r/ArtistLounge • u/Opurria • Apr 03 '24
Career Do successful artists 'schmooze' more often than they create?
I don't want to sound cynical; I just want to be more successful, haha. I'm curious about the amount of time successful artists spend making and maintaining 'connections.' For instance, does it occupy a few days a week, or is it more like once a month? Do they spend every day networking, with little time left for creating art? What is the 'right' balance between creating art and being in the right place at the right time?
You can spend 10+ hours a day creating, but then there's hardly any time left to 'sell' this art by hanging with the 'right' people. Alternatively, you could create for 2 hours and then spend time at events and galleries, talking casually about 'this artwork I'm working on'. So, even though you're not 'prolific,' more people become aware of you as an artist.š¤
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u/Seamlesslytango Ink Apr 03 '24
It does sound pretty cynical. Success doesn't come with JUST skill. You need to be likable and work on making connections. If no one knows who you are, who's going to give you an opportunity. "Schmoozing" makes it sound gross, but it's really just maintaining relationships. I don't know why your options are spend 10 hours painting and 0 networking, or 2 hours painting and every other waking hour networking. Just go to events when they pop up, I don't think it's really a hour-count situation.
I can't say I'm super successful, but the more I've been to events, the more connections I've made, and the more commissions/opportunities I've gotten.
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u/Opurria Apr 03 '24
Well, I sound cynical because the truth is, I don't like 90% of the art out there. So, it would require some degree of hypocrisy on my part to be excited about something I don't like. On the other hand, I can see myself liking the artists, so maybe that's the way to go - focusing on the person, not the art, and hopefully, end up liking the art to some degree.š¤
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u/Laurelori Apr 03 '24
Focus on the people and even if you donāt like everything about their art, if you canāt find something to appreciate about most art in your field, youāre not opening yourself up enough to learning new things. Maybe this person has finished work that is not your style, but you like their color ability, or something about their process, or maybe they have a subject matter you can get into. And then maybe you have other things in common other than art. And if you canāt be moderately kind to someone about art that just isnāt to your taste, then thatās a deeper issue with socialising that doesnāt have much to do with your art or networking.
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u/Opurria Apr 03 '24
Well, I have the same issue with movies, and I certainly don't make any, so I don't see how it's a problem with me per se. It's quite simple, really - many movies and pieces of art are mediocre at best, not just according to my taste, but according to the taste of numerous critics. The difference is that movie critics don't attempt to find 'something interesting' in every film. Some movies are fairly objectively terrible, according to 99% of critics and myself. A lot of it is around a 6/10. The criticism is nuanced. However, in the fine art world, strangely, there is no 'bad' art; criticism is exceptionally rare - everything is perceived as good because it explores themes ending with -ity and -ism. Honestly, it's difficult to take it seriously and not view it as a mere echo chamber. The only critical voices are about art created for different audiences, such as art fairs or kitschy sunsets paintings.
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u/Laurelori Apr 03 '24
I donāt really read a lot of movie critics, but most that I have read typically do mention the things that they have found worthwhile in a film - they donāt just say āeh, six out of ten, wouldnāt recommendā and honestly I donāt always agree with them anyway. The interesting thing about judging art or movies or music, is that it is inherently an opinion- usually based on traditional standards. Which can often be boring. They arenāt an absolute truth. You can say āthat figure has an inaccurately drawn handā but that doesnāt make it automatically bad art unless that is the only standard you measure by.
Sorry if Iām being a bit aggressive here, I just see a lot of people who want to be successful by selling to other people, actual humans with interesting perspectives and thoughts, but who arenāt willing to put in any effort or have any curiosity about anyone that they donāt immediately agree with or click with. They āhate small talkā And it kind of annoys me. I donāt want to bare my soul to someone if I havenāt taken a measure of them first, and that takes more time than a first introduction.
Iām probably reading too much into this and projecting a lot on to you so sorry if thatās the case. Iām having a day, Iām sure you know how that is!
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u/Seamlesslytango Ink Apr 04 '24
I just see a lot of people who want to be successful by selling to other people, actual humans with interesting perspectives and thoughts, but who arenāt willing to put in any effort or have any curiosity about anyone that they donāt immediately agree with or click with.
Very well said. Some people act like they're above it all, but still need that support like the rest of us and get mad when they don't get that support.
