r/unitedkingdom • u/pppppppppppppppppd • 1d ago
Sick notes to be overhauled in back-to-work drive, Liz Kendall reveals
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/sick-notes-overhauled-back-to-work-drive-liz-kendall-36235101.8k
u/DoItForTheTea 1d ago
fucking unhinged. if a doctor says you're too ill to work you're too ill to work, why is a private company going to be consulted instead? what do they know that doctors don't?
and if someone's fallen ill, making the process more difficult and stressful is not going to help them get back to work
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u/ashyjay 1d ago edited 1d ago
Someone's palms need to be greased; that's why a private company would be getting involved.
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u/Lopsided_Rush3935 1d ago
Friendly reminder that the company who the DWP have contracted to assess PIP claims and whom essentially have quotas they need to fulfill for turning peoples' claims down - Capita - is currently chaired by the same man who chaired Serco years ago when it was contracted to handle Test And Trace and for the procurement of PPE for the NHS.
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u/potpan0 Black Country 1d ago
Cleaning up Tory sleaze by... continuing to throw money at the main beneficiaries of Tory sleaze!
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u/TooHotOutsideAndIn Scotland 1d ago
That's because its not Tory sleaze, its just good old broad-spectrum British sleaze.
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u/OliLombi County of Bristol 1d ago
It's almost as if Labour are just red tories.
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u/DoItForTheTea 1d ago
i have REALLY hated this rhetoric because i felt like it was created to disengage voters BUT HOLY SHIT I am getting on the red tories bus now, because how is this ANY DIFFERENT to what rishi was saying a year ago?!
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u/Ok-Chest-7932 23h ago
The difference is that now it's being done by people who are pretending they're being self-sacrificing and making tough decisions, so you're not allowed to disagree.
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u/yui_tsukino 22h ago
You get to choose whether you want the same policies delivered with crocodile tears, gleeful smiles, or red faced frothing fury.
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u/ICWoods 22h ago
I have not voted for this Labour Party and will not. I have voted within my union to not fund this Labour Party.
The only party that put forward a manifesto the even looked like it would benefit the average working person was the Green Party.
Starmer is a tory with a red tie on and he always will be. He will continue to use genuine Labour voices to sell his tory policies.
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u/FizzbuzzAvabanana 23h ago
JC told you all this years ago but you let the press hound him out.
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u/Training-Trifle-2572 23h ago
Yeah, I didn't want to see it but it's pretty clear now. Even worse is that there's no viable alternative.
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u/marknotgeorge 1d ago
All of the big companies, like Serco, Capita and Purdy that operate by providing 'services' to the government are a bag of shite, if my encounters through my workplace are any judge.
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u/pringellover9553 1d ago
Capita are the worst. Terrible as a customer cause they want something for nothing, terrible to be a customer of them as well. They’re literally a shitty middle man.
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u/sbanks39 22h ago
My mate used to be quite high up at Capita, he said they don’t have in-house capability to do half the shit the government contracts them to do and just outsource it while skimming off the top. It’s just sleaze right there way through
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u/pringellover9553 21h ago
Genuinely don’t know how they get away with it, just got their fingers in everyone’s pie
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u/DocRogue2407 23h ago
Is this the same company that sent a letter to a guy with a history of 3 heart attacks & 2 bypasses, fit to return to the workforce, ON THE SAME DAY AS HIS FUNERAL?
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u/Particular-Zone7288 22h ago
Crapita have blood on their hands for some of the sht they did in regards to PIP and are an awful employer to work for, who in their right minds thinks 40 day pay periods are acceptable
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u/damhack 14h ago
Capita sell 15 year old technology to Government, outsource development to India and never have any spare capacity for fixing bugs or rolling out new development for their customers. They are a business management company masquerading as a technology services provider, delivering the bare minimum to hit KPIs, most of which they miss. Their share price is a lesson in how to suck value out of a business whilst ripping off customers. They should be nowhere near services for the general public.
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u/Fluffy514 1d ago edited 23h ago
GP here: There's no way I'd trust private companies to handle this. I had to answer a few PIP calls as a medical reference for some of our elderly patients and the contractors were extremely agressive and kept trying to trip me up so they didn't have to award payments to legitimately disabled patients.
If you're too sick to work you're getting a note, I'm not going to risk sending you back out needlessly so you can infect people and make them sick. Infection control is my personal priority and I'm not going to put the community or my colleagues at risk over a sick note. It's very rare for people to abuse sick notes in our clinics and a lot of patients break down and look incredibly unwell when they're in my office and aren't putting up a social facade.
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u/Hollywood-is-DOA 1d ago
They lie, twist words and write things that the person trying to claim pip never said. I recommend that anyone who has a pip appointment record it. It’s legal and certain laws say that you can.
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u/SammyFirebird79 Wales 23h ago
I really wish I had recorded my last assessment, because they definitely lied in the report.
And this government are making noises about making it harder to claim‽ SMH
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u/flusteredchic 22h ago
My assessor asked me what stops me from killing myself. Cue downward spiral that lasted for months because I had no good answer 🫤 dreading my re-assessment already and it's not due until November.
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u/Bad_UsernameJoke94 19h ago
They claimed I was incorrect and lying about my Dyslexia and Dyspraxia because...
I read comic books and sometimes play video games.
Ignoring that I struggle to retain information, have difficulty with gross skills, extremely poor handwriting, speech difficulties, poor balance and coordination, poor organisational skills, difficulty spelling...
And assessments and diagnoses in college from speech and language therapists.
They said I couldn't be struggling with anxiety as I handled the phone call. Despite a panic attack and having to hand the phone to someone else to speak for me whilst my sister helped me calm down.
That my "Autistic tendencies" were in fact just "quirks".
And I got scored zero on multiple things that shouldn't have been. I can't pick up pans of hot water incase I apill them. I can't pour from a kettle properly.
I struggle to cook food. I struggle to cut food. I rely on ready meals or pre-prepared food because of measuring and dealing with multiple raw ingredients.
