I think the online left especially struggles with this concept as we all have our red lines, and some also struggle to comprehend not having to like everyone you are working with or announcing your disapproval.
Leftist gate keeping is why most leftists i know irl have abandoned "leftists" while still voting and advocating in lefty ways. They just find no joy what so ever in actually talking to many leftists especially online.
As an example, we've got a cat at work who thinks a belief in aliens is inherently conservative so if you mention ufos he treats you as a Maga.
As a leftist who has been fascinated by UFO stuff, I can understand that sentiment, since all the woo stuff is filled with different alt-right pipelines. Since if you're willing to believe in something without evidence, you're also an easier target for other kinds of misinformation and conspiracies and right wing agendas, so they put their guard up. Another good example would be crypto. I find the tech super interesting, but the space is filled with libertarians and scam artists, like above.
Oh I get it. All the cool shit is filled with dirt bags. Like somehow Joe Rogan took over the conspiracy space that wasn't already occupied by Info Wars.
Man I just like aliens. We used to go see Roswell and stuff when I was a kid lol.
That's cool, I would like to see that too, but nobody in my social circle cares or is super critical or annoyed by it. Now that I think of it, centrists and right wingers are the same way as well. Even my mom, without permission, threw out my UFO book collection that I had collected during the years and I received zero sympathy from anyone for my loss, lol. I also thought Joe Rogan and Alex Jones were cool in their early days before they became too corrupted by the right. For example how I thought similarly how 911 was suspicious on how easily it was allowed to happen with the existing warning signs and how massive the ramping up the money for the military industrial complex and all the excuses to invade countries and detain people to the black sites, similarly what now happened with oct7.
I mean honestly I think we all just need to remember how to tell people to stfu when they're being rude. Nobody has to listen to, nor should be subjected to, berating by leftist purists.
It’s not just the lack of joy. I’ve literally been banned from multiple leftist subs for daring to disagree and have a discussion on certain topics. I literally can’t participate even if I want to. The purity tests create this impossible black and white ideal of what a leftist is online and lead to fractured groups of smaller and smaller numbers, which completely chokes out the movement before it can gain any real groundswell momentum.
Liberals often have trouble with socialist spaces because liberals view politics as a form of individual moral expression and not as a doctrine of action. Socialism has a set of very wide set of discrete principles, formed by a certain analysis of the world. If you lack those principles, or deviate in your analysis, you cannot be called socialist.
Socialists trying to educate liberals is seen by liberals as an attack on their morality, and this is the mechanism by which liberals begin to accuse the left of purity testing and of puritanical behavior. Plenty of especially new or young socialists are moralists and not educated in socialism and thus use moralistic and not rational analysis, this leads to their behavior being insufferable. However, liberals can also be insufferable due to an unwillingness to listen.
I think a lot of the conflict here is that many real socialists are either unwilling or unable to teach, and many liberals are unwilling to learn.
The problem isn’t a debate on theory though, it’s disagreements for approaching the application of the ideology in the real world and putting it into practice. The black and white thinking within online socialist spaces completely ignores that reality we actually live in, and ignores the fact that socialism cannot be made a reality overnight and those who recognize an incremental approach is necessary are instantly labeled libs and banned. It’s always revolution now (from behind their keyboard) and anything less is not worth my time, despite having built no class solidarity or laying any groundwork that would make an actual revolution a success, or you’re banned.
And they do apply the black and white thinking against morality too. Somehow just mentioning a trolly is somehow ban worthy in most spaces, as if harm reduction in and of itself is somehow against theory and morality. There’s a world where you can reduce harm in the now and long term, and make continued progress towards socialism/communism, without having to murder my neighbors in a violent revolution.
The problem isn’t a debate on theory though, it’s disagreements for approaching the application of the ideology in the real world and putting it into practice. The black and white thinking within online socialist spaces completely ignores that reality we actually live in, and ignores the fact that socialism cannot be made a reality overnight and those who recognize an incremental approach is necessary are instantly labeled libs and banned. It’s always revolution now (from behind their keyboard) and anything less is not worth my time, despite having built no class solidarity or laying any groundwork that would make an actual revolution a success, or you’re banned.
