r/history • u/[deleted] • Apr 27 '16
Discussion/Question How did Hitler get along with the Vatican, while killing Jews?
[deleted]
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Apr 27 '16 edited Apr 27 '16
Pius XII's standing with Mussolini was pretty shaky at times, and although there's a lot of controversy about this, as there is pretty much anything involving the Catholic church, I think the "moderate" opinion is that he didn't do too much to help or hurt, probably at least in part because he was worried about Mussolini and/or Hitler cracking down on the Vatican, and partly because he firmly believed that the Vatican must always remain politically neutral.
The Chief Rabbi of Rome Elio Toaff, said: "Jews will always remember what the Catholic Church did for them by order of the Pope during the Second World War. When the war was raging, Pius spoke out very often to condemn the false race theory." On the other hand, he was also (obviously) criticized for not being weak in the face of Nazism. I think that ultimately, many people expected Pius XII to act like a head of state, when in reality he was a religious figure. The Popes have often been criticized for attempting to maintain neutrality, or open communication, with individuals or countries whom the rest of the world has pretty much denounced. It's definitely a debatable tactic, but I think that in general it arises out of a belief that the Catholic church is supposed to have doors open to everyone, even (literally) Hitler.
You might be interested in the movie The Scarlet and the Black. Gregory Peck plays a real-life Vatican official who aided and abetted resistance fighters, risking the Vatican's neutrality, and who was also decorated by the Allies after the war.
EDIT: I also just saw your comment about not being aware that Pius XII attempted to help the Jews at all. That, as far as I know, is not really a topic of serious debate. He actually attempted to help sign an agreement between the Brits and a group of German generals who were attempting to throw out Hitler in pre-war Germany. He also authorized "discreet aid" to be provided to the Jews, and spoke out repeatedly against the Holocaust even before it was widely recognized. The World War II section of his Wikipedia article does a pretty good job of summarizing both sides of the debate, in my opinion
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u/Hippo1996 Apr 27 '16
Fun fact: Hugh O'Flaherty (The Scarlet Pimpernel) regularly visited his old nemesis Colonel Herbert Kappler (the former SS chief in Rome) in prison, month after month, being Kappler's only visitor. In 1959, Kappler converted to Catholicism and was baptised by O'Flaherty.
Edit: ya that was my relative that threatened Vatican Neutrality
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u/GuerrillaRodeo Apr 27 '16
The Church still had considerable influence on the people when Hitler came to power, especially in the Catholic South - Bavaria was (along with the Rhineland regions) actually one of the last areas without an NSDAP majority (Zentrum and BVP in particular were parties with a mainly Catholic electorate). Hitler - himself a baptised Catholic - knew that and determined that he had to make peace with the majority churches (Catholic and Lutheran) in the country or he would be ousted in no time. While his long-term plan was to 'phase out' Christianity in favour of 'Germanic Christianty' and, ultimately, some sort of neo-pagan belief system that put the (German) nation and its leader before everything else (he still made references to God though, describing failed assassination attempts as 'divine providence') and even incorporating old Germanic gods, he knew he needed the Church for the time being, even though he despised Christianity, deeming it the 'religion of losers'. The fact that the clergy used to be staunchly anti-communist at the time contributed to this decision as well.
Pertaining the actual question of Nazi Germany-Vatican relationships, both sides signed a treaty in 1933 which actively barred Catholic clergy from being politically active in Germany but guaranteed that the state would not interfere in Church matters.
Interestingly, that treaty is still in force today and - apart from regulating smaller things like the exemption of clergymen from military service and the approbation of religious teachers - provides the base for the state to collect church taxes (which go directly to the Church, but are collected by the state tax offices), with critics regularly pointing out that this violates the separation of church and state.
