(OC) AI 'art' and the future

[u/SylvieXX]

Could be controversial but I'm just gonna say it... I don't like AI... and for me it was never about it not looking good. There are obviously more factors to this whole thing, like about people losing jobs, about how the whole thing is just stealing, and everything like that but I'm just focusing on one fundamental aspect that I think about a lot... I just wanted to draw what I feel...! 🥲🥲 Sorry about the cringe but I actually live for cringe 💖

[u/illogicalhawk]

One fundamental issue with the algorithm showing and reinforcing things you already know and like is that it's limiting. How small would your world and tastes be if you never tried something new, something outside your comfort zone, something that you didn't already know you'd like?

We're all much more diverse and interesting people because we've taken "risks" and experienced new things. Not all of them work for us, but that at least shows you're trying and open to growth.

[u/TheGreyGuardian → u/illogicalhawk]

Imagine if your parents said "Oh, you like Mac and Cheese? Okay!" and then only ever fed you Mac and Cheese your whole life.

[u/Genesis13 → u/TheGreyGuardian]

[u/Lebowquade → u/Genesis13]

What...... Is this from? That looks like Adam Scott on the left and and Glenn Howerton on the right?

[u/Hobbes_XXV → u/Lebowquade]

Sir, that's Mac's famous mac and cheese

[u/rjrgjj → u/Hobbes_XXV]

YOU PUT MEAT HUNKS IN IT

[u/ElectronicBoot9466 → u/Lebowquade]

The guy on the left is Rob McElhenney.

[u/Lebowquade → u/ElectronicBoot9466]

Okay well now then clearly it's just an episode of Sunny I never saw

[u/ElectronicBoot9466 → u/Lebowquade]

The episode is Mac & Dennis Move tot eh Suburbs.

[u/tenaciousdeev → u/Lebowquade]

Season 11 Episode 5. So good. I wish I could erase it from my brain and re-watch it.

[u/Business-Drag52 → u/tenaciousdeev]

That montage is some of my favorite TV

[u/Genesis13 → u/Lebowquade]

Its Always Sunny In Philiedlphia. The bowl that Dennis is throwing has mac and cheese in it.

[u/PhthaloVonLangborste → u/TheGreyGuardian]

There is a guy on r/cheese listing every cheese once a day and is in the 1300's I think. So. If you made me Mac and cheese with different cheeses every day, I might be happy. There are 2 other meals in the day.

[u/OgOnetee → u/PhthaloVonLangborste]

He truly is a master of his kraft.

[u/Daedalus_Machina → u/OgOnetee]

[u/leonprimrose → u/PhthaloVonLangborste]

I just checked and 10 hours ago was 1679

[u/PhthaloVonLangborste → u/leonprimrose]

Damn. Yeah I figured I was going to be off but not that far off.

[u/MfkbNe → u/TheGreyGuardian]

As an autist I think that sounds kinda nice.

But I am worried about videogames. What makes them fun to me is that I learn new gameplay mechanics, enemies behaivour and weaknesses and use them to win, but if a game just would have the same gameplay as the standard modern shooter with only one kind if enemy that is copy and pasted over and over again I will learn nothing new and the game will be extremly boring.

[u/Lonttu → u/MfkbNe]

Wow, you just described why i don't like games that much anymore. Feels like i've learned them all, even though i probably haven't.

[u/Wild_Marker → u/Lonttu]

The lack of novelty can hit hard sometimes. I can think of a couple of ways you might aleviate that.

1) Obviously, find something you haven't played. There's a ton of stuff out there, especially in the AA and Indie scenes. Switch genres! Play something out of your comfort zone. You never know who has made your next obsesion if you limit yourself to the known and the safe.

2) Focus on mastering mechanics instead of simply learning them. Some games are good for challenges, and challenging yourself to truly master the intricacies of a particular game can feel very rewarding. Bonus points if you don't use the internet to just find builds and strategies, or to compare yourself to others which can minimize your feelings of achievement.

[u/FleetStreetsDarkHole → u/Wild_Marker]

2 is really big, not just in mechanics but general enjoyment. I used to blast through worlds just trying to keep the high of fun going. But the games actually got more fun when I treated them like proper journeys. I took my time, looked at the art, pondered the stories of elements with no explicit text, and tried to learn about the game as a whole. I got so much more out of them than "of another sim\action\rogue\souls\etc."

