I'm feeling spicy and I want to hear some of your hot takes about the game. Perhaps, I'll see the game from a fresh perspective and/or learn something new.
There's no limit to the hot takes you can share.
I'll go first.
Despite Araj's negative reputation, I think she's one of the best merchants in the game. In act 2, she carries the risky ring and the ring of free action, which is already amazing. But she also offers unique elixirs in act 2. In act 3, she sells sanguine explosives, which is basically a level 4 fireball that you can buy for less than 20 gold. Getting the unstable blood condition from her in act 3, can also be powerful if you build around it. The +2 to strength is super powerful if you're willing to torture Astarion, but even without that, she's still an amazing npc. She's a little pushy with Astarion, but she ultimately accepts his no. So, I don't stay mad at her.
I don't think completing a "good run" automatically makes your character good aligned. Basing your decisions around not making your favorite npcs sad is not a sound moral compass. I think there are more morally neutral people out there than people are willing to admit. It isn't a bad thing to be morally neutral. Jaheira is canonically true neutral in the older games, and people love her.
Builds which require loads of set-up, really specific gear combinations that force you to sacrifice useful abilities, and can only deliver their intended damage output once or twice per long rest are not fun.
The game is very big but was meant to be bigger. Many unfinished things in game (craft, puzzles, plots...) show the exhaustion of the team and it really makes me sad sometimes. For instance the weapon you found under Cazador's prison, I can't go there now because it's just a pile of "unfinished stuff but hey here's the reward anyway". I dunno, it's depressing.
As best I can figure, there was maybe supposed to be an entire connected sub-layer to Cazador's palace -- the deep crypt with the casket + Pelorsun Blade, and also the unfinished sliding-block puzzle(?) with fire-spitting gargoyle statues (beneath the werewolf room), and maybe the outer platforms + doors abutting the big Cazador-fight chamber -- the remaining scenery seems like there might have been a secondary path to access the Cazador-fight-chamber, either via the hanging cages, or the side platform entrances.
That little alcove with the "Scroll of all previous Vampire Lords" is also strangely orphaned, and might have been connected. Perhaps the (similarly-unfinished) attic was meant to contain a key or clue.
My tinfoil hat theory is that it was supposed to be 2 games, but Larian got fed up with wotc and instead just extended the game into what it is now.
The game was at one point in ea unexpectedly extended from level 8 (or 10?) to 12.
Larian is completely opposed to dlc or a sequel. Not the usual pr “anything could happen” you might typically get from such a collaboration. No, a very clear “we’re done with this ip forever”.
The end of act 2 could work as an end to bg3 leading into bg4. You face off against the big name that’s been talked up the whole game, you discover the secret weapon that’s been talked up the whole game, you have an epic showdown with an avatar of a god.
Then act 3 feels more slapdash than the rest of the game. Bugs, rushed storylines, unfinished quests, weird pacing, etc. A lot of games are like this though, so it’s not really meaningful by itself.
Anyway, like you say, it’s sad. Sad that wotc seems to horribly manage such a beloved ip. Sad that something so great could have been even better.
While I can see that in some ways, like you said a lot of games tend to do what they did with act 3. Specifically divinity 2, made by Larian as well, is almost identical with the end issues.
Was going to say this is pretty typical Larian. Huge ambition for their final acts that they have to scramble to make work and suffer a bit because of it.
Tbf, Larian have always been a bit anti-DLC. They haven't released a paid DLC/expansion since they were working with publishers who were dictating a lot of what they could do. Since ditching publishers, they've always pushed updates, including large overhauls like the EE and DE for DOS1&2, for free.
Swen Vincke has said in a number of interviews he believes that if a player buys a game, they should get the full story. They shouldn't be required to pay more to finish it. That's also why we get stuff like the new ending cinematics, because where there is something that's missing, he seems to feel compelled to address it.
So it's really unlikely this was ever intended to be two games. That they even considered making a DLC for BG3, and had apparently started development, was a departure from previous statements, including those about BG3 pre-EA.
And I know a lot of people like to blame WotC and Hasbro for Larian ceasing D&D games, but I think there's a reason that people tend to overlook - Larian created Astarion, Shadowheart, etc. but now they don't own them. Hasbro can milk those characters for every penny for years and years to come, and Larian can't. If you know you're capable of creating characters that resonated with so many people, why would you want to be doing it for somebody else?
I could potentially see an Act 3 DLC with WOTC being amiable, but definitely not another full game. Leaving the game with expectations of another wouldn't work well with the story that was crafted.
I think that's natural for a lot of creative works. Think about how many authors make massive changes and edits to their work or how many TV shows and movies have tons of scenes cut for time or because they just didn't work.
Not every planned thing works out: maybe it's too similar to another part of the game, maybe it's buggy and fixing it would be more effort than it's worth for a minor thing, maybe it just didn't end up as cool as the creator imagined it.
I don't think it's depressing that they pruned the game into what they wanted it to be. They also clearly care about the game, considering we are still waiting on a patch a year and a half after release, and some of the other ones have made pretty significant changes.
That said, I really wish they had included the upper city.
Every halfling male NPC has the same face and it's very distracting. My head canon is it's all just Aron from the grove running around with different disguises.
I do find the lack of NPC faces to be a bit jarring, especially the masc characters since they don't get as much makeup and hair variety to make them look unique, and like, can halflings have beards I don't even know? If so they're underutilised. The idea that Aron is just running around playing pretend is so funny to me 😆
The Emperor is extremely irritating and I wish you could cast silence on him and it stuck. His story is not one of trauma or abuse or a hard life, it’s one of an adventurer who got bored and got turned into a mind flayer. I grew to hate his character after meeting Ansur
The emperor gives me major ick. The first time I played I leaned into it but act 3 recoloured every interaction on replays to like... controlling niceguy vibes? The biggest of icks, I'm always mean to him now 😂
There are too many companions available in a good run. I’m currently on my 7th play through and I’ve maybe used Halsin and Minsc a combined 15 minutes and Jaheria 2-3 hours tops. Being able to respec builds for cheap (or free via mods) means less interesting personalities get left my the wayside.
