A bit of analysis of JP 140 speedruns

[u/Ivalia]

http://www46.atwiki.jp/mh4gta/pages/27.html seems to be a decent source for JP speedrun records. I'm gonna take a look at a few of the most popular monsters and compare weapon clear times. Keep in mind that solo speedrun isn't always the best criteria for judging if a weapon is good. Also Relic weapons can't be used, so certain weapons may suffer a bit from that. Disabling items (traps, flash/sonic bombs, etc.) are not allowed either.

First up, Apex Rajang.

http://www46.atwiki.jp/mh4gta/pages/8.html

Fastest: Seregios GS (7:10), Dalamadur IG (7:51), Seregios Bow (8:54). Also HBG, CB, DB are all in 9-10 min range.

Slowest: Seregios HH (14:42), Seregios GL (13:10), Gogmazios Lance (12:43)

A few interesting things:

1. Almost all the best records are done with either Seregios or Gogmazios weapons (Sleep is better than element vs rajang due to the long wakeup animation and huge raw weakness). Basically slower or ranged weapons use Seregios and faster ones use Gogmazios. Exceptions are CB (Akantor) and IG (Dalamadur), and Dalamadur LS is only ~10s slower than the Gogmazios one.

2. All armor sets have Tremor Res, even ranged ones (Bow has a set without it and only 13s slower than top record). Pretty much all of them has weakness exploit/ruthlessness as well (except Pierce HBG).

3. The lance top record is done without any evasion or guard skills. Seregios lance Evasion+3 build is 2:40 slower than the top record.

4. Slash Axe did not use Evade Extender, only Evade+1.

5. GL does not have any artillery (even felyne bombardier) or guard skills, just evade +1. (Seregios GL is Long lv 5)

Next, Teostra.

http://www46.atwiki.jp/mh4gta/pages/12.html

Fastest: Daora IG (7:56), Fatalis GS (8:28), Seregios Bow (10:32). DB, SnS and LS are all faster than 11 mins as well.

Slowest: Seregios LBG (17:16), Shagaru HH (15:39), Shagaru Lance (13:48)

Things of note:

1. This time is pretty much all Ice/Dragon Weapons, which makes sense. Exceptions being Dalamadur LS, ranged weapons and Ceadeus CB (With Load Up).

2. No one used any guard or evasion skills, except HBG with Evade+1 and Evade Dist.

3. GL doesn't have any Artillery skills again (Shagaru GL is Normal lv 5)

4. No one is using Elemental attack skills. Probably because Teostra is weaker to raw damage than dragon.

Another one, Apex Seregios.

http://www46.atwiki.jp/mh4gta/pages/14.html

Fastest: White Fatalis IG (6:50), Ivory Lagi DB (8:39), Akantor CB (9:16). GS and LS are between 10 and 11 mins.

Slowest: Gold/Silver Rath LBG (18:49), Seregios Bow (18:48), Seregios Lance (15:44)

Missing: Hunting Horn (No Entry)

Things:

1. This time it's back to Seregios for slower weapons, and faster weapons use thunder. Exceptions are ranged weapons and Akantor CB (with Load Up again)

2. Seregios LBG is not the best for LBG this time, as Seregios is weaker to Pierce than Normal S. However Seregios Bow is still the best bow cuz Pierce Bows are interesting...

3. Pretty much no one has evade/guard skills again. Exceptions are Evade+1/+3 for GL, and Evade Dist Up for LBG.

4. HBG uses Gravios Gigacannon with no Evade Dist (11:35). Didn't know soloing 140 with that can be a good idea...

5. DB uses Thunder Atk+3 this time. Yay for elemental damage. However other weapons still don't use it, including Rajang SnS.

6. Seregios GL doesn't care about Artillery again

[u/[deleted]]

So these monsters can be killed efficiently without evade/guard skills? I feel nooby again.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Not necessarily.

One thing that is important to understand about speedruns is that most speedrunners will reset if things don't go their way. For this reason, Evasion skills aren't ideal for speedrunning. Such skills do not improve the time of your fastest runs; rather, they make it easier to succeed more often.

This is an important point that so many people don't grasp. Speedrunning tactics are not meant to be consistent or efficient. Rather, they're gambles that sacrifice potential successes in favor of the single eventual success being a greater one. If it is possible to dodge an attack without Evasion, it doesn't make a lick of sense to use Evasion even if that attack is hard to dodge because to speedrunners, it doesn't matter how many successes there are; there only needs to be one and it needs to be fast.

