r/vegan • u/rubyroobutterflygodd • 20h ago
Discussion Can you truly be feminist while supporting the meat and dairy industry?
I’ve been thinking a lot lately about the intersections between feminism and veganism especially the idea that supporting the meat and dairy industries contradicts core feminist values.
The exploitation of female bodies (e.g., forced impregnation, separation from offspring, use of reproductive systems for profit) in animal agriculture is eerily similar to systems of oppression feminists actively resist when it comes to human rights.
So it raises the question: can someone genuinely call themselves a feminist while continuing to consume products that rely on the control and commodification of female animal bodies?
I’m curious how others here view this, do you see veganism as a natural extension of feminism? Or do you think they can exist separately?
Would love to hear your thoughts (and any reading recs if you’ve come across good writing on this topic)! would love to do my diss on something similar (:
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u/Fun_Tell_7441 veganarchist 19h ago
I'd argue that the beliefs of veganism should speak to the core of any liberation effort. While I actively engage in veganist praxis and discussions it's the easiest to change issue I "work on".
Like fr: Not killing for entertainment and/or comfort is such an easy concept.
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u/CICaesar 46m ago
Once you learn to identify oppression in one area of society, you can't not see it in other ones as well.
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u/SadMangonel 16h ago
These Labels are Fluid anyway.
Feminism is important, as are vegan concepts.
There's no benefit in labelling someone as a "non-true vegan". It needs to be a movement that invites people, not excludes them.
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u/fandom_bullshit 14h ago
I work for an organization that is heavily involved in protecting women from sexual harassment and consider many of my actions feminist. Unfortunately, I live in a world that makes it difficult for me to consider myself completely feminist. I adhere more toward the radical feminism side of things because I don't see any other forms of feminism being in any way useful in my country - India. I don't see feminism as just being about bodily autonomy and consent. I see it as female liberation in its entirety. You can have all the autonomy you want but if you are being treated unfairly because of the assumptions about you made because of your sex i.e, gender, you are not actually equal.
I do see where carnist women are coming from in the sense that we cannot be activists for everything. I've personally chosen to actively work for women's liberation, but I am passively also doing my best for animals by being a vegan and donating to shelters and the like. But they seem to think it wrong to compare the pain of one female animal to another because they consider themselves superior with no actual basis for this superiority. I've gotten into arguments over this and over the term "dehumanising" being used in certain contexts as being treated like an animal. The term being used that way is insulting only because of the way animals are treated.
But overall, no. I don't think it's a feminist action to pay for the raping and murdering or females (or males) for pleasure. It is statistically proven that a slaughterhouse adds to the domestic violence rates around itself because the desensitisation toward violence in the workers lends itself to them hurting their partners as well. There is no form of animal agriculture that is actually good for women. Even dairy is pumped full of ridiculous hormones that women absorb more than men because obviously our biology isn't that different from female cows. Anyone who asvocates for female liberation of one species should advocate for female liberation of another. Unfortunately they don't. We'll keep talking to them about it, hopefully they'll listen eventually.
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u/lezbthrowaway 14h ago
Well, male animal bodies are chopped up and eaten, the same as females. When people say "feminist", they mean in a humanist sense. They want to end the inequality of humans, end exploitation of humans, but not the exploitation of animals.
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u/Diminuendo1 Vegan EA 11h ago
Male animals are sexually exploited also.
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u/lezbthrowaway 10h ago
Yeah. I was thinking. You cant really put patriarchal distinctions upon our treatment of animals. The butchers don't view male cows any more worthy of life than female cows. They will exploit them in any way they can.
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u/rubyroobutterflygodd 7h ago
i agree that any animal which is used for meat or dairy are treated terribly, hence why i am vegan. But arguably female animals are treated a lot worse for the pure fact they’re kept alive to be tortured with rape, pregnancy etc. whereas males are often instantly killed as they’re not issue for the humans. Both disgusting, but elongated torture and trauma for the females.
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u/rubyroobutterflygodd 5h ago
Saying they’re treated that way because they “hold more value” is exactly the problem. It’s not value, it’s exploitation. Female animals are used for what their bodies can produce, then killed when they’re no longer useful. Males are just discarded straight away. It’s not respect, it’s violence in different forms.
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u/rubyroobutterflygodd 5h ago
So what you’re saying is; it’s better to be exploited your whole life just because you’re not killed straight away? I don’t agree with any of it. It’s heartbreaking that male animals are treated like they’re nothing, but that’s a separate issue. What I’m pointing out is the way female animals are used specifically because of their reproductive systems, and how that mirrors the same kind of control feminists fight against.
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u/veganvampirebat vegan 10+ years 20h ago
Yes, because feminism is about humans and veganism is about non-human animals and their rights.
There are things that are considered vegan and acceptable to do to the female reproductive system that would never be acceptable with humans. I’m thinking specifically of spaying female cats and dogs without informed consent, considering they are incapable of informed consent.
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u/qxeen vegan 10+ years 18h ago
If feminism is about opposing the exploitation and domination of female bodies, how can we draw a hard line at species?
The core of feminism is bodily autonomy, consent, and freedom from violence. Those values don’t suddenly vanish when we’re talking about nonhuman animals, especially when we’re talking about the mass control, confinement, forced breeding, and slaughter of billions of female animals every year.