And they do apply the black and white thinking against morality too. Somehow just mentioning a trolly is somehow ban worthy in most spaces, as if harm reduction in and of itself is somehow against theory and morality. There’s a world where you can reduce harm in the now and long term, and make continued progress towards socialism/communism, without having to murder my neighbors in a violent revolution.
The harm reduction angle is a Whig argument and I don't just mean that by analogy. Harm reduction was literally one of the argument made by Whigs against abolitionists. Yet it was struggle that freed the slaves, not reform. Abolitionists did not sacrifice their principals for short term gains under the Whigs because they realized, as we should realize, that reforms are illusory.
"Harm reduction" is a manifestation of a principal of class collaboration, not class struggle, the root belief under this principal is that of the State is a neutral tool of class reconciliation rather than class conflict. This is historically incorrect and a result of incorrect education. A scientific analysis of history gives us this principal of class conflict.
There is a reason reform movements have only succeeded in American politics three times (Lincoln, FDR, Johnson) and that is because of class struggle by American workers, not the State. There is no large social movement to propel AOC or Bernie into power like there was for Lincoln or FDR. There is no movement strong enough to extract concessions from the State like with Johnson or FDR.
At the end of the day, reform is the practice of seeking short term gains at the expense of long term losses. The same strategy as liberals.
So again, all I’m hearing from you is that bloody revolution is the only solution right? That’s exactly what I’m talking about. It’s either we must rise up now or all other solutions are half measures and don’t bother. Let’s keep things as they are because we’ve made perfect the enemy of good.
If it’s the case that revolution is the only option, where’s the momentum for that? Who is organizing arms against the state? Oh right, it doesn’t exist. It’s literally a LARP. Can’t even organize a general strike because nobody wants to take the steps to organize labor and form the class consciousness necessary to even mount a revolution in the first place.
No, you misunderstand revolutionary politics. Revolutions aren't won through force of arms alone, but are reliant on parallel institutions to assume state power. It is equally important to build independent, socialist institutions to fill state roles.
Revolutions are not spontaneous acts of random violence or the seizure of existing government but rather the substitution of one state for another.
There are plenty of socialist orgs building parallel power, whether that be FRSO, PSL, IWW, or DSA. Just because success is not instantaneous does not mean these organizations aren't succeeding in their goals and growing.
The online left is like any other closed society. Status within the group is determined by perceived genuineness. Social climbers will tear other community members to shreds because it is the surest way to get noticed. This also explains why drama and slop content is so popular.
Agree. The far right all hate each other but they’re willing to put aside their differences to work together.
I think we need to remember that in order to create a movement, we need to collect a large group of support. Right now specific ideology isn’t important.
Liberals are probably gonna join that movement too and we need to be ok with that. Let’s get the fascists out of power and teach along the way.
In a leftist sub thread attacking Bernie and AOC, I said I won't attack Bernie because he's the closest American politician that I have to my own politics, though not a perfect match. I got banned for "Sanders apologia."
I think there's room to criticize people on the left, without throwing the baby with the bathwater essentially. Right now, sanders is a recognizable figure offering a voice to people who feel disenfranchised. You don't have to like him, but we need to use his message as an opportunity. At least, that's my takeaway.
Or maybe it's that petit bourgeois reform doesn't actually offer any realistic solutions. You're more doomed to fail than revolutionary politics. Especially now that Trump has near absolute power over the government
Or maybe they are offended by Bernies lukewarm response to genocide? I think tailing Sanders and AOC is a dead end for working class politics, because when it comes to it, they are dependent on the Democratic party. I dislike the idea that we cant critique the left wing of the Democrats.
While I agree that in an ideal world, we should abandon the democratic party when it comes to working class politics we don't live in an ideal world. Bernie and AOC are largely the largest platform we have for working class politics that the average voter will see. The average American doesn't vote, isn't terminally online, and is bombarded with liberal and conservative propaganda daily and would be massively benefited by working class policies. While the Dems certainly will try and co opt any momentum AOC and Bernie generate, as public figures, they do introduce people to working class politics and makes it easier for local organizers. We absolutely should critique people for bad opinions or votes. But we also need to recognize when we can take advantage of their voices/message instead of just writing them off as a Zionist like it sounds happened to OP.
I think people don’t understand that you don’t want to discard your allies.
