r/socialism • u/death-and-gravity • Dec 16 '18
AMA I am part of the Yellow Vests movement, AMA
Hi everyone,
I'm from France, and have been observing, as well as taken parts in the Yellow Vests protests of these past month. I was in Paris last week and assisted to the riots of December 8th, and was in the protests in Nice on November 17th, 24th, December 1st, and yesterday. I dont consider myself to be the most involved, some people have been spending most of their times camping outside for the last month, I've just demonstrated every Saturday. I've also been following the movements via the press and social media, since I think it is a historic turning point.
First off, a few observations :
• It's not about fuel prices. This is what started it, but the sentiment of injustice in the population is much deeper than just the price of gas.
• Police repression is extremely violent. An old lady was killed by the police in Marseille, at least tow protestors lost their hand, and a few dozen an eye to the brutality of repression.
• "Violence" (as in property destruction) is getting more and more accepted as a legitimate political action, and the destruction I could saw in the Paris riots last week was politically motivated, targeted to symbolic targets, and encouraged by the crowd.
• Institutions (Unions, political parties, local governments) are widely rejected by the Yellow vests, as they are considered to be a part of the problem via their inaction, and high perceived levels of corruption.
• The yellow vests have so far strongly resisted injonction to provide representatives for negotiation. This has gone as far as self-proclaimed représentatives getting death threats.
• The movement is politically diverse and confused. Right now, the more consensual demands are that of more money for the poorer, and more democracy via the instauration of a referendum regime, but is still very unfocused at the moment.
These are a few of my observations about the movement so far. I'll be happy to answer any question you may have.
As a bonus, and to give you an idea of how it is on the ground, here are some of the songs I heard the most played during the protests in Nice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6_7Mbp76jU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3O1Xro7oAI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TImnxJQFbXg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=877R5K51ljU
and are some pictures I took at the protests over the last two weeks (first series is in Paris on December 8th, second one was in Nice yesterday).
And finally, I was asked to provide my political alignement. I consider myself a libertarian anarchist, but the most important thing to my eyes is fighting capital, fascism and surviving the end of the world.
Edit : gold!? Yooooyahh!
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u/gorgeousbshaw Dec 16 '18
I just want to send my solidarity from Ireland comrade, you're an inspiration to the world.
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u/Lyrr Connolly Dec 17 '18
Irish socialist here. I'm not saying we should emulate these exact protests, but the Referendum d'Initiative Citoyenne seems like a great idea to implement within our political system, perhaps as a petition system to trigger the Seanad to hold a referendum.
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u/PeacefulComrade Dec 16 '18
Is it a popular idea among the Yellow Vests to expand the weekend street protests to a general strike or at least go out every day/set up street camps, etc.? How radical and persistent are your local participants and yourself? What's the most common end goal of the movement at the moment in your opinion? And thank you for doing this, wish you all well.
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 16 '18
They already camp on roundabouts all week, it's just that more people are available during the weekends.
Participants are, for many of them first timers. I'm doing my best to radicalise them though.
The most common goal right now is the adoption of the RIC (Referendum d'Initiative Citoyenne, or citizen initiative referendum). The idea is any proposition can be submitted to referendum if there is enough popular support behind it.
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Dec 16 '18
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 16 '18 edited Dec 17 '18
The Réunion island has been one of the most active overseas territory in the movement. At the moment, the movement is not concerned by the fate of people in french overseas territories, or in other parts of the world. This is an extremely local movement, organizing at the scale of cities and villages, and drawing from shared experience. In short, people went together to protest the injustice they saw in the rise of fuel taxes and the massive tax breaks the rich have benefited from, and had the occasion to talk about their issues. This is very much a movement build from shared experience at the local level, and I doubt it can be relevant to the needs of people far away. I'm however certain most of us would be very supportive of anyone putting on a vest and fighting for a better life anywhere.
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u/Sergeant_Static Socialist Party USA Dec 16 '18
First, let me say that the protestors in France have much support from the United States, and we're inspired by your courage and willingness to act. Solidarity, comrade.
