r/classicwow • u/Crypto2k • Feb 22 '21
TBC Someone has to say it. I can't believe there's so little outrage on this issue
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u/Atreidas Feb 22 '21
"You think you do, but you don't".
people just proving him right. smh
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u/volinaa Feb 22 '21
thats exactly what this is.
wonder how it'll play out once they realize EVERYTHING in bc is a grind, even getting into raiding.
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u/KurtisMayfield Feb 22 '21
The whining about attunements will be glorious
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Feb 22 '21
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u/UnidadDeCaricias Feb 22 '21
People aren't going to whine about that.
People are going to whine about Arena being terrible, Arena boosting, raids still being too easy, absurdly boring damage rotations doing the top damage and so on.
But not about having to farm some rep so you can start raiding.
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u/pidnull Feb 22 '21
Don't forget about people complaining that primal might cost 1000g and all the herb/ore spawns are camped by druid bots with flight form.
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u/Aerospark12 Feb 22 '21
Don't worry the bots got reported and banned
Oh wait they just rerolled and started at 58 nvm
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u/clickrush Feb 22 '21
People always complain about PvP, because the vast majority of average players overestimate their skill and the reality doesn't match their fantasy.
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u/maglen69 Feb 22 '21
absurdly boring damage rotations doing the top damage and so on.
1-2 Arcane Mages.
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u/RogueEyebrow Feb 22 '21
Destro Shadowbolt spam.
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u/Falcrist Feb 22 '21
New warlock "rotation": same as the old warlock "rotation".
At least the debuff cap will be at least 40, and other specs that don't exclusively spam sbolt will be viable.
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Feb 22 '21
Honestly I think the worst grind I had in BC was grinding the 5k gold for epic flying. Everything else was fine. Obviously times are different now and gold is easier to get in classic, so maybe attunements will take over the top spot, but I’m not really too concerned.
I’m just excited that I can finally play as a prot Paladin in BC, something I wanted to do ever since I healed one tanking hyjal. Oh emi, you were a Colombian god. And my Paladin in BC will be an ode to you.
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Feb 22 '21 edited Mar 23 '21
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u/Dukuz Feb 22 '21
Well said, I hate how people wanna pay mages to play the game for them. Leveling can get old but it's also one of the best times in the game, especially when other like minded people play the game that way. Yeah it can get boring, but that is with anything. It sucks because it seems that most the people that play classic don't want the classic experience. Back in OG tbc my medium pop realm had populated quest zones all the way until wrath. Because it took longer to level and people played the game how it was intended.
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Feb 22 '21
The problem is it became so wide spread that you end up leveling mostly solo.
I loved leveling my first char. A big part of that was that I could find dungeon groups and quest groups. I ran WC, gnomer, and even bfd among others. I fought alliance levelers. I met people, quested with them, and added them to my friends list.
Now? Solo quest and solo grind. No groups for any dungeon whatsoever unless it is a boost group. So you either suffer through a level grind that is objectively worse than vanilla ever had, or you join the boost meta.
The solution, which should have been implemented over a year ago, is to nerf the experience from this stupid boost meta that didn't even exist in vanilla. Another huge classic problem that only wasn't fixed because of #nochanges mentality
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u/Antani101 Feb 22 '21
just so they can get quickly to grinding reputations to Revered.
Not that much of a grind if you don't touch quests until you're honored from dungeons.
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u/DankeyKong Feb 22 '21 edited Feb 22 '21
"Not that much of a grind if you grind first" ftfy
Edit: guys i know how the strategy works that doesnt make it feel less grindy
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u/jimmy_three_shoes Feb 22 '21
Leveling through dungeons is a great way to get good gear, get your reputations moving and farm up some gold. Then when you hit 70, and start questing, you'll get gold instead of XP, making getting your flying mount that much easier if you're a casual who didn't bank 1000's of gold over the course of Classic.
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u/smokemonmast3r Feb 22 '21
Hey man, I don't have thousands of gold banked up from classic, but I am no casual. I'm just bad with money.
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u/Antani101 Feb 22 '21
You have to level to 70 anyway.
Leveling up through dungeons also leaves you plenty of quest to get gold from.
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u/valdis812 Feb 22 '21
So grinding dungeons for rep. Still sounds like grinding to me.
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u/Priapraxis Feb 22 '21
super top secret info: The entire game is grinding, they just jazz it up a bit so morons don't know it's grinding.
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Feb 22 '21
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u/Priapraxis Feb 22 '21
Absolutely! Slow steady not gated grinds are ten million times better than all the time gated, skinnerbox, RNG shit.
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u/Paah Feb 22 '21
There is a sizeable group of people who do. And a much larger group of casuals who don't.
Classic is going down the exact same path which led to Retail's downfall, trying to increase the playerbase by catering to those casuals.
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Feb 22 '21
Which is ironic considering the people saying they don't have the time to level also somehow have time to raid?
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u/Sharkytrs Feb 22 '21
that's was classic for me in a nut shell though, I had a much better time levelling up a few characters to 60 than I ever did being a try hard in the raids we never won
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u/JohnCavil Feb 22 '21
Everyone had. Everyone remembers the first time they saw Elwynn, or went into STV, or cleared WC. Nobody remembers the 13th MC raid where you topped the meters.
But people have just said that they don't care about all that other stuff now, it's about topping the meters and min/maxing their character. Nobody wants to walk through Elwynn again, they'd rather have a high raider.io score.