I find that a lot of people fall into this trap when it comes to skill sets and honing. They'll try to replicate the offensive skillsets that speedrunners use and home for Attack thinking "they just won't get hit". These people conflate "speedrunning tactic" with "good play".

For most hunters, it doesn't matter how fast one hunt went; it matters how many hunts were successes. When you watch a speedrun you aren't seeing the hours and hours of resetting that preceded them. Speedrunners are usually good players, but they still fuck up and get hit and cart. That Evasion skill may have saved them from being hit. That Life or Defense hone may have saved their ass from a cart. They don't use those, though, because it means that the one successful run would have been slightly slower.

So don't feel "nooby". The speedrunners are making good decisions, but their goal is different from yours. Grab those Evasion/Guard skills. Anyone who pretends that they can consistently avoid getting hit is delusional. Your goal is not to get one fast run, but to have a dozen successful runs. A good player is not someone for whom things always go right. A good player is someone who can finish the hunt when things go wrong.

[u/Vincent210 → u/[deleted]]

While this is true, at the same time another thing people tend to forget to take away from speed runs is that, while yeah you can do a hunt and not get hit, that last part, the not getting hit, isn't merely based on reaction speed or timing or these other sort of naturally ingrained metrics of skill that come from other games.

I think the Apex Rajang runs you see with Great Sword players are one of the best examples. If you watch the video(s) one time, you might think "cool, that's the kind of hunter I aspire to be! I which I had reactions like that!"

Watch the video(s) several times, and you realize those weren't reactions at all.

I think sometimes people don't realize how much Simon Says goes into playing Monster Hunter really well. For example, I just got done with a "perfect" (it's not a speed-run, but I didn't get hit) run of the Savage Deviljho in the expedition as a Lance. I didn't accomplish this because I have any incredible reaction time or decision making skills. I did it because I and just about anyone else with 700+ hours know the entirety of a Savage Deviljho fight pattern whether you realize it or not.

Or in other words, say it with my guys!

I WHIP, MY HAIR, BACK AND, FORTH. ABOUT FACE. POUNCE. THAT ANNOYING TURN-AROUND STRIKE THAT'S REALLY FAST. STEP STEP STEP. BITE > TAIL SPIN. Stumble? Roar's a fake roar. Okay NOW for my real roar!...

The point is that while there actually is a point in one's "hunting career" (for lack of a better term/phrase) where the whole "build for attack and don't get hit" build motif becomes completely viable, it's only going to work on a monster you've fought a million times.

To be honest, I bet most of those speed runners could recreate a similar score to their speed-run given a small sample space of tries to work with. But I'm only confident in that because I have an idea of how many times they must've repeated the monster, and therefore have a feeling they could literally write you an instruction manual on the fight from what they do when first spotted all the way until a few minutes in with pretty good accuracy. Monsters aren't exactly the creative and mysterious sort!

[u/Dawncaller → u/[deleted]]

This is the best comment I've read on this subreddit so far. It's just so true.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

YES YES SO MUCH THIS YES

[u/baratacom → u/[deleted]]

Aaaaaaand save.

Seriously, that was beautiful, and can be applied to way more than just MH.

[u/ABeardedPanda → u/[deleted]]

Way back in MHFU there was a montage of a guy who could consistently dodge basically every attack with no evade skills.

If you didn't know how it works, every dodge animation has invincibility frames (I-Frames) the dive to cover has a ton of I-frames but the animation is long , you need to stand back up and you have to have your weapon sheathed.

What Evade+1/2/3 does is increase the number of I-frames you have for each dodge. That's why it feels so much easier.

If you have almost robotic timing you can use the base I-frames to dodge most attacks. If you could do this consistently (which is extremely hard) then you could just skill for things that make you do more damage and not have to waste 10-20 points on evasion.

[u/Jasushi → u/ABeardedPanda]

Is there some sort of gif or video or chart or anything that will help me understand where my I frames are, kinda like those hitbox gifs or whatever for fighting games? This is something I never got the hang of in MH. I certainly can't count the frames of a roll, so I have no idea when the invulnerability period ends.

[u/roberh → u/Jasushi]

I have successfully evaded some roars without evasion skills, and it feels to me that the i-frames are towards the middle of the animation. You can start rolling too late, so the animation is stopped; or too early so that the roar affects you after you stand (but your i-frames avoided the beginning of the roar). Doing this often lets you learn when to roll.