As some others have mentioned, the Occupy Wallstreet Movement in the United States was in a similar position of a long-term mass protest against political corruption and wealth inequality, but the protests didn't have clearly defined end goals, which left capitalist institutions in the United States largely unaffected when the movement lost steam.
Right now, the more consensual demands are that of more money for the poorer, and more democracy via the instauration of a referendum regime
I'm not suggesting, of course, the Yellow Vest protests restrict their goals to a handful of modest reforms, but having clear demands for the government will make it easier for protestors to motivate themselves and harder for the government to "wait it out."
Are there any concrete policies or reforms along these lines you see wide support for?
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 16 '18
From another answer:
The most common goal right now is the adoption of the RIC (Referendum d'Initiative Citoyenne, or citizen initiative referendum). The idea is any proposition can be submitted to referendum if there is enough popular support behind it.
This is the measure i have seen the most support for, and the movement seems to have put itself whole behind this demand, since there is a sense everything else can obtained once we gain this. Another demand I have seen a lot of support for, and that makes me hopeful in zero homeless. This is within our grasp, there are more unoccupied homes than homeless in France, and I find it very heartening that the lower and lower middle class has this reflex of using their power to ask for measures in the interest of people worst off than themselves. (And I saw quite a lot of homeless people with a yellow vests in Paris last week).
The list of revendications is in flux, but right now, a partial list of consensual demands would include
• Public investment in thermal insulation for buildings
• Tax by buisinesses fairly (ie more)
• Stop building big box stores at the edge of cities and encourage mom and pop's stores in the center to encourage walkability and decrease car dependency.
• No pension bellow 1200€/month
•Protect french industries and stop delocalizing production to low-wage countries
•Anyone working on French soil must have the same rights as french workers (currently not the case with EU regulations).
•Stop paying interest on the national debt.
•Better treatment for migrants (providing housing, food, social services....)
•A maximum salary of 15,000€/month
•Prohibit the privatization of national properties
•Tax fuel for cargo ships and airplanes.
These are really consensual, except maybe for the reactionary fringe. They have been decided via polls on facebook groups with <90% accord.
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u/Patterson9191717 Socialist Alternative (ISA) Dec 18 '18
It’s a shame people are camping on roundabouts rather than squatting in vacant properties.
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Dec 16 '18
How is coordination with organized labor?
You said "Institutions" (including unions) are "widely rejected by the Yellow vests". What's the dynamic between yous and organized labor?
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 16 '18 edited Dec 16 '18
Organized labour has been a joke in France for the past 40 years. One thing to understand about France is that the liberal elites have been working very hard to destroy ou social system and labor codes for the past 60 years. Unions do push back on this, but I have never once in my lifetime seen them actually push for positive change, all they have ever done is reacting to a new liberal "reform". We have been losing our social system bit by bit over the past 35 years following a sad routine : government pass a 100% shit law, unions are outraged, call for strikes and demonstrations, people demonstrate in a pitiful way, repeating the union's slogans blared for some soundsystem on a truck, government negotiates with union leaders to agree to make the reform only 50% shit, this is a great day for dialogue and democracy yaddy-yadda, and the remaining 50% of the reform is passed in silence 5 years later, when the Overton window has shifted right yet again.
This is my opinion on organized labor in France, which is shared by quite a lot of protesters. I have however seen quite a lot of union members in the demonstrations, who are finally free of organizing without waiting for orders. Many of us are tired of being the foot soldiers of an union that is not doing its job, have grown cynical of French unions. Tis is in my opinion one of the reasons why unions are not welcome.
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Dec 16 '18
Hmm, thank you. Sounds similar to what I've heard MLM's describe as a "Labor Aristocracy" but I honestly don't know much about that.
Is there any organization on the ground with you? No remotely radical labor unions? Or radical parties?
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 16 '18
Organizations are kept out of the movement. From what i've seen, members are welcome, the organizations ain't (and in some tentatives of electing Yellow vests representatives, union and party members were prohibited to be candidates).
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Dec 16 '18
Then how are the yellow vests organized? How are representatives chosen? How are goals established? How is strategy planned?