And yes, animals can’t give informed consent, but that’s exactly why we should err on the side of protecting their bodies, not exploiting them. We spay companion animals because we’ve already domesticated them into dependence. That’s not the same as forcibly impregnating or mutilating animals for profit and consumption.
If feminism stops at the species line, then it’s not about justice, it’s just about our group. True intersectional feminism doesn’t ignore suffering just because the victims aren’t human.
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u/Silent-Victory-3861 9h ago
Animal rights activists neuter feral cats and dogs, because without it, they would breed uncontrollably resulting in millions of cats suffering from malnutrition and other lack of care resulting from living feral. It is just as irresponsible as abandoning a kitten to the wild.
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u/Level-Insect-2654 19h ago
Okay, that is a pretty good point. We might be giving ammunition to the carnists with a feminist argument, instead of simply an argument against speciesism.
Distracts from the issue in any case, even though they are intersectional. They still might bring up the cats and dogs. They always bring up how PETA kills so many each year. I won't even go into how dumb the arguments are.
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u/b0lfa veganarchist 18h ago
Read the book The Sexual Politics of Meat. It's a great read for feminists and animal liberation/animal rights advocates alike.
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u/Level-Insect-2654 18h ago
I will have to check it out.
Sometimes I take a step back and I realize how many people out there see us and these ideas as crazy, especially any talk of feminism, veganism, intersectionality, anti-racism, anti-capitalism, or all of it.
I couldn't care less what they think, I just modify my speech depending on the listener, but I have to laugh internally. I can't go back to seeing things any other way and I always have more to learn in any case.
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u/Key-Demand-2569 3h ago
Wish more vegans would appreciate your level headed approach here, it’s what I try to do.
The issue is that when it comes to vegan concepts many people are so passionate they skip over foundational beliefs to argue for something.
Like arguing how a feminist almost certainly should be vegan based on the tenants of feminism as they view them.
And the other person disagrees fundamentally about those really only applying to humans as feminism currently exists.
And then there’s arguing without addressing the speciesism. … and then if they do get to it they’re confronted with the reality, “yeah I think humans are undeniably more important, what are you talking about?”
And there’s just layers of hardline argument that all avoided a foundational belief or many, further entrenching the other person in their beliefs the whole time while they feel they’re being argued at in bad faith.
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u/electrogeek8086 17h ago
Yeah it's crazy that people could disagree with you.
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u/Level-Insect-2654 17h ago edited 17h ago
I didn't say that and I am not sure what you mean unless that was sarcasm.
I am an older white hetero cis-male who looks fairly conservative, but the stereotype of a vegan feminist who supports intersectionality and other concepts which may or may include left-wing ideas is something different.
Maybe it is because I'm from Oklahoma, a pretty conservative South Central U.S. state, although things are changing even here. I'm not virtue-signaling, I still have a long way to go and I still have some views people may see as ignorant or regressive, but some people around here imagine a caricature when they think of those ideas I listed above.
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u/Level-Insect-2654 16h ago edited 13h ago
Are you trying to have a discussion or write more? I would be interested in your thoughts beyond a one-liner.
What is the point otherwise?
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u/SanctimoniousVegoon vegan 5+ years 15h ago
I think it's hypocritical to fight for your own bodily autonomy while defending your right to violate the bodily autonomy of others, especially for frivolous things. Of course I don't think anyone who fails to practice what they preach should call themselves a feminist, but I think we have to be careful how we frame the argument so that people don't immediately shut down.
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u/St_Jage 19h ago
Carol Adams makes a good case for saying supporting feminism and supporting the meat and dairy industry are incompatible. The meat and dairy industry can be seen as part of patriarchal systems. She uses the term "feminized protein" to describe eggs and dairy, and I haven't been able to forget it since.
The video below is an abridged version of some of her thinking.
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u/IndependentHot5236 19h ago
The Sexual Politics of Meat (Carol Adams book) is a great read! It's very dry and academic, but also very thought provoking and interesting.
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u/Samwise777 13h ago
People don’t have the capacity to care about everything.
But I agree with you in theory.
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u/lichtblaufuchs 20h ago
As a man, I don't see myself in a position to tell women if they may call themselves feminist or not. I do agree that feminism should lead to veganism. Intersectionality is warranted and needed.
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u/CoffeeKindnessGames 16h ago
Being a man doesn’t mean you can’t use common sense, I think it’s more about feminist meaning something different to everyone who claims it lol
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u/avrilfan12341 19h ago
My answer is no, not truly. You would love the book The Sexual Politics of Meat by Carol Adams.
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u/Dry-Fee-6746 4h ago
Yes. Most feminists are not vegan. Just like most pacifists aren't vegan. It may be philosophically contradictory, but it's the reality.
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u/benithaglas1 4h ago
Yes, they can, because they are 2 seperate issues. Not saying animal agriculture isn't bad, bit femminism is about human rights and human equity, not animal rights.
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u/havingfun228 vegan 9+ years 18h ago
Yes, as there is no intersection. Gender is a human construct, animals are exploited regardless of sex. Any difference in the way animals are exploited based on sex is done only out of utility.
Animals face oppression from speciesism, not sexism or patriarchy.
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u/SpinningJen 19h ago edited 18h ago
Yes. Feminism is about women, not about females. I'm not about to throw trans women to the rabid terf wolves just to force a new definition of veganism. Women are human. Feminism is about women.