I'm somewhat okay with an airfryer over a cooker because it bleeps and I can read the display rather than focusing on trying to use a dial or the hobs of an oven.
Usually if I'm in on my own all day, I'll mainly focus on cereal or Ritz crackers because I don't have multiple steps. Because I struggle pouring, I can put milk into a cup or buy the smaller bottles so there's less to spill.
I'm a bit better with drinks because I can buy cold drinks in cans or pouches, and I can put water into one of those big flasks that people take to work.
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u/TurnLooseTheKitties 23h ago
the contractors were extremely agressive and kept trying to trip me up
That's what they do to claimants in the interviews, so at least you have an idea of that beyond the average unaffected's coached belief
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u/wellwellwelly 1d ago
That sounds like a fucking nightmare. You're a professional who should be treating people instead of wasting your time trying to convince some dodgy sales person in a tiny office you're right, who's getting paid commission to make you look stupid.
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u/Historical_Owl_1635 1d ago edited 1d ago
I mean, the one time I needed a sick note I literally called the GP receptionist and had one later that day without ever speaking to a GP.
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u/wolvesdrinktea 1d ago
It’s hard enough getting an appointment to see a GP without adding in everyone who needs a sick note too.
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u/Ruu2D2 1d ago
I had bleeding with my first pregnancy. I was scene at hospital . They found reason and put me on light duty till bleeding stop
I need sick note for work . The GP did me one . Without seeing me . But he didn't need to as he allready scene my notes . He could just feel it in . Between other far more important stuff
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u/telephone_monkey_365 Stoke-On-Trent 1d ago
I was waiting over a year with a neurology referral, same symptoms the whole time but could only have 4 weeks because "it's neurological" but I only had to ring reception 8 times out of 10 and I was sorted. The majority of sick notes imo will be people like me who've been waiting 3+ years for diagnosis in the hospital system with symptoms preventing them from working. You can't beat a dead horse even if you change the notes you pin to it's bloating corpse 😂
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u/Wadarkhu 1d ago
It's not like they're the ultimate "get out of jail free card".
You can only get them for three months at a time, you need to continue going to the job centre every three months too, and you eventually need a full work capability assessment. If you get a false sick note claiming something ridiculous and you go into the job centre obviously not suffering, they'll know.
People act like you can just get a GP to sign you off indefinitely.
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u/BeagleMadness 1d ago
Sometimes the same private company was the one who declared the person unfit to work, too!
I worked with a woman who was medically retired on the recommendation of ATOS, who dealt with our company Occupational Health stuff then. She really didn't want to be medically retired, she wanted reasonable adjustments to be made and an alternative role found for her if that wasn't possible. She was devastated by the whole thing.
She then tried to claim disability benefits. She was deemed ineligible after an assessment done by ATOS!
So ATOS got paid twice, to say whatever their current client wished then to say. Nice work if you can get it!
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u/Marxist_In_Practice 22h ago
ATOS, or as those outside of government know them, A Tax On Stupidity (of cabinet ministers). Bunch of the most feckless and cruel bastards ever to grace the earth.
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u/Flaky-Jim United Kingdom 1d ago
Simple. A private company will be paid to say that you are fit for work, like Serco, Capita, Maximus and Ingeus do for PIP assessments.
The annoying thing is that the cost of this additional administration could be used to help people get better but, no, they'd rather piss away millions than actually address the underlying issue.
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u/LucidTopiary 23h ago
The reconsiderations and tribunals will just create more expense and slow down the system.
There is zero focus on ensuring companies are actually employing disabled people or creating accessible roles (part time, remote or both).
We are beating disabled people with the stick of poverty while not providing the carrot of accessible roles.
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u/Infiniteybusboy 21h ago
A private company will be paid to say that you are fit for work
Speedrunning to america tier workers rights.
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u/Easy-Equal 1d ago
"John Lewis boss Sir Charlie Mayfield will carry out the review."
Wonder what his medical Qualifications are
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u/Puzzleheaded-Tie-740 23h ago
He was previously in charge of the now-defunct UK Commission for Employment and Skills.
Among its achievements? A £350 million "upskilling" pilot programme that completely failed to have any impact on skills.
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u/PharahSupporter 1d ago
The problem is that the sick note system is actually crazy easy to abuse, I contacted my GP surgery via an eConsult a few months ago due to work related stress. I had to fill in a few text boxes and then a few days later just got a sick note, no questions asked for two weeks. Asked for an additional week at the end via the same process, same thing. Sick note, no questions asked. It is kinda crazy I didn’t even at least get to talk to one human being, as I had hoped?
So yeah needs an overhaul for sure.
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u/Any-Woodpecker4412 20h ago
GP here, you’re right but the majority of people don’t take this piss. I usually sign sick notes - I’m not the DWP if you tell me you’re too ill to work I’ll sign off.
Saying that though there have been a minority of patients who do take the piss:
Exhibit A - 19y.o with no medical history who wanted a sick note to cover spring break - I shit you not. I even tried asking: “Are you currently ill? Any medical conditions that I’m missing” nope, just wanted a note to extend his holiday.
Exhibit B - 20 something with moderate depression who just won’t engage with any help offered and will just request a sick note every month like clockwork for the last year.
But these are the minority, majority don’t abuse the system. I fear with a private company all the “legitimate” notes will be rejected.
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u/PharahSupporter 20h ago
The issue is, you can see the obvious piss takers as they’re shit at it. But what stops someone submitting a sob story via an eConsult and getting a sick note? Nothing really, you aren’t going to check (how can you even?), it may as well be self certification in its current state.
I don’t know how to fix it but I do know a growing number of taxpayers like me are utterly fed up of it.
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u/Any-Woodpecker4412 20h ago edited 20h ago
You’re right, you don’t - nothing stopping a patient from writing anything. I try to take it at face value and assume they’re being truthful.
You’ll have two camps of GPs :
Those who loathe sick notes and they do make a good point - GPs are not trained in occupational medicine and it should be by an occupational physician in the workplace.