They start to feel more novel, distinct, and unique that way. I started ignoring discussions that complained about games being overly similar and started focusing more on what made them distinct. I might start a game because it's similar, but I play it because it's different, if that makes sense.

I've started to find that games that don't have good quality, it's not because they're similar. It's because they weren't utilized, weren't polished, weren't allowed to fulfill their potential. They aren't the same because they have similar elements. They were the same because they have the same lack of care.

Because the pieces will usually be the same. The big picture will usually be the same. Zoomed out they all use the same tools and building blocks. But if you zoom in, those pieces have been touched uniquely by their artists. They become a living museum of mechanics, designs, and stories. They all paint with the same brush but you realize it's the brush strokes that matter.

And that's why, to me, some games look like forgeries, while others that seem like forgeries are actually unique and inspired by what came before.

[u/Wild_Marker → u/FleetStreetsDarkHole]

weren't allowed to fulfill their potential

Oh man I've played so many in this category. Particularly since I like playing games of the tycoon/colony builder variety. So many of them are JUST one step from being great by leveraging their unique strengths but... don't, so they end up feeling derivative and leave you asking yourself "why didn't I just play [better similar game]?".

[u/MfkbNe → u/Lonttu]

I had lots of fun with Horizon Zero Dawn. I am still learning how to best defeat certain machines. Human enemies are still boring in the game though.

[u/MsterSteel → u/MfkbNe]

Congratulations, you have just described the most played video game franchise.

[u/MfkbNe → u/MsterSteel]

Which is it? Call of Duty? Battlefield? Medal of Honour?

[u/MsterSteel → u/MfkbNe]

Yes.

[u/yeetman426 → u/MfkbNe]

if a game would just have the same gameplay with only one kind of enemy that is copy pasted I will learn nothing new and the game will be extremely boring

This is why I stopped buying triple A games, they’re just the same handful of extremely dull concepts copy pasted from one game to another, at this point only Indie games and occasionally double A games are worth the trouble

[u/donaldhobson → u/MfkbNe]

Why can't AI come up with unusual new gameplay mechanics.

I asked current ChatGPT

Describe the mechanics of an unusual and novel type of computer game. Come up with something fun to play

And got this on the first try

Game Title: "Echoverse: Soundscape Explorer"

Core Concept

"Echoverse" is a first-person exploration and puzzle-solving game where players navigate a surreal, ever-changing world using echolocation as their primary tool. The game world is invisible by default, and players must generate sounds to "see" their surroundings through sound waves bouncing off objects. Different materials and structures respond uniquely to sound, creating a dynamic and immersive way to explore.Game Title: "Echoverse: Soundscape Explorer"
Core Concept
"Echoverse" is a first-person exploration and puzzle-solving game where players navigate a surreal, ever-changing world using echolocation as their primary tool. The game world is invisible by default, and players must generate sounds to "see" their surroundings through sound waves bouncing off objects. Different materials and structures respond uniquely to sound, creating a dynamic and immersive way to explore.

Mechanics

1. Sound-Based Vision

The game world starts completely dark and invisible.

Players produce sounds (claps, footsteps, whistles, etc.), and objects appear as shimmering outlines for a brief moment based on how sound waves reflect off them.

Different frequencies and intensities of sound affect how far or clearly the environment is revealed.

1. Echo-Based Interactions

Shouting or clapping can reveal large spaces but might alert creatures or trigger traps.

Tapping gently with a staff or snapping fingers gives short-range details without making too much noise.

Players can acquire special "resonance tools" like tuning forks or sonic emitters that amplify echoes or let them

So yeah, AI can already come up with pretty decent novel game mechanics.

[u/regoapps → u/TheGreyGuardian]

Whenever people talk about how the "algorithm" keeps showing them the same terrible content over and over again, they're telling on themselves that they often interact with terrible content. They don't have a fundamental understanding of how a good algorithm works, so they just blame what they don't understand.

A good algorithm will constantly analyze your interests by showing you more of what you like and occasionally, show you something different. And if you engage with the new stuff, then it'll know that you want to see more of the new stuff. And if you don't engage with the old stuff, then it'll stop showing it to you as much. So if people see the same things over and over again, it's because they are the ones who keep interacting with it and don't interact with other things.