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u/Laurelori Apr 04 '24
Yeah I mean if your main concern is just your work and only your opinion, and you are determined to keep the delusion of absolute purity of your art, then your expectation should not be for automatic financial success.
I believe in moderation, thereās a happy medium for making creative work that meets your creative needs and being able to reach and connect with an audience. You canāt ignore the second part and just expect it to happen.
Thereās a lot of ways to do it - I have friends who make good money making commercial gaming art or teaching, but they need to do other art work on the side to meet all of their creative needs. Not to say that itās impossible to become financially successful by making your work with zero personal engagement, itās just astronomically unlikely.
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u/intogi Apr 04 '24
I love your attitude. If I was going to buy anyoneās art it would be yours not OPās because you seem more interesting..
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u/Laurelori Apr 04 '24
Aw thanks āŗļø
Iām generally curious about most people and things by default but Iām not always the best at it, I definitely lost my patience on this post lol
At the very least I am almost never bored because thereās always something new to learn about!
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u/Opurria Apr 03 '24
Iām probably reading too much into this and projecting a lot on to you so sorry if thatās the case. Iām having a day, Iām sure you know how that is!
No worries, I'm fine. Hope you have a better rest of your day!
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u/Laurelori Apr 03 '24
Thanks, hope you are having a good one too - may we both have good art weeks :)
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u/fleurdesureau Apr 03 '24
Just focus on the art and artists you like, and attend those events. You don't have to love everything.
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Apr 03 '24
I think you would get different advice, though, if you were considering being an art critic rather than being an artist. Your fellow artists are your peers, however you feel about their work. Even film is a community, and Hollywood is a small world. Directors don't interact with other directors as if they were film critics. They also function as peers. Criticism is a separate space.
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u/Seamlesslytango Ink Apr 04 '24
That's why critics suck. Finding something to like in art or movies or wherever is going to make you happier in general. You'll miss out on a lot of great things if something needs to be perfectly executed for you to have any appreciation for it. I watched this movie called Triangle that had mediocre acting and mediocre dialogue, but the twists and turns of the story were so great I was thinking about it for days. If I shut it off after 10 minutes because the acting wasn't great, I would've missed a great experience. It's not cool or interesting to dislike things.
But, I typed that all before I finished reading this, and I kinda get part of it. It does annoy me a little that a lot of art is maybe not the best looking but gets praise for being ABOUT something. It's especially annoying when everything is about that thing that may be important, but it feels cheap when someone does a mediocre job painting a rainbow heart and saying "It's support for the LGBTQ community". Obviously we all support that group, but that doesn't make the art "good". I see that quite a bit, but hopefully there's enough half-decent art around you that you can say nice things about, and when you encounter art that you don't like, you can either keep your mouth shut, or give a quick "awesome, great job." just to be polite. I don't think that's fake as much as it's just polite.
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u/Theo__n Intermedia / formely editorial illustrator Apr 03 '24
You may not like 90% of art - most people don't - but imo. like/not like is not the most constructive way to engage with art as a practicing artist. As a audience do what you want, but as a person working in something it's better to go deeper beyond subjective value statement. I tend to think of art as a expression of the current time/society through a lens of a person and it's easier to look past the surface like/dislike into themes and how they fit together into wider landscape.
As comparison I don't like all of academic discourse around robots that use artificial intelligence, some I find very not interesting or imo. dead end development like some uses of DP - that doesn't mean they're not a valuable additional opinion on the matter.
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u/Opurria Apr 03 '24
Oh no, I can definitely delve into the details of why I don't appreciate any of those 90%, trust me. š My critique is much more nuanced than a simple like/dislike - I phrased it like that for the sake of brevity and because it's impossible to make a general statement - the reasons vary from piece to piece, as they should.
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u/Theo__n Intermedia / formely editorial illustrator Apr 03 '24
I was more proposing to not think in like/dislike even with well though out reasons as an axis when you engage with art professionally since it rarely adds anything of value to positioning yourself in the art world. You can of course engage in critique but writing insightful critique is pretty hard.
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u/Opurria Apr 03 '24
OK, I get it now! Actually, this is very helpful because you've described well what the current art discourse is and how people seem to participate in it, whether I like it or not (see, I already tried your advice, I think š). Yeah, I can see how it makes my opinions 'smoother' without pretending I like something. It's like standing on the side and commenting in a more detached way instead of insisting on my own ideas about art (even though I still stand by them 100%). Thanks!