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 16 '18
Its mostly not, and that's an issue. Organizing hour by hour via facebook is nice and all, but many are concerned about the limits of this approach when it comes to setting a longer term strategy. In some places, popular assemblies are being set up, I have hopes for this approach.
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Dec 16 '18
That is concerning. I hope those popular assemblies work, I fear without structure events like this become like Occupy and lose their revolutionary potential.
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u/Lyrr Connolly Dec 17 '18
Movement's like these absolutely do need a form of structure and leadership. It doesn't have to be a centralised figure or wholly listened to, but a representative that has the backing of the foot soldiers of the protest.
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u/parentis_shotgun Dec 17 '18
I apologize for this site being in English, but it's a really quick way to set up group polls. Not sure if any French comrades might find it useful to vote on measures, whether before, or even during, actions.
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 17 '18 edited Dec 17 '18
They already use Facebook in amost exclusively, for the best and for the worst.
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u/ASocialistAbroad Dec 16 '18
First of all, thanks for the perspective, comrade.
I do have a question, though. Of course, we all know that it's a blatant lie that the Yellow Vests is actually a far-right movement. But what would you say is the relationship between the Yellow Vests and the fascists?
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 16 '18
Its not that simple. In paris, I saw antifas do a pretty good job at keeping the fascists out. But still, yesterday in Nice, a old woman kept telling me how immigration is a problem and climate change isn't real. So there are a bit of everything, and fascists are definitely present, but they seem to make up a tiny minority (I live in a very reactionary region BTW).
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Dec 16 '18
But still, yesterday in Nice, a old woman kept telling me how immigration is a problem and climate change isn't real.
Sounds exactly like a MAGA/Trump voter in my country.....
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Dec 16 '18 edited Dec 16 '18
Hi thanks for doing this, here's a few questions that I have:
- I've read some reports about some potential hesitation by ethnic minorities to join in, even though they have the same concerns as those who are participating, so while there was this one group from les banlieues who called for folks to join, have they really? Do you think that hesitations are there?
- In extension to that, do you think that most on the streets today are much older and white (I also read that somewhere)?
- Do you think this recent bout of protests are different, given that, in France, protests are pretty usual?
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 16 '18 edited Dec 16 '18
1: The movement is indeed pretty white, but has received support from some anti racist organization, I have met quite of lot of French people of north african descent who live and work low paying jobs in the sprawling urbanised areas. Some "segregated“ communities from the banlieues, mostly high school students have been rising up too. This is however not a problem specific to the yellow vests, "Toubabs" such as myself have been disproportionately in majority in all of the social movements I can remember, and it was one of the issues that preoccupied us when i was part of the students contestation last year (but that's a story for another day).
2: The mean age of protesters is 42, which fits the mean age of the french population pretty well.
3: Yes! Protests in France are usually useless. It's just marching sandwiched in between two trucks for either one of the national unions, and repeating their slogans, to end up loosing. Since protests are so common, politicians tend not to give a fuck. Here, the amount of destructions, and its mutation from "a few violent individuals" to "almost everyone", as well as the increasing support it gets from the rest of the movement is pretty new. The government is also pissing theirselves. Last Saturday, an helicopter was kept ready all day to evacuate Macron from Paris, and armored vehicles were used by the gendarmerie for repression, which is a first for city operations in mainland France.
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Dec 16 '18
Thanks for the quick response.
Interesting, I figure this moment was different given the lack of leadership, and just the randomness of it. But that aspect of French political history still seems present here, I mean, France's inequality isn't anywhere near as bad as it is in the US, yet protests have been few and far between.
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u/TheNathanNS Kim Il-sung Dec 16 '18
Do you think the actions of those in France will inspire others in Europe to do a similar movement?
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 16 '18
I hope so. But I also hope the movement will not be interpreted a reactionary and further bolster the far right on the continent.
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Dec 16 '18
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u/treatbone Dec 17 '18
Hi haurà un merder que t'hi cagues, prepara't per rebre de valent. Encara em foten mal les ferides del darrer cap de setmana |-:
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u/ingloriabasta Dec 16 '18 edited Dec 16 '18
I just received an E-mail from "aufstehen" movement in Germany with an invitation to protest against the housing policies in Germany. The invitation says we should wear yellow vests and write "aufstehen" on them. There was reference to the yellow vest movement happening in France.