What you described is more like if you manually visit only one subreddit and don't look at any others. But in reality, you are shown many subreddits and the reddit algorithm prioritizes posts from the subs you most interact with and/or most recently subscribe to.

[u/donaldhobson → u/regoapps]

Problems with "the algorithm" can include.

1) Lots of other people interact with the junk. And the algorithm can't tell that you don't like it.

2) Almost all the content on the platform is junk.

3) You block cookies, turn off history etc. This stops the algorithm actually tracking you.

4) The algorithm gives you videos that are infuriatingly wrong. And you can't stop your self from telling everyone how wrong they are in the comments.

[u/boogswald → u/regoapps]

My algorithm recently found out I’m curious about backyard MMA fighting 😩 go back to white lotus memes please

[u/Pro_Scrub → u/TheGreyGuardian]

I don't have to imagine, that's what elementary school was like for me :(

[u/boogswald → u/TheGreyGuardian]

People have already lived like this. I know people in the USA who I cannot get to eat Indian food. Indian food is AMAZING.

[u/pailko → u/TheGreyGuardian]

I can name several people I've met who genuinely would only eat one thing for the rest of their life if they could

[u/BLYNDLUCK → u/TheGreyGuardian]

Parents do that shit.

[u/Taymac070 → u/illogicalhawk]

Even worse, those in control of the algorithm can subtly alter what is shown, in order to change your perceptions over time. This is already happening, and AI will accelerate it.

[u/TwilightVulpine → u/Taymac070]

Yeah, the assumption that we will be the ones with absolute control over whose interests the AI tends to is pretty naive. If social media algorithms can be tweaked to favor certain ideologies, imagine if works could be wholly constructed to impart a certain worldview.

[u/Nero_2001 → u/Taymac070]

Basically this is the reason why in dune they banned intelligent machines because those who control machines can control what we are shown.

[u/SylvieXX → u/illogicalhawk]

That's a cool perspective and I agree... This whole algorithm thing might not also be good for us...

[u/TFFPrisoner → u/SylvieXX]

We're already seeing the results of the effects on society

[u/memecut → u/illogicalhawk]

This is why I often browse reddit using "all, most popular last hour"

[u/gmherder → u/illogicalhawk]

Well said. I was thinking the same thing. The death of novelty would be a tremendous sadness

[u/itsmemarcot → u/illogicalhawk]

Counter argument:

"Future AI, make a cartoon series [or whatever] with something I will probably like, but I don't know I like yet. Focus on making me a more mature cartoon enjoyer. Make it challenge my current boundaries."

I side more with the argument that, when you really really love a piece of media, it's like a connection with another mind (or set of minds): the makers of that media. As the comic says: you feel what they felt. You partake in their struggles, their hopes, their joys or sorrows.

Consuming AI media, then, it's like making love with a sex doll. It doesn't matter how realistic it is: it would get old real quick because "there's nobody there".

[u/Special-Garlic1203 → u/itsmemarcot]

Humans as of right connect things oddly. We legitimately don't really get it. It's the irrationally and randomness of creative insight. As of right now, am algorithm likely can never replicate the way a human being will smash together 2 seemingly but not really random things in a way that tickles their fancy, and the way another person when exposed to it will go "huh yeah I dig it"

Could ai? Theoretically but where it's at right now its monkeys on type writers. You would have to spend years fine tuning it before it became worth you time, most will quit.. Algorithms are noticably bad at it. 

I just recently found a random band from a YouTuber I like. It doesn't really sound quite like anything I listen to. It makes me nostalgic for a time I wasn't alive. I love it so much. How would an algorithm ever guess that when I had literally no idea? It's through a shared human connection -- someone I am connected with in some ways tnrlkvn shared ideology / culture  liked it, and that drastically increased the chances I would. 

Part of why older TikTok was so popular was because it used that type of networking system. It recognizes when you behaved similarly to others, and then predicted that would continue. So truly customized AI would be moving away from where algorithms are strong to where there really noticeably weak

Maybe someday. But certainly no time remotely soon. 

