Early Whiteflame Torrent test results

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It's been broken down that it's on a 3ish second cooldown and then after that it will randomly activate on the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd "normal" hit then going back on cooldown. Suntide has a nice breakdown

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u/Gustav_EK Generalist 2d ago

I watched the video and it does an excellent job of explaining it. You definitely could have fooled me into thinking it was just a 25% chance.

So in reality it doesn't actually matter that much if weapons attack faster or not.

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u/-Ophidian- 2d ago

It does matter in order to realistically get the proc barriers off on their ~3 second cooldown. Slower weapons won't hit consistently enough, and will therefore "waste" time of it.

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u/Quadrophenic 2d ago

But, counterintuitively, it gets better the more time you "waste." Remember that when you're not hitting the monster, you're not getting value out of any other skill either.

Think about it like this: in the extreme case, where every single hit you make is off cooldown, you get a check 1/3 hits.

If you're attacking very fast, you get a check every 3 seconds, which is going to be way less than 1/3 hits.

This is not a reason to attack slower; but the more time you spend not attacking, the more value you're going to get out of this skill relative to others.

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u/bigfootmydog 2d ago

but since the proc is flat 50 damage on 3sec cooldown it's not gonna be better on lower hit rate weapons because they still have to abide by the 3s rule just like the dual blade user. The slower weapon is still 1/3 hits + 3 sec cooldown just because they might not be actively attacking during that 3sec cooldown period or charging up another attack doesn't necessarily guarantee you meet that 1/3 hit chance. comparatively a weapon like duel blades is going to proc this off cooldown almost immediately and meet that 1/3 hit condition faster meaning faster weapons proc it quicker and in doing so put on cooldown faster meaning from the very first proc they are more efficient and additively more efficient than slower weapons over the course of it being procced. in a 10 minute hunt it has the potential to be procced 200 times, does great sword even attack 200 times in 10 minutes?. let alone 600? which is what you'd need to reliably proc it off cooldown.

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u/Quadrophenic 2d ago

The question is not how often we proc it.

The question is how much damage do we deal via other means every time we proc it.

Dual blades may proc it faster, in your scenario, but they're also dealing way more damage per proc via other means. Which, relatively, weakens the skill.

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u/Zarerion 2d ago

I think what's interesting regardless of weapon type is that the better the player is and the higher their dps output, the worse this skill becomes, because the more damage is dealt while the skill is on cooldown, the more it is wasted. Speedrunners use every single possible second to dps so comparatively, their value for a flat 50 dmg every 3 seconds + however logn it takes to trigger is a lot lower than for someone more casual that just inherently spreads out their damage more.

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u/Quadrophenic 2d ago

Yes, absolutely. Hitting better HZs also makes it worse. So for Speedrunners, these have no chance against Artian.

That said...I believe the best-case damage difference is in the single-digits percent. So the question is just "how quickly does that number drop as you deviate from perfect play?" And that will require some more involved testing, but I have a feeling it's going to end up awfully close for even Very Good Players.

We'll see how it shakes out but right now I see people waaaaaay too quick to look at the best-case numbers and say "oh it's worse" and move on.

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u/No_Priority8050 2d ago

Agreed. I dont think the skill sucks at all, but people are too absorbed into the artian meta.

On paper it is an extra 50 damage. So in order to find the true value we need to compare not on a training dummy, but in actual missions. Because we have to take into account for hitting bad areas on a monster, which this skill ABSOLUTELY gains insane value off of bad hits.

If anything this skill is not a dps booster, but a dps equalizer. Which gives this skill a lot of value that the meta slaves dont see because they are actually stupid (as in they dont think, they just listen to people like ragegaming and have no coherent thought). No one can play perfectly 100% of the time, this skill equalizes that so your bad plays are actually improved.

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1

u/Temporary_Bass9554 2d ago

Nearly 100% chance on a 3sec cd for gs. Can even do successive hits sometimes depending on rotation.

