It should also be noted that the women who typically fall for this type of thing tend to be women with self esteem issues, or other mental health problems, and most of these creeps know that.
A lot of these "pick-up artists" and their followers advocate for behavior that's effectively rape and gaslighting. Disgusting group of people.
One of the most eye opening things i read regarding shit like this was a woman who said she got the most attention in bars/clubs when she was at her worst with regards to her eating disorder. When she looked ill/vulnerable these guys would flock to her, when she looked healthy she'd get less attention.
my GF told me when we started dating that she'd noticed a pretty stark difference in the kinds of guys that were interested in her when she was skinny and waifish compared to when she was curvier. she phrased it like one group was interested in vulnerable children, and the other was interested in grown competent women.
Ah yes, of course, skinny women aren’t grown and competent so anyone attracted to them must be attracted to vulnerable people. Next you’re going to say “real women have curves”.
Ah yes, of course, skinny women aren’t grown and competent
no, of course whether or not someone is a competent adult has nothing to do with their weight.
so anyone attracted to them must be attracted to vulnerable people.
no, it's that the people who are attracted to vulnerable people go for the ones that look the most like children, and my GF happened to look significantly younger when she was skinnier. that was about her personal experience, and not a generalization.
Reread the last sentence. You could argue that there is a marked difference between “waifish” and “skinny” but I’m willing to bet that isn’t the argument that’s being made here given that they’re often used interchangeably.
the idea that body type was related to competence.
it's not. at all. she didn't become suddenly more competent when she put on weight, or less competent when she lost weight. she's literally the same person.
the point was about how the creepier, controlling dudes targeted her less when her appearance was one way, vs another, based on their (incorrect!) assumptions about her appearance.
Why not roll my eyes at both? I’m guessing that men didn’t say “I’m attracted to you because you look vulnerable or competent” she (or the commenter) guessed that for whatever reason and inadvertently (I assume) put down women that weren’t like her.
Onetime I puked in a trashcan at a bar and a guy came up to me and started hitting on me after. I wasn't drunk, I probably just accidentally ate something I was allergic to earlier in the night (soy allergies can be tricky).
I actually asked "are you hitting on me?"
And he looked surprised and looked at his friends and said "well.. yeah."
So I said "didn't you just see me throw up in that trashcan over there?"
And he goes "yeah. Honestly, it was pretty hot." And his dude friends nodded. I was just flabbergasted. I'm sure my face showed it, and I turned and walked away shaking my head without saying anything.
I don't understand how that could be viewed as hot.
I guess the only way I could see it was if it was some pavlov's dog situation where they've slept with with multiple girls they saw throwing up at parties that throwing up has become synonymous in their brain as "I'm going to get laid"
That is misinterpreted to depict men like some kind of animals. The fact is, most humans, no matter the gender, are insecure and lack confidence. The more attractive someone is the more intimidating that person is. Those men are evaluating their chances and if you are less intimidating it's less risky for them to get a rejection and that is what humans, no matter the gender, always try to circumvent, rejections. As it hurts.
That's the whole point of why extremely attractive women get approached by a totally different type of men compared to average attractive women and the type that approaches the upper end of attractiveness is naturally way rarer than the other.
I do pretty much refrain from calling anybody "loser", every person got it's weight to carry.
I'd simplify it as insecure people favoring other similarly insecure people as to ultimately end up in a "conservative" confidence-based hierarchy that the approaching side leads the interaction.
If the confidence-level would be skewed towards the one being approached then the probability is pretty low to get into a conversation at all. Imagine the situation you approach a woman who is clearly more confident than you by posture and looks and potentially more eloquent. How can you lead the conversation? The possibility is very low that she will see you as a potential conversation partner then and take on the leading role. There is a possibility that can happen, it simply is low and as aforementioned, humans try to circumvent hurting incidences aka rejection.
It's not a conscious "strategy" one chooses (also it's not "approaching individuals you are not attracted to", it's "approaching individuals you are comfortable with"), it's a formalized expression of observed human behavioral patterns. That's how a significant portion of human social interaction happens to be. A basic risk-averse and emotional-damage circumventing behavior.
I don’t see why you don’t like the term strategy in this case. It’s a decision making schema.
Also wrt you last comments, how many people do it or why they do it doesn’t mean it’s not a bad strategy. If you are so risk averse that you don’t approach people you find attractive then you won’t end up with someone you find attractive.
A strategy would for me be result of a conscious decision making process, this though is not a voluntary conscious decision that is made. People rarely are so introspective and reflective to be able to evaluate their own emotional situation like "Oh that woman is intimidating me", it's rather working in the background automatically in an autopilot.