[u/TwilightVulpine → u/itsmemarcot]

Unless we just make this AI magic mind reading, it will only know the things you already liked to base itself on. It won't know what it is that which you don't know you might like. At best it will recommend things other people with similar profiles liked, but that's not the same as really challenging your tastes.

Algorithms and ads today can guess things that you might be interested in, but they fail at it pretty often.

[u/illogicalhawk → u/TwilightVulpine]

I'd argue that they succeed at it surprisingly often due to the countless and often subtle ways our actions and interests are tracked and shared by various applications and technologies. There's sometimes the thought that we can curate what we feed the algorithm, but with devices potentially listening to our conversations, apps tracking our location and the places we visit, and much of this data being shared between companies, that's often out of our hands.

[u/TwilightVulpine → u/illogicalhawk]

I wouldn't. As an example, I tried using TikTok which is also mostly algorithmically driven. I had to hammer at it for a while, explicitly searching and following stuff I wanted and telling for it to stop recommending stuff I didn't like, for it to be mildly interesting to browse. At best it's on the level of keeping the TV on channel you like on the background, including how often you just don't care about what it got on schedule. Its manner of use means skipping a lot of what it tries to recommend you. Staying on it was more about staving off boredom than it was a testament to its ability to entertain. It would show some new stuff but I'd have it better simply by following subs of my interests over here. It's telling that Instagram, which got an ungodly amount of data on everyone, is just as mediocre at it.

But worse, whenever it "challenged" me, it was through blatant clickbait and pushing for hatewatching. Because they seek engagement at any cost. Not satisfaction, not enrichment, simply engagement. If it was even moderately effective, I dread to think what sort of infuriating bulshit such a tailored AI would resort to, to keep you stuck to it.

[u/itsmemarcot → u/TwilightVulpine]

But the assumption of the comic is that future generative AI will become a lot better in the future, inuding being able to do so. Which is not certain (as any prediction of the future), but also not implausible at all.

OP, OC and myself are just discussing the implications of this what-if future scenario.

[u/TwilightVulpine → u/itsmemarcot]

Well if it can be used in such a way, it will still more likely be used to manipulate you rather than give you everything you want and that which you don't know that you want yet. Even now this tech is costly, and must be bankrolled for a reason. They will want returns in some form or another.

But if anything we've seen a lot lately showing that the capabilities of tech are often overstated, and that too is done to manipulate us, to make it seem inevitable and all encompassing when the reality is far more limited and promises fail to materialize. Plenty has been said for and against fantastical AI futures, but not enough about more realistic ones and the veneer of marketing disguising them.

[u/protestor → u/itsmemarcot]

Even in your best scenario you are railroaded into liking whatever the AI spits to you. All the "new" things you stumble upon are just things the AI decided you will like.. it's not up to you to decide, your fate has been preordained.

Which is awesome! .. for whoever controls the AI, which will be people like Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, Sam Altman and the likes.

There's already talks about how there should be laws to limit AI.. which in practice means, laws that ensures AI will be always controlled by companies like OpenAI rather than by the common people.

Also: I'm not sure people will actually back down from AI just because it's artificial. People are hooked on their phones right now consuming streams of meaningless media nonstop, and a lot of this media is AI generated to some extent. People don't stop looking down their phones because it's addictive, and AI will only make things more addictive.

The end game is connecting this stuff directly to your mind, with things like Neuralink.. like in Ghost in the Shell

[u/donaldhobson → u/protestor]

> for whoever controls the AI, which will be people like Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, Sam Altman and the likes.

Not really. I mean they own the companies that make the AI. But they don't make the 1000's of small day to day decisions. An army of minimum wage workers rate content as good or bad for the AI to classify.

The end user gets a bit of control.

And to some extent, the AI does it's own thing, not controlled by any human.

[u/donaldhobson → u/protestor]

> There's already talks about how there should be laws to limit AI.

> which in practice means, laws that ensures AI will be always controlled by companies like OpenAI rather than by the common people.

The proponents of these laws are trying to avoid powerful AI that aren't controlled by any humans at all. Human control over AI is not automatic, and gets harder as the AI gets smarter.

[u/protestor → u/donaldhobson]

The proponents of these laws are trying to avoid powerful AI that aren't controlled by any humans at all.