Mussolini had similar relations to the Church - it was him who actually made the Vatican a state in the first place, in exchange for the Pope's public support of his fascist government. Hitler honouring this agreement because he did not want to upset predominantly Catholic Italy might be what saved the Vatican until 1943 - that's when German soldiers occupied Rome. Probably because he was not their chief concern at the time, they left the Pope and the Vatican alone at the time (though there allegedly was a plan to kidnap the Pope, which was never executed), which was officially neutral like Switzerland - even though they would have had more than enough reason to invade since the Pope was in contact with German resistance fighters and some of his staff actively saved Jews.
tl;dr Hitler had a strong disdain for Christianity but didn't openly fight it because he a) needed it as an (uneasy, but nevertheless still rather powerful and necessary) ally to consolidate his power at the time and b) exploited its anti-communist tendencies to strengthen his anti-Bolshevik propaganda. Since he did not agree with the principles of Christianity it would have likely met the same fate as Judaism (or any other religion, for that matter), had he succeeded.
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u/MFMSancho Apr 27 '16
The Wikipedia article (not the most reliable source I know) on the the Pope at the time, which I believe is Pius XII, stated that he in fact aided Jews as often as he can, while still being neutral enough not to tempt Hitler into invading Italy and the Vatican. It did mention the criticism that Pius XII did not do enough and mentioned the book called Hitler's Pope. It also did talk about the support from the Jewish community saying that Pius XII did a lot to save lives. Check out the article for the more information. Hope I helped.
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u/LawrenceAurelius Apr 27 '16
"Of the 45,000 Jews counted in Mussolini’s census of 1938, about 8,000 died in Nazi camps. About 7,000 managed to flee. About 30,000 lived in hiding before being liberated by Allied troops, Mr. Schwarz said."
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2010/11/05/nyregion/05italians.html?referer=
Given the overall situation, I'm thankful for how "well" things turned out for Italian Jews (I'm an American Jew). So the Vatican did solid by my accounts since they contributed.
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Apr 27 '16
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u/porkchop_d_clown Apr 27 '16
Saving 800,000 lives is "not much"?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII_and_the_Holocaust
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u/BadBjjGuy Apr 27 '16
There're a lot of people who just on principle can't admit anything good about the Catholic Church. If it donated a kidney to their own mom they'd blame it for letting her get sick.
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u/theglandcanyon Apr 27 '16
In recent decades Catholic-Jewish relations have been very good. Pope John Paul II deserves a lot of credit for this. If this is the environment you grew up under, the general attitude of Catholics toward Jews in previous eras might come as a surprise. For instance, Father Charles Coughlin, a popular US radio broadcaster in the 1930s, used his platform to promote antisemitism and express sympathy for Hitler and Mussolini.
The Wikipedia page on Christianity and antisemitism has a lot of information on this topic. For example:
On April 26, 1933 Hitler declared during a meeting with Roman Catholic Bishop Wilhelm Berning (de) of Osnabrück: “I have been attacked because of my handling of the Jewish question. The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc., because it recognized the Jews for what they were. In the epoch of liberalism the danger was no longer recognized. I am moving back toward the time in which a fifteen-hundred-year-long tradition was implemented. I do not set race over religion, but I recognize the representatives of this race as pestilent for the state and for the Church, and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions.”
The transcript of this discussion contains no response by Bishop Berning. Martin Rhonheimer does not consider this unusual since, in his opinion, for a Catholic Bishop in 1933 there was nothing particularly objectionable "in this historically correct reminder".
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u/Lumpkyns Apr 27 '16
You might not realize the question you just asked. There's a lot of contention back and forth that I won't choose sides on, but some say the Pope supported Hitler's efforts. Some point to evidence that the Pope maintained good ties in order to secretly help the Jews.
Either way, there was a lot unfriendly feelings for Jews, even with Catholics. Most individuals ended up just following their national sentiment more so than the Church's. Just because they were God's chosen people once, they did kill Jesus. Allegedly.