[u/Ceratic → u/ABeardedPanda]

Mazeron!

[u/S43Z4R → u/ABeardedPanda]

almost robotic timing

Kinda wanna see how a Tool Assisted Speedrun of whatever MH looks like now. If there's any,that is!

[u/Chrisco959 → u/ABeardedPanda]

Mazareon or something like that

[u/Ivalia → u/[deleted]]

Yeah. I'm especially surprised that lance/GL don't really use evade or guard skills. And SA evade extender isn't necessary.

[u/Octopictogram → u/Ivalia]

Extender is just nice since SA moving unsheathed godly slow, and sheathing and running has a major slow down as you sheath.

Extender allows you to roll to chase the monster.

[u/Vincent210 → u/Octopictogram]

I think he's surprised it isn't necessary for that reason. As in, that the player for the speedrun was able to consistently keep up with the monster for dealing optimal DPS without the extra distance per roll giving them a stronger gap closer for when the monster moves.

[u/Laxaria]

After Bowing Rajang with Termor Res I can see why the skill is just that important; the huge amount of openings it offers in a solo situation is insane.

With that said, thanks for breaking some of this down. I think it's impressive that the Bow reaches competitive times, more so knowing that the GS is an overall strong weapon in speedruns for predictive, anticipatory play, and the IG's just broken strong.

[u/CidImmacula → u/Laxaria]

even if I know how to dodge the Tremor from Rajang, I really feel bad every time I do so, I could've nocked or fired a shot instead of rolling, and maybe a power-shot too depending on the move.

Tremor Res against Rajang is almost bread'n'butter level of simplicity and effectiveness.

I wish I wasn't so lazy in making a specific set for a specific situation though. = A=)

I do wonder if the Apex Steve bow could be faster, I should recheck the site at work and see if there's a vid of the run. I've been wondering if those Hitzones are affected with the same principles as Pellet S/Focus Arc Shot where in the case of multiple hitzones, the higher-damage hitzone takes precedence..There's a spot in front of Seregios where it's easy to hit the belly, but can be a bit too low so sneaking an arrow in there without hitting the back hitzone is incredibly hard...

[u/[deleted] → u/CidImmacula]

I think that's the reason Tremor Res is used for Rajang in those speedruns. It actually opens up an offensive opportunity that otherwise wouldn't be available since rolling cancels your charge.

In Steve's case, I imagine using a different Bow might be helpful, since Steve isn't all that well-suited for Rapid. The lack of crafted Spread/Pierce Bows with Power Shot is probably the issue here.

[u/FallenEinherjar → u/Laxaria]

I think we can agree speedruns are about actually creating a vacuum of play. The player mastery is so big that openings are plenty.

And now looking at damage across weapons, Bow is potentially one of the strongest weapons per attack, combine that with mastery to avoid all attacks, hit all shots to a weak point and you are set.

[u/Scadabalu]

HBG probably used trajectory instead of Evade Dist

It supplements the evade dist by expanding critical range by a wide margin for safer attack openings and more consistent damage

I prefer it

OP is the one who showed me that info a few days ago so I'm just an ass

[u/Ivalia → u/Scadabalu]

Trajectory is on pretty much all Pierce HBG set ups. Most Pierce HBGs use Seregios and evade dist though, instead of gravios

[u/Scadabalu → u/Ivalia]

I think I saw a lot of white fatty/red fatty too last time I checked

Maybe Google was fucking with me though when I translated

[u/Ivalia → u/Scadabalu]

One of the fatty guns is being used a bit as normal S to replace the Griscannon, because it has 1 extra slot

[u/Scadabalu → u/Ivalia]

Also not crippling slow reload I imagine

[u/Ivalia → u/Scadabalu]

Iirc Griscannon can reload normal 2 with fast..

[u/Scadabalu → u/Ivalia]

My bad I just immediately thought Giga not Gris

[u/Scadabalu → u/Ivalia]

Also

Maybe I just couldn't find the right spot with Google translating

But it didn't seem anyone has really run G3☆ Tidal Narjarala

Any reason you think why?

[u/[deleted] → u/Scadabalu]

Because no one likes fighting Tidal Najarala.

One thing to remember when looking at these runs is that popularity is a factor. The GS is definitely one of the most powerful weapons, but the fact that it is the more popular one is a huge factor in the reason for it having top slot.

I think it's particularly interesting to look at the disparity in times between G3 Teostra and 140 Teostra and look at the Bow times versus the GS times. For the G3 Bow is only seconds slower, while for 140 it's minutes.

