r/vegan • u/[deleted] • 20h ago
Discussion Pete Holmes and the case for forgiveness.
[deleted]
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u/olympiadukakis 20h ago
Pete’s whole premise here is basically that vegans are angry, and yeah, okay, we are. But not, I think, in the flailing, irrational way he’s hinting at.
I listened to his podcast back in the day, when it was all microdosing and macro misunderstandings, and Pete has a habit of using “vegan” when he really means “plant-based,” which . . . important difference. The take he’s offering here? This is a plant-based take.
Yes, you should absolutely accept people where they are. You don’t shove people who aren’t remotely open to change. That’s just emotional physics.
But also: it’s completely right to take a moral stand. You’re allowed. You’re supposed to. You don’t need to hand your ethical backbone over to the first person who looks vaguely uncomfortable. And, side note, if someone who once “accidentally” ate a sirloin burger is trying to write the official Rulebook of Veganism? Maybe, just maybe, we don’t need to let that person set the standard. Maybe we just gently, lovingly, with the kindest smile possible, take their pen away.
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u/FrostbiteWrath veganarchist 20h ago
Eh. Call me an asshole, but a regular person is better than a child-murderer, just like the average vegan is better than a regular person.
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u/veganvampirebat vegan 10+ years 20h ago
. Being drunk doesn’t make you eat meat, unless I guess you blackout and no longer register what you’re doing, but then you shouldn’t drink.
Nonvegans are allowed on this sub. If you aren’t committed to veganism in every moment then you aren’t vegan, but that doesn’t mean you’re permanently banned from becoming vegan.
If you eat meat in non-survival situations then you shouldn’t be kicked out but god bless you are a complete moron if you think you’re vegan.
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u/AyashiiWasabi vegan 2+ years 20h ago edited 20h ago
I think the issue a lot of people have is when they say they will continue to turn a blind eye once in a while to use your words “folks who have a fish sandwich from time to time.” If that was in your past and moving forward you don’t willingly or deliberately put yourself in a situation to consume animal products then you’re vegan. But if you’re doing this once in a while cheating you’re not vegan. That’s not what veganism stands for, it’s great to reduce your reliance on animal products as long as you have an active goal towards eliminating it. We don’t encourage drug addicts to relapse to taking drugs every few months and call them sober do we? It’s great if you’re cutting back but with the goal of eventually going sober. If we start calling people vegan who eat animal products deliberately what’s the point of the word anymore? Also veganism is a political movement for the freedom of animals, it’s not a diet. They can call themselves flexitarian or mostly plant based and no one has any issues.
This isn’t the case all the time but its almost like these people want to hear validation that you can still be vegan and eat fish or name your animal product of choice once in a while. We’re never going to validate that. If they made a mistake and now they’re looking to go vegan and stay consistent you have my support but if they never intend to actually go vegan then I’m not sure why they’re here in a community of people who support and want people to go vegan.
Also I’m not taking about accidentally eating something without the knowledge that it’s not vegan btw. It’s the deliberate conscious choice to eat animal products that we don’t support.
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u/BobFromCincinnati 18h ago
He even suggests that though we, and he himself, made the decision of veganism because of moral grounds, that doesn’t make anyone better than the other.
That's the kind of milquetoast take you use when you try to appeal to everyone. It's comedy for the banal (e.g. Pete Holmes fans).
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u/whateverworks14235 18h ago
Holy fuck man you are sooo much better than everyone. Shit man I just came THINKING about it!
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u/veganvampirebat vegan 10+ years 18h ago
Dude you’re not being your best self rn. Your original post was thoughtful and well-written, even if I disagree with you on some points. A lot of your replies are embarrassing.
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u/OnTheMoneyVegan abolitionist 18h ago
He even suggests that though we, and he himself, made the decision of veganism because of moral grounds
Nice try, but there's no "we" here. We can see your post history, we know you're a carnist just stirring shit up. Forgive me for not wanting to take advice on kindness and forgiveness from someone who thinks breeding beings into captivity simply to kill and eat/wear them at a fraction of their lifespans is A-OK.
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u/whateverworks14235 18h ago
I don’t care about your opinion.