Conversely, if you do an evil run you only have a few options as multiple companions will want nothing to do with you. Minthara was perfect as an evil only companion. Getting her on a good run by essentially using game exploits was fine. Larian’s decision to make her able to be recruited on a good run was a mistake IMO. There needs to be a few companions that are only available on evil runs.
For me it’s less about their personality and more about how late they join. I love Halsin, Minsc and especially Jaheira but by the time they join I feel like I already have my go to people and really only bring them along on quests that are relevant to them (which for Halsin and Minsc is only like one quest by the time they join you officially)
Nope. You can use all of the companions if you want, and if you want to add even more chaos, you can still cast summons. I think there's an advanced option where you can limit the amount of people entering a fight (but not sure), but I want all of my companions to be a part of it. The only limitation is during long rest, in which you have to make your numbers go back down to 4, but there's an auto option to do that. You can easily steamroll battles, but there are other mods that can help offset the extra party members. I personally enjoy it and it is a good way to learn about other classes if you decide to respect your party members.
People think playing honour's mode is some right of passage, when in reality is incredibly boring and just flat out not fun to lose a whole run to a couple unlucky rolls.
I'm not losing 80+ hours of gameplay because I rolled a few 1s on conversations or something.
And inb4 " Well actually if you meta game and plan ahead and have spread sheets and study the game it's actually very easy 🤓🤓🤓"
Mofucker I'm playing a game ti relax, not get a degree in it
I mean you can literally just keep playing if you die, so it's less 'lose 80+ hours of gameplay' and more 'lose access to unlocking shiny dice that do literally nothing'
you can always just play a custom run and make it honor mode rule set. This allows you to get the cool challenge and added mechanics and still be able to save. I have the gold dice and i dont even use it i only play honor for the challenge and the added mechanics.
The developers flanderized a fair few of the characters and sanded down the rough edges, to the detriment of the game in a small way I feel. Ascended Astarion is a very bad basically irredeemable person, Shadowhesrt should be imho a worse person while still a Shar worshipper, and such like.
The reveal that she's a Shar worshipper really falls flat, especially if you don't know much about the Forgotten Realms.
It's even worse if you rescue her from the Nauteloid and talk your way past the fight at the Withers crypt entrance since her approval gets high enough to tell you what feels like two minutes after meeting her. Feels very casual, lol, like "Oh, by the way, I worship Moon Satan. No biggie."
Agreed, I think they could have inserted something before that moment to help show what being a Shar worshipper means. Obviously we get a good look in later acts, but in the moment it falls very flat.
Ffs, of course ascended Astarion is irredeemable. He literally stripped himself of his humanity! You can't have a plot arc culminate in the murder of 7000 people then expect them to be redeemed at the end!
Ketheric Thorm is overrated as villain. He's incredibly common- man faces perfectly normal hardship- and decides he hates his God for not kowtowing to his wishes. He still had his wealth, the people he led, and the love and adoration of those around him. If we had gotten a full story of his decent into madness, okay. If we had clearly gotten the story of the gods all refusing to raise his daughter, okay. But all we see is that he was a old wealthy elf who lost his wife and daughter, and decided to burn the world for it. It's a story we see so often that I can't be moved by it anymore. It doesn't even make sense in the Forgotten Realms because resurrection magic is so common. The atmosphere of Act 2 is great, I love Isobel and Aylin, I would have loved to know more about Melodia, but all that makes Ketheric Thorm compelling his his voice actor.
The companions are compelling characters but I would not want to actually play a real game of DnD with them save for Wyll, Gale and Halsin. The others would really need a good session zero for me to feel safe playing with them as a table. Astarion's player would suck all the air out of the room trying to be the Main Character, as well as Shadowheart.
The cast has done multiple live D&D sessions, mostly at cons. It's generally Astarion, Lae'zel, Wyll, and Karlach.
They are AMAZING, and Astarion is a delight to watch live. Neil is also the only one who actually played before the game, and he's very helpful to his fellow players. He's a delightful heel, and in one session they actually got Astarion the character to feel his real feelings for a bit.
There's one that has the whole cast, which is where we get Shadowheart being "God's favorite princess" because that's what her actor referred to her as. She temporarily adopted an imp named Bing-Bong. 😆 Her and Lae'zel played off each other the whole time, to great effect, as did Astarion and Gale.
Sam Béart also has played DnD. They mentioned in a few interviews they had to drop out of their group because BG3 recording sessions messed with their player schedule.
However, Devora Wilde absolutely has not and in those sessions it shows, but she’s clearly having fun
I don’t believe Theo Solomon has either, but seeing him play Wyll in these games has actually made me like him more as an actor because he gives the character some more personality rather than TM Hero
Theo's live-play stream (which is sparse/intermittent) is absolutely hilarious -- he starts as a monk, and sees a magic hand-axe in the Druid merchant's inventory, which he absolutely drools over, so he sells most of his party's posessions (including weapons) to buy the hand-axe. Then he gets pasted for several fights, either TPK-wiping or just narrowly surviving, until someone finally points out to him that his partymembers don't have weapons (and, in some cases, no armor), and are feebly trying to fist-punch enemies.
As of the last time I watched, no one had pointed out that said hand-axe probably wasn't a very good choice for a monk; ironically, this is the one character who *would\* be better served by bare-handed punching attacks.
Overall, a very good, humble, learning-to-play-D&D experience.
The cast didn't write the characters, and live plays aren't dnd; they're a show in which people use playing dnd to entertain an audience. Those are incredibly different things.
I've played in games where my character was pregenerated. There used to be box adventures like that. And yeah, watching actors play D&D is something people enjoy. They are having fun, the DM is having fun, the audience is having fun. There's no resson to look down your nose at it. If that's not your thing, that's fine too, but you don't need to shit on it.
To me that’s the point, that no matter how much you build it up and change yourself and chase power to become a god, you ultimately are still just a dude
For me is that it's attempting to skirt around a number of tropes but people seem to think he's sympathetic. He's not. He's just another guy who gets pricked and shows that he's an abuser. The one thing we get right is that we see Isobel and Aylin survive him.
Players with Main Character Energy are absolutely fine imo. As a hopeful future-DM I hope to god at least one of my players will get on my level and help me drive the story. AS LONG AS they also make an effort to draw the other players in as well. A "big" character who shares their energy among the group is great. A big character who makes the entire game about them would be hell.