I'd say that people are tricking themselves into not having fun, but it seems like a lot of people truly just enjoy that stuff, and don't enjoy the journey anymore, so who am i to say.
In the end it's just sad that people lost the connection with what got literally everyone into WoW in the first place, and they replaced it with a scuffed version of retail because that's how they have fun now.
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u/Sharkytrs Feb 22 '21
I just want that atmosphere back when it first started, it was the same feeling when a private server re-rolled.
its like here we all are on the starting line again, what will the world bring this time.
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u/CaiusRemus Feb 22 '21
I played vanilla WoW pre-tbc and honestly didn’t think it was that much fun.
I came back for Classic and I remember smoking a joint and then running around in dusk wood during a rainstorm, a horse group was rampaging and I had to flee to an inn. Going through the rain and making it to that bright warm inn was about the most immersed I’ve ever felt in a game. Maybe it was just the weed, but I swear the atmosphere of those early classic leveling zones is something special.
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u/Sharkytrs Feb 22 '21
yeah, same for me on horde side, mulgore -> barrens -> thousand needles just sort of immerses you in that shaman life that the tauren/trolls live.
Or living as an undead in the middle of the ruins of Lordearon with whispers of the past heard every time you walk through the old ruined hall to the undercity. Blizzard really did know how to tell a story back then, its sort of too mainstream and predictable now.
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Feb 22 '21
Get rid of warcraft logs, IO and meters and burn the code to the ground and salt the earth so that nothing may ever grow there. Records are the problem, get rid of them and the world will heal.
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u/Goldfish-Bowl Feb 22 '21
You don't remember people humping the damage meters back in original? I surely do. I can guarantee that warcraftlogs existing didn't create these kinds of players, and they've been there all along.
I choose to care about performance, and see how far my raids can be pushed, but I am far from the only guild in town. Why is it that the way my game is played has any bearing on yours?
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u/thebigmanhastherock Feb 22 '21
Back in the day the guild would post the damage meters in raid at the end of the run or even after bosses. It was definitely a thing to try and top it.
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u/eraclab Feb 22 '21
so you want to kill competitive part of the game without any alternative because you can't handle it? IO sucks, but it has merits and uses. Same thing with boosting, I can't handle this part of the game anymore let me just get to 60.
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u/Zerole00 Feb 22 '21
Heal from what? Some of us like playing with other competitive and well performing players.
God forbid we set some kind of standard.
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Feb 22 '21 edited Jan 22 '22
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u/clickrush Feb 22 '21
But WoW always had those mechanics and still has. Blizzard never embraced the MMORPG aspects like the economy, world pvp, disruptive events etc. They always settled on the lowest common denominator.
- Game masters are not real game masters, but in-game customer support.
- Most of the good stuff is soul-bound.
- Players are separated from each other by progression (leveling, gear etc.) instead of enabled to play together.
- Classes are shoehorned into one-dimensional game play. Especially in raids.
- Factions are just cosmetic plus some arbitrary simple effects.
- Events are just grind with some sugar on top.
- Style and lore got completely wrecked into a glowing, corny cringe fest.
- Generally a huge focus on solo content and endless trash.
- PvP got poisoned by insane gear progression and banned to be held behind closed doors.
The magic of initial vanilla was there, and sometimes can be felt when playing on a fresh server. But they never captured and expanded on that magic, even though they had the best opportunity and momentum to create a truly remarkable experience.
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u/Paah Feb 22 '21
What people mean when they say they don't have the time is they'd rather do something else. Either ingame or out of it. Play another game. Watch a movie. Etc. Everyone has time unless you literally work 3 jobs.
But they can't be honest about it with themselves so they just say they don't have the time.
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Feb 22 '21
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u/__deerlord__ Feb 22 '21
Give this man a fucking medal, because he's the only person that gets MMOs aren't for everyone
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u/Phnrcm Feb 22 '21
I have a hunch that the people who prepare their best for raid, aren't the people asking for blizz to sell boost.
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u/Dukuz Feb 22 '21
I played casually in classic, loved it. The more people started to optimize the fun out of the game the worse it got. I'm hopeful blizzard learned from this but I don't know. If something else pops up that effects the game a lot like mage boosting and world buff stacking, they need to fix that.
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u/quentinsacc Feb 22 '21
I disagree, the world pretty well died when BC hit, youll see how devoid of life all areas are, not just the capital cities, even after everyones leveled to 70. If you want to level, play vanilla where the world is pretty well wholly integrated. If you want to play TBC, everything before outland is irrelevent anyway.
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u/FouPouDav09 Feb 22 '21
That's what i've been saying, were going full loop again so i'll see what kind of abuse there can be in tbc then i'll fuck off this game after that and never look back to blizzard as I did before classic..
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u/Paah Feb 22 '21
That why people were demanding #nochanges so hard. You just can't trust modern Blizzard. Sure they got some good ones in for tbc, but plenty of bad too. Would have been better overall without any.
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u/MaDpYrO Feb 22 '21
To be honest, not that many were expecting players to be actively griefing and breaking the game so much. I mean, Firemaw EU is grief-central, and you can't find a good guild that doesn't require you to stack all world buffs.
I would've been okay with some changes to world buffs, if I knew how much it led to my character just staying logged out for days because of them. And how much it ultimately nerfed down the content.