Those who believe the common man/woman is decent and won’t try game the system. There have been times where some time off work is genuinely needed even if they don’t suggest it to me (New cancer diagnosis, carer stress, post op recovery) and it really helps in the long run for those cases. I worry a private company will just add another barrier to these people.
I don’t think private companies are the way to go. In my personal opinion short term sick notes can be done by GPs but anything longer term should go through the workplace’s occupational health department.
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u/VloekenenVentileren 23h ago
So you lied in order to get the extra week? How is any system suppose to handle that? Hook you up to a lie detector?
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u/PharahSupporter 23h ago
I did not lie, I was genuinely stressed, the issue just was how easy it was. I could’ve so easily lied, didn’t appreciate how trivial the system truly was to abuse until I went through it. Reddit makes it out like it is virtually impossible, yet I did not encounter this.
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u/LucidTopiary 23h ago
So you needed a thing. Used it legitimately but you don't want others to have the same access because they're probably liars, but you're not?
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u/PharahSupporter 23h ago
No, I used the system and am giving specific commentary on the issues I see with it and how sections of it are prone to abuse due to few safeguards. Interesting attempt at twisting though, do you work in politics?
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u/Calabitale 23h ago edited 23h ago
What's the fricking problem though? If people need to go off sick why can't they? What does it even matter if they are lying, or why exactly are they lying? Its not like they get paid massive amounts to be off sick.
What is this delusion that there are millions of people just lying and cheating all the time, think about it. According to them we somehow have the laziest most evil corrupt population in the world, and yet the least generous benefits system in most of Europe.
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u/PharahSupporter 22h ago
Because according to government figures there are literally millions of working age adults who aren’t working or seeking work. Wasn’t it reported something like 25% of younger people had never had a job? It is madness and unsustainable. Why work when you can just get PIP from claiming mental health.
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u/appletinicyclone 1d ago
The leadership is utterly deranged lip quivering 0.1% pandering cheapskates.
They know punching down on the poor disabled and sick is a winner with those repressed upper mids and boomers that don't understand why their kids and grandkids are estranged from them
Simply declare anyone under 22 can't have support for a mental health problem
Simply make it hard for people to take time off work
They may as well announce it's part of their broader right to die campaign to get down welfare figures
Because it's going to drive up suicides and they know it
We wanted anti Tory, Kier. We didn't want a lumon type strategy of how to get people working
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u/Hollywood-is-DOA 1d ago
It’s about getting private companies to turn give out sick notes. People argue with me but the Uk government is about spending money on war and not on the out of work or even disabled.
I don’t trust any politician.
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u/mackam1 Nottinghamshire 1d ago
Doctors have zero incentive to actually decide if you can work. They haven't got the time or the energy to have the argument so they just sign everyone off that asks. There's no reprocussion to them doing this
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u/TurnLooseTheKitties 23h ago
Um no, because believe this or not Doctors do have some sense of personal responsibility.
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u/colin_staples 23h ago
fucking unhinged. if a doctor says you’re too ill to work you’re too ill to work, why is a private company going to be consulted instead?
Money is why.
See private health insurance in America. 7 doctors will say something is medically necessary but the insurer will still debate whether it is reeeaaaalllly necessary, and then deny paying for the treatment.
what do they know that doctors don’t?
Fuck all. Except that they get a fee for every ‘n’ sick notes they deny, and a bonus for when they exceed a target.
Are they going to carefully study each sick note in its own merit, only rejecting those where the doctor has made a clear and obvious error?
Or are they going to randomly reject x% so that they hit/exceed their targets with the minimum expense.
Take a guess.
And these private companies want paying. You can guarantee their costs (and the costs of appeal) will exceed any money saved.
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u/Appropriate_Word_649 1d ago
I knew somebody who was on sick pay for years. She was friends with somebody in HR and when she needed to she came back with a fresh doctors note to sign her back off for depression and anxiety. She knew exactly how to play the system, I have no idea who her doctor was but because she was technically employed, we couldn't have a replacement for her so we absorbed the work.
There are people who know how to cheat the system and they are the ones who should be scrutinised. Instead they roll in sweeping reform so it's "fair for everyone".
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u/LucidTopiary 23h ago edited 20h ago
We would rather the 99% suffer and catch that one 'cheater' than accept that there is a small proportion of desperate weird people who take advantage of things not meant for them and that letting them ruin it for the majority, punishes us all.
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u/GentlemanBeggar54 20h ago
Whatever you do, there will always be some people gaming the system. The Tories added loads of measures to stop the benefits cheats and it still happens. As you said, the main thing it achieved was making it difficult for legitimate claimants to get the help they need.
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u/luckystar2591 22h ago
What company did she work for that had years worth of sick pay? Most public sectors (which have really good sick pay schemes) will max you out after 6 months full pay and 6 months half pay. You know it's not infinite right? Even with a sick note
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u/CaterpillarFalse3592 1d ago
if a doctor says you're too ill to work you're too ill to work, why is a private company going to be consulted instead? what do they know that doctors don't?
You know how your GP only has a few minutes of time per appointment? That's way too quick to make life changing decisions about leaving the workforce.
GPs are not neutral arbiters, not do they have a duty to be. GPs are well within their rights to sign someone off work just to see if it might help - signing someone off is not necessarily a determination that the person is unable to work.
None of which is to say that the private company is going to do better. But just letting GPs manage it isn't working.
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u/DoItForTheTea 1d ago
then train/retain more doctors, invest in the public health so the appointments are meaningful and people are less ill. yeah i know it's easier said than done, but how is it not even worth attempting. Members of my family have at various times been too ill to work, and the doctors being sympathetic and keen to help has been a weight off the shoulders significant enough that it contributed to enabling them to get well enough to go to work.
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u/TurnLooseTheKitties 23h ago
One can have more than a few minutes, I personally have had half an hour before - depends upon severity of condition suffered of course
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u/Mardyarsed 1d ago
Because a GP takes an oath to do no harm. Conflict of interest.