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u/OnTheMoneyVegan abolitionist 18h ago
Sure, but you did make a whole-ass post expecting people to care about yours, which is an absolutely laughable self-own on your part.
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u/goodvibesmostly98 vegan 20h ago
Yeah I mean I just think it’s important to be civil. You don’t need to be thrilled with people’s choices, but there’s no reason to get emotional with people.
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u/iFuJ vegan 20h ago
Ultimately 10 imperfect 'vegans'/ 'plant based' people will do more good than 1 perfect vegan. If people understood this more then it will be a more welcoming community
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u/One-Shake-1971 18h ago
They actually won't.
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u/ObtainSustainability 18h ago
They will, though. This person is saying in an all-or-nothing scenario the effect of 10 people eating vegan but making mistakes sometimes, or eating plant based is more impact than the effect of one person being pure vegan (meaning 9 others are still eating a meat included diet). We don’t live in that simple of a scenario but the point they’re trying to make is encouraging people to move in the direction of veganism has a benefit even if they haven’t made it to 100% vegan lifestyle yet. And yes, I think we should eat 100% vegan but I think there’s wisdom to opening the path for that in an accepting and forgiving way while keeping the eye on the 100% goal.
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u/One-Shake-1971 16h ago
I don't actually believe that is true. Sure, in the short term, following a plant-based diet will lead to fewer animals being exploited. In the long term, though, we need people who are actually committed to animal rights to achieve animal liberation. So yeah, I'd take one committed vegan over ten flexitarians. Not for some ideological reasons but because I actually believe the first one gets us closer to the end goal.
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u/whateverworks14235 18h ago
God you are so much better than them. I mean you are just a fucking GOD compared to those sodomites!
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u/madeline_weste 17h ago
That video is 6 years old...he has since given himself so much grace that he's not even vegan anymore
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u/DoItForThem11 20h ago
I looked at this sub originally to get ideas on how I can support my gf with her vegan beliefs and diet. I had originally thought vegans would be understanding of other people’s beliefs and diet choices but I came to find that the community at large has some of the most hateful humans I’ve ever encountered. It turned me off pretty quickly. The dehumanization of people that believe differently and practice a different lifestyle is pretty rampant here.
I like your post and it seems extremely reasonable to welcome others who have a different mindset rather than to treat them like lepers.
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u/AyashiiWasabi vegan 2+ years 20h ago
You’re not the victim the animals are.
Veganism is a political movement to free the animals. It’s not about your feelings, it’s about the animals who die everyday to support everyone’s 15 mins of dinner dopamine 3x a day. If you eat animal products you can see how we wouldn’t respect your “beliefs” to contribute to torture rape and slaughter innocent living beings? Not sure why we would prioritize your hurt feelings over the animals that are actually dying to support your lifestyle?
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u/DoItForThem11 20h ago
Here is an example of someone with a lot of growing to do. My gf explained to me that most vegans go through a mean and angry phase that usually lasts a few years until they do some evaluation. She admits to being this way herself.
That anger and resentment you feel are also feelings. You are allowed to have them because you are human. I wish you beautiful days.
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u/AyashiiWasabi vegan 2+ years 20h ago
I’m not angry or resentful with you. I just want to make it clear that this fantasy of “respecting each other’s beliefs” isn’t real. I’d love to pour in hours to help you go vegan if that’s what you decide to do, but I’m not gonna validate your feelings that it’s okay to eat animal products and I respect you doing that because you respect me being vegan. The distinction has to be made, we’re not here to coddle people who want to continue to consume animal products. I’m here and ready to help if you want to go vegan. I’m not mad at you for your past, and you have all my support to go vegan if you choose to.
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u/DoItForThem11 20h ago
Thank you!
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u/AyashiiWasabi vegan 2+ years 19h ago
You’re welcome and I mean it! I also want to say that even spending time reading more about what our point of view is a step forward and I’m sure that means a lot to your partner. I strongly urge that you watch dominion.
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u/olympiadukakis 19h ago
Starting off your comment here by saying this subreddit is angry? That’s not exactly good faith. It’s not full-blown trolling, sure, but you’ve definitely got one foot in the pond.