Like if you have two leftists and one is a tankie and the other wishes to work within the system, the end goal is still the same.
Both Bernie and AOC are liberal zionists; however, they don’t put a ton of effort into defending Israel’s actions and their positions within the US system are incredibly important and need to become mainstream. I’m not gonna listen to them if they discuss Israel since from my understanding neither of them believe in complete Palestinian emancipation, but they are otherwise still an ally.
You can disagree or even dislike someone, but sometimes it’s better to work with them in order to get a mutual benefit.
Its not just other subs, its here. go to any post that shows that bernie or AOC did a good thing and it will be flooded by people who call them too libbed up and right wingers. Its sickening that some leftists can't see past their own ego to know that we aren't going to make America into Marxists dream with calling everyone slightly right of you the worst things possible.
Idk if they're talking about real-world organizations, but if that is happening in an actual org, that's bad practice. Every org should be striving for internal good-faith discussion. Just from my own experience, the best way to deal with "bad" opinions or whatever is to patiently explain to people your organization's position and to have as friendly of a conversation as possible. Not even saying this to be nice, it's just counterproductive to be antagonistic towards people with slightly different views.
I encountered that kinda behaviour from an organisation when I was a baby leftist, which was very disheartening, but the org was a Trotskyist one so yanno
I mean when someone’s right they’re right. Plenty of leftists do suck and seem to forget the whole propaganda of what they’re fighting and are more interested in brow beating over theory. These are online leftists. I haven’t encountered these people in real life.
I agree! My organising buddies are endlessly more charitable than leftists in online spaces (especially the ones who continue organising past 25 - no offence to the kids)
Vanguard calls it 'Dark woke'. I think of it as Post-woke. Realizing that words don't matter, there is no equality under unmitigated capitalism and inoffensive language doesn't make you any less oppressed.
tbh the online leftists who do this are exactly that way because they don't interact with real people in the real world enough, and like you said, they're usually young and haven't had life kick them in the ass enough to realize pragmatism is the only way to survive.
yeah im not disagreeing with you. i wonder if op is speaking about leftists or libs. def something to be said about this as far as leftists go, and even more so libs, but i think any realistic and constructive criticism of our project would maybe benefit from not airing our brothers, sisters and nonbinarys probs/dirtyy laundry and instead embracing our differences. i like that we’re not all the same. friction from within is good and we should embrace it. it means our project is beyond the echo chamber. but yes, some of us or really god damn annoying hahah
There’s a big difference between “I’m dem soc and you’re soc dem let’s talk about it” and “you fucking idiot soc Dems are just evil capitalists and have you considered how you support billionaires exploiting the entire global south if you’re a soc dem?” The first one the soc dem can work with and they likely feel welcomed in the project, that is a person that is trying to work with people who for all practical purposes of today’s society they mostly agree on policy. The second one is abrasive and actively turns people away from leftism. The leftist infighting is not really at all about minor differences in philosophy and appears to me much more about establishing some kind of dominance as the smarter more ethical leftist. The latter is not a functional way to behave in the least if the goal is to grow leftist thought.
I'm glad you haven't encountered these people in real life. I haven't encountered theory pedants in real life but there's plenty of other ways for leftists to suck. I've had quite a few really promising orgs I was a part of go to complete shit because of some reeeallly dumb stuff.
I feel like it's perfectly fine to share the same ideologies and principles with someone, and not want to be friends or hang around them. Everybody's different. It's ok to not get along with someone, as long as I know that they're advocating for the same things that I am. Some leftists also do still tend to fall into the same reactionary thinking and propaganda that we all try to break away from, which is probably where the disconnect starts.
This is the perfect response instead of completely abandoning your ideologies simply because some other lefty acted like an asshole, just dont associate yourself with the overly aggressive leftist circles who “jump” on your inaccurate language
Honestly the only hard red line for me in terms of leftist “in fighting” is genocide. That’s where I draw the line and if that makes me extreme or radical then idk what to tell you. Genocide isn’t a matter of a certain policy opinion or whether it’s lining up perfectly with Marxist theory. It’s genocide. If you can’t stand against it firmly, I honestly can’t trust you.