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u/1n4ppr0pr14t3 1d ago
No they don’t.
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u/Fluffy514 1d ago edited 1d ago
Some medical schools in the UK still have Doctors take the hippocratic oath. It's not universal though, and a lot of modern institutions take a very similar less historical allegiance, in which they promise to uphold medicine and wellbeing according to ethics and guidelines commonly understood at the time. It's quite outdated though.
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u/SoggyWotsits Cornwall 22h ago
I’d like to hear from the doctor who posted the other day. He/she said that it’s easier just to give the sick note than get abuse from an angry patient.
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u/barcap 1d ago
fucking unhinged. if a doctor says you're too ill to work you're too ill to work, why is a private company going to be consulted instead? what do they know that doctors don't?
and if someone's fallen ill, making the process more difficult and stressful is not going to help them get back to work
Second opinion and also vetted doctors?
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u/Many-War5685 1d ago
Absolute Ghouls ... Go after the ultra wealthy for once not the sick and disabled
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u/martymcflown 1d ago
Why would they go after themselves? People need to stop thinking anyone in Government has a regular persons interest at heart.
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u/Mrbrownlove 1d ago
There needs to be a viable left option in the next election.
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u/aaaaaaaa1273 1d ago
Yes, please! I feel like we’re slipping into a reform government and I hate it
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u/ResponsibilityRare10 1d ago
They only become viable if people vote for them though
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u/Historical_Owl_1635 1d ago
Which the majority probably won’t, so they’re forced to become more centrist to appeal to the bulk to the voters and become viable.
It’s a Catch-22
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u/odewar37 22h ago
Be nice if the "centrists" ever actually leaned to the slight left of centre, they're always happy to swing full on Tory though.
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u/Mrbrownlove 1d ago
I think a splinter party made up of disenchanted Labour leftists and the more viable greens led by Caroline Lucas would get the attention of many.
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u/Schnauz6 1d ago
Have a look at the Green party. Their policies were pretty socialist when i looked into them.
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u/_____guts_____ 1d ago edited 1d ago
They want to dismantle our nuclear weapons when Russia is looking to rebuild the soviet union. Especially when now America is looking cut support to Europe...
Yeah, I think we are okay.
Also, they don't even support nuclear energy I believe??? In 2025? As the party that promotes the use of 'clean' energy. We aren't going to get cheapish energy through just wind turbines is all ill say.
Its a shame the left has grown fat with people pleasers and not rationalists. If that wasn't the case, we wouldn't have to settle for a battle between centrist, right of centre, and far right parties.
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u/Intruder313 Lancashire 1d ago
I liked them except for their stance on nuclear weapons which we need to deter the nutjobs and nuclear power which is needed as a baseline power when wind/solar are lower
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u/Hats4Cats 1d ago
We honestly missed a tech tree step with nuclear power, all because The Simpsons made it a bogeyman. Nuclear’s so bloody brilliant we should be swimming in dirt-cheap energy by now. Odd, isn’t it, that we’ve ended up with the priciest option instead?
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u/JayR_97 Greater Manchester 22h ago
I think disasters like Chernobyl and Three Mile Island are probably more to blame for nuclear powers image problem. The issue with nuclear, is when it goes wrong, it goes really wrong
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u/shoogliestpeg Scotland 1d ago edited 1d ago
I liked them except for their stance on nuclear weapons
Every UK redditor brings this and nuclear power up as an excuse for why they won't vote Green.
Your other options are all worse than the Greens.
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u/theatheistfreak 1d ago
Also, to be 100% honest, I don’t see how having nukes protects us when half the rest of the world will still have their nukes. It’s not like Russia is gonna nuke the UK and France is gonna sit back and go “Hm, that’s inconvenient but best to move on”. The second the first nuke is launched it’s over for everyone.
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u/ings0c 23h ago edited 23h ago
There are no treaties that would ensure a nuclear strike by another country in response to a nuclear attack on the UK. Our nuclear deterrent is having nukes of our own.
Even if there was, defence agreements are not immortal, and having a backup plan makes a lot of sense.
Having our own nuclear weapons also makes a conventional attack less likely - see Ukraine.
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u/Marxist_In_Practice 22h ago
If France, just over 20 miles away, sees us get nuked by Russia do you really think they're going to trust that Russia won't just fire another one off at France too?
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u/Overton_Glazier 1d ago
And it's usually the redditors that whine about people having "purity tests"
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u/pink__frog 1d ago
I reckon, if the Lib Dems had a tiny bit of intelligence and shifted their economic policies to the left; they would gain a load of labour’s voters.
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u/Ok-Honeydew-9293 21h ago
Isn’t the whole Lib Dem shtick just being economically Tory but socially progressive. Works well in the more affluent Southern seats where people like to keep their money but, for the most part, aren’t big fans of racism/bigotry. I feel that they’d likely lose a chunk of their support if they moved more left wing economically :/
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u/appletinicyclone 23h ago
The viable left option is the left growing some electoral balls following some kind of workable wealth tax for infrastructure option and literally saying "Kier if you don't have a representative policy of standing up to the ultra rich and present a positive vision of that to the electorate to improve living standards and inequality we will let reform win and utterly wreck the country with their sell out to the US and anti immigrant slop fashpolitics and you will be in a electoral wasteland once more"
But people are scared because we hate reform we hate the Tories and the idea of making a vote a single issue vote is scary to people.
But that is how you have to be to win
Present a vision, present a villain and have at it
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u/shoogliestpeg Scotland 1d ago
Red Tories. Thatcherism, even.
The politics of cruelty.
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u/PharahSupporter 1d ago
The sick note system is insanely easy to abuse, it needs reform desperately.
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u/ghosthud1 1d ago
Yeah, you can literally just ask for one, told my GP last year and he gave me 28 days on the spot.
Hardly any questions asked.
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u/CodeFun1735 23h ago
Is it just me or I genuinely don’t see anything wrong with this? Take as much time off as you need or want, God knows your boss won’t even take 28 seconds extra to consider firing you.