Different beliefs should absolutely be respected. No argument. But, veganism isn’t a belief, it’s an understanding. Once you understand veganism, eating animal products isn’t really a “personal belief” thing anymore.
I don’t believe I shouldn’t hurt animals. I understand that I shouldn’t. It’s not ideology. It’s basic, boring decency.
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u/DoItForThem11 19h ago
Certainly not trolling. It’s a pretty angry corner of the internet.
It is ideology. To claim otherwise is disingenuous. It’s what you believe. Ideally you don’t want animals hurt. Understanding would be to control what you can control.
I assure you for every person you convert to your ideology you turn off several more. Live your life how you want without pretending you understand the life experiences of others.
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u/olympiadukakis 19h ago
If hurting animals is objectively wrong, and we know it is. And if you can live a full, healthy life without doing it, which we know you can. Then veganism isn’t really an ideology. It’s not a belief system in the way that astrology or libertarianism or CrossFit (😆) are belief systems.
It’s more like the logical next step after understanding some basic facts about harm, health, and survival. It’s reality, with the added burden of responsibility.
Veganism, at its core, isn’t a lifestyle, though I’ll grant you some folks do seem to make it seem like one. IMO, it’s just what happens when your actions stop arguing with your ethics.
Trying to convert someone is absolutely harmful, so I agree with you there. You can’t force it. But helping someone understand, be it about animal welfare or anything, really, is the responsible thing to do. So, we try.
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u/DoItForThem11 19h ago
Right. They are “your” actions and “your” ethics. It’s absolutely subjective and based on individual beliefs. There is absolutely nothing objective about it. You and I may not want animals harmed but that’s just what we believe.
Reality is understanding that it’s not objective.
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u/olympiadukakis 18h ago
I get that this feels like a difference in personal beliefs. But disagreement doesn’t automatically mean something is subjective. People once disagreed about whether the earth was round. The disagreement didn’t change the shape of the earth.
Also, I think we might be mixing up preferences (“I like chocolate”) with ethical facts (“causing unnecessary suffering is wrong”). Harm isn’t just a feeling I have, it’s an external, observable reality.
Respectfully, calling it “belief” kind of dodges the real conversation. It’s not about “my ethics” floating separately from yours. It’s about whether we agree that suffering matters, and if we do, what we’re willing to do about it.
Reality is super complex and I’m getting from your tone that you’re not going to budge right now, and that’s ok. I’ll leave you with this though: something being complex doesn’t mean nothing is true. Oftentimes it just means the truth is harder than we’d like.
Thanks for the chat. This was fun.
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u/DoItForThem11 18h ago
I’m not trying to be budged. I feel like we can have a conversation without being recruited.
What we see in the food production industry is pure nature. It may be industrialized with nuts and bolts but natural organisms (humans) built these things like a beaver builds a dam.
Humans are behaving the way humans behave in nature and the proof is something that you have seen with your eyes and have certainly not denied.
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u/whateverworks14235 19h ago
Self fellatio at its finest son.
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u/DoItForThem11 19h ago
Hey dude. Pete Holmes is a national treasure right!
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u/whateverworks14235 19h ago
He really is man. He’s also a vegan but this sub probably thinks he’s an absolute MONSTER.
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u/DoItForThem11 17h ago
The cause is commendable, the approach is not. I do believe a lot of vegans grow out of the hateful approach once they reach the acceptance stage of their grief.
They don’t like animal cruelty and I can validate that feeling.
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u/FierceMoonblade vegan 20+ years 20h ago
I had originally thought vegans would be understanding of other people’s beliefs and diet choices
If I understood or respected other choices, I wouldn’t be vegan. You’re expecting something of vegans that’s impossible for us to do. Just like I don’t respect people’s choice to partake in dog fighting or other reprehensible garbage
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u/DoItForThem11 20h ago
Sure. I respect your beliefs even if you don’t respect mine. It’s just you are damaging the movement. There are better approaches. You are an adult, you can accept other humans for who they are even if you find their beliefs repulsive…because that’s what grown ups practice.