Considering "aufstehen" is initiated by a leftist association, primarily headed by Sarah Wagenknecht (Die Linke party), how do you feel about this movement using the yellow vest movement to freeride on a truly bottom-up, spontaneous, people generated protest?
Edit: If anyone is interested I'll be happy to post the E-mail.
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 16 '18
To me, the yellow vest is not the property of anyone, and it's not the object itself that is important. I don't wear one for instance.
To me, the high-vis jacket is a symbol of vulnerability. You wear high visibility when you are vulnerable in a dangerous environment. In this sense, It does not bother me that people genuinely vulnerable wear it a sign of protest. But there is no need to fetishize the object, the vest is not important, meeting together, organising at the local scale, and figuring out concrete ways of solving our daily issues by political means is what counts.
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Dec 17 '18
I would be very interested in seeing that email
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u/ingloriabasta Dec 18 '18
See below. Do you speak German, or should I provide a translation?
Hallo XXX,
zieh Dir eine gelbe Weste an, schreib mit einem Filzstift "Aufstehen" drauf und komm mit uns am Mittwoch, 19.12., um 9 Uhr vor die Konzernzentrale der Deutschen Wohnen (Mecklenburgische Straße 57, 14197 Berlin), um gemeinsam zu zeigen: Grund und Boden, Häuser und Wohnungen müssen dem Gemeinwohl dienen und nicht der Geldgier von Investoren und Aktionären!
Wir freuen uns auf Deine Teilnahme!
In Frankreich ist mit den Gelbwesten eine mächtige Bewegung entstanden. Hunderttausende Menschen sind unterwegs, die es nicht länger hinnehmen, dass die Regierung eine Politik im Interesse der Reichen und gegen die breite Masse der Bevölkerung betreibt. Sie treten mit einer sozialen Agenda an und haben bereits jetzt schon mit der Wucht ihres Protests Macron zu Kurskorrekturen gezwungen.
Die Gilets Jaunes fordern u.a. die Begrenzung der Mieten und mehr bezahlbaren Wohnraum, deren Mangel auch bei uns in Berlin katastrophale Ausmaße annimmt.
Deshalb wollen wir endlich das Grundgesetz ernst nehmen und kämpfen an der Seite der Initiative "Deutsche Wohnen und Co. enteignen" für eine Vergesellschaftung der großen Immobilienkonzerne, die skrupellos mit unserem dringend benötigten Wohnraum spekulieren und aus unserem Grundbedürfnis riesige Profite herausschlagen.
Während die Parteien entweder auf stur schalten oder gerade noch Beschlüsse fassen, gehen wir auf die Straße !
Dein Aufstehen Berlin Team
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Dec 18 '18
Thanks friend! I speak a little German and the rest I should be able to cover with google translate haha :) Thanks again, really appreciate it
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u/ingloriabasta Dec 18 '18
No problem. I have grown a little sceptical of top-down initiated movements that do not properly acknowledge this fact- I experienced this to be a huge problem within Diem25. I was an activist long enough to see that they really struggled with internal democracy, and even the most progressive members sometimes seemed to lack a basic understanding of democratic processes. Probably because it is not cultivated in our society. Or even if there's the awareness, sometimes the advancement of your own person seemed to stand before the cause. But I get carried away.
Anyways, I am sympathetic towards "aufstehen", and at the moment observing how things will develop. Still, I would like to see more transparency even in the early stages. E.g., it is signed with "your Aufstehen Berlin Team". Who is that?
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u/Lazerc0bra all governments are liars and murderers Dec 16 '18
What's it like being so fucking awesome?
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 16 '18
The comrades who have been freezing their asses off on roundabouts for the past month, those who have been protecting us from being beaten by police last week, those who gave a beating to a fascist leader on December 1st, all all of those who have been killed in road blocks (7 so far), have lost a hand or an eye to police brutality are the real heroes there, and also sadly martyrs for some of them. I'm just a coward who only goes to demonstration of Saturdays, there are many people way more devoted and brave than I can ever be.
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Dec 16 '18
How many people in this movement are communists or of other political parties?