Eh, said player didn't seem to understand that it's the RP with other players that makes things work. That you have to show an interest in them for the others to show an interest back. Being all about your own story and not caring for the others really sabotages your game.
That's such a shame. Drawing people into your story and becoming part of theirs is one of the best things about dnd. This is my fourth campaign and the first time playing a "big" personality (stand-offish, snarky bard for two campaigns and a very meek, gentle cleric for one) and a huge part of the fun this time around has been TALKING more and asking the other characters way more questions than my bard would have cared to ask, while my cleric was very stay-in-my-lane, dont-be-rude. My current guy will just straight up be like "so what's with the tattoo?" Etc and it's so much more freeing lol
This player was in my first campaign, and I let that one stick around a little too long. I also think that this player was fudging dice, and wanted long RP just for them with just the DM. Eventually I had to kick them. It was a bummer. And yeah, I have a bit of a problem with my current group is that they aren't poking each other much, but that's because they're sticking to the plot a lot. Though we're working on it.
They'll get there! Encouraging role-playing during downtime (setting up / being at camp, encouraging chatter at taverns etc) might help agitate the first few threads of backstory conversation! Or sometimes, at a given moment, just pause and ask a player what their character is thinking / feeling right now. It might give another character an opening.
"Oh, Aaron is thinking about his mother. He's wondering how she's doing without him" might lead another player to go "Jayne notices that Aaron looks pensive, so she'll go up to him and say 'hey, you alright? You're lost in thought', which might THEN invite Aaron to divulge that he's worried about his sick mother - he's been adventuring seeking a cure for her rare illness. Now Jayne is involved in his personal quest too. OR, he might get cagey and defensive, causing Jayne to be curious or even suspicious of him. Put 'em in the hot seat!
Minthara is (at least on a good run) kind of lackluster as a companion imo. I haven’t done an evil run yet but I had her on one of my good runs (knocked her out at goblin camp instead of killing her) and she was just kind of there? I like her personality but she doesn’t have a companion quest and even after she gets protection from the tadpole she’s still kind of evil >! She’s always like “wow I can’t believe the absolute made me do all that terrible stuff. Anyway let’s use the netherbrain to take over the world !<. I wish she had more of an arc or maybe she does and I just missed it- it was hard to get approval with her because she’s literally evil
Wulbren should have been a companion. People like to hate on him (fair) but imo he’s not much worse than some of the companions at the start (Lae’zel, Minthara and Astarion are pretty brutal/harsh). I think he’d be great on a good run if he got a redemption arc or on an evil run if you let him lean in to hating the Gondians. I also think there should have been more evil companions (Sazza and Z’rell come to mind off the top of my head)
Karlach is a bad character with a good personality which is why people like her. When they cut her storyline instead of piggybacking off Dark Urge and Wyll's stories they should have just downgraded her from origin to Minthara's "good" counterpart. Her writing has too many holes in it and seems rushed. Having a more simple story that was better written would have been better.
The game has too many skills that are useless. Survival, Animal Handling, Medicine, Survival, and Nature due basically nothing and there kind of no reason these shouldn't come up.
I'm with you. Karlach never "grabbed" me like the rest of the Origin Companions. I spent more time thinking about Wyll's lot in life, how he looks up to his Father way too much enough, how he wants to sacrifice his soul just so he'll live another few decades, or the misery of how it must feel to be expelled from his home, and he's an absolute boy scout.
Karlach is never tempted to continue the cycle of abuse and her rage is always justified. She has an openness to use Soul Coins, using up human souls just for a small power boost doesn't sit right with me and it's not really acknowledged. She doesn't come off as extraverted and fun in game as the fandom wants her to be. Karlach really didn't hit for me.
Barcus doesn't work as a companion, he doesn't fit in combat and gets captured too much. Rather than Barcus, Philomeen should be a companion. She has the stats, and willingness to fight too.
My hot take is that I didn’t like the constant sense of urgency to move along due to the ultra high stakes of the main story line from the very beginning. It made exploring, and doing side quests feel like I was wasting time. I left a lot of side stuff in act one undone because of that sense of urgency, and I didn’t know I couldn’t go back until it was too late. I also played it immediately after Cyberpunk 2077, which had the same kind of thing going on.
My hot take is that people who complain about the sense of urgency didn't pay close enough attention. The game signposts you to Nettie who quickly tells you that there's something weird going on and there are lots of people who are infected but not changing.
Nettie is also one of the triggers for Raphael to turn up who literally tells you "shop around. Beg, borrow, and steal. Exhaust every possibility until none are left" (ie. play the game and do everything you want to do) and that he'll be there when your luck runs out, effectively turning himself into the canary in the coalmine.
And if that's not enough, even your two resident "experts", Gale and Lae'zel can start deducing something is weird. Ethel can. Omeluum can. Act 1 is full of people saying "You're not turning any time soon".
And then to top it all off, the Goblin Camp, which is neutra towards youl, triggers the Dream Visitor who flat out tells you they're protecting you and you won't become a mind flayer.
Even people who make it difficult on themselves by refusing to take long rests should be getting a few of these neon-accented clues.
It made it feel like I had to get to the crèche immediately, so I tried to go immediately, and it made me so frustrated that it was telling me that I should be a higher level. Like why push this specific thing so hard if it’s gonna be awhile before I can do if
They really could have done a better job with that. A sense of urgency can be a great thing in a game, but once you find out the game is just lying to you, it drains all the tension.
A long rest limit would be awesome, like the turn limit on some battles. Make it so you can add a couple of extra days each time you go through one of the potential cures (Nettie, Ethel, Priestess Gut, the Zaith'isk, etc.)
People assign their own moral compass to other real people playing the game in a way they wouldn’t. Like it doesn’t automatically make you a good person irl because you always play the hero and get everyone’s good ending. Just like it wouldn’t make you terrible irl if you play the villain and enable your companions to become their worst selves. At the end of the day it’s just a game and all the infighting about what’s cannon and what makes you good or bad or whatever sours the community imo.