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u/Juapp Liverpool 23h ago
Because people taking the piss erodes workers benefits? My company pays 3 months full pay, 3 months half pay, it’s a big surprise how many people come back in on the first day they’re due to go on half pay…
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u/machinehead332 23h ago
My company pays the statutory minimum which is like £116 a week. I work in a very physical job and had to take time off recently due to a back problem, I couldn’t afford to be off longer than a week and my employer has offered absolutely no support so it’s been quite a difficult few months.
Thankfully I’m changing jobs soon.
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u/CodeFun1735 23h ago
You’re not going to a GP and walking out with a note that says you need to be off for 3 months. Nor 28 days, even. The most GPs will do is 7 days without an evaluation.
The only thing that erodes workers’ benefits are the employers who tether them in front of employees like they’re a mercy and not a right.
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u/Mail-Malone 1d ago
Nice to see it being called a “sick note” again, which is what it is, rather than “fit note”.
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u/Rough-Sprinkles2343 1d ago
It should and is called a fit note. Because not everyone on a fit note is fit for full duties but some are fit for modified duties
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u/Mail-Malone 1d ago
If that is the case then you need a note saying you are able to do xyz or a sick note.
But that’s not how it works, a fit note is a sick note saying you aren’t able to work.
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u/Rough-Sprinkles2343 1d ago
On the fit note there’s a large space saying what a patient can and can’t be doing. A GP generally can’t do this but most of the time they don’t because 1) they’re not specialists and don’t know the job well 2) they don’t have access to a job description 3) they don’t know what’s reasonably practicable 4) they don’t have time to talk about the patients job
A fit note should be telling the employer the fitness status of the patient (fit, fit with adjustments, unfit) and ideally how long it’ll last for.
The reason why it’s been renamed to a fit note can be found online. If you search Carol black review you’ll see why
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u/MrBagnall 1d ago
"pointing to evidence that the longer a person is signed off work for, the less likely they are to return to employment."
Well yes, that's just indicative of someone having the kind of illness one does not recover from in any meaningful way. The people that weren't off sick for very long probably got better you (the following text was removed due to it being a personal attack on someone's intelligence, integrity or otherwise. Please simply imagine what was said instead. Can't be punching down on these poor checks notes politicians that decide the entire fate of the country)
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u/8ung_8ung 23h ago
That is the part that jumped out at me too, absolutely pathetic reasoning skills. It's almost like there is a common cause. The more debilitating the illness, the longer people are off. The more debilitating the illness, the less likely they are to ever be fit to work. This is what happens when the logically challenged are allowed near statistics.
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u/Infamous-Lake-1126 1d ago
Meanwhile her Netflix subscription and complimentary flights to China are perfectly acceptable uses of tax payers money.
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u/PhimoChub30 1d ago edited 1d ago
Back in 2015 when along with the other Labour right traitors and saboteurs etc When they tried to overthrow Jeremy Corbyn and failed, then they called another leadership election(which failed) etc Well in that leadership challenge Liz Kendall only got less than 4% of the vote from the Labour membership. She was very open about her Tory beliefs and anti disabled & welfare beliefs. And the ordinary Labour membership rejected her. Point is Its always been apparent she's a nutty, nasty right wing lunatic psychopath. An absolutely vile person. Corbynites tried to warn us 10 years ago.
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u/WillQuill989 1d ago
That's how he won! She kicked off her campaign as the front runner and made everyone recoil and head to the left. Her and Harman marching the Labour benches to vote yes on the benefit cuts.
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u/Aggravating_Ad2174 1d ago
Soon won't be anything left to take from the poor, sick, old and disabled, might start on the MPs expenses then but doubt , if there was only a way to tax the dead
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u/WillQuill989 1d ago
Don't I have a friend who for many years has joked they'll be knocking on graves next.
Why aren't you working?
I'm dead
That's no excuse you workshy scrote
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u/SoggyWotsits Cornwall 22h ago
Technically there’s inheritance tax for that. A tax on property that’s already been taxed, and bought with money that’s also been taxed.
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u/TesticleezzNuts 1d ago
That’s it, keep punching them into the ground. Do everything but tax the wealthy. There’s still some more tears and suffering you can squeeze out off them yet.
Fucking evil scum.
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u/OliLombi County of Bristol 1d ago
>Refuses to fix NHS to get people back to work
>Can't figure out why people are off work sick
>Punishes people for being sick
A toddler could work it out better than our government.
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u/SoggyWotsits Cornwall 22h ago
Yet people will still defend them and say they’re doing good job. It’s mind boggling!
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u/PanglossianView 1d ago
I would say Tories in disguise but they’re not even trying to hide it. Hideous.
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u/thingsliveundermybed Scotland 1d ago
You can tell the people who have never worked a job that destroyed their mental health. Or physical health, for that matter. Getting signed off when I was losing it at my old job gave me time to get therapy and find a better job without losing the ability to pay rent. This whole thing is ridiculous without a major improvement to NHS services and drastically shortened wait times at the very very least.
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u/Mountainenthusiast2 22h ago
Exactly! And it could be something personal that you only want to talk to your GP about, who you can trust more rather than some private company.
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u/Ulysses1978ii 1d ago
Well apparently clinical depression is just having a bad day now. Much akin to a bad back...
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u/Wide_Tune_8106 1d ago
'Good work is really, really good for mental health.' 12hr shifts in a factory will make you feel amazing. This is for your own good. If you top yourself then boohoo.
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u/WillQuill989 1d ago
If you top yourself you've removed a future welfare dependent from the pool (pensions are the biggest portion of the "welfare" bill) so well done thank you for your service social security number AB123456C
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u/LucidTopiary 23h ago
The dwp has a track record of covering up suicides caused by them. Ive lost count of the number of reports we know they've written about this but have suppressed from public consumption. Im sure theres nothing to hide..