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u/Laurelori Apr 03 '24
I have other artist friends and meet their friends that way. Honestly Iāve never thought of it as schmoozing. To me itās barely networking, I just like meeting other people who have similar interests and struggles. Inevitably you meet art directors and other project organisers this way and it definitely can help get jobs.
But IMHO if you just look at it as networking and not creating a community, youāll probably come off as a douche.
A lot is done online, but the most effective ways Iāve built friendships and community is including periodic IRL interactions at shows and conventions. Itās harder for me to connect with people purely online.
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Apr 03 '24
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u/fleurdesureau Apr 03 '24
In my experience it's almost always other artists (friends) who facilitate introductions with curators, gallerists and collectors.
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u/Laurelori Apr 03 '24
Agreed. Iām not successful by any means, Iāve had to maintain a day job for health insurance reasons which really limits me, but all the friends I have who are extremely successful have done it by cultivating relationships and friendships along with their skills. Or they got lucky financially and self-funded.
Even though Iām not full time, in the limited time I can spend, I meet new curators and art directors every year with just a few weekend conventions. Iām not besties with them right away or anything and its unlikely they would just hand me a job because a friend introduced us once - but in 5 years our meeting through friends and moving in the same circles and getting to know each other probably will make a difference when they are looking to hire, or if I am looking to recommend someone else to them.
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u/Theo__n Intermedia / formely editorial illustrator Apr 03 '24 edited Apr 03 '24
Most areas I found taking part in open calls does more for people to become aware of your art than attending exhibitions, the later are better for finding collab partners and just generally being social.
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u/laseluuu Apr 03 '24
this is the route I took, and got my work in a couple of exhibitions - small ones, mind, but still.
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u/Theo__n Intermedia / formely editorial illustrator Apr 03 '24
Congrats. I had some success even with big international group ones that have a lot of artists, but of course that was few time and I sent far more applications. So it's def. do good work but also numbers game. Met super cool people.
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Apr 03 '24
If thereās anything I learned from successful women in business net worth = network. And I applied it to my own life and it helps. You are a smart individual for realizing this :) youāll go far.
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u/penzen Apr 03 '24
Short answer: Yes. The most successful artists I met while working at museums are all extremely good at networking and marketing and invest at least as much time into that as in creating their art. We are indeed talking about a few days per week. On the other hand, the most talented and interesting artists I know all have other day jobs because they can't sell themselves at all. Unfair but that is unfortunately how it works.
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u/UnexaminedLifeOfMine Apr 03 '24
Itās so sad that the most talented people I know just work in a vacuum. And the mediocre artists who are extroverts get ahead for the most part.
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u/Opurria Apr 03 '24
Do you have any advice for the miserable second group? Is it a matter of being more extroverted, being able to chit-chat, and talking about your ideas to different types of people? Is it about cracking jokes or, on the contrary, being serious? Or is it about being good-looking and having charisma? š¤
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u/chasethesunlight Apr 03 '24
It's about being an active member of the community. The best way to do that really depends on what you, specifically, have to offer. That could be being outgoing and personable and genuinely interested in other people, and therefore fun to be around. It could be being super reliable and helpful. It could be being really good at connecting people to each other. It could be logistical/planning prowess for getting shows/events off the ground. It could be access to infrastructure or powerful connections.
You seem to be thinking of networking/schmoozing/whatever you want to call it as steps you have to take in order to get something of value out of people, but professional relationships are two way streets just like personal ones are. If you're just hanging around trying to take and putting nothing in, everyone can tell, and no one will work with you. They're not vending machines, you can't just go through the right motions and get an art career out.
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u/noisemonsters Apr 03 '24
Iād say making art for 2 hours a day can allow you to be extremely prolific. Most artists have separate jobs and would not be able to create for 10 hours a day (sounds like road to burnout anyway). One of the most prolific painters I know only paints for one hour every day.
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u/fleurdesureau Apr 03 '24 edited Apr 03 '24
There's no one way to succeed but in my experience the more people you know, the more likely someone is to give you an opportunity. Even if you make the best, most interesting work in the world, if you are antisocial, if no one knows you, if no people can vouch for you, nobody will offer you an opportunity. If you are known in your local community as social, responsible, supportive, and easy to get along with, more opportunities will come. It's important to build a network of other artists and to support them by going to their shows. If you are honest and genuine about it they will support you too.