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u/Darth-Trump Apr 27 '16 edited Apr 27 '16
You actually have a misunderstanding of what 'chosen people' means in reference to judaism. It has absolutely nothing to do with racial superiority or anything remotely similar to Nazi aryan racial superiority theories. 'Chosen People' simply means it is the people that choose to follow God's laws as set out in the 10 commandments and the old testament. 'Race' has no bearing on it. If you're chinese ethnicity or african or mongolian or whatever...if you convert to judaism and 'choose' to follow the rules of Judaism as set out in the old testament you are considered every bit as jewish as someone born into the faith. Nothing to do with 'race' at all.
(full disclosure: am Jewish and had a lengthy conversation with an Orthodox Rabbi just this past weekend during Passover about this very subject.)
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u/Melaninfever Apr 27 '16
613 commandments. People always get this wrong.
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Apr 27 '16 edited Oct 26 '17
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u/Melaninfever Apr 27 '16
Agreed. It's just a pet peeve if mine when people omit the vast majority of what are supposed to be gods divine mandates. Though it is funny how mentioning the other 603 commandments can blow people's minds.
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u/SafetyDanceInMyPants Apr 27 '16
Wait, we're up from 613 to 631 in 23 minutes? Sweet Messiah! Who are these people who keep coming up with these things? Next thing you know, I won't be able to have cheese on my shrimp burger, with all these laws.
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u/CanuckBacon Apr 27 '16
That's because Christians only follow the 10 given at Mount Sinai. Many don't realize that there were a lot more commandments given to the Jews. They only remember the ten they have in common.
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u/Mortar_Art Apr 27 '16
I did not know that...
Assumed Judaism's rules stemmed from the same traditions as I was taught when I was a kid.
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u/never_said_that Apr 27 '16
My understanding has been that the instructions given after the golden calf worship were temporary in nature. That's where The other 600 or so come from,right?
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u/porkchop_d_clown Apr 27 '16
What will really blow most Christian's minds is if you make them sit down and read Exodus and try to point out the 10 - and then they realize that the actual text doesn't neatly break down into 10 items.
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u/Sir_Scrotum Apr 27 '16
Why would that blow a Christian's mind? Leviticus is the book where there are many laws established such as those outlawing pork, sea scavengers, mixed fibers, etc. I, as a Christian could not care less about the 10 commandments as they are from what Paul in the NT called "the law", which was abolished/replaced by Grace through faith. The law works death by it's commandments, where Grace grants righteousness through belief. My mind remains unblown.
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u/porkchop_d_clown Apr 27 '16 edited Apr 27 '16
Because if I've learned nothing after 12 years of religious instruction and 50 years as a Catholic and a Baptist, fairly few Christians actually understand the origin and nature of the bible.
Edit: BTW - do you realize that Catholics and Protestants don't even count them the same way? I was very confused the first time I heard a baptist rattle them off, turning the 1st three into four, then combining the last 2 into one.
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u/Babajega Apr 27 '16
if you convert to judaism and 'choose' to follow the rules of Judaism as set out in the old testament you are considered every bit as jewish as someone born into the faith. Nothing to do with 'race' at all.
I thought you had to be born from a Jewish mother?
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u/TheBoyFromNorfolk Apr 27 '16
It's pretty hard to convert if you aren't born into it, you have to remember, Judaism is a tribal religion, it's not a mass religion like it's off shoots christianity or islam. But you can convert, if you are determined enough.
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u/moriartyj Apr 27 '16
I would not use tribal here. Rather, I would point out that Judaism is not just a religion but also an ethnic group
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Apr 27 '16
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u/TheBoyFromNorfolk Apr 27 '16
You know you are talking to a jew right? It's worse than that as well, jews don't just think they are better than the rest, they think their own particular sub group of jews is better than the rest, their synagogue does it right, other traditions do it weird and wrong and general snobbery abounds.
It's also impossible to not be considered a Jew if your mother is Jewish, because it's a tribe. It's not just a religion, so converting is pretty hard, maybe it's just a different level of descriptor between pretty hard and pretty much impossible. If you weren't born into that local jewish community, you'll always be an outsider, even if, like me, you're just a jew from a different area.