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u/LucidTopiary 23h ago
This government is treating disabled people as 'useless eaters'. A charming term coined by Nazis to dehumanise disabled people and justify their mass murder before the second world war started. It's disgusting.
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u/Cyrillite 1d ago
The doctors I know will issue sick notes very easily. Why? Because they don’t have the time to deal with anything, let alone malingering. That’s not to say all sick notes are feigned, but it is to say that sick notes are easily abused because doctors just don’t have time to spare.
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u/If_What_How_Now 1d ago
Then, as already recognised due to other shortcomings in the NHS, the answer is to increase spending and staffing.
Not to hand medical decisions to a financial department with an agenda.
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u/Mountainenthusiast2 19h ago
Exactly. It seems the comments here that are agreeing with this are from potential medical professionals. I understand they are overworked and resources are low but we are ultimately agreeing that that's what needs to be fixed, but switching sick notes away from their responsibility is not it. If they could look at it from a patient's perspective, I wouldn't want to be referred to some third party person when I'm feeling unwell needing a sick note, I want to be able to speak confidentially to somebody that I trust has my best interests, which would be my GP. That's a huge privilege they should feel and not lose sight of.
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u/Lumpy_Argument_1867 1d ago edited 1d ago
Dwp will be the final arbiter if you're sick enough to be on sick leave.
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u/much_good 1d ago
Thank you labour party, I wasn't aware private companies had actually been really good at doing what should be the public sectors remit. Clearly I've been misremembering all of the ways they've rinsed the government and failed to ever actually do socially good work in water privatisation, rail privatisation, PFI contracts, energy production. Yep turns out they all worked great and we're wrong!
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u/Tw4tl4r 1d ago
The problem is that the NHS is collapsing and people can't get the medical and mental health support that used to be available. Employment support isn't going to help someone with severe pain or mental health issues.
Many people are also out of work because very few employers are willing to make changes to accommodate their condition. It's an extra cost that they don't want to pay out. Having to wait years for a diagnosis makes it even harder to get accommodations made for you.
If they want people off of sickness benefits then they need to fix the NHS, not blame the people who are for the most part, unable to work enough to support themselves.
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u/comradejenkens Devon 1d ago
Boy am I excited for time off sick to be denied for my manual handling job due an operation in a couple of months.
I'm sure having a huge stitched together wound will be no problem when having to lift 600kg+ per shift.
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u/LukeBennett08 1d ago
Partly, good. But there should also be acknowledgement that our job market is very tough, with poor salaries and when a company decides you are not in their plans they can force you out within 12-16 weeks at any point.
Before 2 Years employment you technically are 24 hours from unemployment at any point.
Rightly or wrongly, some people are faced with impending unemployment, or a 3 month sicknote in order to delay proceedings and find something else.
Improve the job market, salaries and upward mobility, putting power back into working people and not corporations and suddenly the number of sicknotes will drop.
I appreciate Labour are focussing on NEETs and long term sick. But there needs to also be an understanding that many people off sick are desperately trying to find work before they're forced into unemployment
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u/Al_Snows_Head 1d ago
I voted for Labour as in general I’ve always been a Labour guy. They’ve lost my vote though. This attack of disabled people is just cruel. I understand benefit fraud is an issue (not as big an issue as billion pound companies not paying their way in tax), but their measures don’t just punish people gaming the system, it’s punishing the people who are the most vulnerable in our society. It’s disgusting, and quite frankly shocking that this is the route they’re going down.
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u/RoamingFreedomSeeker 23h ago
If someone had told you all of this was in the books before the election, would you have believed them?
I was sure that Labour would turn into Tory on steroids with pinch of warmongering..
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u/Al_Snows_Head 22h ago
Probably not because the idea that any part would go after the disabled is a pretty out there idea. Hindsight is 20-20 though.
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u/SoundsVinyl 1d ago
It’s sickening. End of the day if someone’s too ill to work they shouldn’t be making themselves worse, health is more important and a lot of jobs pay very little for very physical work. People are putting their health on the line to be able to live money wise. Pure disgusting, labour were disgusting ti the working class last time they were in power. We need a party for the people who doesn’t want to line their own pockets and doesn’t understand the way people have to live who can’t afford private healthcare.
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u/dick_piana 1d ago
How many vacancies/jobs are there in the UK vs how many people are Labour trying to force back into work through benefit cuts?
What are the plans to increase the supply of available jobs?
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u/AuRon_The_Grey 23h ago edited 23h ago
Being able to get fit notes when dealing with injuries and illnesses is what lets me stay in employment instead of having to quit because of being unable to work. What good, exactly, is a career guidance service meant to be when you have a concussion or have an illness that takes more than 5 days to go away?
Also a notably nasty thing here:
The reforms will also see younger people – those under the age of 22 – no longer able to claim the health element of universal credit if they are signed off with sickness.
So I guess we're also going to pretend that there's no such thing as long term illnesses or injuries that can affect you if you're under 22 now, are we?
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u/LordLucian 1d ago
Businesses are not more qualified to assess whether or not someone is fit for work than medical professionals. This is insane.
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u/Acceptable-Heron6839 1d ago
What the fuck is happening?!
Is the current Labour Party actually further right leaning than Boris’ Tories?
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u/AlcoholicCumSock 1d ago
How about create some jobs before kicking people who are sick off the sick?
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u/TinFish77 23h ago
These are working people that Labour are talking about here. I thought they said they are on the side of working people?
So far nothing that Labour have said has turned out to have any basis in reality. They surely have back-tracked on everything.
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u/JoBoSoMo Wales 23h ago
If I hadn't of had the fit notes that gave me time to seek therapy, time for the pills to work, time for crisis interventions to do the work and time to be away from a toxic, bullying environment with space to find another job I would have ended my life last year. Combined with sick pay and support, I kept my head above water to return to a semi-meaningful life without too much financial damage. I was able to keep my house and some sanity.
Yes, they are fn needed and GPs need to sign them, not a faceless desk worker who will probably advise "have you tried taking a walk or having a bath to get over your depression?" Speel.
