What actually contributes to low birth rate?

[u/UdontneedtoknowwhoIm]

Asking here for most of the world, since this is happening for a lot of places, and even places with high birth rate many are declining. What actually contributes to low birth rate in people? Many countries have tried giving out welfare for parents and it doesn’t work as well as planned. Not really living cost either. The amount of time off work is mentioned, but in many countries changing that also doesn’t help. Rurality is a big factor, but for many definitely not all the factor, and why is city birth rate lower anyway?

[u/act1295]

I don’t understand why people avoid talking about the obvious: Contraception. When contraception became relatively safe, acceptable in society, and easy to produce en masse, birth rates started dropping. Places with more access to contraceptives have lower birth rates. It’s not rocket science.

[u/KulturaOryniacka → u/act1295]

women's liberation and men's apathy

if I, as a woman, have to work then come home do chores and take care of kids because man well, doesn't lift a finger...I say thank you and stay single

it's not worth it

[u/act1295 → u/KulturaOryniacka]

But before contraception the choice was between a life of celibacy and settling for less than ideal partners. Historically most women chose the latter. Contraceptives provided women with the option to be free without giving up on dating and sex. I believe this also influences the behavior of man because before contraceptives their choices were: a. Celibacy, b. Have kids and see after them, c. Have kids, abandon them, and live as an outcast. This forced them to make choices and live up to their consequences. Contraception allows people to have their cake and eat it too.

[u/BigBeefy22 → u/KulturaOryniacka]

I think men feel the same way. I don't think anyone wants to work all day then come home and take care of home life. It's a lot of work to run a home especially with kids under 5, and people simply don't want to or can't work full time and take care of the home.

While in the recent past, a home and family could be managed on one income, but now it's impossible and dual income is required for the average couple.

In the more distant past, people in general worked longer/harder but society was set up differently back then. If you lived on a farm, you basically worked from home and could manage work and the kids. If you worked in a trade, society was set up where you had friends and family in a tight community. Takes a village and all that.

I really think the biggest contributing factor is needing a dual income to run a home. Unless you're wealthy enough to afford good daycare and a maid for the house, it's not feasible for most people to be gone from their home for 10 hours a day, and still be able to have kids and run a home. Or at least, it's not for most people.

[u/reddit_is_geh → u/act1295]

Because contraception lead to MORE children, not less.

We've done research into this. The pill has no impact. The cause for the lowering birth rate is always cultural. Cultural just stops valuing or caring about having kids, so people decide to go live their 20s rather than start families. By the time they are "ready", women are past their fertility window.

[u/act1295 → u/reddit_is_geh]

I'm sorry but the source you provided seems to be a documentary and I couldn't find any evidence to support your claim that contraception leads to more children. In fact, I found the opposite. The World Fertility and Family Planning 2020 UN Report states that:

A general pattern is evident: over time, countries move from a situation of higher fertility and lower contraceptive use, to lower fertility and higher contraceptive use, with some exceptions, particularly in the médium to high-contraceptive use countries (p.18).

Besides, I believe you are contradicting yourself because if the option to wait is available for women it's only because of contraceptives. I don't think that cultural values are as important as the biological ability to bear children, because even if people didn't care for children they'd probably still value sex. I do agree that cultural values influence the availability of contraceptives.

[u/reddit_is_geh → u/act1295]

Sorry, I meant unplanned pregnancies, and after the pill was introduced, more kids were born. People were having much more sex after the pill which lead to more kids.

[u/subheight640 → u/reddit_is_geh]

Got any references?

[u/reddit_is_geh → u/subheight640]

www.birthgap.org

They have a documentary too that they just released that's heavily sourced.

[u/Entire-Ad2058 → u/reddit_is_geh]

Thanks, this is interesting.

[u/illisten → u/act1295]

True, contraception allowed women to use sex to improve their lives without penalty of bearing children

Moreover, women's liberation allowed women to select for men for entertainment rather than survival, which in turn raised the bar so that more of men can't pass.

Welfare states allow women to depend on government rather than their husbands.

You can see that in regions of the world where life is objectively harder the birth rates are higher. That's why most developed nations have to rely on immigration to avoid demographic collapse.

[u/Faiiiiii → u/act1295]

This is the right answer, but it also reflects a shift in priorities (or culture), which some might call selfishness. Many people around me say they would rather go on vacation twice a year than have children.

In today's world, there are many alternatives to having children. If someone wants something cute to take care of or cuddle, a pet can fulfill that role.