Fixing Karlach completely where she doesn't have to return to the hells would be amazing. Or.. if you can't fix her, at least move into the house of hope (cause I always clear it ) with her and Hope. :)
Being able to deceive the Emperor would be nice.. I mean I passed the roll for him not to get the details of my chat with Raphael, but two seconds later down in the lobby he learns I have the hammer and plan to free Orpheus and is pissed about it.
if wizards of the coast wasn't so greedy we would get more sequels of equal love and dedication from Larian, but sadly they're greedy shits and Larian will never work for them again :/
Evil playthrough would be awesome with some goblin /hobgoblin or other evil races. Raising the druid grove isn't that great if you're gonna lose two of your characters :/ (Karlach and wyll)
Being able to deceive the Emperor would be nice.. I mean I passed the roll for him not to get the details of my chat with Raphael, but two seconds later down in the lobby he learns I have the hammer and plan to free Orpheus and is pissed about it.
Yeah, he's still listening in, lol. I didn't wind up sticking with it, but it's absolutely my favourite progression of that scene because I literally forgot I'd deceived him in the seconds it took to go downstairs and talk to Voss.
What you have to do is not mention it after you pass the deception check! (Eta: I don't actually know if Lae'zel mentions it to him no matter what you say.)
Durge's Narration and story and the whole Bhaal cult are insufferably edgy. Everyone starting with Orin and ending with disembodied voices in the temple talk a lot about blood-violence-sacrifices, ripping someone's guts out and profane assassinations or whatever, and I guess it does the job because it kills me with how boring it all is. It doesn't do anything for me, and I wish internet edgelords who love it would stop being dicks and stop saying that no other story matters when Durge exists.
I agree to a certain extent. the game feels like it wants to be telling a story about being tempted into evil gradually, but the evil in the game is so insanely over the top that it feels ridiculous to not be immediately repulsed by it.
I've been told that BG3 made the whole Bhaal worship way over the top in comparison to BG1/2 where it was more subtle and unsettling, so apparently it's just A Choice, and the "Previous games were about Bhaalspawn, so deal with it" argument doesn't justify it much.
Most of my hot takes are disliking characters, honestly.
I don't understand the appeal of Alfira at all and wouldn't want her as a companion. Yes, a bard companion would have been neat, but she's so boring and one-note. I feel objectively bad about killing her as Durge, since it's still the death of an innocent, but it doesn't feel like you lose out on much otherwise.
I also don't understand the love for Karlach. I've forced myself to keep her around in 2 of my 8 completed playthroughs and just can't anymore. Her post-Gortash and docks scenes makes sense in the context of her character, but they feel like they take 5 years to get through and come across as disruptive to me.
And Orin. Her VA did a good job, but by god, I cannot stand how Orin's speech patterns and mannerisms are written. She also just comes across as a weak and unconvincing villain. It works on a Durge run, where she feels like the whiny younger cousin who wants what they can't have but isn't actually qualified for it, but in a Tav or other origin run, it doesn't feel right at all.
Honorable mentions are Dame Aylin, Minsc, and the resolution of Rolan's story. Someone else mentioned Aylin being boring, and I absolutely agree. She had so much potential, but it really is wasted in favor of her being lumped entirely with Isobel. Minsc feels too childish for me, and (no hate to Matt Mercer) I hate his voice. Boo is also not interesting and comes across as forced in terms of "cuteness." Lastly, what do you mean I get to dispatch a pathetic wizard with barely any help from Rolan and he gets a whole wizard tower to himself afterwards? No, sweetie, I didn't kill Lorroakan for you to get the tower. I have as much of a right to it as you do.
I think Orin being a temu villain makes perfect sense, as she knows she was never the first choice, but it wasn't written well. I think they could have played up her all consuming self doubt much better, and it would have fleshed (heh) out her character a lot better.
Facts bro, the less grey a character is the less deep and interesting they are. Orin and Karlach are my two least favorite characters in the game. Karlach is never wrong, always strives to do the right thing, and hates the bad guys. There’s not a lot more there. Orin loves murder and killing.
Karlach is chaotic good... I don't think she's "never wrong" and "always tries to do the right thing." If you go to the last light inn in Act 2 and talk to that tief kid who sells stuff (Mattis?) she gives him advice on how to steal/scam better. You can call her out on it, and she'll tell you to fuck off and that any advice she gives a tief kid is between her and them. She's prone to emotional outbursts and burns down a whole building because of it. She's actually got kind of a sinister/vengeful side and can get tunnel-visioned when thinking of revenge, like openly wanting to attack Gortash as soon as she sees him (even though it would be a losing fight and a terrible move). I think she's a great example of chaotic good.
I don’t understand why someone would play the non-single player version of this game. I’m sorry but can someone summarize the appeal? Also how do the romance scenes work in multiplayer mode? are your friends just awkwardly watching you get railed by a bear?
I have two campaigns with two friends running. The appeal is talking to each other while playing, laughing about silly things like fucked up rolls or when a fight goes bad or good. Planning some stuff, especially on higher difficulty and discussing things, plus yk, just spending time with friends while doing smth both love.
And yes, your friends can choose to awkwardly watch you get railed by a bear or choose not to watch the scene at all and stare at the "you are sleeping" message until the cutscene is over. You can even block your friends from watching scenes if you want to. It's highly customisable.
So playing with friends certainly appeals to me and afaik to a lot of other players but I personally also love to play it alone because I feel less rushed, especially with cutscenes that I may have already seen but want to enjoy without input from other people :D
I fully agree - my first playthrough was with my best friend, and we each got a companion. It's the most fun playthrough I've done! Though I love solo just as much for different reasons, mainly having 3 party members I can control instead of just one.
Thank you both for taking the time to respond. I think those reasons are totally legit. It’s cool Larian made the cutscenes customizable to avoid potential awkwardness too. They really did think of everything!
I’m Wulbren’s biggest defender on here, and you’re exactly right. He’s barely a villain at all, but he’s treated like the single worst person ever, while people simp over the truly despicable and/or disgusting.
he wants to kill victims. when i enjoy a villain, its due to their design, their reasoning behind what theyre doing, etc. wulbren has none of that going for him. i understand where he’s coming from until he says all of the gondians have to die. the gondians were victims of gortash, not the perpetrators.