Another thing about working with galleries is that it's a two way street. It's not productive to sit around and wait to be discovered. It's better to show genuine interest in galleries whose shows you enjoy, to support the gallery by going to events, and to ask thoughtful questions about the work.
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u/ColonelWeird100 Apr 03 '24
Iāve been making a living from my work for the last fifteen years and I do almost no networking or schmoozing or maintaining connections! I concentrate on making the best work I can and rely on that to bring the rest. Itās worked.
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u/zeezle Apr 03 '24 edited Apr 03 '24
I guess that depends entirely on your metric for 'successful' and specifically the type of art you're focusing on.
I am not a professional artist myself, just a serious hobbyist. But I know a few who I would consider successful. Two of them work in the AAA games industry and it's more like a normal corporate job. There's some networking every so often, they attend big expos/conventions a couple times a year (and have fun at them), but they're not attending gallery openings and galas or anything.
One of them got his start by doing an industrial CAD & 3D modeling program at a community college, then working for a company that manufactured HVAC systems doing technical diagrams and models. That's basically the opposite of schmoozing at high-end art galleries but was a fantastic base of experience for working on art in machinery-heavy sci-fi video games. Sure there's networking like in any industry but he's not part of "the scene". He's also now an art director making well into six figures even though I guarantee you've never heard of him, he has almost no social media presence, and isn't "famous". Does making $200k a year from an art job working from home count as successful if there's no social media fawning, fame, or wild fortunes (just a steady high salary) in it? But again, totally different type of art and type of career than a fine art gallery artist would be going for.
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u/Pale-Attorney7474 Apr 03 '24
Short answer, yes.
I know artists who produce the most awful art (both in my personal opinion and looking at their skill objectively) and they spend so much time talking to "the right people" that these people become convinced they must know what they're talking about and think buying their art is a good investment. These artists are successful because of it. You have to be able to sell yourself, not just your talent. Which is something I can't really do.
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u/Opurria Apr 03 '24
But how does one talk incessantly about their art? Do they have elaborate, lengthy 'statements' on how their art connects to ten different concepts, spanning political, environmental, and sociological issues? š¤
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u/Pale-Attorney7474 Apr 03 '24
Essentially, yes. This is all art school taught me. How to spout bs about my art to make it seem deep.
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u/Opurria Apr 03 '24
Is being too self-aware of how ridiculous it sounds (esp to people outside the art community) the reason you avoid doing it? š
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u/intogi Apr 04 '24
If youāve really thought deeply about why you do what you do and are genuine, these types of questions become second nature after a while.
I think you are new to the art world, keep developing yourself as an artist and your skills, if you have something special to offer people will start noticing you.
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u/Opurria Apr 04 '24 edited Apr 04 '24
The thing is, I don't believe art can solve these problems. I don't remember it ever changing anything significant. To me, making art about these issues feels self-aggrandizing, condescending, and exploitative towards those who are genuinely impacted by these problems and have to coexist with them. If you want to change the world, if you're so bothered by these issues, consider doing something other than art, and you'll have a 10x better chance to make a positive change. What artists often do is fetishize these problems; instead of seeking practical solutions, they 'deconstruct' everything to fit their artistic vision. And, frankly, they become basic propagandists - if the only way for them to survive is to get funding from organizations, they become a mouthpiece for the benefit of said organization. Obviously, that's not always the case - many of them are genuinely convinced they will change the world, one brush stroke at a time. š¤·āāļø
Don't get me wrong - you can absolutely have sophisticated ideas and be influenced by various issues. But buying into your own bs to the extent of believing you're profoundly empathetic and actively changing the world (when, in reality, only a very small group of art enthusiasts are interested in what youāre doing) is just too much for me.
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u/intogi Apr 05 '24
I agree that humility is very important to an artist. I think if you lose that you start to detach from the people you are making are for. Even if you have an art practice for your own personal and spiritual development. The paradoxes you find between your purpose and itās futility are the exciting questions.
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u/itsPomy Apr 03 '24
Really depends on how you mean by success.
If you mean like the "Le Big Artist On Le Social Media" that stuff is a nonstop grind and involves creating the right content for the right group. Or having folks to help support you either financial or managing your social presence.