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u/Varrianda Feb 22 '21
You can think something is good even if it has flaws. Classic isn’t perfect and there’s a lot I’d change about it, but it beats the hell out of retail. I think most people realized they don’t want an exact clone of the 2004 game, but that doesn’t mean they want retail.
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Feb 22 '21
What I'm starting to realize is that people are crying for, I guess, a permanent TBC timewalking? They want to do TBC raids and dungeons...like once, but keep my instant leveling, oh and transmog, and I like achievements, also I want to change my hairstyle whenever,
Dual spec, no wait tri spec, no wait change talents completely whenever, no wait actually just scrap talents altogether because some classes need a total overhaul.
Also my guild sometimes has like a couple people sick can our raid sizes be flexible?
DUDES YOU GUYS COMPLAIN THAT BLIZZARD DOESNT LISTEN TO YOU BUT THEY GAVE YOU ALL THESE THINGS.
Everything retail has was something, that the community at some point, begged Blizzard to have.
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Feb 22 '21
Can we have solo raids. I dont have friends or time to get one. Also i want it soloable in max 15minutes so i dont get bored of it. Also some big achievements for it whit titles like best player
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u/drylce101 Feb 22 '21
Oh boy does Blizzard have a game for you: Diablo III
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u/jimmy_three_shoes Feb 22 '21
I think he's talking about Torghast.
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u/SlimDirtyDizzy Feb 22 '21
I think he's talking about Torghast.
Soloable in Max 15 minutes
He is 100% not talking about Torghast.
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u/VestarisRiathsor Feb 22 '21
*Glances at Torghast* Yup, no problem. Welcome to Twisting Corridors!
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Feb 22 '21
Its to hard pls nerfd it i said i got 15 minutes a day :D
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Feb 22 '21
I laugh at r/wow at the Torghast nerf kiddies
Like can there really not be a single god damn game mode that is challenging?
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u/Boomerwell Feb 22 '21
This is why I tell people to just Chromie it or get a guild who runs old content.
I legit saw someone say they wanted Dungeon finder in here then other day, Bruv just go play retail it has everything you want but I guess you cant brag about playing TBC classic then.
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u/shahar333 Feb 22 '21
Mage boosting should never have been a thing.
I wish they made it unviable as soon as it became it a thing, but then again that's also somewhat of a change.
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u/epic_meme_username Feb 22 '21
How efficient modern mage farming is destroyed classic. People are RPing like its representing how vanilla was. It isnt and can never be for various reasons, among them mages being ridiculously abuseable.
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u/chainmailbill Feb 22 '21
“Mage farming” way back then meant a mage would round up 3-5 mobs out in the world and then blizzard them down.
300+ mara pulls?? Like honestly that’s just crazy and absolutely not how the game was intended to be played.
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u/jackfwaust Feb 23 '21
it wouldnt have even been possible back then due to hardware limitations. that amount of mobs on your screen at once would probably just crash your game back then.
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u/be_me_jp Feb 22 '21
Mage boosting didn't exist in vanilla, at least as a proliferated "service". It may have existed quietly in some circles, but it was not a "thing". Nor was the ZG GY, or Mara "170+ shit. And furthermore we would've expected OG Blizz to fix it, and they probably would've.
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u/joeblack48 Feb 22 '21
ya they should have reduced xp gain depending on the avg level of your party. id hate for them to have put a cap on blizzard like they do in tbc
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u/Comrade007m Feb 22 '21
For me though running friends through a dungeon was very much a part of the game back then. Nerfing the exp would have hurt that experience alot imo. I think the blizzard nerf just makes more sense as a solution.
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u/Dahns Feb 22 '21
It's like we needed #SomeChanges form the beginning and we shouldn't have shamed people who proposed them........
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u/Drevs Feb 22 '21 edited Feb 22 '21
Its sad because memes a side I heard people here saying that exact same sentence more than once in the past few days: "It's all about the endgame!"
When the Classic Concept was everything but that...Classic was always about nostalgia and the JOURNEY, endgame is part of it but its far far from being IT! This concept already exists, its called retail WoW...
I quit Classic in September after I downed C'thun because I couldnt bother to keep up with the WBuffs bulshit...I only have one character so this was happening to me often, it thursdays or friday, I manage to catch all my WBs sooooo I guess I wont log back till wendesday! I even consider switch to a more "not so good guild" only to find out that every decent or even "meh" guild was doing this...
Ah and dont even got me started on catching the buffs themselves, I was lucky because I work close to home and I can with relatively ease log on at hour x or y to catch ony, zg, rend, etc...but for a person who only can log at the end of its day...it must be a nightmare to catch buffs some of the weeks.
Imo this wasn't Blizzard's fault...the community got so self absorded by the meta and efficiency that couldn't take a step back and think: wait...this is 15 year old content, reletively easy and in top of that we already know all the strats and tactics back and forth...besides world and server 1sts races (the concept in classic is laughable but this is just my opinion) we dont need this...we can just take a few weeks more to get there but we will get there.
If they do classic fresh servers, I am considering starting over just to see if the raiding community that stays behind will loosen this metaslaving a bit so you know, we can have some more relaxed experience outside the raids.
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u/deaddonkey Feb 22 '21
I played 35 days played of TBC over 10 months and never touched endgame raids, fuck me I guess
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u/forkandspoon2011 Feb 22 '21
"All about endgame" is what ruined MMORPGs for me. Leveling Experience has always been so key, even when I was in a top guild and clearing all the content my favorite part of the game was doing "trial runs" for potential guild recruits... If you can't perform well in a 5 man, you can't do well in a 40 man.... All those core fundamentals you learn.. hell even just being aware of your surroundings or how to respond when things go upside down.