Feminism, veganism, and all other broad social philosophies have specific definitions for a reason. If you widen them too much it becomes effectively useless. You're not feminist unless you're vegan, also unless you take special interest in the socio-politics of DR Congo, also unless all purchases are made from women owned business, also as long as you only buy locally handmade clothes from SAHMs, also don't eat cashews, or rice, or have a pet....
You're not vegan unless you're also proactively advocating for every human cause, and also eating a healthy diet yourself, and also anti-car, and also anti-holiday, and also a union member, and also don't use plastic, and also flush your toilet with rainwater....
Before you know it everyone's overwhelmed because everyone has the responsibility to do everything right or else not being vegan, or feminist and so people just burn out and don't bother with any of it.
Intersectionality is an important consideration and it's always good to talk about overlaps but these concepts are separated for a reason. We just can't cope with everyone doing everything all the time. The phrase "vegan for the animals" expresses the sentiment what veganism is, if we start start including humans in veganism then the humans will become the priority (because most people relate more to humans than animals) and the original concept of "for the animals" is no longer true. Its now just an uncoordinated mishmash of good intentions with no direction or focus.
So yes, a feminist is a feminist even if they eat meat. I hope that their sense of social injustice stretches into veganism too but it doesn't make them any less feminist if that never happens
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u/HappyCoincidences 13h ago
Absolutely agree with your take. Feminism is a political movement for gender equality and the liberation of women, meaning human beings (cis and trans alike) not a catch-all for any biological female body, animal or human.
It’s true that systems of domination often mirror each other, and yes, drawing parallels can be helpful in identifying patterns of exploitation. But merging different movements into one moral litmus test is not only unrealistic, it’s even exclusionary and often ends up replicating the very purity politics that progressive movements should resist.
There’s also a real privilege baked into some of these moral absolutisms. Not everyone has the means, access, health conditions, cultural context, or even the bandwidth to commit to every cause at once. I bet most vegans on here don’t commit to all causes, I bet many of them have iPhones. To which you could say, can you truly be a vegan / a feminist / a (insert cause here) while supporting Apple? Or while buying from Amazon? Or IKEA? Feminism must remain accessible and inclusive if we want it to be effective, and turning it into a lifestyle checklist dilutes its power and alienates people who would otherwise be allies.
Intersectionality is a lens to understand overlapping systems of oppression, not a mandate to juggle every single injustice at once or else be “inauthentic.” We can be mindful of the overlaps without demanding ideological perfection.
So yes, someone can be feminist and still eat meat. They can also be vegan and still uphold racist, classist, or misogynistic views. Political ideologies are ongoing commitments to reflect, act, and do better. But nobody gets there by being shamed or told they don’t “qualify.”
Thanks again for voicing this. It needed to be said.
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u/Proud-Cartoonist-431 20h ago
Easily. Feminism is about equal rights of human women to human men. Nothing damn else!
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u/rubyroobutterflygodd 20h ago
A lot of people define feminism as being solely about human equality. But I think it’s interesting and important to question where those boundaries come from..
If feminism is about opposing domination, exploitation, and bodily autonomy being stripped away, then isn’t there value in looking at how those systems show up beyond just human society?
The way the meat and dairy industries rely on reproductive control, forced pregnancies, and the commodification of female bodies feels like a reflection of the very power structures feminism critiques.
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u/veganvampirebat vegan 10+ years 19h ago
Most people are going to think that there isn’t any value to looking into those things beyond humans because they don’t assign any moral value to animals, outside of maybe cats and dogs.
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u/HollowedAngels 19h ago
I don't take seriously the progressive politics of anyone who is not vegan.
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u/togenari 14h ago
I disagree. People don't consume products of those animals because they're female, but because they're animals.
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u/Few_Understanding_42 11h ago
Totally doesn't make sense. Look at what happens to male animals: male chicks go into the mincer alive. Young bulls go to the butcher shortly after birth. So cruelty isn't specifically done to female animals, to the contrary.
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u/rubyroobutterflygodd 7h ago
Yes, male animals suffer immensely, that’s why I’m vegan. But we can’t ignore that female animals are specifically exploited for their reproductive systems. They’re forcibly impregnated, have their babies taken, and are used as milk or egg machines until they’re no longer profitable. The violence is different, but it’s all part of the same system
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u/MayoBaksteen6 vegan 6h ago
I'm both vegan and a feminists and they definitely align. While feminism is more for humans, I do think it's hypocrite to be against female exploitation while being okay with female cows getting raped, babies and milk stolen. Cuz that's literally exploitment of a female body
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u/whiplashMYQ 5h ago
I think this is a fine question to ask, and there's good parallels to point out in the goals of feminism and veganism, but we should be careful about alienating our allies.
You'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar and all that.
If you tell feminists that they're not real feminists if they're not vegan, you're not gunna make people want to be vegans. They're just gunna disagree with you, keep calling themselves a feminist, and probably go on thinking vegans are preachy and annoying, making them less likely to consider becoming one in the future.
But, if you point out that many of the values that lead them to be a feminist could apply to cows if they acknowledge the potential for suffering and love that cows have, then you're inviting them to consider something, instead of trying to call them a liar or a hypocrite.
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u/QuentinSH vegan newbie 19h ago
Feminisms are wide concepts. Nobody can perfect every aspect of it. IMO Feminists can allow themselves to take a trip to Hawaii even if tourism industry is exploiting indigenous women.