Actually making blanket statements about any group is pretty hard, because I know jews who counter the stereotype. But the stereotype definitely exists for a reason. (Looking at you Jew Soc. at Uni)
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u/moriartyj Apr 27 '16
Judaism is not a proselyzing religion, partly because throughout most of history it was illegal for them to convert people from Christianity, but one can easily convert these days
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u/Hippiebigbuckle Apr 27 '16
'Chosen people' is short for 'gods chosen people'. Its not representing a choice the person made. It means Jews were chosen by God, not the other way around. It definitely represents tribal superiority. But all religions push a divine superiority above others.
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u/Darth-Trump Apr 27 '16
You're only partially correct. Go sit with a rabbi and he'll explain. 'God's chosen people' means the people he wanted to follow his laws. It is up to the individual whether they then choose to do so or not. That's why people can convert into the religion. You're then accepted as one of the people that 'God Chose'. Get it? Nothing to do with 'superiority' in the sense you are implying unless you mean if you follow Jewish law then you're considered his 'Chosen' and if you don't you're not. Still has nothing to do with race. It's up to whether you want to follow the Jewish laws as set out in the old testament or not. That's very different than saying one 'race' like the Nazis did is better than others. Totally different.
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u/green_marshmallow Apr 27 '16
Wasn't the chosen people vs. people choosing debate what made the difference between Jesus and traditional Jewish teaching? It's my understanding that converting to Judaism is a recent phenomenon (like in the last 200 years recent).
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u/F1yMo1o Apr 27 '16
Even the Old Testament talks about converting to Judaism, quite a lot in fact. It usually discusses the laws of how you just treat converts when discussing things like orphans and widows as these are populations that could feel marginalized. Not a recent phenomenon.
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u/SimonGn Apr 27 '16
It absolutely does not refer to superiority at all. The story goes that "God choose the Jewish people to take on the extra responsibilities and laws to follow God" nothing to do with superiority, just more work.
It's like when your boss "Chooses" you to stay back for some unpaid overtime. It don't mean you are superior, it just means that you really love your boss so much that you would work during your personal time for free.
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u/Salmon_Pants Apr 27 '16 edited Apr 27 '16
It's not as black and white as this rabbi would have you believe.
Those parts of the Hebrew bible were written with the intention to separate and elevate the ancient Hebrews, and sought to contrast them with neighboring tribes/peoples in the Near East by ascribing superiority and uniqueness to themselves and their god. If you weren't a part of the Hebrew people, you couldn't really just decide to become one.
Now obviously after the destruction of the temple and with the spread of Jews in the diaspora, the conception of the Jews as an ethnicity/nation has been diminishing (to some people). In the modern context, many different interpretations exist (such as that of your rabbi).
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u/Telcontar77 Apr 27 '16
The funny thing is, I'm pretty sure if you asked a different rabbi, he'd probably have a different answer. And ask enough rabbis and you'd probably get enough answers across a spectrum.
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Apr 27 '16
It has nothing to do with the Israelites and their descendants? I'm pretty sure they say that it does in deuteronomy.
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u/Downvotesturnmeonbby Apr 27 '16 edited Apr 27 '16
Where's the whole only Jewish if your mother was Jewish thing come from then?
Edit: I'm not trying to be disparaging, I'm genuinely curious.
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u/FortuneGear09 Apr 27 '16
Perhaps because it is easy to prove you are your mothers child. Someone saw you come out or suddenly she was not pregnant the next day. The father could be anyone, so their religion could be anything. Safe bet to pin it on the mother.