That's what they say. What they are building, in reality, is regulatory capture

[u/EsperGri → u/protestor]

Except, you could just choose to get new media that isn't tailored, and there's no guarantee that the AI will be under a company's control, if people will go against such companies (people might not though...).

One big issue aside from that though is content overload, but it's one that already exists.

[u/Germane_Corsair → u/protestor]

How do you decide which new thing to try now? There’s no reason to assume you can’t just use the same method:

[u/rjrgjj → u/itsmemarcot]

Don’t assume the AI will be given the freedom to show you just about anything you want.

Which is actually the real serious danger of AI. People are always going to be attracted to slop. And yes, being able to overly curate your experience is what’s directly causing the rising tides of bigotry by creating smaller minds.

But someone is on the other side of the AI subtly manipulating what you’re allowed to see. If they know you like hamburgers and hate hotdogs and they want you to hate Black people, expect a lot of innocent looking AI pictures of white people eating hamburgers and Black people eating hot dogs.

[u/worotan → u/itsmemarcot]

Sounds like you believe the hype about ai, not what it can actually do.

[u/itsmemarcot → u/worotan]

No, I 'm just following the assumption of the comic: "in the future, generative AI is a whole lot better". Which is not certain, but not implausible either.

What OP, OC, and myself are discussing is the implications of this "what if" future scenario (which, again, is plausible).

[u/LineOfInquiry → u/illogicalhawk]

I think this is also why conservatives love AI so much: it never challenges them and just reinforces their existing assumptions about the world. It never has anything to say that they didn’t already agree with. Plus to them most art is just aesthetic anyway, so if AI can do that then it’s “successfully” replicated art: the message isn’t needed.

[u/jkurratt → u/illogicalhawk]

"AI, generate what I like, but take risks and challenge my taste."

[u/Sweet_Temperature630 → u/illogicalhawk]

Are you using that as an argument to keep trying AI? Cause otherwise I'm not sure the point of your comment on the post

Edit: thanks for pointing out what I missed. I'm at work and very tired, scrolling through here to keep myself awake waiting for my relief. Keep being groovy peeps

[u/Reks_Hayabusa → u/Sweet_Temperature630]

Think it’s more intended as a point out of the issue with AI tailoring everything to personal taste as limiting what personal taste can be.

[u/Tacosaurusman → u/Sweet_Temperature630]

I think it's more of a comment on the "personalised content" thing. If you have an AI create 30 song "Queen would've liked", you'll get songs sounding like previous made Queen songs.

But if Freddy Mercury kept making songs and innovating, they would maybe make completely different music, which you didn't even know you were going to like.

AI (currently) just kinda remixes existing music/stories/art, it doesn't look beyond that.

[u/AM_Hofmeister → u/Sweet_Temperature630]

They definitely meant the opposite. I'm kind of concerned how you came to the first impression you came to.

[u/trowzerss → u/illogicalhawk]

Also, what is art if you can't share and talk about it with others?

[u/illogicalhawk → u/trowzerss]

Ephemeral artists might have an issue with that premise, but I agree that, at it's root, art is about sharing experiences and perspectives and ideas, and AI fundamentally doesn't have any, just patterns essentially.

It's that meta-aspect, the talking about it all, that I think confuses a lot of the AI discussion, because whether or not a human or AI generated the 'art' being consumed, isn't the act of discussing it afterwards the 'same'? I don't think it is, but it's also true that AI-generated images can still spark discussions or entertainment and other things, and that's often where people get tangled up in trying to delineate the difference between the two.

[u/trowzerss → u/illogicalhawk]

Even ephemeral art is witnessed and experienced by others - in the comic they talk about all the AI art being highly personalised, and I extrapolated from that that it's different for each person, so no shared experiences. I've seen sand mandalas being made, and it was very much a group experience, both with creators and witnesses. Art as a process in itself, not just a finished product, is something that AI art also cannot do.

[u/ifandbut → u/illogicalhawk]

Sure, but have you considered how cool it would be for Picard to talk down Horus before he killed the Emperor? Cause if there is one dilppmat in all of fiction that could fix that father and son relationship is Picard.

[u/Penguinmanereikel → u/illogicalhawk]

Think about how recommendation algorithms select things that reinforce the things you already currently like. Now those recommendation algorithms will be used for generation algorithms.