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u/heuwuo vegan 7+ years 19h ago
An individual can’t damage a movement because a movement is an idea. It lives beyond people.
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u/DoItForThem11 19h ago
It doesn’t live at all. Ideas don’t live. You are trying to church up your “idea” with poetry. It’s man made and has nothing to do with the natural order of things. It’s ideology.
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u/heuwuo vegan 7+ years 19h ago
😐 okay hater
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u/DoItForThem11 19h ago
No I don’t hate you. I love what veganism stands for. It’s the approach that is off putting.
It’s like the ideology of Christianity. Like Yung said “I love your Christ, it’s your Christians that scare me.”
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u/FancyJacket8777 vegan 10+ years 19h ago
I don't know who "Yung" is but neither he nor Jung said that.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/did-gandhi-say-this-about-christians/
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u/DoItForThem11 19h ago
Okay.
“I love your vegan ideology, but your vegans are hateful and non inclusive.”
- Doitforthem11
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u/FancyJacket8777 vegan 10+ years 19h ago
The paradox of tolerance. We have to "include" people who like murdering animals or we are the real murderers. Or something.
You aren't as smart as you seem to think you are.
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u/SophiaofPrussia friends not food 19h ago edited 18h ago
But surely you have to interact with plenty of omnis IRL, right? Whatever your personal opinion of their behavior might be I imagine you don’t berate them for their meal choices and call them a murderer. I know I don’t. And I’ve never in my life seen a vegan harass someone in person. So why is it so hard for us to extend that same grace to people in online spaces?
Would it be great if everyone were vegan? Obviously. But I don’t think any minds are changed through name-calling and gatekeeping. Someone who comes to this sub is at least vegan-curious. Do you think they’re more likely to go vegan if we treat them kindly or if we treat them disrespectfully?
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u/FierceMoonblade vegan 20+ years 17h ago
Respectfully, where was I gatekeeping or namecalling?
Like I’m sorry but if this was about any other issue, no one would be demanding “respect” for others choices, or calling the slightest bit of disagreement as being “mean” or namecalling. This is only because society has accepted that it’s ok to abuse some animals and not others.
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u/whateverworks14235 20h ago
100%. The hate here is unmatched. So is the entitlement.
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u/jabain 18h ago
I'm vegan and I get where you're coming from to some degree (I like Pete Holmes), but if you think the hate here in this vegan subreddit is unmatched you aren't looking very hard. Veganism is a moral philosophy and type of activism that is very distinct from plant-based (non-ideological). People here are not interested in making meat eaters feel good about themselves. Try going to a feminist forum and say you think a little misogyny is fine. You'll likely be outright banned and will find the vegans much more respectful.
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u/SophiaofPrussia friends not food 19h ago
Yes! I say this all the time! But I think some people use being vegan as a way to feed their own ego and put others down. I personally think that approach is bad for Veganism and bad for the animals. A bit of grace goes a long way.
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u/One-Shake-1971 18h ago
To receive forgiveness, you need to a) accept your mistake and b) do better in the future. When non-vegans do that, a.k.a. become vegan, they should indeed be forgiven but not before.
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u/veganvampirebat vegan 10+ years 18h ago
I mean who is going to forgive anyone who goes vegan? The animals? I wouldn’t be surprised, nor would I blame them, if animals could speak and told us where to shove our apologies. It’s pretty unforgivable.
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u/whateverworks14235 18h ago
Take a piss mate. Who the fuck are you to “give forgiveness?” You’re not.
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u/Doctor_Box 20h ago
I don't think this is a crazy take. We need to treat people as the flawed individuals they are. I understand why people have a hard time changing. Human psychology, social pressure, and cultural indoctrination make it hard to break out. That doesn't mean you don't expect change in people though. Judgement is not bad. There are simply better or worse ways to reach people.
As for the drunken burger mistake I don't know anything about the situation but it sounds like Pete Holmes also recognizes the mistake though. That is different than someone making excuses for bad behavior they know is immoral.
About this part though:
I'd like to know what kind of situation this is referring to. Kicking folks out of what? If someone is saying they're vegan but eat fish I think it's fair to call that out. People are not entitled to a label.