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u/SketchTeno Apr 27 '16
Abraham is told his lineage would be bad-ass and endless... pre-lincoln Abraham gets a hot ass wife~ but wife wasn't popping out babies... and Mr.Ham is getting old with nobody to inherit his fortune... So, she tells Abe to bang Her maid... The Maid has a son~ we'll call him the father of the "not-Isrealite Abrahamians" Wife instantly regrets her decision. when Abe is about 100 years old, His wife Gives birth to a son~ Wife tell Abe to kick the other woman and her kid out the door (which he does) wife's son get the inheritance.
both sons are abe's, but when you use a matriach line, you get to make the line that eventually become isreal the special line, and to hell with everyone else~
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u/AustraliaAustralia Apr 27 '16
Yeh all of gods special people are always rich or kings. Its the original hollywood story where everybody drives a ferrari ad lives in a mansion.
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u/TheBoyFromNorfolk Apr 27 '16
The story as it is told is that during the return from Babylon (the slavery/mass exodus that did actually happen to the Jews) those who had Jewish mothers returned to Judea, while those who only had a jewish father did not. This is supposedly when the tribe became matrilineal.
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u/Ih8politics2 Apr 27 '16
Because most of the time you know who the mother is (they did not have DNA tests back then). The father could be anybody a Jew or a non-Jew. In those days it was a bigger problem especially if they had to travel for work or were at war. So to ensure that the baby was positively Jewish it goes with the mother. Hope that was clear.
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u/Darth-Trump Apr 27 '16 edited Apr 27 '16
That's just how it's determined if your kids are considered jewish or not by birth. It's through matriarchal descent. Some religions pass the religion on depending if your mother is the religion, some follow Patriarchal descent...from the father...and some religions use both. It still has nothing to do with any racial superiority thing. If you're a Chinese woman and you convert to Judaism and then have kids with a non-Jewish man of any ethnicity your child is still considered Jewish.
As for the reason, I've actually discussed this with a Rabbi as well and it is thought the reason this 'matriarchal descent' rule exists in the old testament is because mothers were considered to be the more likely parent to stay with the child and raise them in the jewish way of life...the father often was killed in battle, or had kids with other women, perhaps non-jewish etc. Also as the person below stated we know who the mother is and before the days of DNA testing there could be instances where the father was in question so it made sense to have it follow the mother's religion.
We see this today in that most 'single parent' families typically have the mother raise the kids. Not always of course there's exceptions but generally it's more likely. If you're interested in all the whys and details of Jewish law walk into a Temple and I'm sure the Rabbi would be happy to answer any questions. Like all these Abrahamic religions in our modern day some of these rules still make sense and some not so much.
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u/jaidit Apr 27 '16
Matrilineal descent was the law of the Roman Empire (it was to limit those who could be citizens). When the Romans conquered Judea, they implemented that law, and it stuck.
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u/Whiterabbit-- Apr 27 '16
is there a passage in the Old Testament about matriarchal descent?
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Apr 27 '16
You do realise that, much as with all religions, not all Jewish people believe the same thing? For example, some do not believe that a child with a non-Jewish mother can ever be Jewish, to the extent that they are forbidden to enrol in Jewish schools. Note that these are people with a Jewish father who married a convert, had kids and raised them in the Jewish faith. Apparently that's not Jewish enough.
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u/AustraliaAustralia Apr 27 '16
Chosen People' simply means it is the people that choose to follow God's laws as set out in the 10 commandments and the old testament. 'Race' has no bearing on it.
Except that the jews had dozens of laws where non jews were condemned to eternal slavery or genocide.
You cant be much of a jew if you dont even know its 613 mitzvot and even the 10c arent even 10 but 11 or 12 depending on how you count, and theres not a single 10 c, ther eare several all with different laws.
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u/g014n Apr 27 '16
I fail to see how this explanation makes any difference. Sure, they weren't talking about race as they didn't understood the concept, the distinction is made purely on theological grounds, but it has the same effect, in the end, imo.
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u/Maxco489 Apr 27 '16
Hitler wasn't exactly keen on making enemies he didn't want or need to beat. The Vatican/Catholicism was no exception. He didn't want to make Catholics all over the world upset by denouncing the church, so he tolerated them. Germany was allied with Italy, a very Catholic, albeit Fascist, nation. It's debatable whether the hyper-nationalistic views of fascism would prevail over religion, or the other way around. So, in the interest of stability, he decided to be nice to the Vatican.