Yeah, it’s similar to Killmonger. Dude comes in spitting facts about the oppressive nature of the existing power structures, but suddenly their solution is genocide.
I hate Wulbren because he’s a caricature of a political radical.
“The systems that exist are inherently corrupt and oppressive and must be uprooted and replaced.”
Sounds reasonable to me.
“That’s why we must kill every single dirty Gondian like the cockroaches they are!”
Jesus Christ Wulbren…
Idk who made that decision or how conscious this was, but it functions as anti-revolutionary/anti-radical propaganda. Similar to Killmonger and honestly most comic book villains.
His grudge against the Gondians is personal and nit entirely unfounded. They banned him from the city for the actions of his forebears, which he had nothing to do with. This forced him to live in an unprotected village which led to his capture and enslavement. He’s not a good guy, but his hatred of the Gondians has at least some legitimacy. And it’s not like the Gondians actually seem to want to live. I’m sure you’ve done their quests…
Okay I’m bringing in an actually hot hot take here:
If you spend your entire game save scumming every single dialogue and choice and setback, then you’re greatly missing out on what the game has to offer (speaking about earlier on runs, at least).
My reasoning: BG3 is based on Dungeons & Dragons. In DnD, there is no save scumming. If you and your party make a bad decision, you’ve got to deal with the consequences, and that’s part of the fun.
In DnD, you cannot meticulously craft what your fellow adventuring companions think of you by resetting their dialogue tree with a save scum. You act, they react as they will.
A huge part of the fun of DnD is the risk, the roll of the dice, and living in the moment.
Yes every play style is valid. Yes people find enjoyment from different parts of games. Yes I can see how “well I can’t do it in DnD so BG3 offers a space for me to do so” is a good and valid reason.
I still stand by my statement. You’re missing out if you’ve never done a “fuck it we ball” or “we do it live” sort of playthrough. If you are a save scummer, no judgement to you, but I HIGHLY recommend you give this a shot. Do a run with no save scumming. Act as your character would, and see what consequences come from it.
One of the coolest moments of the game for me was when I was in Act 2 and LOST the fight at Last Light Inn. I won’t spoil what happened, but that’s probably the most impressive moment to me of the whole game; they allowed you to continue the story after a MAJOR failure & setback. THATS what DnD is all about.
Completely agreed. People should play however they want to, it's their game. I know I do a lot of things that real gamers would hate. BUT...you've got to just go where the game takes you at least once. Live with the consequences of the decisions you make, and the mistakes you make. It can be incredibly rewarding.
Agreed. While cronomancy is a completely legitimate form of magic, the game really shines when you let the shenanigans guide you and roll with failed roles. It's how you get the most unhinged and wild moments that you hear people talk about in this game. Especially considering how many failsafes larian put into the game that can account for damn near anything players have done.
Disagree, respectfully. It's a mainly single-player (Co-op is optional) video game that focuses on the player experiencing their story. If I had an infinite amount of time, sure, I could play hundreds of playthroughs with completely random choices and consequences. But I don't have the time, nor the energy. I want to play a video game and create my own story, while having fun. So what if my story means my character is the perfect hero that never makes any mistakes? Video games are an escape and my escape is playing someone opposite from me, someone that makes every right choice and is a beloved legendary hero.
I've never played a game where I was satisfied with constant failure, I have enough of that in my own life. Sure it can create an interesting story sometimes, but it can equally create a story with a character that's just constantly failing and that doesn't make for a compelling story. I've tried playing games without the ability to reload saves and every time I lose interest when I lose access to options or equipment because of choices that didn't seem like they had any actual importance ended up screwing me over.
If I save scum, I can see all of the potential outcomes to options or dialogue choices and plan my story accordingly. As an example: Maybe I don't have any actual feelings towards whether or not Astarion drinks Araj's blood, but knowing how he feels about it (especially if romancing him) and the potion I get will determine my choice.
If you want to play D&D, then that's what Honor mode was made for. Otherwise, it's a video game and you should play it however you like.
I know it's a hot take, but it's one that I think discourages people from playing how they feel like and is gatekeeping new/unexperienced players.
in theory I agree, but given that each playthrough is a 100+ hour investment of my life, the idea of allowing things to go catastrophically wrong really rankles for me. I'm content to let some shit things happen, but when one of the options is "all the characters die and you lose access to HOURS worth of quests" it's a bit mmm maybe not lol
I HATE Gortash with a passion. He's literally so bland and people dont want to admit that they only like him because he's hot. Most overrated character in the game imo (or pretty close)
Indeed. I skip his cutscenes, humor him at the coronation, then never bother with him again until after I level the foundry and ambush him in his room. He presents as a badass but is quickly humbled by Sleet Storm.
Is he hot tho? The jury is out on that. I like Gortash bc he actually has a pretty rich backstory that you can uncover through exploring Baldur's Gate and piecing it together. I like his relationship with the Dark Urge (I don't necessarily interpret it as romantic, I just find it compelling). I feel like there is so much build-up to meeting him. It does pay off in the end and it throws a lot of curveballs. He has a tragic backstory and he's an evil piece of shit. It's really fun to thwart his plans if you're playing a good guy run; it actually feels like you're making Baldur's Gate a better place. I like that he's just an evil piece of shit. He makes a great villain.
Astarion is only as popular as he is because he’s a pretty white twink. If Wyll and Astarion swapped storylines, Astarion would still be more popular despite having a less fleshed out story.
Astarion was immediately my favorite npc the first time he opened his mouth. I'm not into guys, and his looks aren't important to me. His snark is what I like. His skin color and his "sexuality" aren't even factors to any but those obsessed with those things.
It is. Attractive characters will always get more attention even if they have less developed stories. Because while not everyone has explored their stories, everyone has seen their face.