I think being online compounds this issue as well. It's millions of people interacting with one another -- there's no way we're all going to agree on everything. But rather than accepting that and moving on with our lives, the anonymity of being online emboldens people to fight with one another. There is zero risk in being incendiary online, whereas behaving that way in public would definitely cause a scene.
A lot of leftists forget that infighting is actually proof of concept for leftist ideology.
In leftist theory and communities, disagreeing with a comrade but still working together to create a better world IS ACTUALLY THE POINT. We don't have to agree about the finer points of discourse in order to fight for the right to life and freedom for EVERYONE. A communist and a socialist arguing the moral superiority of their respective beliefs only to break bread and work on community action together is theory being practiced in reality.
The farther people move to the right, the more they're expected to conform to the group, and the more dire the consequences of stepping out of line. Fascism may work like clockwork, but any deviation from the norm is exterminated. But the farther people move to the left, the more effort is made to hear every viewpoint and provide for every human variation. We may committee ideas to death trying to find the most equitable solution, but we're not gonna throw you in prison for wearing the "wrong" gendered clothes.
We fight about our differences, and that's okay; I don't have to agree with you to fight for your rights. Cancel culture within leftist communities is in direct opposition to what leftists as a whole are trying to achieve.
i suggested that someone in here be careful when saying direct and obvious death threats about elon and trump and they said i needed a backbone. i told them they jeopardize this space’s ability to stay unbanned because they wanna be tactless and inflammatory. they said “we need fighters, not run away and hiders”. like i get it. i want to fight and im on your side. but damn dude, i’m just saying please don’t fuck up the sub and get us banned by using death threats in a public forum. if not for the sub, then for you to not get raided. and suddenly, i’m a piece of shit. what they don’t realize is all that does is make me embarrassed for this side of the political spectrum and further reluctant to completely assimilate. i don’t want to be dragged and feel like shit if i try to bring nuance and caution to the conversation. it just (not always, but every once in awhile) severely lacks tact and strategy. the dick measuring contest in leftist circles IS real and only serves to undermine our legitimacy further. i went as far to say they are a false flag operator intentionally creating discord in our ranks. straight up, that’s gotta be happening.
Wow, you ran into a real badass there 😬 Sorry for the stupidity. When I encounter folks like that I kind of assume they’re new and overcompensating. Sadly, that’s not always the case.
Also what does a death threat really do? It may sound harsh, but if you aren't willing to carry out a threat then it isn't a threat. It's just mindless barking at that point. That person isn't fighting anything.
i recently started talking politics at work, and having to engage with coworkers (who i really like and respect) who have slighty different opinions/ideologies has made me a better champion for the cause and given opportunity to learn how to explain my stance without hostility. Alot of working people are socialist/leftist in principle, but ultimately not anticapitalist (whether they come from the global south in the caseof some of my coworkers, or they just simply cant get over the "communism=bad" rhetoric)
the point is: sometimes we'll catch more flies with honey
Topical, since I saw some leftist accounts talk about how Hasan is just talking to genocide enabling congress-woman AOC and Bernie while he's not being anti Israel enough.
I understand where these people are coming from since they form connections with Palestinian families and try to promote their gofundme pages and have been doing so for almost a year and a half, but since the pro-Palestinian leftist movement has little to no motion/power in politics they can't afford to be so picky with their allies. At the same time, it sounds so gross talking like that about a genocid enabling party and picking allies from there.
Further, some staffer's tweet was claiming Hasan denied a Jill Stein interview twice and he's made his opinion on Jill Stein's opportunistic stance pretty clear that she's just here pretending to push a political party.
I wish people who complain about this stuff would include a couple of examples of what they said and what was said to them. Because these complaints can range from people who've said something egregious and were corrected to people who've made minor infractions and were interpreted in the least charitable way possible. And without an example of what their gripe is, we're just vaguely gesturing at a problem where all of us have to project our worst experiences with a wokescold and condemn it.
I didn’t include their experiences as I saw this on Twitter and just wanted to make a more general point of being welcoming however… see pic for examples. I don’t want to comment on OP’s sensibilities so hopefully this won’t turn into that!
Edit: also, a lot of the comments were supportive - saying this is a shitty people who are into politics problem, rather than a leftist problem. Tbh - I initially assumed this was an old post or would have linked! But again, I just wanted it to serve as a general reminder. Either way, hope this extra content is helpful.