[u/Scadabalu → u/[deleted]]

I just figured MoHun is so popular someone would've gotten a round to it eventually

[u/Ivalia → u/[deleted]]

I think for Teostra the 140 one has stronger fire aura, which messes up bows a bit more

[u/Ivalia → u/Scadabalu]

Probably people only care about speed running the hardest things. Things like 140 blue Kutku don't get much love either

[u/MetaMythical → u/Ivalia]

I want to see how fast one of these guys can kill a kut-ku now.

[u/Kallik → u/Ivalia]

Can you translate the skills/HBG used for the Apex Jang solo? Really curious on that one. I'm not fully understanding what google translate is trying to tell me with the skills.

For the first one it looks like recoil down 1, combination pro, pierce up? Then ate for temper I'm guessing.

Second place looks like it is using C+2, WE, earplus and EE. Then... I'm guessing normal up since they ate for I'm assuming sharpshooter or whatever the normal up food is called.

The lack of Ruthlessness on that one seems weird to me. A pierce 1 or 2 going head to torso should hit 2 or 3 times between head and torso making full use of that ruthlessness unless they simply couldn't fit it in the set.

[u/Ivalia → u/Kallik]

1 is Seregios HBG. 2 and 3 are White Fatalis.

Skills for 1 is recoil down+1, fleet feet, Pierce up, combo+, Tremor Res, Trajectory. Ate for temper.

2 is challenger 2, weakness exploit, earplugs, evade dist, normal up, tremor res (also protection-10 but that doesn't matter). Ate for sharpshooter and something else..

3 is 2 except replace weakness exploit and earplugs with Ruthlessness (and no protection-10). Ate for felyne sharpshooter and temper

[u/Kallik → u/Ivalia]

Thank you very much! Recoil+1 means they're still at "average" recoil. Seems crazy to me they didn't push it down further, though looking at W. Fatalis gun, it has average base as well and neither of them ran recoil down+1. I'm guessing that means they strictly used Pierce 1's then.

[u/Ivalia → u/Kallik]

They just want to shoot Pierce 1 I guess. Pretty reasonable given rajang's size

[u/Kallik → u/Ivalia]

I guess so. I always thought pierce 2's gave the benefit of hitting the tail as well more often than not or giving the option to go through an arm into the head/torso.

[u/Ugga_Ugga]

Just curious why you didn't mention the times for the Slash Axe? SA is my main weapon so that's why I noticed.

[u/Ivalia → u/Ugga_Ugga]

I'm lazy so I only list the top few and the bottom few :P. SA is pretty much middle of the pack. You can check the detailed clear time in the original pages

[u/[deleted] → u/Ugga_Ugga]

Haha that's the first thing I looked for as well :C

[u/[deleted]]

The Gunlances... are't using Artillery??? Wh... How... What are they using instead???

[u/Nekolo → u/[deleted]]

pew pewing stuff is actually pretty inefficient. Simply poking jabbing and slashing is better dps for the gunlance than explosions.

But no one plays gunlance to not pew pew things.

[u/ManeiDomini → u/Nekolo]

Which is odd, because back in 3U my killtimes decreased massively when I started complementing my pokes with shelling.

[u/Ivalia → u/ManeiDomini]

You can and should use shells as a way to connect your combos. Relying on shells as your main dps is inefficient though. Shells are great for doing damage to hard parts, but they cannot compete with raw damage on weak spots. If they could they would be overpowered like kelbi bow was.

[u/ManeiDomini → u/Ivalia]

Shells only is actually viable with a Wide GL, but I was wondering if these people shelled at all during their speedruns. I can't imagine playing GL without shelling at all during the entire fight.

[u/Ivalia → u/ManeiDomini]

They probably used shell as a way to connect their combos, but mostly stab. I think back in MHFU the efficient way to play GL was never shell, but back then GL pretty much had no combos and you couldn't mix shell and stab very well

[u/ManeiDomini → u/Ivalia]

Never played FU personally.

That must've sucked.

[u/mehxican → u/[deleted]]

apparently a playstyle that leaves out the most notable part of the gunlance is better for the gunlance

[u/fatpolomanjr → u/mehxican]

I almost made my new character a Lancer instead of Gunlancer because of this. Until I really got into Wide gunlances. I mean without the boom what's the point of a boom stick?