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 16 '18
I have no idea. It skews left and far left, and many of my communist friends participate, but I would be hard pressed to give a number.
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u/NightFang Dec 16 '18
How do you see the movement navigating the problems that faced the Occupy movement?
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 16 '18
I am not aware of the details of the Occupy movement, I was not politically active at the time, and it's on another continent. To me, it's too early to tell, and I have hope when i see how effectively the Yellow Vests are able to coordinate without any leaders (and I have of course used this observation to remark how an anarchy can work).
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u/gorgeousbshaw Dec 16 '18
Have there been many people assemblies set up that you know of?
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 16 '18
There have been two as far as I know, I hope they set up one I'm my area (my involvement is limited to demonstrations, I can't find time to help organizing).
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u/gorgeousbshaw Dec 16 '18
i have been reading about them during the week.
As a follow up question is there anything I can do from outside France to help you guys?
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 16 '18
There is no fundraising set up as I'm aware of, and energy and time are the real limits to the movement. It is really local, and I have no idea how it can be supported from afar.
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u/IMPOX Hammer and Sickle Dec 17 '18 edited Dec 17 '18
Thank you for the AMA, comrade.
On December 8th there was a huge protest in Turin (Italy) against the Turin-Lyon high speed railway project. It was a big thing since it has been the hugest protest in almost 30 years of the NoTav movement existence (there were more than 70.000 protesters) and some Gilet Jaunes from the territories of Maurienne valley got in - proof 1 and 2.
Can I ask you if this has a chance to be a prelude to a bigger mass mobilization in Europe and among the world, since many social movements met an unfortunate fate out of their national boundaries?
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 17 '18
It's a turning point, at least for France. Macron has most likely lost any chance of reelection, and he was largely seen by the liberal media (we leftists did not fall for it as much) as being the French Merkel. To me, it is the sign that liberalism is not compatible with even a simulacrum of democracy. It remains to be seen how it turns out. To me, there is hope as many people at the local level have managed to overcome their differences and the injunction to divide ourselves, and have been able to organise at the local level to start to build a political program (even though the infiltration of far right rethoric is concerning, and needs to be fought by education).
As for the rest of Europe, many countries face the same issues as France, with the population having liberal policies shoved down their throats against their will, so the conditions are there. However, we have a very strong tradition of rebellion in France, and it remains to be seen how the movement can take root in the context of other cultures.
I am also glad to see the NoTav movement getting some exposure here (are you from Italy?), we are facing big, useless, destructive and expensive projects all other the place, and I hope this idiocy can be stopped. I grew up in Grenoble BTW, so this is quite a local issue for me, funny to see it pop up here.
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u/BobAvarkian Revolutionary Caliphate Party-USA Dec 16 '18
How can you ensure that your movement does not end up like the Occupy movement?
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 16 '18
I believe the referendum can be pushed to this effect.
We already had kind of an occupy movement in France by the way. it was called "Nuit Debout" (Night standing), and was a loose network of public discussion groups that started in 2016 and ended last year. But there were only a few dozen people talking on town squares for a few months. I honestly dont know enough about Occupy to comment, but i believe the lessons from Nuit Debout can lead us to avoid the traps of inaction, and becoming a café (cafés are nice, but they rarely change the world).
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u/RedxGeryon Space Communism Dec 16 '18
Do you think the Holiday season will affect the momentum of the Yellow Vests, and in what ways? Solidarity from USA, you are an inspiration to us all, especially those trying to organize for EarthStrike.
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 16 '18
I don't know. It will certainly dip during the holidays, but it remains to be seen if it picks up afterwards.
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Dec 16 '18
I'd like to send my solidarity from the U.S. I actually have a couple questions. How do you guys protect yourself from police violence? (Do you use weapons in self defense, etc.) For comrades who are injured, how do they go about getting help? (I assume hospitals may be crowded or ineffective in certain areas). And also, as someone who is actually witnessing this and living through it, do you see an end in sight? Do you think this movement will accomplish anything? (I sure hope it does).
I wish you the best! Stay safe and keep us updated comrade!!!