Thank you for sharing the context. I agree #1 is horrible and dumb. It's not even any leftist thought at this point, just a nonsense opinion. #2 i guess it's super 70-30 for me still (70 being on OP's side) depending on what was said. It could be a good faith discussion of what is an appropriate way to air that grievance. And #3 is just silly banter among friends, which i guess hurt her because of her parents neglecting to teach her valuable life skills, but that's not a leftist critique as such. All this to say, we all need to be discerning while critiquing people especially if we are laundering our opinions as "leftist thought", and we also need to be more discerning when we receive criticism about if it reflects on leftist thought, or is it just an interaction with an asshole who come in all political flavours. I have interacted with people who I disliked who I am largely politically alligned with, and I file it under "friendship incompatibility" rather than "leftist hostility".
I got banned from that subreddit for saying I don't want Trump to win because I don't want my LGBT family members to suffer. Never mentioned Harris and an admin DMed me and called me "scum" lol
I got banned for praising Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent as a cornerstone of leftist analysis. Apparently because Chomsky is lib on some topics, that made me a lib.
The definition of fascism is an authoritarian regime that is created to protect capitalism. It has nothing to do with socialism or communism. If you called them Tankies on a supposed Marxist Leninist subreddit then it’s no surprise at all that you got banned from there.
this was a conversation I had a while ago in the r/communism subreddit, the op was asking for good socialist authors besides marx/engels/lenin. I was banned shortly after (the mod sent me a message saying I didn’t belong in the subreddit). Leftist circles, especially online, are plagued with insufferable pseudo-intellectuals.
'Be normal' is such an important component to any political movement. You are never going to get ideologically pure members, perfect will and forever be the enemy of good. Yes, there's standards we should maintain and never accept anything obviously repulsive. But if you act in good faith, and remember that people have lived different experiences from your own, then you'll be able to find a reasonable way to get through to them.
I once got into something of an argument because I said the capital of my state was a dump, literally all I said and this person rounded on me for being insensitive and rude to the people of that city. I didn't say "it's a dump so we should round up everyone there and hang them all," or even something like "it's a dump and it reflects poorly on the morals and intelligence of the people who reside there." No, I just stated that the city, one that I've been many times and live a short 40 minute drive away, is unappealing and frankly kinda rundown and therefore is sort of a dump. But the person insisted that I was making some sort of statement on the people itself, and that was punching down at the poor downtrodden residents of that city.
That's not a normal stance to take, and I'm of the belief you can comment on the state of a town without immediately passing judgement on the people who live there. I understand what this person going for, and I understand why they're doing it, but it seems like an argument that can be better used for people who do pass judgment on the residents.
I never had this situation in real life, but in the Internet, is 200% like this. The r/socialism an r/Socialism_101 have some of the most toxic people I ever saw in reddit. It's a mix of arrogance, lack of real-life experience and toxic intellectualism that causes every post to be a mine field. I got banned from Socialism 101 because I gave a "non-socialist comment" in the post. WTF, isn't this the place to learn shit??
And when we are more open to certain discussions it’s instantly “this sub is too libbed up” and you go on their profile and it’s the most miserable mf on the planet just thinking leftism means bitterness.
Anyway, you couldn’t pay me to post in such subs! 🙂↔️
Nah, this community isn't that charitable lmao. Every time chat has a slight disagreement with a singular, serious political take, they go bat shit insane and Hasan has to reign in chatters every time. Unfortunately this is also a problem here.
If you word something wrong, what do you mean by “jumped on”? Do you mean “corrected”? Do you just not like the way some leftists are correcting your language?
I mean I didn’t write the post but I would say the “I like pancakes” “so you hate waffles?!!” can ring true here.
We all have seen our own examples of this dynamic but yes ofc, critique will sometimes be appropriate and can even be productive, especially when delivered in a measured way.
Tbh if the pancakes/waffles thing is an issue, they can’t let those language police deter them from their ideology and find better leftist groups to associate with
OPs post actually garnered a lot of positive reactions and comments so I definitely think they got that message! I met a lot of hostile people as a baby leftist years ago but found my people in the end.