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u/th5virtuos0 2d ago

Yeah. That dude is the goat. I’m pretty glad he got more recognition and materials to crunch with this gMe

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u/Derpygama 2d ago

He's awesome and I love the math breakdowns, but he does tend to forget gameplay aspects. Like the whole crit boost vs attack thing, yeah 5atk 3boost is BIS mathematically, but almost every single weapon wants a weapon specific skill and a sharpness management skill, so in reality the default is crit boost 3.

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u/Bumper_Duc 2d ago

He did say that 5AB3CB is bis only if you don’t lose white sharpness though. I remember he makes that point because some argue that 5CB3AB was better. He does have some flawed assumptions, like with his build videos, hence the casual vibe you get. But generally his maths are accurate

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u/th5virtuos0 2d ago

I mean he mainly plays LS, and and he gives me the vibe of a casual despite his nerdy spreadsheets. He probably doesn’t use Razor Sharp/Master Touch and since it’s LS, he either go 5ATK 3CB or vice verca. On the contrary, his Razor Sharp/Handicraft vs Master Touch spreadsheet is pretty practical though

Either way, yeah, that’s definitely a blindspot of his

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u/the_gaming_bur 1d ago

I want to see him test his results with different weapons. I'm curious how it would work with any ranged weapon, and I feel this skill could be decimating with Gunlance.

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u/BetaXP 2d ago

Small correction -- after the 3 second cooldown, there's a cooldown between every "normal" hit that fails. So if your first hit fails, you'll have to wait roughly 3 seconds before your second hit "counts." If that one fails, then your third hit is guaranteed. So it could be as little as 3 seconds between procs, but it could be as much as 9.

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u/Coin14 2d ago

Does 12.5 extra damage on average beat the 5 extra raw on artisan? Interesting stuff and the weapons look cool

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u/Gustav_EK Generalist 2d ago

Since the damage is flat, and if we assume that the proc rate is the same across all weapons, it'll probably be a very good option the faster the weapon attacks

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u/Coin14 2d ago

Good point, I'll try it on dual blades today

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u/Derpyologist1 2d ago

Having tested it, the element damage difference between the two is… very rough. I don’t think the whiteflame proc is enough to make up the difference

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u/Coin14 2d ago

I noticed the dragon was very low on zoh dualblades. Thanks for the heads up. I might save my mats for other things

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u/Derpyologist1 2d ago edited 2d ago

There may be some hidden interaction I am missing of course, but the worse element and the loss of triple three slot decos is just a massive downgrade that the proc does not make up. Now of course, training dummy and actual monster fight is different. Maybe the time between evading attacks is in the whiteflame proc’s favor.

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u/No_Priority8050 2d ago

It also procs off of bad hits as well, which increases your actual dps that the artian meta is weak to.

Basically dont trust anyone saying the skill is bad when the only data they use is a test dummy. For this skill there is nuance and that is where it actually comes into play.

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u/Derpyologist1 2d ago

Yeah I figured when I saw the funky calculations for it that just hitting the dummy wouldn’t be the whole story. I do think the DB is probably gonna still be worse cause of the massive elemental difference

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u/RahKiel 1d ago

Guess we'll take it on Bowgun then :D

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u/SomeStolenToast Sword & Shield 2d ago

I believe it does, the problem is the lesser deco slots and poor sharpness, so Artians beat it out generally. The 3 second cooldown on activations also means the more frequently you're attacking the less value you're getting out of it

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u/thermiteman18 2d ago

I wonder if it's a different proc rate for ranged weapons

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u/TheRealShortYeti 2d ago

My first thoughts too. Surely it must be for Pierce. I just wonder if it's by weapon and not ammo.

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u/OddCustomer4922 2d ago

If it's anythin glike Scorcher it activates on attack, not hit. So it's abysmal on things like HBG since Wyvernheart counts as a single attack and Pierce only attacks 4ish times in a cycle.

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u/TheRealShortYeti 2d ago

Interesting. A case for high capacity bowguns. Not ideal but fun.