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u/Boomerwell Feb 22 '21
Funniest part of this to me is how people say because mages boosted Classic it's ok.
Mages fucking killed Classic leveling zones and bleed out a ton of players, you're legit explaining how this is a bad thing in your justification.
Going straight to endgame also killed the game for a ton of people when they realized how much content they missed and how little endgame content was compared to more modern games.
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Feb 22 '21
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u/redsoxman17 Feb 22 '21
3 friends of mine came back to the game in June or so after all quitting before level 40. I had a mage, so I boosted them quite a bit (at their request) because they didn't want to spend the time leveling.
Surprise surprise, they all quit again. We 4 manned UBRS and got a warlock Reed, and he never logged in again. Glad I spent hours boosting them while they played other games...
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u/tomtom123422 Feb 22 '21
But also some people love the endgame classic and continue to pvp and raid on many alts. Going straight to the endgame also made the game for a ton of people because they wouldnt get there if they had to level in the same zones for the 13th time and just dont really care anymore because they have done the journey so many times. How many people are still hype to play Red Dead after 15 playthroughs? Probably not alot. You honestly can't expect people to enjoy the leveling experience in classic after having done it many times in retail and having done it again in classic, you just can't if you are being realistic.
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u/McBlemmen Feb 23 '21
Right after they announced this I thought all the positive reactions to it must have been bots or paid people or .. something. But it's still going. I feel like i fell asleep and woke up in opposite world.
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u/mcdandynuggetz Feb 23 '21
Honestly I still have a firm belief that it’s either a large amount of blizz shills or botters that are pouring their support for this.
I mean if botters can bot in WoW... who’s to say they can’t create social media bots to send support for it?
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u/TheHaight Feb 22 '21
The fact that so many people in this sub are butthurt about the criticism for the boosts - "ugh enough! can we get a mega thread! please stop!" shows that they know it's wrong.
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u/mcdandynuggetz Feb 23 '21
I love how the mod had to mention on the mega thread that “I really need to try my best to not remove your posts complaining about this, guys stop it please you make my job hard....”
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u/Canadian_360rt Feb 22 '21
Honestly. What happened to no change classic? Couldn’t keep that going threw tbc?
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u/ewilhelml Feb 22 '21
I love this post.
It's this simple: Release classic servers of an old game and do as much as possible to keep it pure. Classic is the literal opposite of current expansions which is good because then the whole spectrum of the audience gets what they want. Either QoL and fast paced Shadowlands or slow paced, preparation based Classic where the grind is the game.
Don't try to make Classic attractive to the average retail player, don't try to satisfy that part of the playerbase. They have a game fully made with that concept in mind.
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Feb 22 '21
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Feb 22 '21
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u/jimmy_three_shoes Feb 22 '21
Found out the other day that my boss's boss, and 3 of my co-workers played WoW back in the day, and just the thought of TBC era Arenas coming back has all 4 considering subbing again. Came up in our Friday meeting.
So there are a lot of people out there that didn't want Vanilla, but are excited for TBC. I'm tempted to roll Hunter for this expac, because I loved playing my Hunter back then, but it makes me wonder if we're going to be a 1-button macro class again.
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Feb 22 '21
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u/jimmy_three_shoes Feb 22 '21
Yeah, WoW really did a good job of ushering in that "Games as a Service" era we're currently in.
I know a lot of people played Sub-Based MMO's before WoW launched, but as a kid in high-school when rumors of WoW came out, I remember being disappointed because I didn't want to pay a subscription fee to play it. As a kid with a part-time job making minimum wage to pay for my car insurance and gas, I wasn't sure I would be able to afford it.
But I bought it on launch day, and still main the same toon. Even if it's race and faction changed.
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u/Lady_Tano Feb 22 '21
I'm in that boat. Don't like vanilla, but i'm all for TBC. The boosts are meh to me, but i'll probably use it on a belf or something.
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u/fluegu Feb 22 '21
I heard from multiple people that didn't want to play classic are now considering subbing because of the boost available. Some people just want to play the max level content and not level for over 10 days
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u/Abradolf1948 Feb 22 '21
While I won't be purchasing a boost because I enjoy classic leveling, I can imagine a few situations in which people would. I think one that hasn't been mentioned is people switching servers or factions. I mained alliance with a few friends that had toons on both sides, but they got significantly farther raiding as Horde, so they plan to main those characters for TBC. So now a bunch of us are rerolling Horde.
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Feb 22 '21
They’re not in keeping with #nochanges and that’s a good things because the movement is a stupid reactionary take by people whose only argument is that blizz literally doesn’t understand their own design philosophy and will destroy the player base of the game out of spite.
Somechanges was always the way to go, just keep your brain on straight and consider what elements of the game make it good. Stuff like hard 5 mans and attunements are a part of that, human ret Paladins not having seal of blood isn’t.
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u/Dankest_Pepe Feb 22 '21
Oh man... the fucking #nochanges crowd is back to be extremely vocal and pouty with shitty suggestions before quitting 2 months into the game.