[u/mehxican → u/fatpolomanjr]

Amen

[u/LordHaari → u/mehxican]

This was true in 3U, for what it's worth. I can't speak for 2nd-gen or earlier 3rd-gen titles, but shelling fell off in comparison to stabbing. GL's X+A was slightly faster and stronger and poison or blast filled the gaps to make stabbing way more profitable than implementing shelling.

Is it weird that I liked it more that way? I liked GL's more fluid combo tree compared to Lance's.

[u/FallenEinherjar → u/[deleted]]

Pokes to weakpoints are always stronger than shells. Shells shine when attacking hard monster parts.

If you are a JP speedrunner, you are attacking weakpoints 100% of the time as seen in the videos.

[u/Ivalia → u/[deleted]]

Standard dps skills like challenger honed blade razor sharp etc.

[u/Ivalia → u/[deleted]]

yeah hammer isn't that great at Teostra. If you use it in multiplayer though the KO probably helps.

Bio researcher is just a nice QoL skill for teo. A few others used it too

[u/Arterra → u/[deleted]]

Hahaha that's quite funny. Tactics may change, but weapons remain. And hammer has always been about consistent, aimed DPS.

Since it's so much easier to disable monsters for long periods high burst weapons are king, but for general situations it can be hammer that causes those big openings.

[u/[deleted] → u/Arterra]

True but mounting has edged into KO's space. Generally mounts are easier to pull off compared to KOs. In my last few GQs with just ONE IG user and 3 other para weapons the monster was mounted close to 6-8 times on average. It did not stand a chance.

[u/Vincent210 → u/Arterra]

"General Situations" is sort of an immaterial term. I mean if you wanna talk from neutral (monster is alert, un-downed, and attacking) I always kind of thought of that as when hammer is weakest.

Hammer's tend to shine in team comp when the monster is downed/disabled, but NOT KO'd, since you get to stroll in, target the head (meaning you're doing your optimal damage) and then score a KO in order to extend everyone's opening on the monster and continue to easy-target the important part of the monster.

Given that reality, if someone intends to play solo, or has other options in their regular play group (Charge Blade, primarily, but Hunting Horn as well) then I can see why they'd form a negative opinion about hammer.

A moving Rajang or a tall-standing Deviljho are going to make you work unreasonably hard to consistently hit the head, and so the fall-off in damage you'd naturally experience is going to show.

I'm going for the 100-hunts-on-everything challenge, and I must resolutely say hammer is easily the hardest weapon to want to play consistently and to play well consistently. Granted, it's one of those weapons where you can immediately see your contribution to a team comp because KO and Exhaust, but after 260+ hunts with a Charge Blade I'm so spoiled on that front, and if I just want high damage numbers and utility Hunting Horn isn't going anywhere.

So while my analysis is perhaps a little more weighed than "good-for-nothing now" I kinda can understand the sentiment.

[u/Vincent210]

You can have a lot of fun with these results pages by letting google translate work it's "magic."

[u/AquaBadger]

Ive looked through this stuff a fair bit (mostly interested in seeing what people run of GS, bow and lance). Have you ever seen hammer have a good time, and any idea on why hammer is not popular this iteration? I know many people say its weak, but is it a lack of good endgame hammer section, monster roster/behavior changes or its just less flashy than other options and not enough people play it to showcase its power?

[u/Ivalia → u/AquaBadger]

Iirc it's pretty good vs Garuga because the big weakness in the head (and pretty tough elsewhere). Popularity could be a factor but I think hammer is a bit on the weak side because it hasn't gotten any buffs for a long time while others have.

[u/[deleted] → u/AquaBadger]

It's because there's another weapon that can KO less reliably (but still can pull off 1-2 KOs a hunt), but can:

• Block better than lance
• Reach almost as high as SA
• deal heavy burst damage similar to GS
• Dish out elemental hurt ala SnS, DB

[u/Sethyboy0 → u/AquaBadger]

Because CB can KO way easier while doing more damage and taking none. It does everything a hammer can do but does it better and does more.

[u/kabuto_mushi]

Kinda sad that Lance is last in everything. I guess you pay for survivability with longer kill times?

In any case, maybe I should pick up IG again...

[u/[deleted] → u/kabuto_mushi]

Why don't you try to be the one who makes the best speed times with a lance? Don't give up!

[u/SheepOC → u/kabuto_mushi]

lance pays for being slow moving. This is made up in general with evade skills, but evade skills take away slots that could be used for more dmg. This is somewhat true as well for the Gunlance.