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u/OddCustomer4922 2d ago

High cap, low power, so you can spam a lot of shots with minimal recoil. Opening Shot for reload speed.

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u/TheRealShortYeti 2d ago

That makes the Zoh HBG make a lot more sense. Its ammo made me do a double take.

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u/OddCustomer4922 2d ago

It's a decent elemental gun. I just don't see how anything eclipses Ignition 2 Wyvernheart. For some dumb reason they also made it Ignition 2 when it should be Standard 2 imo to be different.

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u/angelogabrielmendoza 2d ago

I havent done rigid testing, but 25% does seem to be the correct probability for bow

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u/TrMako 2d ago

Sure hope the proc rate takes weapon speed into account. At work, can't test now, but it would make no sense for something like sns or DB have the same proc rate as GS.

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u/Saltandpeppr 2d ago edited 2d ago

Seems to have a cooldown. Not sure if the weapon discrepancies are due to this cooldown or if they also have different proc rates.

On GS if I do raw neutral slash>recovery>do it again then the proc rate is as high as 80% in 20 hits, probably because it's very slow. But if I start doing combos then the proc rate is more 1 in 3 hits.

Edit: the combos are just regular charged slash combo, no kick/tackle/focus strike since GS procs most stuff on slashes.

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u/TrMako 2d ago

Thank you, that is very useful info. Internal cooldown would make sense, and I'm sure within a day or two people will be able to test it fully to discover if that's the case.

Edit to add, it could also maybe only proc on certain attacks like flayer or corrupted mantle. Could explain the 80% vs 33% proc rate if it's not an internal cooldown thing and instead just half those moves in the combo can't even proc it.

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u/Summonest 2d ago

It seems to have a cooldown. If you wait thirty seconds between swings, the proc rate is closer to 50%

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u/iAnhur 2d ago

LS seems to be 10% from my testing so I think it should. In 103 hits it procced 10 times

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u/Domoda 2d ago

SnS seems to be around 10% as well

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u/Weekly_Lab8128 2d ago

Someone on another thread said it seemed like 33% on greatsword

So it does seem like it's a 10% - 33% range depending on speed, and if sword & axe mode are the same for charge blade then I'm thinking it's a flat rate per weapon

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u/Gustav_EK Generalist 2d ago

To be fair it would still add up to a not insignificant amount of damage over a short hunt, even on GS

Whether that's better than artisan remains to be seen of course

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u/Solonotix 2d ago

artisan

Auto-correct has this community in shambles, lol. I think I finally typed it enough that it isn't seen as a typo.

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u/TrMako 2d ago

I mean, it's a pretty significant difference if it's a flat proc rate of about 25% to do a flat 50 damage regardless of weapon speed.

A weapon that attacks 5x faster (therefore hits 5x as many times in a hunt) will get 5x as many procs and therefore 5x the benefit from it. So a SnS could get like 3000 damage per hunt from it while a GS may only get 600. That would make it very viable on fast weapons and almost worthless on slow weapons.

But, that's all dependent on the proc rate. Looks like it is for sure a flat 50 damage regardless of weapon, so hopefully proc rate does vary by weapon or yeah, useless on slow weapons.

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u/Gustav_EK Generalist 2d ago

I've tested it on IG now and it seems it follows the same logic as the corruption mantle in terms of which attacks are allowed to proc it

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u/Quadrophenic 2d ago

There is a video that is the other top comment on this thread that explains it in depth.

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u/lXNoraXl 2d ago

Did you reset the training area between every 100 strike test? Id be interested to know if monsters build a tolerance to it like a status proc

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u/DH64 2d ago

I played with it a lot in the middle of the night after the update dropped. It doesn’t seem like it functions like status and the monster doesn’t build any tolerance to it.

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u/TheReaperAbides 2d ago

Does the actual attack itself matter? Because it does for Corrupted Mantle and Flayer, so I wouldn't put it past Capcom to stick with that pattern. When you say swings, is it the same swing?