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u/Shmackback vegan 18h ago edited 18h ago
You can be just a human feminist.
Most people usually only care rights if they're the ones who benefit from them. Many feminists dont care about animal rights because they don't benefit off it. In fact, the benefit off their suffering so of course they're fine with it and support it and is why many will lash out if you say something like in the op.
The hypocrisy in people demanding rights but at the same time support oppressing others is very eye opening.
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u/Skitteringscamper 3h ago
Yes you absolute fool of a took.
I suggest you go back to the basics and look up the definition of feminism.
It is pretty clear that it has little to do with meat and dairy. This is called letting your vegan delusions interject themselves into other parts of your common sense frame of reference.
It genuinely blows my mind that you've even been able to headspin yourself into this point of view you're trying to make here. Like, that's next level reaching
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u/Late_Indication_4355 3h ago
I'm not a feminist or vegan but I really don't get how you can't be a feminist without being a vegan. They are pretty different, on one hand feminism is fighting for women and veganism is about animals.
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u/saladt0es vegan newbie 16h ago
The whole point of people who consume animal products is that they don't believe animals have the same rights as humans. So I politely disagree, feminists can absolutely be non vegans. They might only care about women's rights, not animal rights.
Ideally one would be both, but they're different beliefs.
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u/rubyroobutterflygodd 16h ago
As a vegan, I don’t believe animals have the same rights as humans, we live different lives, have different needs. But I do believe they deserve basic rights, like not being forcibly impregnated, having their babies taken away, or being killed when it’s unnecessary. You don’t have to equate animals to humans to empathise with suffering. If feminism is about opposing systemic violence and valuing bodily autonomy, then turning a blind eye to the routine violation of animals especially in dairy isn’t just inconsistent, it’s deeply uncomfortable to justify
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u/saladt0es vegan newbie 16h ago
Personally I agree, and I see your point. I just find it hard to believe that most meat eating feminists would think it's the same thing. People view animals as animals, so forced impregnation, having their babies taken away etc wouldn't apply to feminist beliefs. Many people, even after being told about the suffering animals endure to uphold the industry, tend to say that it's a necessary part of the process. That animals exist to serve us.
If you compared animals being forcibly impregnated and having their babies taken away with the same thing happening to humans, you would unfortunately be viewed as a crazy extremist in most people's eyes.
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u/Lazy_Composer6990 abolitionist 19h ago edited 19h ago
No. Non-vegan 'feminists' are selectively anti-oppression, depending on whose oppression benefits them.
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u/01001110901101111 19h ago
No, the animal agriculture industry is a part of the same system of violence that conditions us into complicity in all the rest of the violence and slavery in the system and funnels resources away from the population to enslave us through unnecessary labor making us less capable of liberation for any and all.
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u/b0lfa veganarchist 18h ago
I can't speak to whether someone can truly be feminist or not if they support the exploitation of others, because a lot of causes people support can be due to their direct benefit and self-interest.
Veganism is one of the few causes whose advocates do not get any direct tangible benefit from supporting it or the victims involved, but chances are that many vegans also support causes which directly benefit themselves. It is fruitless to call others hypocrites for this.
The idea of non-human animal bodies being exploited for their reproductive capabilities in my opinion is similar to the women's struggle for reproductive rights and bodily autonomy.
However, as much as white feminism initially failed to account for the rights for black and indigenous and other women of color in an intersectional manner, so too does the feminism of the animal exploiters fail to account for the rights of the mother animals whose bodies are so thoroughly exploited for profit and pleasure. Taking an intersectional
A good book on the subject of the intersection of feminism and animal rights is The Sexual Politics of Meat by Carol J. Adams. It explains with many exhaustive historical and literary examples of how meat eating and animal exploitation are tied to male chauvinism and patriarchal attitudes of entitlement to the bodies of others, right down to the notion of owning others' bodies as property and treating women like "pieces of meat." The book was written in the 90's but is strongly still relevant today.
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u/OkVacation4725 9h ago
I think this is a broad statement that is actually, at the same time, too narrow. I dont think we should be saying what i am about to say as i think in reality it will turn people off veganism, putting people down is the never the way to get them on side.
However, a more broad and perhaps accurate way of what your saying would be to ask: Can anyone truly be a good person and not be vegan? I'd argue no. But everyone is on a journey and so i want to envourage more people to become vegan over time. It is also more difficult/near impossible for some people to eat plant based depending on their current situation.
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u/MysticBimbo666 5h ago
It’s not antifeminist because of using the female animals’ bodies, it’s because the whole system of factory farming animals is objectifying, reducing conscious beings to merely the products we harvest from them. This is part and parcel to the patriarchal oppression of women, where we are reduced to our sexual functions and the services we provide to men. It only exists because those in power see everyone else as objects for their use.
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u/rubyroobutterflygodd 4h ago
a cult that doesn’t want to murder and exploit animals? as opposed to what? your cult of justifying the mass murder and exploitation of animals??
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u/Appropriate-Dig-7080 4h ago
You can be because feminism by most definitions is concerned with humans only. But I’d say it made you selfish and a bit hypocritical to not care about other species being exploited.
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u/Aceman1979 1h ago
Try telling the vast majority of feminists that they aren’t, in fact, feminist because they aren’t vegan and see where that gets you. It’s an absurd argument that verges on the sanctimonious.