I think it's more a matter of whether you like the knight in shining armor or the bad boy more. But I do think Wyll gets more hate for being "boring" than he deserves. Wyll needed more attention from the writers, but he's certainly not boring. He fits a lot of tropes that people have loved in similar games. He's the exiled son of a nobleman. He's a warlock. He's the most suave romantic of the group. He has an actual sense of humor. He's one of the only people who isn't either standoffish or downright cruel to you right off the bat. And even if you think he's "too good," it is interesting that the whole folk hero thing is kind of an act, and it is deliberate that he is more likeable when he drops it. He is willing to do underhanded things like make a pact with a devil. He is a bit of hypocrite, and he is gracious when you call him out on it. The kind of people who love Alistair and Cullen from DA should find Wyll right up their ally, so I really do think there is some racism going on there. If Wyll were white, I think people would be swooning over him way more. I don't think pitting him against Astarion is really fair though bc it's just obvious Astarion had way more time and thought put into his story. Which is a shame and kind of racist in itself. He's the only Black companion. In fact, he's the only origin character who is explicitly non-white. I know people say Karlach is coded to be non-white, but she has red skin. It's not that it DOESN'T count, but the only two origin characters who are "non-white" had their stories changed a lot at the last second, less attention paid to them and/or don't have an actual human skin color. It really is a shame and people act like this game is soooooo progressive, but....Demand more.
I have a massive dislike for Astarion. I will never understand why people like him. He's rude, abrasive, and just overall annoying to be around. I'm not one of those people who kills him every playthrough because I recognize that he can be useful, but I just really don't enjoy him as a character.
Wyll is super underrated and doesn't get as much love as he should. He's so lovely and kind, and he's really great in combat if you build him correctly. I will never understand why people find him boring.
I also really like Halsin. He's super chill, handsome, and sweet. I don't understand the dislike toward him whatsoever.
Out of all the builds I've done (I've played every class at least once), cleric and ranger are the most fun. They're both super underrated classes, and I never see anyone choose them. Ranger especially can be super overpowered if you build it correctly.
Lastly, I'm not sure how much of a hot take this one is, but I really wish there wasn't an option to play as an origin character. I just really don't get why it's an option. It's supposed to be an RPG where you create a character who you can make into whatever you want them to be. Playing as a character who already has a fully fleshed out story is completely pointless, especially if you've already played the game as a Tav or Durge. There is almost nothing special in origin playthroughs. Also, Larian could have put more effort into other parts of the game if they didn't implement them.
Re: Astarion - it’s personal taste and being able to relate to his arc, at least for me. Sexual abuse survivors are so often shown as “perfect victims” in media, I love seeing how unapologetically messy he is. His Spawn route is very healing for me… Especially when I romance him as a Resist Durge.
Re: Playable origins - this was a thing in Divinity: Original Sin 2, so I’m assuming Larian carried that pattern to BG3. Astarion and Lae’zel’s origins have exclusive content, Shadowheart’s does too at the end of Act 2 (you get to experience the punishment/chastisement from Shar). Karlach’s origin run isn’t playable for me though, she never shuts the hell up 😭
EDIT: Lae’zel’s worst ending - and the rarest ending in the game - is only available through her origin run. It’s so rare only 34-35 people have seen it. I want to finish a Lae origin run specifically for that ending.
I’d absolutely argue that there is tonnes of unique content in origin runs, I’ve completed a Gale run and Shadowheart and they have unique dialogue, interactions and you can tailor their story to what you want. Shadowheart has a whole extra cutscene with Shar that is very cool. Origins being playable works because not everyone wants to create a brand new character every game, sometimes they want to just pick one and start playing
My co op run was an unoptimal half orc strength based beastmaster ranger. The orc was a powerful warrior, but having the beasts is so useful, especially as they level and get powerful. My only complaint is you can name them yourself lol
I started the game as a massive fan of Astarion. I loved his snark, his character development, and his storyline. Let's just say 1.7k hours later, the charm has worn off and I get the anti-Astarion folks now. I'm not at stab-bro level, but he really is a prick, isn't he.
Same here! I went into the game thinking I was going to love him. I romanced him on my first run, and I liked him for a while, but he just really started to get on my nerves after a while.
i think of playing as an origin the same as playing with any pre-generated character in a game of actual d&d. if youre doing something with a source book/any source materials, they probably have pre-gen characters.
You apparently haven't been here very long or have been very lucky to have missed the random Halsin hate threads. But now you can say that you've met someone who very much does not like the horny ecoterrorist of a bear.
Maybe my first run was simply cursed, it was primarily pre-Patch 4 which fixed a lot of issues, but when Halsin showed up I super excited for a Camp Dad. Because seriously the camp needs someone to be the responsible adult and it was for sure not going to be my Durge. But what I got instead was a sex pest with horrific timing for his unwanted advances and the audacity to respond with "but... you treated me like a lover (by letting me stay in your camp, healing the Shadow Curse, and barely speaking to me)" when I said "no, I do not want a third wheel in my relationship."
Playing as him would be nice, but as a straight dude he doesn't bring anything to my table lol.. so not hate persay, but don't exactly love him either lol
My hot take. Auntie Ethel is doing the world a favour ridding it of Mayrina - who is one of the most annoying idiots ever to grace a quest. If I'm nice to the hag? She and I get on just fine. She's like Hannibal Lector. Be polite? She leaves you alone. If it wasn't for the hair hair? I'd never bother her.
Other evil NPCs who really do nothing wrong: The Zhentarium as a whole. Friendly, polite, fairly intelligent. I'd never bother them if it wasn't for them being on the wrong side of TWO companions -.-. Likewise, Glut - he's helpful and kickass in a fight. Unlike the shrooms who get irritated when I accidentally touch a mushroom.
In a real game? I'd never touch one of them. In reality? Metagame always makes me kill them because the hit of not doing so is pretty large.
Conclusion: Despite having wonderful 'evil' options, the game fails to reward evil play. It's almost ALWAYS negative. You lose companions, access to areas, power-ups etc. Example - sacrificing your companion to Bhool. For a cheap reward you can rip off his corpse. Now... if sacrificing someone gave you a +3 ability score? Boy... would that be a tough decision. As it is? Easy to ignore and just kill the redcap.
In my many years of playing games, I've never played an evil route. Hate it, feels awful and wrong. And I'm not alone. Years back, I worked on the Fable franchise and MS gave us feedback that the majority of the player base chose the 'good' gameplay. People, despite what the internet wants us to believe, generally much prefer being heroes to villains.