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u/Interesting_Skill915 1d ago
If the doctor or this new system decides you can’t physical do XYZ that is essential to your job what do they expect the employer to do? Make another job up just for them?
Send you to work somewhere else for the month while you can’t do your ok job?
While some parts of the population will be rubbing hands together with glee. It’s all fine and dandy till you need take a month off work and suddenly “no one is sick enough to be off” starts messying with your life.
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u/drewbles82 1d ago
I really hate all this push to get back to work cuz its only going to fail...they are doing nothing about the fact up to 40% of jobs could be gone within 10years, ai is advancing very quickly and more companies are using it which means no need for as much staff...robots will be used in warehouses, there are already unmanned areas in large warehouses all over now...Amazon plans to replace all humans so what work exactly will there be for all these people
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u/digixu 23h ago
Funnily this affects me personally. Im 35 I work hospitality have last 15 years currently bar tender/mixologist/bar supervisor.
I have my own personal alchohol license and up until August last year I was doing 45-50 hours a week.
Wife and I work at the same place; they treat us as one person so one of us always off to look after 3 yead old kid.
I tore my acl and have a cyst and my knee needs surgery I've been on nhs wait list since Dec. Walking is agony. Stairs are like the devil's work. I am on 30/500 cocodemol and 500mg naproxen just to function. I'm now on Universal Credit I've been waiting 5 months for this damn operation and now I have to attend a work capability assessment.
My thought is id Maybe they fix the nhs wait lists so I can get fixed and get back to fucking work instead of cutting the benefit I wouldn't need if the fucking surgery would happen sooner.
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u/Beer-Cave-Dweller 22h ago
Never liked her. Especially when she was on the 2015 ballot.
She would fit into the Lib Dems and Tories better.
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u/untakenu 22h ago
In her head it works like this:
Under 22: clearly faking. No possible chance it could be legit.
A long term condition: clearly faking. The fact that people with chronic illnesses are less likely to return to work might indicate the severity of the illness, but no, it's clear they'd rather rake in those disability stacks.
When you get a sick note, that is all the doctor does. Doesn't offer medicine or physio or anything. They simply say "here's a week, get better", meanwhile you've had your hand cut off. This is how doctors work, of course. So you need to phone a third party, likely also very busy (why do I get the feeling you'll be in limbo between a doctor signing you off and this company agreeing or overruling this decision?)
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u/Front_Push_332 1d ago
The one time I had a sick note, I took it into my occupational health centre, who flat out told me this doesn’t mean you can’t work, it’s just guidance
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u/Saltypeon 1d ago
will be looking at issues like the fit note and what more we can do, there because too many people are being written off rather than actually being provided with help and support
Without treatment, Sopra shitheads aren't going to help.
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u/Mountainenthusiast2 1d ago
This is completely the wrong direction. Where is the trust for the GPs signing the forms in the first place? If people are signed off by their GP then they are too sick to work, either physically or mentally. What should be done is looking at why people are unwell for longer periods and what can be done to help rehabilitation back into the work place or any adjustments that might be needed.
Treating them like criminals and forcing them back when they’re not fit to work is not it.
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u/CarlMacko 1d ago
I always thought the Red Tories nickname was ridiculous.
However each passing day is proving it to be accurate.
It’s no surprise swathes of people don’t vote when the government changes but the policies stay identical.
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u/unbelievablydull82 1d ago
Bunch of spineless, cruel, inhumane cowards. These are the type of ," working class", that would look their noses down at others when growing up for not being as good as them. I can't vote for these arseholes again, and it'll be on them for choosing unnecessary policies that are hated by many. Even with their pr blitz in the media, trying to make disabled people out as the problem, it isn't making them look good.
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u/Dramatic-Ad-4607 22h ago
They are the same ones who pull the ladder up behind them when they move out of the working class / council estate area they were raised in and look down on you everytime they see you.
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u/Logical_Classic_4451 22h ago
I thought Labour were in government? Or did I miss something? Nobody (except maybe Blair) would recognise this lot, they are barely any better than than the last mob. Starmer was never inspiring but I expected better than this.
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u/Still-Status7299 1d ago
Sick notes are easily abused to be honest
But the risk of a big sweeping change is you will also screw over the people with genuine claims
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u/OkFeed407 1d ago
Sometimes I do wonder if they know people won’t vote them in again. They have been messing everyone up other than a small group of people who owns the majority of the wealth.
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u/PatientWhimsy 23h ago
Breaking this down:
- Kendall wants to overhaul sick notes
- Stated goal: Prevent people falling out the work force due to health
- Kendall points to evidence that "the longer a person is signed off work for, the less likely they are to return to employment."
- GP's are/would be "referring people to employment support"
- The rest of the article talks about other changes/cuts, likelihood of getting the votes for it, and denying people under 22 the same priveleges afforded to older citizens.
I don't actually see what this "referring people to employment support" is supposed to look like.
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u/lemon-fizz 23h ago
Im at the point where I genuinely feel sad and scared living in this country. I feel anxious every day and worried for what will come and how I will cope. This is no way to live. I imagine suicide rates will rise in the coming years.
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u/Dramatic-Ad-4607 22h ago
Right there with you. Scared of being outside as it’s not safe. Scared about prices going up and being unable to afford anything. Scared of losing our flat. Scared every night when I go to sleep. I can’t handle it. If I didn’t have my husband and my family I can honestly say I’d of ended it by now
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u/Academic_Noise_5724 23h ago
This sounds like a massive waste of money that will achieve a lot less than if they just made work pay
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u/Allnamestaken69 20h ago
I’m never voting labour ever again.
Some alternative party but never labour or conservative and definitely not reform
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u/butterypowered 1d ago
The previous Conservative government had said it wanted to look again at how readily people were signed off work sick by their GP, with a promised review of the fit note system.
Great to see the two party system really working for this country. What a fucking joke British politics is.
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u/Nights_Harvest 23h ago
Can we tax the rich?