It gets easier the quicker you can identify which people and conversations are worth your energy.
be normal and meet people where they're at. as much as I want to call defenders of capitalism imbeciles, that's not how you get people on your side. you have to meet them where they're at and patiently guide them while staying normal and chill about it
And people will say “we don’t have time for patience” not understanding that a person does not need to be fully educated on Marxism to fight against fascism, with you. They just need to know who they’re in solidarity with, that’s it! The rest can come in time, is my opinion.
i agree with this but im sick of white liberals using "cancel culture" as an excuse to not get with leftist orgs and policy. like if you let that keep you from fighting for good, you never fucking cared in the first place.
If you want allies then you need to educate them and guide them with common sense, dignity and decent reasoning. Rather than fighting them and excluding them for the blind spots they aren't even aware they have. Some people can be left leaning and think they support minorites but then say something they weren't aware was wrong. You'd take them aside and make a logical reasoning why what they are saying is not productive to the conversation. people are more likely to hear you out if you aren't berating them.
But if you scream and shit on them for using the word you're alienating someone that was literally in your camp. Even if what they said would piss you off, a calm measured response I feel is the best approach IMHO. If you can clearly tell they weren't being intentionally bastards about it.
Its a very tough thing mentally to have to fight the status quo of the world all day everyday. It can break you. I think everyone needs to give themselves a break and not strive for perfect
Definitely can agree with this sentiment. Went to a few interest groups for socialist groups of the years and while there are lots of lovely people, I definitely got standoffish vibes over being adequately educated or informed on theory. I'm also a cishet white man so I can understand the apprehension from marginalized people, but it can definitely be a barrier for entry.
“You don’t get it man! Bernie is a Zionist and a capitalist pig dog just like the rest of them!! AOC?! Ha! Don’t even get me started. She did tweet the right thing one time and she’s still registered as a Democrat!”
“Oh, you have all the same criticisms of them but just want to post a positive thing they’ve done because we need some hope right now? You are a liberal fuck!! Hasan should platform PSL or he’s useless!!!”
(In all seriousness - I don’t even mind people disagreeing on how “we” should approach Bernie and AOC but labelling everyone who doesn’t agree a lib or less educated is so cringe and tired)
Especially when almost all normies have "Liberal" or "Conservative" as their only point of reference. This audience has a tendency to get so far into the weeds with it, that is completely unhelpful. Gotta get the normies but can't just throw them The Communist Manifesto and expect them to get it. They've been conditioned to have a visceral reaction at the thought of communism and socialism. These people aren't going to flip overnight. We have to peel away the layers like an onion and lead them to the truth.
Yeah, leftist version of identity politics. That’s why a lot of people started calling Hasan a liberal Zionist enabling traitor the moment BE made a video about it like it was some sort of label-induced marching order - not realising they’re just peddling drama and it doesn’t make them “more left”.
I just don’t understand how anyone thinks you do from fascist American conservatism to anything resembling socialism without a Bernie or AOC in the middle. Violent revolution sure but even then it’s never been immediate
Some leftists genuinely say we can’t lend Bernie conditional support because we need to “focus on getting a revolution” - as if Bernie would be the thing stopping class consciousness or a revolution in the US. Doesn’t sound very dialectical materialism to me.
All this to say, I do agree we should critique and push where we can. Hasan saying Bernie needs to lead with solid policies instead of a theme like ‘fighting oligarchy’ is 100% correct.
Right? That's why Castro wasn't able to directly take power from Batista, he had to have a social democrat in first! Same for Ho Chi Mihn, after the French left his very first step was setting up a social democracy in North Vietnam so they could transition towards socialism after.
As proof of concept for this idea, look at Finland, Sweden, Denmark, and Norway. Every one of them at the verge of socialism thanks to social democracy!