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u/goatsfloat 47m ago
OP, I'm genuinely curious: How is making this distinction useful for you? This might guide answers a bit. I will say that the question as phrased seems a bit black & white, yet we all (hopefully) understand intersectionality as a given.
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u/Temporays vegan 8+ years 40m ago
I don’t think so. They can’t be angry at everyone else drawing lines for them for whatever reason if they’re just going to do the same thing.
If they say “it doesn’t count cause they’re animals” then what do you say to “it doesn’t count cause they’re women”?
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u/wereallfuckedL vegan 31m ago
No you cannot. And when I said something to that effect + elaborated on reproductive system I got the most downvoted comment on the whole thread, in my ‘safe space’ amongst feminist women who, apart from when it comes to burgers, understand intersectionality fine fucking well. It’s incredibly frustrating. Any dissertation on this subject begins and ends with cognitive dissonance.
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u/FiannaNevra 19h ago
I personally don't think so, but I got kicked off a few spiritual and feminist pages for saying I don't believe anyone can reach higher consciousness if they consume meat and dairy, or that you truely can't be a feminist if you support the diary industry.
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u/garbud4850 vegan 5+ years 54m ago
I mean even Siddhartha ate dairy and meat when he actually ate of course,
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u/Weztinlaar 19h ago
Feminism is about gender equality. If you treat a female cow the same way you’d treat a male cow, then you are still feminist. Granted you don’t generally milk male cows, but it could be argued to be better treatment than going straight to the slaughter house.
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u/ElaineV 18h ago
It’s about equity not equality. But it’s more than that. You can achieve either equality or equity by simply knocking men down rather than lifting women up. Feminists don’t want that. Feminists want a better world for men and women. Because sexism hurts men too.
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u/Weztinlaar 18h ago
Okay, so how does this apply to cows? The point is just that treating both genders of animal equally (whether that’s equally well or equally poorly) still meets the standard of feminism.
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u/ElaineV 18h ago
It doesn’t.
There are waves of feminism and subtypes of feminism, each with different goals and ideas. The commonalities are:
- centering human women
- smashing the patriarchy
- women deserve the same rights and privileges that men have
Feminism is about human women. Feminists may see connections between veganism and feminism. And feminist theory can be applied to veganism. But it is definitely possible to be a feminist and not a vegan. Nearly every feminist in history was not vegan.
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u/Weztinlaar 18h ago
That’s what I was getting at. The OP is claiming that you can’t be a feminist if not vegan. I’m saying that feminism and veganism are unrelated, that feminism applies exclusively to humans, but if you were to extend it to animals then as long as you treat male animals and female animals the same there isn’t really any contradiction with feminism.
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u/rubyroobutterflygodd 19h ago
Male cows don’t get milked, because they don’t make milk? I would absolutely argue it in some sense would be kinder to be slaughtered, rather than live a life getting forcibly impregnated over and over again, your babies ripped from you instantly, until you get too old to make the humans money and then finally after a life of torture and rape, you’re murdered.
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u/Weztinlaar 19h ago
Yes, I was being facetious about milking male cows. I’m just saying feminism doesn’t say you have to treat all living creatures equally, just treat both genders equally. Crucially, it applies only to humans, but if you were to try to apply it more generally, then you’d still be able to exploit female cows as long as you also exploited male cows
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u/01001110901101111 19h ago
They uh, they actually do milk male cows though. Gotta get that cow jizz to continue breeding the slave species.
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u/TheEarthyHearts 17h ago
Feminism concerns itself with human rights, not animal rights, by definition.
Feminism would either have to be expanded to include non-human animals or you're looking for a movement called by a different name..example "ceranevyism"... that encompasses both human and animal.
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u/Both-Reason6023 17h ago
Yes.
And yes is the answer to all of ethical dilemmas starting with “can you truly” because it’s a flawed question. Can you love animals and eat them too? Yes you can. It’s called hypocrisy.
To answer your other questions though. I’m a vegan and feminist for the same reasons. I believe in upholding the bodily autonomy of all sentient beings. Doesn’t mean someone who has the same values when it comes to Homo sapiens will automatically do for other animals.
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u/blackheartden vegan 15+ years 19h ago edited 19h ago
No. Connecting eggs to what goes on in my own body as a woman in ovulation/menstruation is what made me go vegan.
I had really terrible periods when I was younger. Thinking of hens - especially in factory farming where they are pumped with hormones to produce more eggs, and faster - is horrifying. How painful that must be. They literally have shortened lifespans because it is so hard on their bodies. And then their babies are stolen from them. It’s terrible.
“My feminism will be intersectional or it will be bullshit.”
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u/IntrepidRelative8708 vegan 18h ago
To be honest, I guess I was somehow a feminist most of my life (even though, having reached a certain age already, my kind of feminism is not what young feminists today practice) and before going vegan, I never once thought of it in those terms, so I guess that's the case for most non vegan feminists.
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u/Sense-Affectionate 17h ago
I made a sign today for the protest that said- Hands off my our bodies- animals too! Exactly for that reason! We repeatedly rake cows over and over…it’s grotesque.