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u/Saucymarbles Feb 22 '21
"drums were simply broken, they were world buffs on steroids and even TBC era devs admit they needed to be fixed"
Thats a huge stretch, the active is 5% haste that required 4 people to maintain whereas full world buffs for a melee in classic is 15% haste, 10% crit, 340 attack power, 15% stamina, 15% all stats, 10% movespeed, 15 all stats, and an extra 10% damage on DMF weeks. The #1 parse in the world on patchwerk is over 2.4k dps with world buffs and 1.2k without. 5% haste by comparison is nothing. It is nice that they seem to be giving us the bonus without requiring a degenerate amount of professions stacking though
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Feb 22 '21
Let me pose the question since I haven't seen people mention it.
As far as I know, we WON'T get paid boosts, it's a once per account lvl 58 boost that CAN NOT be used on Belfs and Draenai.
I understand people being against it (i personally am kinda in the middle, since I agree with points from both sides), but isn't that kinda better than people buying gold to then inject it into the economy by buying boosts?
Also, I think it's important to make the distinction between "paid boost" (service we have on retail where you can do it however many times you like) and "one time, limited per account and restricted use boost". While both are effectively the same with what they offer (skipping leveling process), they are quite different in how it affects the game IMO
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u/PedowJackal Feb 22 '21
I think the biggest problem is the bot in this story. IMO you are right saying it's not really a big deal for average player, but for botting it's HUGe because Classic is free with the subs, so botter won't event have to pay the game + the boost. Only the one time boost.
If banned, another boost, rince and repeat and you got unlimited lvl 58 bot.
This boost would have been better received if blizzard decided to hammer the bot problem with something like phone nimber attached to account or similar and insta hardware ban bot instead of banwave.
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u/im-a-limo-driver Feb 22 '21
It’s almost like your greater playerbase is taking the game in the exact same direction they took it in 15 years ago. Weird. I never would have guessed.
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u/TinnoB Feb 22 '21
The people that wanted to play through classic wow content should already be playing classic wow or should start now. But some people don’t care about that part and therefore did not play classic wow, but they do want to play tbc, a onetime boost to 58 gets them to the content they came to play, and overall it doesn’t matter much to the overall feel of tbc, because they still have to go through tbc content like everyone else. I don’t see the issue.
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u/Tyuiop78 Feb 22 '21
They want the easy options, they want convenience. It's the way of the world. But it's odd that this whole movement started to get away from that, and not even 1 expansion in we're already rapidly moving back to square one.
Terrible choice by Blizzard and will have long lasting, damaging ramifications to "Classic WoW"
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u/SpunkMcKullins Feb 22 '21
I agree completely. Absolutely floored by how accepting of the announcement this sub was. I have no idea how people can see these changes and find them necessary while simultaneously dunking on retail for being casual friendly and filled with microtransactions. If people here can't see the writing on the walls already, then there's no hope for where Classic will be once the cash cow that is WotLK comes out. Blizz is well-aware there's a massive player base just itching for Wrath, and they're going to take as much advantage of it as possible.
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u/Helsafabel Feb 22 '21
Yeah the boost stuff is probably the most offputting element of the whole announcement. The rest was quite good imo. It just crossed a line.
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u/crude_username Feb 22 '21
People on this sub learned that they actually did not have the desire to put in the time that vanilla wow and tbc required to succeed. So now they want it partially retail-ized to suit the fact that they don’t truly want to play the game as it was
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u/cherrysodanice Feb 22 '21
I find it hard to believe the same community a year ago that would never accept this change, are now open to it. You're talking about the same people who leveled countless 60's on private servers turncoat after 1 year of blizzard classic? Nah, it's just the retail players moving over and starting to outnumber the original community that didn't want massive changes.
The same people who opposed the classic community so much because they had an iron will to keep things the way they were before wow tokens and paid boosts took over. Well they've successfully made the first expac into retail lite.
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u/Stephanie-rara Feb 22 '21
You're talking about the same people who leveled countless 60's on private servers turncoat after 1 year of blizzard classic? Nah, it's just the retail players moving over and starting to outnumber the original community that didn't want massive changes.
Meanwhile, ignoring the amount of people who happen to enjoy leveling a lot in Classic, but not the barren wasteland its become.
I can simultaneously prefer a fresh server with no boosts, while preferring this over the current situation (Dead leveling outside of player boosting).
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Feb 22 '21
You're talking about the same people who leveled countless 60's on private servers turncoat after 1 year of blizzard classic?
Many private servers sold boosts and/or significantly boosted experience gains so that people could quickly get into the end game.
Many private servers also altered how world buffs work, either by removing them from raids at launch of new content, or by removing the cd on dropping buffs so it wasn't as big of a stressful experience to get them.
Private servers were full of people who wanted changes, and many private server players tried to warn the nochanges crowd about how awful certain aspects of Vanilla actually were.
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u/thefancykyle Feb 22 '21
People don't realize the most populated servers often had less 1x and more of the 2x to 3x range for XP gain, hell even the 1x often ran XP weekends or events, I truly feel like many people in the classic wow reddit think they're the ENTIRE community, it's the classic trappings of an echo chamber, most people I've spoken too are completely indifferent about it, it does not affect how "you" the individual play the game, At the same time I would be down for an even further XP adjustment to the leveling bracket of 20-60
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u/Slodrute Feb 22 '21
Exactly, first pserver I played in was Enturion TBC and it was 1x, after that slow a tedious leveling I got to enjoy the best endgame and all of its beauty, but the moment I dinged 70 was like a liberation, after that I just played in x5 and is by far a better experience IMO
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u/Muesli_nom Feb 22 '21
it's just the retail players moving over and starting to outnumber the original community
That's actually a good explanation! I just wish that Blizzard had held steadfast in their philosophy to offer "classic" as a different product. I mean, I myself have the stance that TBC is the perfect opportunity to infuse changes - but not to arrive at Retail earlier, but never. Make dungeons more complex again, never implement the general nerf patch that was the pre-patch to WotLK, keep classes distinct, maybe even limit flying in some way.