What you're saying has no basis in reality. Social democracy is neither a necessary step towards socialism nor does it bring us closer to socialism. In fact, FDR's social democratic policies helped demolish strong worker's movements in the US by taking the winds out of their sails with handouts to the white working class
Who exactly in American politics is doing the work to bring about violent revolution and bring us to socialism that passes whatever purity test yall want? Give me a name. I’d love to read their writing and see their movement. I’d love to watch one of their rallies and hear them speak. They must have a lot of movement within the working class. Or maybe they’re exiled to another country like Lenin or in prison like Stalin and will show up after everything is already fallen apart and take advantage like they did. It’s not Hasan. It’s not Bernie. It’s not AOC. It’s not Mike from PA. It’s not anyone you could point to in this country because it doesn’t exist. You would rather knee cap anything that moves away from Republican domination because it isn’t enough or complete or pure like others before. Bernie isn’t identical to Castro so fuck him right? FDR didn’t do full fledge socialism to anything he did do is worthless right? You people need to get a grip on reality
I'm not about purity testing, I'm about "not genocidal" testing. Its the difference between refusing to drink anything but pure distilled water and refusing to drink water you know you'll get dysentery from.
We live in a post-COINTELPRO society. You simply can't exist as a Black Panthers type organization anymore. That being said, while the PSL isn't throwing up barricades any time soon, they have kept to a principled message and taken an active role in organizing pro-Palestinian protests. They have actively undermined the lie that the masses are onboard with the genocide of Gaza.
Meanwhile AOC opposed a primary to defend Holocaust Harris' campaign. Meanwhile Bernie has had an entire career of support for Israel.
Telling people they need to compromise on being anti-genocide is disgusting. This isn't some pie in the sky purity test, its basic humanity. Bernie and AOC aren't allies, they are the left wing of corporate fascism.
Oh fuck off. Bernie is a Zionist. AOC supported the genocidal Biden and Harris campaigns and opposed a genuine primary.
Plenty of "leftists" want to take the message "Be nicer and more educational towards other leftists" into "Don't criticize anyone, including elected politicians, in the interests of civility."
I’m glad to see these comments that lean to I’m just algorithm-ing because I’ve been seeing these a lot and was putting more weight on these are disingenuous to start a new assault on dividing us. People can say what they want about Bernie. W/e he’s not our leader but when I watched his rally the other day I was reminded of the hope from 2016. The fight for all of us. The confirmation that all are welcome and that it won’t work any other way while “all” does not include those that do exclude certain groups. We were so united and then it all fell apart. I think this describes it pretty good.
I relate to this feeling. Leftists are so quick to hatefully purity test anyone who isn’t woke enough. It’s alienating and exhausting and fucking annoying
This is my exact sentiment. So many here would be happy with losing everything they value if it means they got to be the most leftist leftist. Progress isn't made without compromise, we can't expect America to flip everything it is with one election.
My take is just trying to be better is good. No reason to gatekeep it will make people run. “Don’t attribute malice which could be attributed to stupidness. (Ignorance)”
I feel like there is an obvious reason for this issue to be honest. It is harder to remain civil and assume good faith when you are losing, and the actual left are usually losing and struggling to have an impact on economic policy.
This community absolutely will ban anybody that doesn't preach about god king Hasan. It falls into the same trappings as other leftist circles, fym. All of his mods are some of his biggest sycophants that don't even expand on his ideas, just repeat them with a base level of understanding.
I mean I have criticisms of Hasan so not really sure what to reply. I can see from another post that you’ve been banned? Have you tried messaging the mods on Twitter? Or whispering them?
Leftist purity testing is an awful thing. So many would be happy watching the world burn if it means they could create their own hyper selective clique of 6 people who are identical in everyway.
So what divisive things are you saying that makes leftists critical? Leaving this detail blank then acting like anyone critical is far left infighting, that is the lib part
I’m really sorry but wanting to provide a general post in a sub does not make one a lib - not everything has to be hyper specific to a scenario, stakes are not that high.
As you’ll see, it’s enabled lots of different types of examples in this thread. Not sure if you watch Hasan or use Twitter, but in a single day I’m sure you’ll see lots of examples. Wouldn’t want fum0hachis to think I’m a lib though so I will provide some personal examples for you.
I was once accused of being pro imperialism because I said “Britain and United Kingdom” … I was told by quite a respected leftist in the group “there’s nothing united here and it erases Irish unification”. I was a baby leftist then but it stuck with me.
I was also once quite bluntly asked to leave a space- that had no signage whatsoever- because it was a POC only space. The principle is of course fine but it was a very uncomfortable interaction and felt designed to be hostile. (I’m Kurdish but do consider myself white)
There are some leftists who have genuinely said they are surprised and judge me for watching Hasan.