Yet, I actually don't really care about the term used, I just picked it up so to be understandable for you. So, now you get my notion to that, but it's rather irrelevant for the topic.
If you are so risk averse that you don’t approach people you find attractive then you won’t end up with someone you find attractive.
You push it into a frame that is a misinterpretation. Let me quote my comment edit from before which you might have missed:
also it's not "approaching individuals you are not attracted to", it's "approaching individuals you are comfortable with"
There is no intended allusion for the common "shooting below your league" phrase, it's about being comfortable with approaching someone you are attracted to and subconsciously carefully assess who that is based on numerous inputs.
My friend is anorexic, and gets men complimenting her all the time. I had to pull my own father aside and ask him to please compliment her on her accomplishments, not her physical looks, and why.
Oh no, I care about people enough to want a partner I matter to so I'm more attracted to vulnerable girls than ones with perfect lives, I must be a rapist.
200 IQ shit in this thread. I guess the girl I saw at Walmart yesterday and told she made her uniform look like a designer outfit and she was destined for greater things doesn't actually have any value to me since she was kinda skinny, I must have just subconsciously thought I liked her because I wanted to rape her.
The fact you'd jump to hate immediately for a stranger is also disturbing. Get fucking help.
Fetishizing the pain people have been through is gross. There's empathy and understanding which allows for personal growth. Then there's whatever you're saying you're doing, which drags people down. If they ever got over their depression and had a better outlook on life, would you be less attracted to them?
Edit: Also I'm not a woman so thanks for that. I noticed your "all Reddit women" incel-like stealth edit.
they're the type of person who would meet me, and after casually discussing attraction, they would flip out and have a mental shutdown the moment I mention something like finding self harm scars hot or often falling in love with depressed or traumatized girls
I tend to agree with you. Sounds like he's so damaged he only feels safe around girls who are also damaged. To me, the answer would seem to be address your own shit so you can be a good partner in a healthy relationship. Until then, the poor dude will be left with either loneliness or codependent bullshit.
Also, was going to say this earlier but continued reading: username checks out.
That has nothing to do with what I or the person I'm replying to was talking about so I'm not sure why you're replying to me when you have a whole thread full of comments more closely related to what you're trying to talk about. Or do think your comment is related because you think telling someone they're destined for greater things than working at Walmart is negging them? If that's it, that's retarded and really sad and I hope she doesn't have such a fucked worldview ruining the compliment for her too. She was beaming at the first half of the compliment so for my own mental health I'm just gonna operate on the assumption that she enjoyed the "you're destined for greater things" part too.
It should also be noted that the women who typically fall for this type of thing tend to be women with self esteem issues, or other mental health problems, and most of these creeps know that.
It's by design. The 'Mystery Method' which is outlined in the book 'The Game' was designed by Mystery to attract a certain type of girl. Put simply (and kind of offensively), "hot club bimbos".
Those were the kinds of girls he considered 'high value' and those are the girls he learnt how to seduce.
Those were the kinds of girls he considered 'high value' and those are the girls he learnt how to seduce.
I think it's more that people with self esteem issues or mental health issues are easier to manipulate than someone who is well balanced, thinking clearly, and knows their worth.
Mystery genuinely wanted to be with these "hot party chicks". I think mainly because he used to receive no attention at all from them before he reinvented himself so being with these women gave him a lot of validation.
So he created a system which was designed to seduce some of these women (remember "PuA"s strike out too, they just hit on waaaay more people). It worked on those who were easy to manipulate etc, ie: Those with self esteem issues. So then the Mystery Method developed down the path of least resistance into exploiting this subset of the party girls.
That's basically how he developed the method from what I remember of the "The Game".
Approaching hundreds of people and noting down what actions and patterns led to positive responses in the people he wanted to sleep with. Then focussing his future approaches based on those behaviours.
That's what these scammers do. They send millions of emails and get some hits. The next million emails will be designed around what things got the initial hits to work.
That's why Nigerian prince emails nowadays seem so obviously fake with spelling mistakes and all. Those mistakes are purposeful, emails sent out with spelling mistakes get responses from people who don't notice the spelling mistakes. These people are far more follow through with payment.
So now their each reply they get from their emails is more likely to result in a payday since all emails they send all contain spelling mistakes and other purposeful errors.
Yeah, there's always a moment of doubt when I get one:
"Who the fuck would actually respond to this? It's so clearly a scam...... Oh yeah, idiots. Idiots would respond to this and that's exactly what they want."