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u/ItchyNeeSun 14h ago
You do realise that rape is a standard mating practice in the wild right? 😂😂😂😂😂
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u/rubyroobutterflygodd 8h ago
animals also greet each other but sniffing each others asses and often kill their weakest babies, shall we start that too then?? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
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u/Sightburner 10h ago
Feminism is primarily concerned with advocating for the rights and equality of women (particularly human women). Intersectional feminists often argue that true liberation for all requires addressing the exploitation of both women and animals. This doesn't mean that intersectional feminists are all vegans or mainly plant based though. We also have ecofeminism, that links the exploitation of nature by humans and the oppression of women by men.
Some argue that women's liberation and animal liberation are interdependent. Which I find very odd, why are these people ignoring other groups of people that are oppressed?
Anyway yes, you can be a feminist and support the dairy and meat industry, and I don't see veganism as an natural extension of feminism or any other movement that fight oppression.
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u/Aloneinthefart_ 6h ago
This is laughably out of touch, vegans are a riot
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u/rubyroobutterflygodd 6h ago
oh, expand?
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u/Aloneinthefart_ 5h ago
Women aren't animals. They are people. I dont like the meat industry either, but im not gonna have to same regards for a chicken then an actual woman, this is just silly
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u/rubyroobutterflygodd 5h ago
I never said women are animals. I’m saying the way female animals are treated mirrors the same issues feminists fight against; control, exploitation, objectification. It’s not about equating them, it’s about empathy and recognizing a pattern.
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u/Aloneinthefart_ 5h ago
People have there own struggles, you can advocate for women without advocating for a cow
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u/rubyroobutterflygodd 5h ago
of course you can, but my point is that you can’t truely be a feminist if you advocate for women and then support the systems that rape non human females, it’s hypocritical
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u/dsbmblade 4h ago
Yes. I was a feminist before I became vegan.
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u/rubyroobutterflygodd 4h ago
me too, but the more i learnt the more i understood the hypocrisy of it
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u/dsbmblade 4h ago
I understand what you mean. In my personal experience, I went vegan as a teenager, so pretty much as soon as I found out what happens in the agriculture industry. But I don't think my feminism before going vegan was insignificant as it shaped me as a person. It also further widened my beliefs on justice that spread through justice for animals.
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u/Full-Dome vegan activist 19h ago
Strictly speaking feminists must be vegan too. By drinking milk and eating eggs and meat they are contributing to femicides. Only female cows give milk, only female chicken lay eggs.
Also feminism is (or was?) about equality. Not extending compassion to others opressed individuals is being against equality
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u/Gatensio vegan 10+ years 20h ago
Separately. Whenever I see a woman claim that she can comprehend animal suffering because she has suffered oppression from the patriarchy... I can't help but roll my eyes. It's like a teenager saying they can comprehend what jews went through in nazi germany because their parents grounded them.
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u/veganvampirebat vegan 10+ years 20h ago
I mean it depends on said woman’s history, no? There are definitely places in the world where women are treated as property, forcibly impregnated repeatedly, not allowed to leave a small area like the house alone etc.
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u/vintagelove822 19h ago
My belief is that you are describing the entire world. Women are still treated that way everywhere even if we don’t see it or hear about it.
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u/Stock-Letter-5420 19h ago
Yeah, and you as a man know a lot about what it's like to be oppressed by the patriarchy and you are in a position to roll your eyes at a woman about a statement like that, even though you, on the basis of your sex, will never be oppressed like that; so you're rolling your eyes at a statement that you can't even comprehend because that statement stems from an experience that you will never live. What makes you think that you understand animal suffering better than women, comparing them to teenagers and rolling your eyes at them?
The condescencion.
🙄
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u/Mitsuba00 18h ago
I mean tbh Men suffer because of patriarchy too, the system is bad for both of us-
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u/Stock-Letter-5420 18h ago
Definitions of patriarchy :
A social system in which the father is the head of the family.
A family, community, or society based on this system or governed by men.
Dominance of a society by men, or the values that uphold such dominance.
A society in which the oldest male is the leader of the family, or a society controlled by men in which they use their power to their own advantage
Patriarchy is a system in which men have all or most of the power and importance in a society or group.
A patriarchy is a social system in which family systems or entire societies are organized around the idea of father-rule, where males are the primary authority figures.
The systematic domination of women by men in some or all of society’s spheres and institutions
Men suffer because of patriarchy? Cry me a fucking river
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u/Mitsuba00 17h ago
I'm sorry you think that.
Even if i can totally agree Women suffer patriarchy more, which would be kinda weird since this isn't some competition of who suffers more
It affects both, Men are also affected by the same patriarchy because this system wants them to maintain it by creating more guys whitouts emotions, that don't cry, that will feel less if shown any type of "weakness", and that will make fun of other guys who shown any type of "weakness" even if it's silly like crying because a movie or something
Also making them believe they have to provide, have a couple, win more money than their couple, be the huge tall dominant guy. And that's fucking sad
A lot of guys are taught awful things by their parents who really don't know any better since they have been raised the same awful way. Not talking about all guys ofc, just saying, it affects both, and denying this is kinda pretty bad, we shouldn't do such a thing.
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u/Stock-Letter-5420 17h ago
I don't deny that men suffer under patriarchy, I just don't care. Patriarchy has existed for thousands of years. Who is on top with patriarchy? Men. If men suffered that much they would have just overthrowned it. Did they ? No. Their "suffering" is not that great then if they prefer to "suffer" and dominate rather than be equals with women.
It's funny that the only thing that you can think of about men's suffering is that they can't cry. What happens if men actually do cry? They get mocked, maybe? Boo fucking hoo. Tragic.