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u/Gustav_EK Generalist 2d ago edited 2d ago

I only did triangle combo for the test but I've seen it proc on other moves

Edit: looks like it probably uses the same logic as corruption mantle

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u/TheReaperAbides 2d ago

Still, if you used the same combo consistently your results remain accurate, just wanted to be sure of that.

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u/BlackTemplar40kDeath 2d ago

Can confirm on gunlance it does not proc on any shelling attacks or wyrmstake just pokes and slaps/slams

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u/EchoesPartOne Guild Marm 2d ago

It uses the same table as Flayer and Convert Element, so yes.

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u/Redmoon383 2d ago

Wyvernheart doesn't proc it so it works like flayer I bet

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u/dingslice 2d ago

Anybody know if it procs on GL shelling? I imagine not, but it is does then that may be worth looking in to

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u/BlackTemplar40kDeath 2d ago

Can confirm on gunlance it does not proc on any shelling attacks or wyrmstake just pokes and slaps/slams 50 mv

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u/dingslice 2d ago

Math people will have to double check but I doubt it would push it over G. Lawful Bors then, oh well

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u/Dragonfantasy2 2d ago

Definitely a real contender though, brings normal shelling much closer in line

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u/Shinnyo 2d ago

Doesn't proc on GL shelling at all.

In my tests, spamming the full blast combo, it only procced when doing Y and Y + Joystick attacks. It's a good contender for the Chicken Gunlance thought.

Kinda dumb as with ChargeBlade it procs with every moves you're spamming except AED/SAED and focus attacks.

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u/tacocatz92 2d ago

Wait if it works on savage axe spin, wont that be crazy damage?

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u/Shinnyo 1d ago

No, there's a cooldown on it and it works per "attack", meaning the whole animation when you start to swing you weapon to the end, not per damage line.

It procs quite often thought, something close to every 4th attacks

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u/OnePunkArmy Insect Glaive 2d ago

The Whiteflame Torrent description mentions Scorcher - anyone know what this is?

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u/Soysauceonrice 2d ago

Rathalos set. With the rath 4p it basically doubled the damage from whiteflame procs. Pretty juicy.

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u/Khezulight 2d ago

Seems like it could be neat for weapons that don't require a specific skill. SnS for example can't run it without sacrificing sharpness management, offensive guard, or crit boost, but LS or IG can run it perfectly fine.

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u/th5virtuos0 2d ago

Depends. If you have OFG3/Handicraft 1 you can sac sharpness without much problem

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u/Admirable_Tomato 2d ago

Does Whiteflame proc on Savage Axe held spinning swings? If it procs on 25% of each spin that's an insane dps buff.

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u/HypnotizedCow 2d ago

So far it looks like the real activation formula (that ends up looking like 25%) is something like this:

Internal cool down of 3 seconds. When ready, randomly choose 1-3, and it will activate after that many normal hits. Uses same logic as corrupted mantle for what attacks can activate it (this not as sure on).

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u/Soysauceonrice 2d ago

Uses same logic as corrupted mantle for what attacks can activate it (this not as sure on)

SNS only triggers the corrupted mantle on triangle attacks, not circle. Both triangle and circle can proc whiteflame. So its not exactly the same logic as corrupted mantle.

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u/Murga787 1d ago

You are asking the real question. I get upset when I see things not getting activated by the spinning hits.

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u/kseok 2d ago edited 2d ago

My boi suntide on YT made a video extensively testing Whiteflame to discover the (potential) mechanics behind it. Give it a watch!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CdEtJYonts

edit: video TL;DR is that the procs activate based on a timer and a counter system, making it viable for hit and run playstyles

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u/typhonlol 2d ago

For CB it also didnt seem to proc at all on AED and the followup.

For BBY spam it was pretty consistently every 3rd hit or so

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u/Niclerx 2d ago

Playing with DB it feels like 8% ngl.

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u/Arkrayven 2d ago

Others are saying it uses the same "table" as Flayer and Convert Element, meaning that Blade Dance would be excluded from proccing it.