In other words, I'm not sure how much it had to do with Jews.
EDIT: This is speculation on my part. I'm not educated on this facet of history.
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u/unsettledamerican Apr 27 '16
Could anyone recommend any books on the topic?
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Apr 27 '16
Hitler, the War and the Pope by Ronald Rychlak. It starts with Pius XI and goes to the end of the war, and has a ton of notes in the back including a part that discredits a sensational book that was apparently popular at the time.
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Apr 27 '16
Side note, Jews being he "chosen people" aren't the same as the concept of the nazi idea of the Aryan race.
Also, you could even argue the specific Jews, those that were alive during Abraham or Moses, were chosen. Not all Jews in all times and places.
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u/ZhouLe Apr 27 '16
Not a single mention yet of the idea of Jewish Deicide, that wasn't repudiated by the Catholic church until the '60s.
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u/stb128 Apr 27 '16
I would leave the Vatican's policies and actions to better minds than mine, but my understanding is similar to what others have posted here: the Church was under significant duress but helped many Jews covertly.
On a more "micro" level, I would direct you to the story of St. Maximillian Kolbe. He was an anti-Nazi polish priest that was tortured and killed at Aschwitz when he took the place of another person to be starved to death.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_Kolbe
The tale of the Catholic Church in WWII is complicated, but I would urge everyone not to paint with too broad a brush.
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u/JJDude Apr 27 '16
you must have missed the part where since the medieval times Jews were seen by your basic European Christians as "Christ Killers" and discriminated against. Hitler simply took this age old bias and made a political career out of it. There's no special love from the Catholics for the Jews... A great number of victims of the Inquisition, a great Catholic tradition, were in fact Jews.
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u/collectiveindividual Apr 27 '16 edited Apr 27 '16
the RCC used WWII to launch a forced conversion crusade against Serb orthodox in Croatia. An estimated half a million Serb orthodox died in these Catholicism camps.
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u/nitinc Apr 27 '16
To get an insightful idea about the narrative of the Vatican and their relationship with the Third Reich, check out this book called God's Bankers: A History of Money and Power at the Vatican by the brilliant Gerald Posner. The specific chapters about the time of WW2 are fascinating.
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u/betelguese1 Apr 27 '16
I thought the camps were clandestine. Like no one except the Germans running it and the prisoners in it knew about the camps and genocide until after they got liberated.
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u/porkchop_d_clown Apr 27 '16
Everyone heard the stories but no one believed them because it sounded like the sort of propaganda both sides used in WWI.
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Apr 27 '16
This interview might give some answers on the current state of the debate on the relationship between the vatican and the nazis:
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u/Whkeck15 Apr 27 '16
The Vatican made a deal with Italy in the 1930's where the pope recognized Italy as a country and that Italy would defend the Vatican in a war and the Vatican would remain neutral in all wars
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u/Yupanqui Apr 27 '16
The same way that the Vatican got along with Argentine Dictator Jorge Videla while killing thousands of catholic political activists during the last Argentine military dictatorship (1976-1983).
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u/Touvejs Apr 27 '16
Actually, I'm surprised nobody else has brought this up. There was an official "treaty" between the Pope Van Popen (Okay, the Holy See, technically) and the Nazis, which basically required both parties to allow the other operate freely. It was called the Reichskonkordat, read more about it below.
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u/_The-Big-Giant-Head_ Apr 27 '16
Hitler killed a lot of Christian priests and nuns and even had a concentration camp at Dachau just for them where Dr. Klaus Karl Schilling, did perform malaria test on them source
It doesn't really answer your question but I just though it is relevant.