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u/Mitsuba00 17h ago
I mean it's kinda hard to take down an entire system when you are born in it, raised in it and you are kinda indoctrinated into it, not like everyone is ofc, i'm kinda really not-
Neither have i said they suffer as much, i just said it in the message and also, why you wouldn't care? it affects people, not men, not women, just people.
We should take it down and be equal? Totally. But that isn't easy when there's people who don't care about the other gender's feeling like, oh look! Like some guys do.
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u/Depravedwh0reee 19h ago
You’re not feminist if you support animal cruelty. You’re not feminist if you support procreation. You’re not feminist if you support pornography. Most feminists are posers who only care about issues that impact them personally. Feminism is about liberation.
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u/SpinningJen 18h ago
"feminism is about liberation" and "you're not feminist if you support procreation" are incompatible statements.
A woman isn't liberated if she can't choose whether or not to have children. And refusing to support a woman who has children isn't a feminist action.
Fwiw, I learn more towards antinatalism as a moral preference but those two statements are still contradictory
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u/Depravedwh0reee 18h ago
Turning women into incubators and slaves is the opposite of liberation. Feminism is not about individual choice. just because a woman chooses to do something doesn’t mean that it’s a good choice or a smart or ethical one. We can still hold women accountable for doing bad things. Adoption is the only acceptable way to have children.
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u/Opera_haus_blues 18h ago
lol so you’re adopting the children of those you see as lesser beings? That’ll be healthy!
Women’s bodies having a function (incubation) does not mean their life and humanity must be defined by that function. Incubating a fetus is just one of many things a human body is capable of, just like eating, moving, breathing.
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u/Depravedwh0reee 18h ago
I care about children, not breeders. The children will be well taken care of. I don’t care what happens to evil people.
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u/Opera_haus_blues 18h ago
So what exactly is your issue? You’re fine with children existing, but women are evil for having them, but they’re also tricked into it? Please, I am genuinely stumped here.
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u/Depravedwh0reee 18h ago
When the children are already here, they need to be taken care of obviously. But I’m not OK with intentionally getting pregnant and having children biologically. My problem is that pregnancy is violence against women and procreation is the cause of all suffering and death. You’re literally on a vegan sub. Why on earth are you OK with creating more animal abusers?
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u/Opera_haus_blues 17h ago
I don’t think it’s possible to say pregnancy is worse for a woman than, like, rock climbing. They’re both elective activities than can come with health complications. Literally everything in life has the capacity to cause suffering.
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u/Dazzling_Wash_2370 14h ago
You sound stupid no matter how articulate you type it.
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u/Depravedwh0reee 5h ago
No counterargument? Thought so.
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u/Dazzling_Wash_2370 4h ago
Don’t need a counter argument when you make a stupid comment like “women who get pregnant are just incubators and slaves” that is not a fact it’s a stupid opinion that doesn’t need to be countered.
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u/Depravedwh0reee 5h ago edited 5h ago
Agreeing with everything women do is what’s stupid. Defending industries that trafficking people is stupid. Helping animal Abusers abuse animals is stupid.
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u/SpinningJen 18h ago
"turning women into incubators" Vomit
We're not talking about an individual choice, we're talking about the choices of half the global population. Being child-free should be encouraged. Adoption should be encouraged. People wanting kids should be supported to do so in the best way possible (free health care, community support, appropriate infrastructure). Being gross because most women want kids isn't feminism.
Also, grossly undermining slavery there too. If it's done by choice it's a job. Slavery is not a job
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u/Depravedwh0reee 18h ago
But it isn’t an autonomous choice. People actively try to conceal the truth about pregnancy childbirth, and motherhood in order to get women to go through with it. Consent is supposed to be freely given, revocable, informed, enthusiastic, and specific. Pregnancy childbirth, and motherhood do not meet those requirements. Additionally as I already mentioned just because a woman chooses to do something does not mean that it is smart, healthy, or ethical . Having biological children is not a personal choice because it involves harming others. Considering the fact that you’re on a vegan sub, you should understand it.
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u/SpinningJen 18h ago
Sounds like you need to be advocating for better education. I'm genuinely sorry if your education isn't that good, if you've had to go through it to learn about what it was like that's really not ok and it is a reality for too many people. Like I said, people can be encouraged to be child-free, and a factual non-biased educational can do that.
Fortunately, where I live the sex education is reasonable good and this information isn't something kept. Shocking, people still want to have kids because we are biological entities driven to do so.
You can argue that it's immoral and that you don't like it, but you can't argue that you're for liberty for woman and insist they don't get to choose whether to have kids or not
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u/Depravedwh0reee 17h ago
So women are slaves to their biology? Not autonomous beings? That’s embarrassing as fuck.
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u/SpinningJen 17h ago
Yea, that's what I said. Straw men are embarrassing
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u/Depravedwh0reee 17h ago
You said they put themselves through the pain of procreating because they have biological drives to do so. No critical thinking at all? No consideration of ethics?
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u/Depravedwh0reee 17h ago
Did I insist that they can’t choose what to do? I never said they’re not allowed to. They can do whatever the fuck they want. all I said is that it’s not ethical, it’s not vegan, and it’s not feminist.
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u/Depravedwh0reee 18h ago
I’m pretty sure if a man ripped a woman’s vagina in any other context, it would be considered violence. But if he does it to hold a baby then it’s okay?
