other craft breweries for "promoting" American beers through collabs. You commented on the Costco Canada subreddit about executive rebates, while Costco is an American corporation that promotes American business and products. It's easier for you to target small companies and shame them while living in cognitive dissonance of shopping at Costco and going to watering holes that also likely promote Budweiser and other Macro beers.
The reality is Canada and the US have a close relationship that is strained, but Canadian companies - breweries - included that had projects and contracts that were signed and underway during the Biden administration. With this festival, Cee has done an amazing job bringing breweries across Canada, as well as two from the states that BAOS collabed with previously. This was planned and everything was signed last year prior to the US being the way it is.
Get off your high horse and smell the hops.
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
Again, the critical thinking.
Yes, I shop at Costco, and yes Costco is an American company. However, locally, the majority of their profits stay in country. They have also vocally opposed certain Trump policies and not made a change. They pay their employees incredibly well including benefits, etc.
Next, what are the alternatives?
Canada’s biggest is Loblaws, a Canadian corporation that is constantly being criticized for price fixing. In addition to their consistent poor treatment of employees.
Empire group is next (locally), and I do spend a decent chunk of my groceries there.
Metro (Food Basics) is next, where the large remainder of my groceries are purchased from.
You’ll notice that my question on the sub was about executive rebates on beer and wine. Where again, the alternates are the LCBO or the Wine Rack.
And this is where the critical thinking comes to play.
Yes, Canada and US have had a close relationship. But to call it “strained” is the biggest understatement.
Yes, the festival and the collabs were created pre-Trump, but so too were hundreds of thousands of Canadians vacations that they cancelled, thousands of Canadians homes were bought that they sold. So normal humans adjust. Normal humans say “yea, this isn’t right.”
But unfortunately I’m in a hipster echo chamber here. And if you ever said anything wrong about their little circle, you have hell to pay.
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u/FuckYeahGeology West Coast IPAs 2d ago edited 1d ago
You posted in a relatively niche subreddit, what did you expect? The subreddit has brewers, podcasters, and breweries themselves with good insight. When they explained why Cee has the two US breweries and retorted, you complain about an echo chamber.
Maybe consider that you don't know the nuances of the industry and are looking at things strictly at face value. Critical thinking would consider the factors, which you haven't while showing a good sense of hypocrisy.
You're currently acting like Principal Skinner and trying to blame us for your ignorance. Come on, man.
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
Cee’s explanation was “it’s too late” and “not all Americans like Trump”. Those aren’t explanations, they are excuses.
It’s fine, I’ve learned a lot here. And I’m disappointed in the community. Best of luck.
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u/FuckYeahGeology West Coast IPAs 2d ago edited 1d ago
He said in other comments that he had contracts in place that were signed. Celestial Beerworks - despite being in Texas - is very progressive and supports female empowerment. It's easy to dump on people and small businesses at face value as you have. You're disappointed that no one agreed with you and sang your praises.
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
I’m disappointed that a group of Canadians doesn’t care that their country is being attacked.
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u/UsualWeight8110 2d ago
Dude are you kidding right now? “The majority of their profits stay in country.” You obviously don’t know how collabs work. Licensing in Ontario for breweries means whoever brews the beer owns the beer. In other words if I, a local Ontario brewery, brew a beer collaborating with anyone from anywhere in the world, I own the beer, I keep the revenue, I am responsible for selling the product, paying the excise tax, Ontario beer tax and HST collected on it.
You are defending a huge HUGE American corporation here that is basically “collaborating” with Canadian businesses to “keep the majority of the profits in country” but shitting on small Canadian businesses that keep all profits here. Fuck you man. You don’t know shit about shit.
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
Get in on the hate train while you can. Lots more room for edgy hipsters to vent from mom’s basement.
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u/whobetterthanpaul 2d ago
I think you're the only child here. You are acting as if the current US government means we should treat all Americans as enemy war combatants.
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
We literally should be at this point.
Show me the American breweries who have been speaking out against the US government about the 51st state comments.
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u/whobetterthanpaul 2d ago
Depends. Are the brewers in the Trump admin? If not, caring about this is silly. It's not their fault their country is a collapsing star.
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
You act like Trump and the Democratic Party weren’t elected by the popular vote. Or that Trump has a positive approval rating.
This is really disappointing.
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u/emceecee23 2d ago edited 2d ago
The Democratic party was not elected, Trump isn't a member of that party. Trump barely won the popular vote. That means that amongst voters, 49.2% of them disagreed with Trump. Plus factor in people that didnt vote, and only 22% of the population voted for him. Trump's approval rating is 43%. So most of America does not approve of what he is doing.
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
Sorry. Republicans. Whatever. It was a typ-o.
Trumps current approval rating is the lowest of his current term, at 49%.
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u/ashann72 2d ago
Do you work for a brewery? Do you know how far in advance collabs, events, marketing is not only planned but also has significant amounts of funds put into?!
Unless your willing to compensate the losses to each brewery in for an industry that’s already teetering on profiting or going bankrupt your really shouldn’t be able to disparage them for continuing with something that was in process months ago and could be the thing that if they pull out of puts them under.
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
So let’s say there was a collab with a brewery and a person who came out as a known offender? Would you have the same view?
Let’s say one of these breweries are full forced MAGA. How do you feel?
Do you think the Ontario government (or many of the governments world wide) went up and down the list of American companies and said “nah, they’re cool, they can sell”.
Sometimes you are guilty through association. What is taking place with the leadership down south didn’t happen over night. This has been boiling over for decades. And people on this sub are willing to brush it under the rug with “nah, they’re hardworking”.
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u/mMbagelrino 2d ago
Not everything in the US is related to Trump.. I would assume most breweries in the US are progressive / left leaning like they are here. If they are good people why should Canadian breweries stop collaborating with them?
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
Why?
I think people have forgotten the constant 51st state comments.
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u/mMbagelrino 2d ago
Did the breweries make these statements…?
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
Did the wineries that got pulled from the shelves at the LCBO make the statements?
No. But every single American has played a role in Trump getting elected. Whether they voted for him or not.
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u/theninjasquad 2d ago
Yeah I was going to buy some BB Mighty Eagle American style lager from the LCBO but opted not to.
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u/Sara_Tonin 2d ago
Saw they rebranded the newest batch of that as “mighty lager” with a big leaf on the cans.
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u/kirklandcartridge 2d ago
People like this who want to boycott a place just because it's American are as bad as the worst of the MAGA Trump fans.
People like this have already become tiresome. Fortunately, they have also been banned from Red Flag Deals forums because everyone else on there also got sick of their self-righteous eLbOwS uP posts everywhere.
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u/helikoopter 2d ago
People who whine about people wanting to boycott American products are the same people who said “nah, there’ll never be a nazi in the White House”.
Really, this is my first post like this. The last time I was vocally opposed to a brewery or their stance was when Innocente were breaking COVID policies. Not many people knew/remembered, but it was good to spread the word and watch their “hard working” brewery hit desperation.
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u/kirklandcartridge 2d ago
Love these people who must enjoy watching all of their comments on here down voted to oblivion.
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