Thing is, picking women up in a bar/club is largely a numbers game. Without all of the psuedo science and manipulative bullshit this clowns preach, if you approach more women, you'll hook up with more women. A nonzero percentage of the women at clubs are there to get laid the same as the men are. People swear the "Mystery Method" or whatever other PUA bullshit works because the guys who use it were just not doing anything before. They were sitting at home wondering why girls didn't materialize beside their computer desk ready to bang them. You give these guys a script, almost any script, and you tell them to go outside and start talking to women they'll become more successful than they were before because whatever they were doing previously most likely did not include talking to any actual women.
i've only read about half of "the game" but that was the impression i got, yeah. but i also think the above is true, that it's tailored to the people it's more likely to work on.
Maybe these "hot club girls" are seeing something I don't see in him, to me it just looks like someone trying way too hard. But I guess since I'm not the intended audience it's ok for me not to understand--I'm ok with never getting hit on by a guy like that!
"Mystery method" "works" on every type of girl. Not just party girls. Because, most girls are party girls at one point or another in some shape or another.
It's a lot to do with values as well. A high percentage of the "hot club bimbos" don't value guys being nice or respectful. They value opportunities for popularity and materialistic possessions.
Most people don't like being insulted. Contrary to what the "redpilled" types would have you believe the best way to attract someone is to be friendly and considerate. Also don't be a doormat. Just be confident and compassionate.
Denise was really supposed to be an example of this exact type of person. He's not supposed to be a role model, and anyone who thinks he is is probably a terrible person.
I get what you’re saying but it’s hard to imagine that saying mean things (negging) is in the same class as holding someone down and raping them. We need different terms for these two things
Rape isn't just the violent kind that we hear about in the news or see in a show or movie. If you're getting her drunk so you can get her to "say yes" that's rape. If she says no, and you keep going and press further, that's rape. If the point of your philosophy is to treat women as a vessel for sex instead of as a person, you're being a scumbag and likely committing sexual assault.
If she says no and you press further it’s being annoying, I’m not seeing why it would be classified as rape. And I’ve certainly changed my mind where a no becomes a yes.
I agree about the scumbag part, but you can be a scumbag without raping someone.
For the she says no part, I mean in the context of a sexual encounter. "No", "I'm not in the mood", "Please stop". If you keep trying from there, that's generally considered rape. No means no is a tagline for a reason.
I thought no means no is a tagline because no one should be forced into sex when they refuse it. Not because no one can change their mind.
If you keep trying from there it’s certainly annoying and douchy. But the person can just say no again or leave, they’re still not forced into anything. Now if they can’t leave without them saying yes, then of course that’s rape, but that’s not what I’m talking about
Nobody gets "pushed" into having sex by words, that's not how human behavior works. If that would be so easy wouldn't you think that specific people would be less dissatisfied? If you could just insist and it would happen, wouldn't you think that would all be easier then?
"Not taking 'no' to mean 'no'" is based on how the "no" is transmitted and expressed. How is the intonation, what is the body language, is it jokingly? Testing? Demanding? Words and signs are not that simple as words only get meaning via non- and para-verbal cues - that's how comedy works as well btw. Heck, reddit has a whole sign to identify sarcasm. In reality a no is not a no "in specific situatiosn". But there are clear negative "nos" and those are also taken as that. Nobody gets trained to push again, if someone clearly shows disinterest and ignores you. That's also part of the PUA field - identify when it's a waste of time, as it's a numbers game. Trying hard to pick on that one girl which clearly showed disinterest is not part of any PUA approaches.
It's taking rejections lightly and move on quickly - it's not "Not understanding rejection", it's the opposite. It's weird how people can forcefully misinterpret that as it is clearly communicated everywhere: it's about not taking rejections so hard and move one. "Moving on" is the identifier which should tell even the darkest bulb that it doesn't mean "keep on pushing if there is no sign of interest".
You willfully misinterpret that part to strengthen your narrative.
Please stop diminishing the value of the term rape with inflationary using it for all kinds of normal human behavior that you dislike.
Yup, pretty much. Either that or they wish they were doing that themselves, which is almost worse. That just leads to a toxic asshole stewing in their own shit until they become the next wannabe rapist getting an incel sub banned.
We might say no with a smile or joke or try to divert (“my boyfriend would hate that”) or push the hard no off until later (“maybe later”) or come up with an excuse (“I can’t I have to wash my hair”). This - generally - isn’t us being coy. We aren’t in the 50’s where we have to say no at first so we can be “good girls”.