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u/SpinningJen 18h ago
You're putting a lot of emphasis on the guys wishes here. I'm talking about women's wants and rights (that whole feminist liberty thing).
But also, yes it's ok. Being ripped isn't inherent to childbirth it's an unintended consequence.
If a woman wants multiple penetration and the last guy in unintentionally rips her that is also ok because true consent is there. Its very unfortunate, but ok...she should get medical assistance, and can decide whether it was worth it or not and whether to do it again or not because her kinks are her own. Fyi, penetration pretty much always causes micro tears, plus high risk of infections and imbalances. If you oppose the idea of any tear risk then your should be morally opposing sex full stop.
However, I saw you discussion very directly insisting that rape victims are at fault for getting pregnant for not preemptively being on hormonal contraceptives in case of said rape. So I'm just gonna back to vomiting at your whole thing and leave you to publicly sharing those regretful comments that will bite your subconscious in 20 years
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u/Depravedwh0reee 18h ago
I already said repeatedly that just because a woman agrees to something does not mean it’s ethical. Micro tears are not comparable to getting stitches in your vagina. It’s not an unintended consequence when it happens to 96% of people who give birth. And you should be on birth control if you don’t wanna get pregnant. Acting like that’s controversial is ridiculous. I don’t know why you’re a vegan sub and claiming to be an anti-natalist while defending breeders and creating more animal abusers.
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u/SpinningJen 17h ago
Not having sex is birth control. Using condoms, diaphragms, or any other contraceptives are birth control.
Telling women that they have a moral responsibility to biologically alter their bodies for the pleasure of violent men is the antithesis of feminism. Acting like you're feminist is ridiculous.
I didn't say I'm antinatalist, I said I lean towards it. I've also grown own of the "philosophy teen" phase and developed better and more nuanced understanding of humans.
Anyway, it's late and you have more cringe to write, so I'm off to bed and will leave you too it.
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u/Depravedwh0reee 17h ago edited 17h ago
It’s unfortunate, but that is the reality. You either prevent pregnancy, end the pregnancy, or give birth. Anyone who thinks that taking a pill is harder than becoming a mother is delusional. Do you think taking pills alters the body, but pregnancy is all rainbows and butterflies? Lmao
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u/Depravedwh0reee 17h ago edited 5h ago
It’s not for the pleasure of violent men, it’s to protect themselves. If you want to carry a rapist baby, go ahead and do that. It’s just dumb as fuck and unethical when it can be avoided.
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u/Depravedwh0reee 18h ago
I will never regret the comments I made. People should use birth control. I was traffic for six fucking years, and even as a child, I knew how to prevent pregnancy. What’s their excuse?
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u/SpinningJen 17h ago
That they don't want sex and aren't obliged to pump themselves with hormones to cater to men's whims. Women don't need an "excuse" to not want sex, or to not want to alter their bodies for men's pleasure.
Again, coming back to my original point...your statements that you support liberty and this are entirely incompatible.
You do not support liberty. You can make utilitarian arguments with this position but not feminist ones.
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u/Depravedwh0reee 17h ago
Letting people do whatever the fuck they want is not liberty. Women should be held accountable when they do unethical things. Causing intentional suffering, while simultaneously upholding the patriarchy is anti-feminist.
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u/Depravedwh0reee 17h ago
Obviously, they’re not obliged to. But they shouldn’t be shocked when something happens.
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u/rubyroobutterflygodd 19h ago
why would you claim to be a feminist and then support the very industries that are oppressing us?
I agree that feminism is about liberation, and true liberation means challenging systems of power that oppress marginalized groups. But when we support industries that profit from exploitation, whether it’s through labor, environmental damage, or perpetuating harmful beauty standards, we can’t claim to be working towards true freedom for all. Feminism isn’t just about personal empowerment; it’s about dismantling systems that harm everyone especially those who are most vulnerable. Supporting industries that uphold these systems only reinforces the very oppression we are trying to fight.
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u/Important_Reason6338 18h ago
In my opinion these are two separate issues, but with both experiencing similar problems. It breaks my heart to know that chickens are often kept awake 24/7 so they lay more eggs. It breaks my heart to know that these beautiful cows are being forcefully impregnated only to have their baby taken from them. Then when they can no longer reproduce they're disposed of. It breaks my heart to know that synthetic HRT meds come from lactating mares. These poor girls are permanently catheterized until they can no longer lactate, then disposed of. Same with veal. Those boys born on a dairy farm are often chained up to something very close so they don't develop muscles and stay tender. To me, this is organized animal abuse. It also breaks my heart to know that after all these years that females, regardless of species, still get the sht end of the stick. BTW I'm vegan too.
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u/Koi-Fruit 19h ago
While I agree with you, we are obviously in an echo chamber currently, and I’d say you should consider the audience with these discussions where possible.
If I was a dairy consuming “feminist” I’d say that non human animals don’t deserve the same rights as we have, they don’t deserve workplace equality, they don’t deserve the same rights as human woman. So you could consider yourself to be a dairy consuming feminist.
Of course, there are specific examples for feminism that you could use as arguments against dairy, such as the strong maternal bond that bovines exhibit, and they clearly suffer when that bond is taken away for the dairy industry.
I think we need to be careful when making these reasonably broad statements so as not to turn people off of the conversation