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 16 '18 edited Dec 16 '18
Personally, I try to get my ass as far away from cops whenever possible. Bringing weapons is not a good idea, it escalates situations. Most people who are willing to stand their ground, or who want to see what's going on cop side wear helmets are protective goggles to protect themselves from rubber ball launchers, tear gas, grenades (yes, cops have fucking grenades) and batons. It is however legally risky, some asshole judge may decide you wearing a helmet was a sign you intended to fight with cops and give you time for this (and cops routinely lie to get convictions). The black block is also quite effective at securing and area during a protest, I stayed with them in the riots in Paris, and they kept everyone physically safe by preventing cops in plain clothes from going into the crowd and arresting or beating people.
As a caveat, most demonstrations are however not riots, and in many places, cops are not a danger. They become dangerous in highly segregated places, where violence towards black and people of North African decent is more prevalent, in demonstrations that involve destruction of property, and in tense contexts in general. Arbitrary violence is still quite prevalent though, cops like to gratuitously hit demonstrators with batons or shoot them (often in the head) with rubber ball launchers. I am not brave, and do not want to be arrested since it is a requirement for becoming a civil servant, so I just stay far away from the cops.
The injured are taken care of by the usual emergency services, that can easily get around the most violent of riots, they are not targets, and are usually cheered. Things have not gotten so bad that these services become unable to operate for now. Street medics are also present in some demonstrations, to help with stuff such as tear gas inhalation and fix up minor wounds. Open
The movement has already accomplished a few things. Macron has shut his big mouth, and has the lowest popularity of any president this close to his election, people have for the most part realized that liberalism is shite, and the police has been exposed as a brutal mercenary force serving the interests in power.
I do not see and end in sight, or rather, this movement may die tomorrow, just as well as it may lead to unprecedented institutional changes. It is still quite early to tell. If there is and end to it, I would however be extremely worried by the advent of an authoritarian regime. The liberal project has stopped being supported by a majority of the population about 15 years ago, and I am concerned that liberals are seeing these protests as a sign of the impossibility of staying in power by alleged democratic means. The media has been drumming up stories of violent protesters out to get anyone, volontarily conflating property destruction with physical violence. We may lose our right to demonstrate after this, and maybe even most of our voting rights, since the desires of the unwashed masses are obviously incompatible with Reason™.
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Dec 16 '18
We can only hope that these liberals won't escalate and become more authoritarian, but history proves that they might. I heard about Macron's low popularity rate, and I'm glad. I didn't like him at all after hearing some of his policies from French comrades.
All in all, keep safe and I wish you (and the rest of the yellow vests) good luck!
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u/wilsonh915 Dec 17 '18
You're doing powerful and important work. I hope you're proud.
Have you noticed any fascist activity among the yellow vests? Obviously, fascists (like the cops) are opposing your actions but there have been rumors of fascists within the yellow vests group. Have you seen any evidence of this?
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 17 '18
The only explicit fash I've seen were three dudes with a flag with a Celtic cross on it, loudly complaining about leftists in a riot where we were all shouting anti-capitalist slogans. I'd say fascists, as militants are mostly absent, and a tiny minority. Some reactionaries are there, but they are mostly people with a weak political culture who follow a few far right figures who present themselves as non political.
I believe we must welcome these people, as they are not explicitly pushing a far right agenda, and face struggles common to the rest of us. I'm doing my best to understand their motivations, and try to push them leftward by starting from their perspective. The failure of liberalism have been more and more apparent in France, and people get it. You get some very confused people who will criticize migration policies and capitalism in the same sentence, and who I believe find the far right reassuring because it is anchored in familiar national values, but I still believe they can, for many of them (the non racist, non sexist right anti liberal right wingers) be pushed toward the radical left way more easily than most liberals.
This is by the way a strategy that has been employed by fascist movements in France for many years: hiding the reactionary part of their politics under a veneer of socially oriented measures, and a rethoric based around "giving the power back to the people". Small far right parties like UPR (Union Pour la République), or Le Pen's RN actively use what some antifascists call a "confusionist" strategy, trying to distance themselves from the far right, while having actual Nazis as high ranking members.