If you mean they've successfully gotten into local galleries or built up a decent business? They probably have a much better deal in terms of time/energy management, but it does still require to talk to people and network.
'
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Apr 03 '24
Yes and knowing the right people.
I came across this popular artist / creator on social media. Sheās got a huge followingā¦ and show cases videos of just like 2-3 paintings?! Which tells me that sheās not really creating but is able to create good videos and engagement.
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u/Ok-Wish930 Apr 03 '24
Keep putting those 10 hour days and the events and galleries will come to you when your product is good enough. Have more shows than I know what to do now, started out doing 10-12 hour days painting and living on my broke down car in an abandoned parking lot.
Eventually you get past the stage where people look at your art like āthese are goodā and they just stand in awe.
I started with commissions/ home murals, transitioned to Public murals, met someone who ran all the parks and recreation for the city, including all the art.
Keep grinding, keep pushing, itās a long way to the top
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u/Opurria Apr 03 '24
Wow, now that's an inspiring story! Congrats!
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u/Ok-Wish930 Apr 03 '24
A lot of my connections came from giving back, I went downtown and gave painting lessons away, drawings, took donations for teaching kids art. Beyond you being amazing people love getting behind people who they see helping the community. Some days I made negative money but it wasnāt about the money for me, but about inspiring the next generation of artists.
Even before paint I used to do chalk drawings all around town, trust me when they see Raphaelās sketches in chalk.. theyāll talk and wonder who the heck is that good around here!? Cultivate mystery
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Apr 03 '24
When you were living out of your car, where did you paint? In the parking lot? The cops or other folk didn't harass you?
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u/Ok-Wish930 Apr 03 '24
Where ever I could, spent many hours using the broke down carās hood as an easel, pretty much was rainbow by the time I was done. Hung up the pictures on the back hood windows for people walking by to see/ buy.
I found as much support as I did harassment.
Cops visited me maybe twice or three times over the years, I just told them what was up.
I remember the officer just looking at me like āwhy do they keep calling us if all youāre doing is just painting?ā Me: I have no clue bro I assume they hate art.
After the 2nd or 3rd time they just stopped coming. lol last time I had an officer came out, he wanted to know if I saw anything because he knows I live out here and someone on my street has their house robbed.
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Apr 04 '24
Congratulations on overcoming the struggle, or at least in regards to living out of your car. I had a painter friend who was living out of his car too until he got a painting gig through a Craigslist ad. He's been working for that client ever since, and has his own apartment. I have so many questions about your story, but I don't want to pry too much.
Do you have your art somewhere online?
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u/DMcGConcept Apr 04 '24
Thereās a balance of networking and creating in the professional field - a lot of students I work often mistake ānetworkingā as a bit of a cheat to getting hired or selling work but the reality is that most people want to hire/buy from artists who they get along with and have a strong personal relationship with.
You make art for people so enjoy spending time with those same people
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u/evasandor Apr 05 '24
Iām reminded of a poem I read on a restaurant placemat as a child:
He who has a thing to sell,
and whispers it into a well,
is not so apt to get the dollars
as he who climbs a tree and hollers.
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u/oil_painting_guy Apr 03 '24
It's extremely sad that a lot of the most financially successful artists are absolutely some of the worst skilled artists on the face of the planet.
A lot of the modern art that is appreciated by collectors, curators, museums and critics is so bad that art itself has become a joke.
It's insane because there are so many talented artists out there who are not making the amount of money that they deserve.
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Apr 03 '24
You make real connections you network out of by product of being a genuine person who likes to keep in touch with people that lighten a fire in their soul
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u/MadeByHideoForHideo Apr 04 '24
Got a pro tip for you for "success" in life. It's not about what you know, it's about who you know.
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u/pileofdeadninjas Apr 03 '24
It's more networking than schmoozing. You don't have to go to events and talk about "this artwork I'm doing," to let them know you're an artist. I don't think I've ever really ran into an artist and had them say something like that. Usually it'll come up more naturally or I'll just ask if they're an artist too. You just need to show up to shows you're in. Go to openings for people you know. And put your work out there alongside theirs. There's no formula for me. I do art every day and I have maybe 2 or 3 events to go to each month where I meet people. Art is the priority, I do it daily, but with an art career, it is about creating a network because in the end, who you know can open a lot of doors.