A lot of the discussion around BE and Bernie has also been frustrating but that wasn’t necessarily at the forefront of my mind when making this post.
Sandwiching the meat between the bread I see. You telling me this whole post about infighting or w/e is over a white boy not automatically being welcome in a poc space…. Oh brother…
Do you enjoy being deliberately obtuse?… It won’t make your life any better, sorry to tell you.
What a shame after I tried to extend some grace to you after you didn’t to anyone here. Says a lot about your character. Either that or you’re not the brightest bulb.
There was a dude in this sub the other day going off on how doesn’t actually introduce and bring people to the left, that his audience is people who were already left leaning. Other commenters shared their own various experiences, to which this person started lashing out, attacking people, and completely avoiding actually responding to points that other posters were making while calling everyone else bad faith.
It’s not hard to find posters on this sub who seem to only know how to lash out and belittle people. There’s a big difference between having a good faith conversation that involves criticism and the straight-up antisocial behavior that frequently appears on leftist subs.
EDIT: After reading your other comments, you’re coming across as exactly the kind of person the OP is talking about.
I’m glad to see more people opening up and talking about left infighting these days. It’s badly overdue and is the primary reason we are losing the fight.
Perfection has stood in the way of “good enough” for the last few decades, and we have probably put in just as much effort fighting in our own ranks than we have fighting the right wing.
Case in point, I am a “Class first” communist in the vein of Inessa Armand, for that I’ve often been called a “class reductionist” or even as far as being called a bigot. I’m passionate about all emancipation from LGBT to Racial justice, but to me that goes hand in hand with class politics which should be the primary driver.
People are free to disagree, and they’ll always be my comrades, but a lot of people who hyperfocus on more specific or even “niche” areas of left wing politics do not see me as one as I’m primarily focused on class politics.
It’s time for all of us to be emancipated comrades, focus on generating class consciousness, and the anti trans bigot next door will soon realise it’s the billionaires and not the drag shows that are corrupting the fabric of our nations.
I think OP just associates with fringe leftists, just as their are fringe right-wing assholes too lol (tho those are generally much more dangerous). I know normal leftists irl and they're... surprise, surprise, absolutely normal. It's more so the circles you find yourself in.
Ya it’s epidemic that shit… I was given a warning in “socialism 101” for providing a response that wasn’t “socialist” around a question about why are young men attracted to the right…
It was probably one of the fucken most absurd things I’ve ever run into and it was inconsistent with how some of the other replies in the thread were structured. Similar opinion based reply as to why we “think” that was happening yet I had my post removed and was “temporarily banned”…
Fuck that place, I left as that kind of shit does is no good. Some things are worth fighting, that kind of bullshit was not. It’s an easy test to fail and the vitriol that comes from those monitoring is too much. Learning experiences are also treated with such heavy hands I find. There is no room for error and if you don’t know what you don’t know it’s the same as basically committing a purposeful act in the eyes of some. Not helpful at all…
While I get where some of it comes from, we really can be our own worst enemies at the end of the day.
I think a lot of these people are the ones who don't want unity on the left who pose as leftists. Could be single actors or the three letter agencies. I've never met anyone who is an anticapitalist that I couldn't get along with. It's anonymous Internet bullshit and should be treated as such.
If you do meet someone like this, explain that we need as much of us as possible to unify before we can even start to bicker about differences.
What an appropriate sub for it. I got auto banned from r/latestagecapitalism because I had posted it r/Democrats. Even though I was arguing with the Democrats. I got these responses from mods:
We really don’t need to be perfect. I’m extremely leftist, but have struggled to call what bukele is doing terrible.
I live in latin America, I don’t want my cousins to face gang violence, I want all of those people locked away because the safety in my country has been greatly damaged by gang violence. I don’t really care what consequences they face for being gang members, “human rights” are something that I don’t see applying to people that have literally taken those rights away from others by killing/violating/etc. But that idea might be something that some people see as “not leftist at all”.
And I do understand that innocent people get caught in the crossfire, and what the US is doing with El Salvador is inherently evil, but calling what El Salvador did bad outright just feels wrong to me.
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u/cosmonaut_koala 13d ago
"Don't let perfect be the enemy of good."