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u/sythswinger Apr 27 '16
The Jews stopped being the chosen people and started being heretics when Christianity rose to power. Pre-holocost, antisemitism was an every day practice, and it's the whole reason Israel was crated. A lot of people blamed the Jews for killing Christ. The whole, "Jews are people too" thing only exists now because if you hate the Jews, your just like Hitler. Basically Hitler didn't hate the Jews in spite of his being Catholic, his being Catholic fueled the flames.
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u/justalamename Apr 27 '16
Simple answer. Difficult subject. Catholics have what is referred to as replacement theology. They believe they have replaced the Jews as the chosen people and are the one true church. That is why they got along with the Nazis. Look at the history of the Catholic Church and Judaism. Catholic Church has not been a friend of the Jewish people, and only recent Pope's have attempted to fix this. But only to secure a place in Jerusalem for the Catholic Church. The church still believes Jews must become Catholic to be saved, and if they don't convert they are no different than any other non Catholic. I am a Former Catholic.
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u/NormandyTaxi Apr 27 '16
But only to secure a place in Jerusalem for the Catholic Church. The church still believes Jews must become Catholic to be saved, and if they don't convert they are no different than any other non Catholic. I am a Former Catholic.
I'm curious about this in light of Nostra Aetate...do you have any scholarly sources?
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u/Containedmultitudes Apr 27 '16
People are being way too soft on the Catholic Chirch here. The Pope ordered the Catholic center party dissolve so that the fascists could be put in power. Hitler's first treaty was with the Catholic Church giving him their support and them control of education. Every year Hitler's birthday was celebrated from the pulpit at mass. The only Nazi to be excommunicated was Goebbels because he married a divorced Protestant. The holocaust was built on a charge of deicide the church expounded from the pulpit for nearly 2 thousand years.
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u/listyraesder Apr 27 '16
On the other hand, the Vatican used its formidable intelligence network to aid the German Resistance, and through the Pope's conversations with Mussolini and the leaking of information by high-ranking Wehrmacht officers, sent advanced warning to the Western European states of the invasions. The Pope also attempted to broker a deal between Britain and high-ranking military officials who wanted reassurance of peace if they assassinated Hitler.
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Apr 27 '16
This. I wrote a less coherent version of this elsewhere in the thread. Hitchens did a nice bit on this in "God is not Great."
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u/MorRochben Apr 27 '16
when you have no army you tend to try to stay on the good side of the guy that is murdering everyone
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u/im_from_detroit Apr 27 '16 edited Apr 27 '16
I'm not seeing any clear, good answers so far so I'll weigh in, having some background in this from seminary.
First, the misconception that Pope Pius XII did anything more than tolerate Hitler as a means to allow the church to survive, comes from the actions of the papal nuncio (ambassador) to Germany during the Nazi era. Remember when Pope Francis met Kim Davis during his most recent trip? It was set up by the nuncio to the US, who is no longer in that position. But it seriously changed what people thought about the pope, at least until they were able to release a statement from the Vatican.
As the direct line of communication to the Pope, the nuncio can greatly influence the public view of the Pope. They're the ones who recommend to the pipe which priests should become bishops, and which priests will be given the title monsignor. As such, they can limit the choices the Pope has to, in the case with ww2 Germany, only those sympathetic and supportive of Nazis. Then, those bishops compel the priests to fall in line with the Nazis. This in combination with the goal of survival, Pius XII tolerated the nuncio until he was able to remove him.
So what did the Vatican do during the war? The Nazis knew the Vatican would be seen by political refuges as a way to survive the war, and that the Vatican would likely use their sovereignty to protect them. Indeed, thousands of allies and persecuted groups were under the protection of the Vatican by the time the Germans withdrew from Rome. Most outside of the walls, the Vatican financed the renting of hundreds of houses around Rome, and forged documents for the refugees. One particular Monsignor would dress up as an interested renter and secretly arrange the houses.
The Catholic church, despite her marred history with the Jewish people, recognized the evil that the Nazis were. The Nazis belief system highly conflicted with the core principals of the Catholic church. The support the church received internationally was given, knowing that the German dioceses had defected, and were operating separate from the church. The church never wanted to kill Jews. Convert, yes, but not kill them.