We do it because saying no straight out is RISKY for us. We often are threatened or hurt when we do it, so we try to soften our refusals in order to protect ourselves.
This isn’t a signal that we don’t MEAN it. It is a signal that you are making us scared or nervous, and you should back off.
seriously, Christ on a bike all that gets so misinterpreted
So much of pua shit is just pushover rehab. Normal, healthy people of all sorts try to push through a no and convince someone to change their mind. Girls ABSOLUTELY do this to try to get with guys they want, lmao
Half of their strategy is badgering emotionally vulnerable women into giving them sex by convincing her she's not valuable.
I've also seen plenty of them advocate for not taking no for an answer. I've read these creeps describing their process and plenty of them seem to think that an uncomfortable no is a green light.
That's rape.
There's also a video I saw of one particular PUA (whose name slips my mind) of him hanging out with women in a club, grabbing them by the head, and "coercing" (forcing) them to give him a blow job.
Well yah literally forcing someone to give give you a blowjob is rape. But as far as I know that’s not what “pick up artists” are trying to do, even the ones who beg
The issue is that coercion is at best rapey, and at worst still rape.
If they say no, and you ask again, and again, and again, and they finally cave, that's not consent. Often what I read from these people isn't even that, the victim will just say no, then the creep will wait a few minutes, stick it in anyway, and say that because she didn't fight him off it was alright.
It doesn't have to be a beating or physically forceful to be rape. If you hold a gun to someone's head, or bully them, or badger them into consent, it's not real consent.
It's about respect for someone's autonomy. Plenty of pickup artists have none for women, and just want to get their dick wet with no regard for their target's wishes.
then the creep will wait a few minutes, stick it in anyway, and say that because she didn't fight him off it was alright.
It doesn't have to be a beating or physically forceful to be rape. If you hold a gun to someone's head,
Yah obviously holding a gun to someone’s head or “just sticking it in” is rape. I think you might believe I’m making a different argument than I am.
I’ve certainly not been in the mood, but later that no became a yes. I don’t feel raped, even if there was more than one request and even if my ex was a little pushy. I changed my mind and it became consensual
A good friend of mine used to gobble up all the pick up artist teachings. He event went with groups of like minded men who'd go out at night to practice and hone their craft. Needless to say after a while he became quite good at it and always has a couple of girls chasing after him. I never approved of the tactics though because to me they appeared extremely manipulative but well what do I know. At the end of the day he's never been single since he got into the whole pick up artist thing while I've been mostly single and lonely...
I think all they're doing is breeding "confidence"
I put it in quotes because it isn't really confidence (I don't think). There's a lot of sexism and dehumanization of women in groups like that, and it breeds a false sense of superiority.
Confidence is very attractive in a partner, so men who put themselves out there, and act witty and kinda dickish, and do so confidently are more likely to attract women. It's the same reason that "jocks" and "chads" stereotypically attract more women. It's not necessarily because they're better partners, it's because they're confident, and typically attractive and popular.
It just so happens that douchebags tend to have confidence out the ass. Same with pickup artists.
Go look at pictures of incels. They tend to look like normal people, but they obsess over bizarrely specific physical traits (that many normal men have) and convince themselves that they're hideous and they'll never get a woman because women only want XYZ.
It's all bullshit. Figure out being confident, and you can meet women while also not being a rapey creep or a "chad".
But you can take comfort in being a better person as you slowly trudge to your irrelevant death. Isn't it better?
(Keep telling himself it must be. There must be a heaven, right? It can't just be that the Donald Trumps and Wilt Chamberlains of the world are actually the winners of everything and everyone else gets to just suck on a tailpipe with their ethics doing nothing but fucking themselves in the end... OH WAIT, IT TOTALLY IS.)
This guy and her response weirdly enough reminds me of the character of Ross Geller in Friends with Rachel. E.g. being controlling and fearing your girlfriend would cheat on you.
Part of the PUA bs is not taking no to mean no. That's absolutely rapey behavior, and choosing to call people that are potentially vulnerable "a dumb bitch" isn't a great look my guy.
I'm not here to white knight women and treat them like they're some delicate little flowers who need to be protected at all times from all men. That's a bunch of horse shit.
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u/Teeshirtandshortsguy Jan 08 '20
It should also be noted that the women who typically fall for this type of thing tend to be women with self esteem issues, or other mental health problems, and most of these creeps know that.
A lot of these "pick-up artists" and their followers advocate for behavior that's effectively rape and gaslighting. Disgusting group of people.