Those who blame low salaries or work-life balance for declining birth rates may not be considering the full picture. Ultimately, it comes down to priorities, just like a friend who never shows up because they're always "too busy," yet somehow always have time for their hobbies.

[u/UdontneedtoknowwhoIm → u/act1295]

Idk do people avoid it but yeah contraception is a clear major factor. it hijacks the brain response to sex and allow people unlimited sex without kids, while the need to have sex evolved with the need to reproduce. In fact, many countries specifically introduce birth control to reduce birth rate.

However, there are places with prevalence of contraception but higher birth rate like Vietnam, Mongolia, or places with very low contraception use with very low birth rate like most of Eastern Europe or Japan. What would explain this discrepancy? And many countries make contraception prescribed only yet they’re common, the opposite for others, so would black market contraception take over if the government starts discouraging them?

[u/act1295 → u/UdontneedtoknowwhoIm]

Where did you get the information about low contraception use? I’m not aware of the exact numbers, but I do know that in Japan both the pill and condoms are widespread. What’s more, during the US occupation contraceptives were aggressively pushed in order to quell the population.

In the case of Vietnam and Mongolia, I believe these countries are highly conservative and sexist societies, where women are traditionally left without much agency. This is also true for Japan but as I’ve already mentioned the US occupation directly intervened in this regard.

I don’t think the government can actually discourage contraception. Once Pandora’s box is open there’s no chance of closing it again. Once contraceptives become accepted and common in a society it’s very hard to go back. I do believe black markets could be a factor but in general, it’s very hard for one government to micromanage its population’s sex life.

[u/UdontneedtoknowwhoIm → u/act1295]

Ik a couple friends who date Japanese people, and they say in Japan it’s common for marriage to be either romantic, sexual, or partnership, and unlike popular perception one night stand culture is very strong in men(while maintaining their partner).

If the data is self report. Won’t be surprised if like most data in Japan it’s disingenuous

Vietnam and Mongolia are sexist societies but that clearly doesn’t explain everything. Not all men and not only men who would want a child. It’s true that women are less likely to, but that just begs the question of what we could do to change it.

Many suggest that it’s goverments overeach that’s causing people stress in life and it can be true, but also many countries with low birth rate doesn’t have that much of an overreach government. Others suggest crime, but again many of these countries the crime rate are extremely low.

A good question would be whether we could encourage childbearing despite the availability of contraception, since their explosion clearly signifies a society more obsessed with sex than childrearing, and a weird thing is many societies with low birth rate isn’t as obsessed with sex as others.

[u/act1295 → u/UdontneedtoknowwhoIm]

It seems as the data comes only from women, so yeah gender roles may play a big role on the data. Furthermore, as I mentioned there was a huge trend of contraceptive use during the 20th century in Japan (and also in Korea btw), so maybe we are still seeing consequences of that.

In any case Mongolia and Vietnam are interesting cases where contraceptives are available, women apparently have freedom, and they still have a seizable birth rate. I still believe that traditional Asian values that put family above the individual play a big role in this.

Edit: after looking into it it seems as Vietnam’s birth rate is also rapidly declining below replacement level. Mongolia’s is also declining but at a slower pace.

[u/LycheeRoutine3959 → u/act1295]

I don’t think the government can actually discourage contraception. Once Pandora’s box is open there’s no chance of closing it again

of course they could. Make it illegal, prevent manufacturing, prevent importing.

Some will still happen of course, but when an activity is made illegal you get less of it. I dont advocate for this, i think the solution is cultural at this point, but ist not like we couldnt do something if the government was so motivated.

[u/UdontneedtoknowwhoIm → u/act1295]

This map made off the reference of Save the Children State of the World’s Mothers report. I’ll link you the papers when I find it.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:SOWM2010_modern_contraception.svg

But ur right that the Japan data is fishy

[u/KulturaOryniacka → u/UdontneedtoknowwhoIm]

it hijacks the brain response to sex and allow people unlimited sex without kids

you clearly have no idea how BC impacts women's libido...it has nothing to do with unlimited sex, it's the opposite-no sex at all

[u/UdontneedtoknowwhoIm → u/KulturaOryniacka]

I mean I say it allows unlimited sex not that it encourages it

Thx for providing the perspective on women’s libido. I’m not sure whether there’s enough information on the direct effect on contraception methods (including both for men like condoms and women like pills) on sex life at the time of its introduction for obvious reasons, i was unfortunately going off anecdotes. If you have some light to shed on this pls let me know.