If you want, there's a fairly accurate movie, The Scarlet and the Black, About the Vatican during the Nazi occupation. The only real discrepancy is that Pius XII is reluctant to help refugees in the movie, but spearheaded it in real life. I would recommend it if you really want to get some of the nuances of what was going on during that time.
Edit: kim Davis was the Kentucky county clerk that went to jail for not doing her job, by refusing the issue marriage licenses, if you were having trouble remembering
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u/ooyama Apr 27 '16 edited Apr 27 '16
Incidental, but you might want to read about something called the Inquisition if you believe that partially shared theological doctrine has ever stood in the way of Catholics treating non Catholics appallingly.
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u/porkchop_d_clown Apr 27 '16
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII_and_the_Holocaust
The pope operated a secret network that smuggled 800,000 jews out of Hitler's reach. Does that count?
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u/hunted_gathered Apr 27 '16
A majority of Brits during WWII were already not supporters of the Catholic church, being members of the Church of England, Church of Scotland, the Church in Wales, etc. There were also a number of protestant Christian groups at the time. With the amount of nationalism at the time, I imagine it would have strengthened the support in everything English, such as the Anglican church, and diminished the support in an establishment that was in the heart of fascist Italy.
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u/rgoierj Apr 27 '16
Actually, I think this should be discussed from a political stand point.
Before WW2, The Papal States and Rome had been occupied by Italy since forever however Italy did not want to invade Rome itself because it would be extremely bad image, papal infallibility, etc. After some years, Mussolini signed the Lateran Treaty and established Rome as a independent state , Rome gave up most of what land they had left and in return Rome give Italy public support for some financial aid. Since Germany and Italy are buddy buddy, Rome naturally had to support Germany as well.
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u/NormandyTaxi Apr 27 '16
Scholar of religious history here: Two book you probably want are From Enemy to Brother by John Connelly, and Aryan Jesus by Susannah Heschel. The former more than the latter for this direct question. But the latter is super interesting on the relationship between German Christians and Nazi ideology.
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Apr 27 '16
It was politically expedient to not inflame Catholics around the world (especially in fascist Italy). Hitler wanted the war to be won first, so why strain relations his closest ally, as well as 1/3 of the German population.
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u/dashwsk Apr 27 '16
You are looking for logic and integrity in a religious organization. That tells me that you do not know very much about religious organizations. "But how could the ____ seemingly contradict themselves?" Applies to all of them at some point in time and most of them at most points in time.
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u/Sambaloney Apr 27 '16
Commies were killing lots of Christians and generally disliked religion. Hitler was fighting commies. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and all that. Obviously what I said is a gross over-simplification, but I think that is the gist.
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u/zknight137 Apr 27 '16
For The Vatican it was support the dictator who still liked Christianity or the other dictator who was sending anyone who claimed any religion to his Winter Wonderland of Fun for the glory of the Motherland
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u/WhycantIusetheq Apr 27 '16
The church was actually involved in secretly saving tons of Jews from the Holocaust, as well.
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u/Melecheveryday Apr 27 '16
Hatred was fomented by the Papacy for centuries leading to the Holocaust. Jews in Italy were forced to wear yellow stars long before they did in Nazi-Europe. The first Jewish ghetto was in Italy and centuries of persecution and anti-Jewish laws was supported by the Vatican. Shocking, isn't it.....Read David Kertzer's The Popes Against the Jews. He pored through newly-released Vatican archives that explains how years of disgusting treatment of Jews at the hands of the Papal States (until the 19th century) paved the way toward Hitler's success. The Catholic Church is responsible for centuries of mistreatment of Jews - from Italy through Eastern Europe.
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u/[deleted] Apr 27 '16
Vatican was in pure survival mode, they wanted to ensure that after all the killing was over that they would still exist.