But.
If you put them in? They deserve to be developed and, well, tempting. Being good should be hard at times. Being evil should be rewarding. The more rewarding it is, the more alluring being a scumbag is - much like life.
I agree with 3. It's bad enough Wyll's story still hinges on Karlach even if you don't keep her around, but it's loads worse if you do. Larian screwed his character bigtime by not giving him more of his own story. Instead, he has to take a backseat for her.
Ironically, it's actually Karlach that piggybacks off of his story not the other way around.
They completely cut her story in act 3 so they just kinda added her into Wyll and Dark Urge’s. Wyll's more because he also went through major rewrites so she was easier to slot in together.
Rolan’s goal to save his siblings and find them a home once he’s in his apprenticeship is much more interesting than helping Gale get some self-esteem and deal with the Mystra situation.
Rolan is an actual spell-crafter. His spell variations are more powerful than their base game equivalents.
His character development even as a “side NPC” is fantastic—I would love to see that more in depth, with camp conversations and things like that.
Call me a simp or whatever but I would’ve loved to romance him. Flirting with him at the party in Act 1, a heartfelt moment after saving Cal and Lia in Act 2, and a night with him in the tower in Act 3… It could’ve been great.
Astarion gets too much love than he deserves. Asshole tried to take advantage of us in our sleep, but declines biting a drow even though it helps the party.
The whole part of him trying to bite you makes absolutely no sense, too. He claims he needs the blood because he's weak, and if you then allow him to bite you, he says he needs something more filling afterward. So, in reality, he didn't need to bite us at all. He could have easily just gone into the woods to look for an animal to bite.
I remember I saw someone once who said that, unless you're meta-gaming, there's literally no reason for anyone to keep him alive. Who wants to keep someone in their party after they literally try to assault them in their sleep?
The funny thing is, I never see Astarion fans talk about the fact that he tries to assault you while you're sleeping. It's so gross, and it's not mentioned nearly as often as it should be.
Astarion always made me a bit uneasy and it is because of the bite scene. He tries to guilt you into letting him bite you and if you express any reservations, even though he knows damn well he doesn’t need to bite you. And if you trust him too much (as in you don’t tell him to stop or you fail the checks), he will kill you. Someone did a freecam after the fact and it shows Astarion still biting you even well after you die, meaning he is aware he just killed you and then he kept going. And then the next morning, he’s all “oh no, something bad happened” and walks away from your corpse as if he didn’t literally just murder you and that it isn’t a big deal that the camp leader is dead. When you get revived, he acts like you’re being unreasonable for being upset that he killed you.
Yeah, him trying to guilt you during that scene always made me feel really gross. He knows he can easily go into the woods to hunt, yet he tries to assault you, then gets mad when you tell him you don't trust him because he literally just tried to assault you.
Isobel and Aylin are boring characters by themselves and terrible when they're together. By themselves they're just other peeps' daughters and together they're reduced to just each other's partner. Their union is less than the sum of its parts
And btw I love Alfira and Lakrissa, the deep gnome couple at grymforge and Danis and Bex
Letting Orpheus become a snack for The Emperor is the better choice/lesser of two evils.
Sure, he’s a mind flayer and he’s got all that mind flayer baggage, but he seems to at least give a shit about actually saving The Gate.
Orpheus is a gith that believes his race is superior to all others. Once the gith civil war is done, he’ll have zero qualms about perpetuating a genocide in Faerun.
Plus then no one has to turn into a mind flayer because you’ve already got one
There’s not a whole lot about the githzerai in BG3 that I’ve come across yet, except for the brain in a jar.
But you are correct because I should have been more specific, it’s because he’s githyanki, not a goth.
In dnd lore the civil war that resulted in the gith being separated into githzeriai and githyanki was about whether or not it was ok to treat other races the way the mind flayers had treated them.
Orpheus is still a githyanki and they weren’t on the “give peace a chance” side.
Not to mention Orpheus is so ungrateful when you free him. I went to the literal hells to find a way to break him free and he is just so rude 😂
To be fair, you have been using him this whole time. Yeah, not doing so would have meant your death, but I think anyone would be a bit bitter in that situation. I would have been. In his defense, he does come around, and he will even sacrifice himself to become a mindflayer after all those years imprisoned. I actually think he's quite humble, honest, and selfless, especially compared to the Emperor.
I thought Orpheus was a githzerai, not githyanki? Or that he predates that schism? Maybe he is a gith supremacist, in which case, fuck that guy, but he doesn't say as much. Neither do any of his followers. They don't treat non-gith as lesser beings like the gith at the créche do, but that might just be because you are working to the same end and they don't want to shoot themselves in the foot. They will attack you if you fail a persuasion check upon coming back with Orpheus as a mindflayer, but that's not cause of gith supremacy. It's just cause you fucked over their most important religious figurehead.
I could be totally wrong though cause I'm not so familiar with gith lore. But when you do free Orpheus, I don't hear anything about them colonizing or doing anything like that from Lae'zel at Withers' party. It just seems like their main goal is to unite the gith and free the yanki from Vlaakith's tyranny. Maybe they have colonization plans for afterwards though, idk
This is all very meta since there’s so little in BG3 about the githzerai, but the split happened when Zerthimon rebelled against Gith. The Githyanki are Team Gith and the Githzerai are Team Zerthimon
Orpheus’ whole deal is being the true son of Gith or whatnot, and yes, while his immediate concern post elder brain is getting power over the githyanki, it’s really just a matter of when the githyanki come back to fuck Faerun up.
As for the using him thing - given how time doesn’t really pass in the Astral Plane and how long he’s been trapped there, us having him in the material realm for a week or two but a blip in on his timeline. Would it really hurt to say thank you?
It was just one of those things where I was glad that I save-scummed before my choice to break Orpheus out.
I was so excited to stick it to The Emperor by breaking Orpheus out and as soon as I did it, I regretted it. I sacrificed myself just to spite his smug ass, but then opted to reload and let The Emperor go to town.
Half of the companions have backstories that I would not allow for 1st level characters at my table.
Gale is a former archmage/chosen/boy toy of Mystra
Wyll is a famous, reknowned adventurer, kinda stretching the folk hero thing. And, he happens to be the son of the Archduke of Balders Gate.