Anything over 10milion in assets slapped with 2% tax, won't even make a difference to their lives.
All this will do is unearth och so unknown and mysterious story of high unemployment because there just aren't enough jobs.
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u/sickofadhd 23h ago
she's fucking deluded
maybe because business greed is trumping all at the moment, they don't want to support people who do go off sick for whatever reason. why do you think entry level jobs are now asking for a year (or more) of experience? because businesses don't want to spend time investing in people
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u/ticca_to_ride 21h ago
From a mental health perspective, we will most likely see a rise in workplace aggression, accidents and suicide as a result of this. I guarantee there will be no GP or psychologist involved in any assessment and it'll be a repeat of the car crash that ESA and PIP assessments have been. When some poor bloke hangs himself at work or locks himself in an industrial oven, the manager will send a bunch of Tesco's flowers to the widow then pin the blame on someone else.
In terms of a GP referring to Employer assistance (probably an Employer Assisted Program) rather than providing a sick note, this should not be an either or, rather a both. EAP is usually in blocks of 4 therapy sessions and is meant to be short term, while that person is on the waiting list for NHS sigh and becomes vastly less effective while that person is still having to go to work; especially if the reason why they are off in the first place is due to management bullying or workplace stress/burn out. I worry that access to an EAP will be used as a tool of coercion by employers, in the same way as employer provided health insurance is in the US.
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u/Suluco87 1d ago
This process is already stressful. I had to do this after major surgery. I couldn't get sick leave or finances approved when I was in hospital after fighting for my life because I could only get proof of what happened unless it came with a discharge letter from the same doctor that did my surgery so I was out of work with no support. My GP couldn't issue a letter without proof from the hospital and confirmation of what happened, where I was and my medical state didn't count without the discharge paperwork.
Then I get out with a PIC line in to be told I can still work 10 hours a week as I made it to an appointment in person because I wasn't allowed to have a virtual one that was booked 3 weeks after I was discharged to check I needed any financial support. My GP hadn't sent them a letter before I attended said UC appointment even though I had a copy along with all medical information from my surgical team explaining how bad I was that was never taken and they wouldn't accept and there is actually no direct way to do this.
Yeah you want to add a private company into this as another roadblock that will be impossible to actually get in contact with a human, people are going to get hurt or worse. If I didn't have my oh for support when trying to sort things out I wouldn't have had the energy and I still had to attend appointments with a question of why I wasn't in work because they had not "received any proof of illness"with no way to upload it and staff refusing to take it.
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u/External-Piccolo-626 23h ago
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a party bomb as much as these. Rewind back to the election and they were being seen as heroes by most on here.
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u/Burzeltheswiss 21h ago
My boss was an asshat and always told me i had to come to work no matter what, and because i was young and naive i did come in sick alot. When i had covid in the beginning of 2021 he said i had to come in anyways and its just a flu. I myself tolerated covid not so bad but i infected my boss and 2 co workers. Bosses wife died 1 1/2 months afterwards of covid complications because he infected her after getting it trough me. He tried to sue me and everything, luckily this bozo wrote me everytime on whatsapp and show everything and got a nice paycheck. Boss lost his wife, Job and status.
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u/OSfrogs 21h ago
What the fuck is going on where is the massive push to cause as much harm to vulnerable people as possible coming from? We need a revolution now, or we are going to turn into Nazi Germany thanks to this neoliberalism virus. How are these ideas able to pass so easily without being challenged? If you are not able to increase the returns for cooperations who dont give a shit about you, then you are worthless and have no right to anything according to Labour. Will never vote for them again after what they have been doing.
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u/TheFlowzilla 19h ago
"About 400,000 people were “falling out of work due to sickness” every year, Kendall said – pointing to evidence that the longer a person is signed off work for, the less likely they are to return to employment."
People are more likely to die when they have to stay in the hospital frequently. So if we just stop people from going to the hospital...
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u/TheLightStalker 17h ago
Vile manipulative callous piece of work. Quicker she's gone the better. These strategies will not work. We all see and will make sure they won't.
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u/MDK1980 England 1d ago
Once had a phone appointment with a GP during the pandemic. Completely unrelated to my appointment, she just asked out of the blue what I did for a living and how I was doing. Joked that working in IT during COVID was pretty stressful, and she immediately offered to book me off for a month for stress. I was pretty taken aback, and politely declined, but she insisted that if I ever needed it that I should just ring the office and she'd sign me off, and I could repeat it necessary. Seems there are a lot of people out there who took their GPs up on the offer.
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u/sarcalas 1d ago
She is not representative, GPs are (obviously, I’d have thought) not supposed to proactively push sick notes.
Personal experience and those I’ve heard of others is that they’re not difficult to obtain, but certainly not as easy as you describe. I had to discuss my symptoms and have an assessment and they never issued one for more than a week, at which point they wanted a telephone review of my progress.
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u/Leading_Confidence64 1d ago
So what if you just need to be signed off for a couple weeks?
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u/Happytallperson 1d ago
A major mechanism that would help people get back to work would be q properly resourced and run Access to Work scheme.
For some reason, never appears in these 'back to work' drives.
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u/Mistborn54321 23h ago
I’m genuinely curious if they’ve been any different than the Tories everyone was so desperate to get rid of. I see the same thing happening in my country where the liberals are going further right and people are buying into it.
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u/eatmywholeheart 22h ago
So the context is that job centres have been scaling back the amount of support their work coaches can provide their claimants because they're understaffed and current work coaches are overworked.
Is there a reason for this? I find it hard to believe that, of all places, job centres would struggle to fill internal positions. The existence of understaffed job centres is a disgrace but probably points more to the fact that jobs simply don't exist rather than people not wanting to work.
Without measures to ensure jobs are available or measures to create jobs, policies to get people off benefits are a straight up evil way of just straight up discarding people.
This government knows full well that this will do nothing to improve employment but I guess it might usher a bunch of people out of the unemployment statistics which will be the angle of the retrospective of these efforts I imagine.
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