[u/Kullthebarbarian → u/illogicalhawk]

"Oh don't you worry, we have this Random setting as well, just say the AI that you want something new, and he will make a fresh batch of something completely random, that you might like"

"Oh, and if you liked, they can generate Anime, film, Novela, And even merch for you to buy, just insert your credit card... oh well, we already have it, dont need it, just click to buy, buy, buy, buy, buy!!!!!"

[u/boogswald → u/illogicalhawk]

People’s tastes are already forced and limited, sometimes they do it themselves and sometimes they just don’t care to access more than what they know. There are people who only listen to music from the 70s and 80s. The new music isn’t good in their eyes… but they haven’t even looked at new music and tried it. They limit themselves. Zeppelin is the best band ever so why would I ever listen to Geordie Greep or Black Country New Roads? Why would I go see Poor Things? That movie sounds weird.

Sometimes tastes are forced externally though too. If you really really seek out art, you’re still going to be limited by the amount of time you have to try to appreciate it and you’re gonna end up making choices based on other people’s perception, whether that be what is marketed to you or what you find from critics or forums or whatever.

My conclusion from this…. People are going to love really lazy AI art that reinforces them. AI that sounds like white rappers talking about gaming is gonna be really popular versus a billy woods album. I really feel, without anything to confirm this, that people are getting lazier in how they approach art and there’s a huge availability to truly satisfy customers with thoughtless AI slop.

[u/donaldhobson → u/illogicalhawk]

I'm pretty sure you could make the AI do this with a little extra code.

Not to say that the AI will do this, but if the AI engineers want to do this, they can probably figure out how.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-armed_bandit

The AI showing you what it knows you like = exploit.

The AI showing you a new style that you might or might not like = explore.

[u/Nowhereman123 → u/illogicalhawk]

I've seen people, even on Reddit, gleefully saying how once AI gets good enough they'll be able to just tell an algorithm their ideal movie/video game/song or whatever and just have it generated for them, exactly like in this comic.

But that's exactly the problem! I don't want some algorithm to just spoon-feed me exactly what it thinks I want to see, I want to be challenged, stimulated, I want to see someone else's vision, have my perspective changed.

[u/Germane_Corsair → u/Nowhereman123]

Did it ever occur to you that both things can simultaneously happen? You could even combine them and use the AI to challenge your perspective.

[u/SKabanov → u/illogicalhawk]

People retreating into their comfort zone has always happened, though. To take a couple of music examples: 

• There are those studies that show that people's musical preferences tend to calcify in their 30s, and that was something that happened well before the current iteration of AI.

• Artists themselves get incentivized to produce the same content for their fans. Two bands that I've followed - Opeth and The Sword - faced big controversy in their fan groups when they shifted away from death- and stoner metal, respectively.

Saying that AI will keep people from finding new things is infantilizing people and removing their agency that is already inclined towards sticking to things that they like and are familiar with. If you genuinely are curious, you'll find a way to explore new stuff; it's this kind of instinct that needs to be welcomed and cultivated instead of fearing technological development, because the latter can easily lead you down the path where you shut down in fear of the God Box decades down the line like your parents may or may not do nowadays.

[u/Special-Garlic1203 → u/SKabanov]

customized AI algorithms taking over would unlikely be popular because we can literally see that people get frustrated with algorithms loops now, and that's with human venerated content pulling in new things. 

Music is sort of an outlier in that we literally crave familiarity moreso than novelty. That's why pop music is so repetitive but stories are constantly have to come up with variations of tropes because when we know what the ending will be, we get bored. 

[u/Samceleste → u/illogicalhawk]

Ok AI,

Generate a piece of art that is something new, something outside my comfort zone, something that I don't know I'd like. I am willing to take "risks" and experience new things.

[u/boogswald → u/Samceleste]

Someone may enjoy content like that specifically because this process made them feel smart or more open too. “Hey everyone, I participated with art that was different and very interesting! Aren’t I special?”

I don’t mean that to sound condescending too, it’s not unusual to tie art to someone’s identity

[u/BLYNDLUCK → u/illogicalhawk]

“AI, please create some content that is in contrast to my normal taste. Thank you very much”. /s

Always a good idea to be polite, because you just never know what the future holds lol.