*Taps the sign*

[u/Throwaway-15102023]

Tbh this community is one of the more charitable leftist spaces in my opinion however, still a useful reminder to “be normal”. 🩷

[u/Throwaway-15102023]

I think the online left especially struggles with this concept as we all have our red lines, and some also struggle to comprehend not having to like everyone you are working with or announcing your disapproval.

[u/ShinyHobo → u/Throwaway-15102023]

We had this discussion at my last DSA meeting

[u/blackwolfdown → u/ShinyHobo]

Leftist gate keeping is why most leftists i know irl have abandoned "leftists" while still voting and advocating in lefty ways. They just find no joy what so ever in actually talking to many leftists especially online.

As an example, we've got a cat at work who thinks a belief in aliens is inherently conservative so if you mention ufos he treats you as a Maga.

[u/Zskrabs24 → u/blackwolfdown]

It’s not just the lack of joy. I’ve literally been banned from multiple leftist subs for daring to disagree and have a discussion on certain topics. I literally can’t participate even if I want to. The purity tests create this impossible black and white ideal of what a leftist is online and lead to fractured groups of smaller and smaller numbers, which completely chokes out the movement before it can gain any real groundswell momentum.

[u/Aggressive-Isopod-68 → u/Zskrabs24]

Liberals often have trouble with socialist spaces because liberals view politics as a form of individual moral expression and not as a doctrine of action. Socialism has a set of very wide set of discrete principles, formed by a certain analysis of the world. If you lack those principles, or deviate in your analysis, you cannot be called socialist.

Socialists trying to educate liberals is seen by liberals as an attack on their morality, and this is the mechanism by which liberals begin to accuse the left of purity testing and of puritanical behavior. Plenty of especially new or young socialists are moralists and not educated in socialism and thus use moralistic and not rational analysis, this leads to their behavior being insufferable. However, liberals can also be insufferable due to an unwillingness to listen.

I think a lot of the conflict here is that many real socialists are either unwilling or unable to teach, and many liberals are unwilling to learn.

[u/Zskrabs24 → u/Aggressive-Isopod-68]

The problem isn’t a debate on theory though, it’s disagreements for approaching the application of the ideology in the real world and putting it into practice. The black and white thinking within online socialist spaces completely ignores that reality we actually live in, and ignores the fact that socialism cannot be made a reality overnight and those who recognize an incremental approach is necessary are instantly labeled libs and banned. It’s always revolution now (from behind their keyboard) and anything less is not worth my time, despite having built no class solidarity or laying any groundwork that would make an actual revolution a success, or you’re banned.

And they do apply the black and white thinking against morality too. Somehow just mentioning a trolly is somehow ban worthy in most spaces, as if harm reduction in and of itself is somehow against theory and morality. There’s a world where you can reduce harm in the now and long term, and make continued progress towards socialism/communism, without having to murder my neighbors in a violent revolution.

[u/Zskrabs24 → u/Aggressive-Isopod-68]

The problem isn’t a debate on theory though, it’s disagreements for approaching the application of the ideology in the real world and putting it into practice. The black and white thinking within online socialist spaces completely ignores that reality we actually live in, and ignores the fact that socialism cannot be made a reality overnight and those who recognize an incremental approach is necessary are instantly labeled libs and banned. It’s always revolution now (from behind their keyboard) and anything less is not worth my time, despite having built no class solidarity or laying any groundwork that would make an actual revolution a success, or you’re banned.

And they do apply the black and white thinking against morality too. Somehow just mentioning a trolly is somehow ban worthy in most spaces, as if harm reduction in and of itself is somehow against theory and morality. There’s a world where you can reduce harm in the now and long term, and make continued progress towards socialism/communism, without having to murder my neighbors in a violent revolution.

[u/Aggressive-Isopod-68 → u/Zskrabs24]

The harm reduction angle is a Whig argument and I don't just mean that by analogy. Harm reduction was literally one of the argument made by Whigs against abolitionists. Yet it was struggle that freed the slaves, not reform. Abolitionists did not sacrifice their principals for short term gains under the Whigs because they realized, as we should realize, that reforms are illusory.

"Harm reduction" is a manifestation of a principal of class collaboration, not class struggle, the root belief under this principal is that of the State is a neutral tool of class reconciliation rather than class conflict. This is historically incorrect and a result of incorrect education. A scientific analysis of history gives us this principal of class conflict.

There is a reason reform movements have only succeeded in American politics three times (Lincoln, FDR, Johnson) and that is because of class struggle by American workers, not the State. There is no large social movement to propel AOC or Bernie into power like there was for Lincoln or FDR. There is no movement strong enough to extract concessions from the State like with Johnson or FDR.

At the end of the day, reform is the practice of seeking short term gains at the expense of long term losses. The same strategy as liberals.

[u/Zskrabs24 → u/Aggressive-Isopod-68]

So again, all I’m hearing from you is that bloody revolution is the only solution right? That’s exactly what I’m talking about. It’s either we must rise up now or all other solutions are half measures and don’t bother. Let’s keep things as they are because we’ve made perfect the enemy of good.

If it’s the case that revolution is the only option, where’s the momentum for that? Who is organizing arms against the state? Oh right, it doesn’t exist. It’s literally a LARP. Can’t even organize a general strike because nobody wants to take the steps to organize labor and form the class consciousness necessary to even mount a revolution in the first place.

[u/Aggressive-Isopod-68 → u/Zskrabs24]

No, you misunderstand revolutionary politics. Revolutions aren't won through force of arms alone, but are reliant on parallel institutions to assume state power. It is equally important to build independent, socialist institutions to fill state roles.

Revolutions are not spontaneous acts of random violence or the seizure of existing government but rather the substitution of one state for another.

There are plenty of socialist orgs building parallel power, whether that be FRSO, PSL, IWW, or DSA. Just because success is not instantaneous does not mean these organizations aren't succeeding in their goals and growing.

[u/Zskrabs24 → u/Aggressive-Isopod-68]

That’s not how most leftist subs operate though. I understand the points your making, but when I suggest organizing and building movements like what you’re describing, while simultaneously advocating for good policies that help people now (or at least the best of what’s available right now), I’m banned for suggesting we vote for someone/anyone who isn’t satan himself in the meantime. Literally banned for suggesting we vote tactically and not to feel superior in our losses.