Ugh. I'll likely play TBC still anyhow, but if this is the road we're using, I'll take my hat when the WotLK pre hits.
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u/MajinAsh Feb 22 '21
I find it hard to believe the same community a year ago that would never accept this change,
That's because this isn't the same community.
This community used to be something like 95% smaller. The community that asked for nochanges, spell batching ect in now a minority of a minority.
A new community moved in that wants boosts and dual spec and no grind. We're at 450k people subbed to here compared to what, less than 20k early on?
However that original community is the one that gets downvoted because they enjoy the PvP system, or don't want dual spec, or want nochanges.
The classic playerbase today is very very different from the group of people that spent years begging blizzard to make legacy servers.
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Feb 22 '21
Bruh retail requires way more time investment to succeed at the highest levels. It’s just that TBC’s time investments are frontloaded, while retails grind simply never ends.
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u/DeanWhipper Feb 22 '21
Frighteningly accurate.
2019: We're hardcore, we want all the slow tedious stuff!
2020: OK just some of the slow tedious stuff
2021: Fuck it fam, I'm a dad now and I work 4000 hours a week, but I still deserve to clear all the content.
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u/MetalPoe Feb 22 '21
These may just as well be different people saying these things. Hardcore players in my experience play actually less, because they’re raidlogging, don’t waste consumables on wipes and gold on repairs and clear the content in 2 nights. Compare that to a dad that needs 3 or 4 nights to clear content and uses way more consumables.
That’s not even considering that people may change their point of view when confronted with new evidence - that is actually experiencing the tedious stuff - and should not be shunned for that. Learning and openmindedness should be encouraged and not played down.
In that regard, what are posts like this going to achieve? Do you want to call out hypocrisy? Do you want people to stick to their guns and embrace tediousness? Do you want people to gatekeep themselves by admitting they don’t deserve to play current content because they didn’t put in effort in the past?
This format - even meant as a meme - is only going to make people feel bad. It is destructive criticism at best and neither funny nor going to make people change their ways. Therefore, it’s completely useless.
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Feb 22 '21
You're confusing the Classic crowd with the entitled crybaby Retail crowd that has now taken over Classic and the devs are catering to...the same way the game was originally destroyed.
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u/cherrysodanice Feb 23 '21 edited Feb 23 '21
I noticed so many people giving their personal anecdotes in supports for boosts it's almost sickening to listen to.
"I've leveled over and over, I shouldn't have to do it again!"
"I have 5 level 60s, I shouldn't have to do it all over again 1-70"
"I don't want to level again, I've done it so many times already.."
It's all entitlement.
Yes you should have to level, even if you have several times before, that's how the classic versions of the game work, and why they were rebooted; to relive the old experience. The entire point of these fresh slates were to avoid pay to play features in the shops that didn't exist at that time.
All their arguments for boosts come from an "I want this, I want that, I shouldn't have to level again" mindset. Too bad, that's how the game is supposed to be played. If you go on the WoW forums its at a complete 50/50 when it comes to controversial stuff like boosts. I saw threads there asking about barbershops, transmogs, and even WoW tokens garnering a decent amount of support. Two years ago boosts would of been ludicrous, transmogs and WoW tokens would not even be spoken of. The community has fallen very low from the original idea of these classic reiterations of the game, it will turn into full blown retail by WoTLK.
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u/Volitar Feb 23 '21
Classic server player base is outnumbered by locusts.
Private servers don't exist and we are giving Activision money again.
The house always wins.
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u/Wowfanperson Feb 23 '21
ive been pissed, Ionno what happened I think a lot of retailers found out they liked classic wow. because theres so many idiots that bit into this shit and are just completely overpowering. You get normally downvoted to oblivion with some person who has the arguing skills of a 12 year old (and probably is) strongly supporting on getting milked for cash by blizz.
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u/wehaddababyeetsaboy Feb 22 '21
No one is defending botting.
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u/Skrofler Feb 22 '21
Anyone who buys gold defends botting. They're not very vocal about it though. They just open their wallet.
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u/yongrii Feb 22 '21 edited Feb 22 '21
I remember BC levelling. I actually enjoyed it - the 1-58 experience is slightly different than Vanilla (slightly more polished, even) yet still retains that nice immersive long-adventure feeling.
Remember classes change in BC and yes it means the levelling experience does too, as well as some questing revamps to help fill gaps.
There are countless other #somechanges Classic could have introduced (such as - gasp - actually making systems changes to break mage boosting, which would most certainly have happened if the meta came to the fore in 2004-2006). What are they so worried about? Losing subs? No they won’t! They’ll just go back to retail!
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u/JohnCavil Feb 22 '21 edited Feb 22 '21
"But i'm adult with a family and a job, I don't have time to level!"
Oh well in that case we better get you that boost! I mean god forbid you don't earn things in a game because you can't put in the time or effort. I mean just the thought of someone not getting to clear all the raids within the first few weeks just brings a tear to my eye.
I mean if you don't play TBC to clear all the raids what's even the point?