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u/Tiburt 2d ago

Saw a video where it worked on bladedance

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u/Niclerx 2d ago

That makes sense. Does helmbreaker proc it?

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u/WhatModelsYourSink 2d ago

I've been running a G. Rath IG set for fire weak monsters, seeing the extra damage is so fun so I'm super excited to farm this set out

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u/mister_peeberz 2d ago

share the set bud sounds rad, i love rathalos set bonus even outside of fire-weak monsters

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u/reddNOOB2016 2d ago

So should we make the bow?

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u/Nidiis 2d ago

Does it also work on focus strikes etc.? Or is it like Flayer where it only works on certain weapon attacks?

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u/DingleDangleDom 2d ago

Flat 50 for a bow normal seems pretty awesome, def farming this

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u/PiglettUWU 2d ago

Scorcher with the weapon is 50, 69, 104 the 50 stays the same on bad zones but the bonus scorcher damage is reduced to 61.5 and 84.

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u/theFoffo 1d ago

Youtuber "dreamingsuntide" release a video yesterday where he tested the skill and actually figured out how the skill works, go watch people!

All his vids are really good

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u/Mortagon 2d ago

Haven't unlocked the sword yet. Do I need to spam triangle attacks to proc it or are circle attacks also fine? (Sns)

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u/Domoda 2d ago

After some quick testing it procs on triangle attacks and circle attacks but only the sword hit circle attacks not the shield ones

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u/Domoda 2d ago

Seems like it might share the same attacks as corrupted. I main SnS and I’ve crafted the first stage I should rest it out

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u/Het_Kipman Charge Blade 2d ago

So it's better on faster attacking weapons?

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u/falseredstart 2d ago

Is it on timers like Powder Mantle?

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u/Sudoweedo 2d ago

Im hoping Zoh Shiahs lbg is somehow good for spread ammo. Waiting for someone to test.

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u/Merrena 2d ago

Spread is dead. Zoh is only spread 2, Nu Udra and G Dosha can have 4 shots of spread 3 and it's still bad.

Bowguns need another rework.

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u/Chewyerghost 2d ago

Hey all. Quick question. Should I try for blast lance again or just make the white flame torrent lance? I've crafted 67 lances for artian and have had no luck with a perfect roll for lance. Just wondering if this skill is better than blast. Thank you.

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u/VoidCoelacanth 2d ago

Technically, it wouldn't be "better" than Blast on slower weapons. Slower weapons - assuming you are playing solo OR nobody else in your hunt is using the same Status Effect as you - typically don't have to worry much about the resistance builds-up to status effects. Faster weapons - DB, S&S, IG for instance - will often get their first 3-4 procs done in the front half of a fight and then only see 1-2 procs more throughout due to resistance.

This ability deals flat damage and appears to be about 25% proc rate and doesn't have to concern itself with status resistance buildup, so it would appear to be a great option for those 3 fastest weapons and perhaps others as well.

A ZohShia weapon will, in terms of raw stats, be better than Artian weapons unless the Artian is perfect/god-roll. They carry the same raw Attack as 3 Artian Attack reinforcements, and as much White Sharpness as 2 Artian Sharpness reinforcements. Deco slots is where you see a loss, but how much that impacts you varies from weapon to weapon.

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u/Chewyerghost 2d ago

Thank you good sir

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u/Caridor 2d ago

No chance it procs on the switch axe sword mode fully charged extra hit?

That would be busted but you know, I live in hope.

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u/WorstHouseFrey 2d ago

Correct my ignorance but it sounds similar to blast

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u/Unihornmermad 1d ago

How does it work for bow?

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u/StriderShizard 1d ago

Gunlance shelling doesn't proc it, but does Switch Axe Full Release or elemental discharge activate it?

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u/Hot_Bookkeeper6149 1d ago

Is it better with dual blades??

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u/whatmynumber 1d ago

The question, is the skill good?

Wilds Early Whiteflame Torrent test results

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