Karlach is a former demon hunter for Zariel. It's not clear if she was on the battle lines or some sort of spec ops. Further, before that she was Gortash's bodyguard.
IMO, these are not 1st level character backstories. On the other side of that coin we have:
Lae'zel, just another githyanki among many. Zealous and loyal, but nothing special.
Shadowheart, raised by the Sharans, but otherwise a neophyte cleric
I'm on the fence about Astarion, the vampire spawn who's been creeping around Baldur's Gate snatching people for hundreds of years.
That's because they weren't 1st level characters prior to being tadpole'd and the whole story wouldn't make sense if they had been, unless all the Emperor had to choose from was Commoners or level 1s. Wyll flat out says that the tadpole sucked out a lot of his powers, and based on what he said he could do, he was probably about level 7, possibly as high as 9. And Gale got a double whammy with the first being level drained by the Orb, then getting tadpole'd.
As for Lae'zel and Shadowheart... Well the youths at the Crèche are easily 2nd or 3rd level characters, which makes Lae'zel most likely at least level 5-6, pre-tadpole. And Shadowheart wasn't just finally going on first mission after having been in training to be Viconia's replacement for almost 30 years, so she should have easily been as high as level 5 or 6.
Astarion could totally have been only level 1, but he was also still a CR 5 monster on top of that, which puts him head and shoulders above a standard level 1 PC.
I don't really like Ketheric Thorm. Being the only prominent American accent in the game felt anticlimactic to me, which is probably because it's the accent I'm most used to being around to be fair.
Honestly, out of the 3 main villains, Orin was the only one that my first reaction wasn't disappointment. I've come to like them all now though.
No, it's not just because you're used to the accent. He's just very bland, his speech is unemotional and monotone, and nothing he has to say us interesting.
From minute one I felt like he (the character) just didn't want to be there. He seemed like he was done and just waiting for someone to end him and I still have no idea if that was intentional or not
I LOVE his accent, and I find it kind of off-putting as the only American accent, but the weirdness of it fits his character and makes him even creepier. His voice actor (J.K. Simmons) is amazing and IMO gives one of the best performances in the game (and that's saying something with how quality the voice-acting in this game is). J.K. Simmons is just that talented.
I like the kind of reversal of... the creepy villain has an American accent instead of a British one. It's fun.
I totally see that point! And I agree, he's an extremely talented voice actor. I hadn't thought about how this does flip the script with accents too, and it's cool that they pulled it off so well.
It's just that hearing my own accent all of a sudden broke the immersion for me and my first vibe was "ew, that's just a sad, gross old man." 😬😅 Like, I know he's supposed to be chilling and intimidating, but all I'm feeling is just that "brother, eeew" meme.
I also feel like Wyll has so much front loaded dialogue that’s a massive info dump compared to other characters where you learn more about them over time.
I feel like it does somewhat make sense if you view it from the angle of him having to keep secrets for so long. After having that all bottled up for years and then having another big secret that is shared with others, I can see him info-dumping as a sort of reaction to having to keep all the crazy stuff that has happened in his life to himself for all this time.
tl;dr: Definitely disproportionate story-pacing-wise, but makes sense from a human perspective.
Wyll is the only character I really dislike. This overconfident and pretentious personality just isn't for me. It gets a little better when you keep him around and get to the bottom of his secret, but his introduction is so annoying.
How can one be so full of himself when all you have is a shitty deal with a devil?
I wish we could fix Karlach, but it came at a high cost, like Laezel being loyal to Vlaakith and undergoing ceremorphosis, or romancing Wyll and then sleeping with Mizora, or getting it from Wulbren after fully eliminating the Gondians on a run when you have high approval with good characters.
Bg3 is so well balanced and responsive to player choice and tactics. It also means once you understand how the game works, it's pretty easy. Most of the challenge runs even aren't that hard either unless you get mods involved. If you know the game, there is no build you can't solo honor mode on. So the idea of meta builds is kind of pointless. However, this is not a criticism. It honestly is a reflection of very skilled game design. It's just not the sort of game you flex with.
Astarion, Gale and Shadowheart get to have actual conversations.
Wyll, Lae'zel and Karlach mostly provide exposition and info dumping
With every new update I hoped for improvement especially with Wyll and by patch 7/8 it feels like Larian would rather give the Owlbear his own quest than give Wyll a word more of dialogue
Also, in some cases companion reactions after big story beats are too brief (just a couple of lines you can't even respond to). For example, if you play as Origin Astarion and ascend, you can have an actual conversation about it only with Karlach and Jaheira, but not Wyll. You'd think he should have had more to say.
I take it you haven’t explored her Baldur’s Gate basement? She has been Clive Barkering innocent people. Then throw in her ambition to destroy the city of Menzoberranzan she is a bit of a roaster that needs to die. Sells good rings but. Get the mods so traders have on them all their stock when they die so you can kill her for her great stock. Big fan of her farter myself, cracking pipe on her.
Me after finishing my first playthrough: Wow this game is amazing
Me on my 292398342th playthrough: Wow this game is a buggy mess and it is glaringly obvious that there was a lot of cut content.
Really wish they put more effort into Wyll and Karlach's questlines. On my first playthrough I remember being so so so disappointed when Karlach's soul coin quest didn't go anywhere, it really took me out of the immersion. Flo is just... Karlach's friend in the Hells? That's it? Don't even get me started on the three stories that meant absolutely nothing at the end. Astarion, Lae'zel, and Shart are so much more reactive as well. Wyll barely reacts to anything and its such a shame because I think he was well written, and I think his kind nature makes him stand out from the rest of the group. Thank god for mods that restore some of his cut content.
There's also just way less buildup for Karlach's questline as well. It's just fix engine -> kill gortash in act 3 -> done. The other companions have SO much more going on. When I compare Karlach's quest to Shadowheart's or Lae'zel's it just makes me sad because she's such a good character and deserves so much more.
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u/A_Balrog_Is_Come 1d ago
Builds which require loads of set-up, really specific gear combinations that force you to sacrifice useful abilities, and can only deliver their intended damage output once or twice per long rest are not fun.