I think we can all agree that an MMORPG is not about grinding or levelling and should cater to people who don't have time to play the game or enjoy grinding. If we can't get that dad with two kids working 45 hours/week to clear Sunwell then what's the point? Clearly everyone needs to be able to do everything in game, regardless of time investment.
Retail state of mind.
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u/jmorfeus Feb 22 '21
"But i'm adult with a family and a job, I don't have time to level!"
Oh well in that case we better get you that boost! I mean god forbid you don't earn things in a game because you can't put in the time or effort.
I am one of those "dads" that don't have time, but I absolutely whole-heartidly agree with you. Classic should be Classic. Nothing spits in the face of the Classic design principles more than a fucking leveling boost.
How did this sub get overrun with retail players? Not that there is something wrong with retail, but if you want such a game, you already have a perfectly viable option - retail. The game is not bad, it's just different. But please keep Classic things Classic-way.
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u/joeblack48 Feb 22 '21 edited Feb 22 '21
" How did this sub get overrun with retail players? "
this is an unpopular hot take of mine but i think classic attracted some of the worst players of retail by providing a sense of "power" with an easier attainable barrier of entry. the skill cap required to be a competent raider is much lower then retail. until naxx, as long as you did basic mechanics, itemized properly, and pushed your 2-3 buttons you did fine in raid and with a 40man roster consistency and loyalty to the guild are more important in some cases then a very good player. the biggest barrier to gear is a time sink. eventually you'd get geared out if you stick with a guild. in retail, there is a much higher skill cap for the average player as you go into mythic raiding and mythic 15+. i believe people who struggled in retail but were chasing that feeling of power, or being the best, trickled into classic. classic allows for them to no life it and eventually gain that feeling of "power". with that sense of power comes a sense of entitlement. they do not love classic because of the oldschool game, raids, or community but because because it allows them to feel powerful where retail does not; to be able to say they are the best player because they have good gear. This player will fight for level boosts, tokens, or anything else to make their lives easier because they dont care about TBC or Classic community, they only care about chasing the feeling of being the best and most powerful.
imo, thats why we see such a hard split in the community over decisions like this. you have true classic lovers who just wanna play a game they loved once, and you have toxic players who have nothing but time on their hands to make themselves feel powerful and the best
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u/Dahns Feb 22 '21
Retail asks way more time than Classic. How you don't even have time to LEVEL in Classic ? Have you been grinding boars next to Goldshire for 50 levels ?
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Feb 22 '21 edited Mar 23 '21
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Feb 22 '21
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u/be_me_jp Feb 22 '21
The fucking #nochanges crowd were sure as shit quick to hide in SM spamming spellcleave on day 2. What an authentic vanilla experience
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u/Antani101 Feb 22 '21
But this does not preserve the spirit of Classic.
Spirit of Classic will be preserved in the Classic only servers.
This will be on TBC servers, and on TBC servers anything before 60 hardly matters anyway.
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u/PsycheBreh Feb 22 '21
I feel that your comment really sums it up. I'm having a hard time understanding why people dislike this boost feature. I think it is a good idea and I don't even intend to use it.
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u/Doobiemoto Feb 22 '21
Because people are cry babies and they like to fool themselves into thinking 1-58 actually means something. AlsO they love gatekeeping a 14 year old expansion. They are like the older generations who think because they suffered no future generation should have it easier.
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u/TinnoB Feb 22 '21
Yeah, I wanted #somechanges, I got #somechanges, and for the most part I agree with those #somechanges, and I don’t in anyway mind the level 58 boost, it just won’t matter much tbh, cry all you like, but it won’t make a huge difference.
I bet you don’t believe me, but just look at all the pservers do on tbc and wotlk servers to make the classic leveling part faster and easier. Generally pservers go vanilla wow as 1x as many people think that’s how it should go, but for tbc and onwards it’s usually either a boost or increased xp, because the people specifically wanting to play those expansions don’t want to have to go through everything again and again all the time, for the people wanting to level with the classic experience why not just start doing that now, then you can get the real experience as you want and let people catch up when tbc comes around with their onetime 58 boost.
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u/Larzington Feb 22 '21
Yes! I am shocked by the tendency to downplay the TBC boost. This community almost uniformly agreed beforehand that boosting was objectively bad for the game.
I think people got a little distracted by our boners for cross faction seal of blood, phasing content, etc. We didn’t want to have a sour taste in our mouth. But this is a huge issue. It sets an insane precedent for legacy servers going forward. We should all be concerned.
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u/Stephanie-rara Feb 22 '21
This community almost uniformly agreed beforehand that boosting was objectively bad for the game.
Or quite a few people share the opinion that boosting in vanilla is different than boosting in TBC. For many people, the main draw of vanilla is the leveling experience. In the 'classic experience', the end game was not the shining point of the original game.
Yet, in the 'classic experience' of TBC, it absolutely was. Leveling was bemoaned as lifeless after everyone already moved on to Outlands.
I'd have a lot more issue with the boost if we weren't keeping Classic as-is as well. I just don't have an issue with TBC being focused on, well.. TBC.
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u/CodyMueller Feb 23 '21
I'm FINE with boosting as long as you get a little emblem next to your name in chat/when walking around so we know who the fucking lazy scum fucks are. k ty bye
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u/Tokzillu Feb 22 '21
Fucking preach.
Everybody wants retail conveniences but under the "Classic" flag so they can say they're a Classic player without having to play Classic.
It's certainly not everybody, but the playerbase is one of the biggest reasons I won't be coming back for TBC Classic. I don't want to tarnish my memories of my favorite era of WoW by watching it turn into another Classic "we thought we did, but we didn't."
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u/updown94 Feb 23 '21
It's certainly not everybody, but the playerbase is one of the biggest reasons I won't be coming back for TBC Classic
100% this. The playerbase was ruining this whole game, and their retail mentality of it. That's why I am hesitant to join TBC, because I know they will cheese every single pixel out of it.
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u/Tokzillu Feb 23 '21
Exactly. I was so pumped at the possibility of TBC Classic before Classic even launched. Just hearing about it got my hopes up.
Now, seeing what became of Classic, I'd much rather play RunScape tbh.
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u/cherrysodanice Feb 22 '21 edited Feb 23 '21
It's depressing to think about. 2 years ago threads were filled with people excited to play classic and hard ball it to 60. People were posting threads of encouragement for people that were intimidated by the difficulty and the grind that was ahead. People from retail would come over and try to weasle in their changes and would get stonewalled from any dumb retail esque suggestions.
Now look at it, so sad. "Boosts are actually pretty smart if you think about it...."
"I'm a father with 30 kids, honestly this is great..."
"This will totally help the botting problem..." <-- This literally enables botters, and it's on blizzard to ban these people, not make changes based around them.
"I-I-It's only one per account, it won't even make a huge difference..." See how long that will last, you give blizzard an inch they will take miles.
This change is terrible, it will speedrun tanking servers economies because bots will just make several accounts with multiple boosts and wreak havoc on servers. The 1 per account restriction will 100% be removed in the future after blizzard sees the fat margins they are getting from the retail crowd that has taken over. It is quite literally already going in retails direction on the first expac...the entire point of a fresh slate was to AVOID ANYTHING RETAIL and be separate from it, blizzard is even on record saying it was supposed to be completely detached.
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u/DelkorAlreadyTaken Feb 22 '21
The community is the reason most games turn to shit. The Pserver crowd wanted the old experience, not your newage transmog, pay2win, lfr shit.
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u/dotamaster Feb 22 '21
My only issue is 58 level boost and not, because players get it. Botting problem is so bad right now, they can start making gold right away if they get free boost on their account.
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u/gopenreddito Feb 22 '21
Meanwhile people cry for dual-specc too wich makes things easier and faster, guess they cant handle this old mmo either. Idk who should decide what is and what is not tBC tbh. I dont want either of it, but I can see arguments for both of them. Same goes for all changes tbh, its not so black and white if it is actually going to affect the game or not.
My guess is that it wont do much. A large majority of characters will still be "og" lvld anyways.
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u/jacob6875 Feb 22 '21
I’m sorry if you have limited time but catering to people that couldn’t level to 60 over the 2 years of classic is just stupid.
If your time is really that limited than you likely won’t have time to do endgame content anyway or get atunments etc.
Blizzard even makes an MMO you can play with limited time. It’s called shadow lands.
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Feb 22 '21
I am gonna play on an RP server to escape some of this sentiment. The Booster meta isnt good for the community at all. and legit the lvl 58 pay boost from Blizz is just a spit in the face to the community. Goddamnit. Well Ill be happily level my new toon alone then..
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u/brute1113 Feb 22 '21
> I am gonna play on an RP server to escape some of this sentiment.
Does this actually make an impact? I might start playing on RP servers if it means there's less boosting and more actual playing.
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u/cherrysodanice Feb 22 '21 edited Feb 22 '21
A really sad downhill spiral, way quicker then expected too. Imagine all these players 2 years ago that were so outspoken about how they wanted classic to be, and would not even utter the word boost in any single sentence, are now the same people advocating it a little over a year later. Either that or they are being replaced by retail players 5 to 1 that welcome these changes with little to no backlash towards blizzard.
Retail players could not stand the classic crowd, it's so sad to see them infest the community they opposed so much, and turn this god given fresh slate to start over from into retail lite on the first expac.
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u/jmorfeus Feb 22 '21
Either that or they are being replaced by retail players 5 to 1 that welcome these changes with little to no backlash towards blizzard.
We're still here. We mostly just got overrun I think.
Boosts are absolutely anti-classic and would be absolutely demolished here on this sub before Classic launch.
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u/Drak_Gaming Feb 22 '21
Imagine thinking level 58 is endgame.
#NoChanges was a shit idea 2 years ago and it still is.
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u/Dramajunker Feb 22 '21
Agreed. The game could use a few qol changes that didn't exist in the original. Simple things that won't kill the overall vibe of the original.
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u/420WeedPope Feb 22 '21
The people in this sub are pathetic, they want to pay more money to get half of the game. It's like paying extra at Burger King to not get fries because you don't like or have the time to eat them.
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u/DeanWhipper Feb 22 '21
Haha sorry fam, I have no time to eat the fries, can you just give me the calories instantly? I'll pay extra
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Feb 22 '21
I'm a single father of 5 who works two jobs. I don't have time to watch the movie. Can I just pay for the ticket and you give me the ending?
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u/GreedyBeedy Feb 22 '21
TLDR people keep forgetting Blizzard is an American company where profits come before everything. And then whine about it and continue to pay their sub like loyal addicts.
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u/Johngo3000 Feb 22 '21
I don't understand what the fuck people are saying when they say you have to put a ton of time into classic and TBC to succeed
you can just play casually