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Dec 16 '18
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 16 '18 edited Dec 17 '18
Are you apart of any of the revolutionary groups partaking in the movement?
No, I've been loosely involved in the movement (just taking part in the demonstrations on Saturday). I'm not part of any revolutionary movement, since all of the ones i now about in my area are a joke. Some underground autonomous movements are however taking part, but info is hard to get, since intelligence services infiltrate demonstrations and movements alike, making members hard to approach. It's not like you can walk up to someone and ask if they are part of an organizations, as these tend to be quite underground.
How do you feel about the Western Media portraying this?
I'm mostly aware of the french media. I however believe the media are quite lost, not being able to get a representative to talk to them and give the official party line. Also, the movement is very diverse, and it's very hard to get a good picture of it, so any account, mine included is going to be biased.
Do you expect an increase in militancy or a decrease?
I have no idea. The number of demonstrators has been decreasing from last week to yesterday, but it's still hard to tell. President macron has announced an increase in the minimum wage via public subsidies (instead of just raising the minimum wage, which is a joke), as well as making income from overtime tax free, which is also a joke, and will not help with the unemployment situation we have in France. Alla in all, everyone i have talked to was extremely dissatisfied, and do not consider what Macron gave nearly enough. Popular support remains high though (over 70%).
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Dec 16 '18
Philip Mirowski described the fundamental mistakes of the Occupy movement in his book Never Let a Serious Crisis Go to Waste:
The current problem of left political movements, whatever that benighted term might encompass nowadays, is that they have fallen into the trap where discussions of the crisis end up being hopelessly backward-looking: perhaps preaching "restoration" of proper "regulation," reenergizing mid-twentieth-century configurations of state power, or returning to a more "fair and equal" income distribution, or redeeming and making debtors whole through debt forgiveness, refurbishing an economy less beholden to and less composed of financialized corporate entities, resembling that which reigned during the immediate post-war period. Some have waxed openly nostalgic about the New Deal; others idealize the 1960s. Yet this ignores a basic truism learned by conservatives long ago: "To preserve the regime, the conservative must reconstruct the regime." The superior insight of the neoliberals, in particular, is that you can never go home again, largely because they have sought to build intentional irreversibilities into their previous political interventions...
Although it seems impolite to mention it, the collapse of "Occupy" movement over 2011-12 was largely due to the long-discredited notion that political action could be sustained and effective in the absence of any sort of theoretical guidance and hierarchical organization of short- to longer-term goals. The Tea Party had Ayn Rand; the closest thing to an Occupy inspiration seemed to be Jon Stewart. People seem to have forgotten that the initial Occupy Wall Street encampment on September 17, 2011, was sparked by a call from Adbusters, a "global network of culture jammers" based in Vancouver, built around a media collective and a glossy magazine. Its founder, Kalle Lasn, has asserted, "What we're trying to do is pioneer a new form of social activism using all the power of the mass media to sell ideas rather than products"...Besotted by the millenarian idea of starting anew, and lacking any sense of history of protest and political organization, both neoliberals and neoclassical economists rapidly addled whatever political curiosity and radical inclinations that the well-intentioned protesters might have had. Rebels rallied against corporate power, but apparently had no idea how it actually worked. The result was predictably utter failure...
While brave activists had proven willing to invent new forms of civil disobedience, much of their tweeting and blogging tended to reveal a reversion to themes already promulgated by the usual suspects covered in this volume...Mostly in the heat of Occupy, disputations over the crisis and financial sector were dominated by backward-looking ambitions and nostalgia for a happier and more prosperous time. Slogans like "We are the 99%" seemed to be calculated so as to be overly inclusive, confusing expansiveness with democracy, and therefore ineffectual...The Occupiers were disdainful of close ties to trade unions, only to witness their own dreams of a General Strike fizzle in May 2012. Obsessed with dangers of being hijacked by existing organized political entities that might be sympathetic to their energy and fervor, they eventually found themselves utterly abandoned instead...Heavily informed by libertarian, "anarchist," and neoliberal elements, the belief that nothing more than endless General Assembly discussion and finger-waggling would lead to sustained political success was brought up short by police raids, harassment through the legal system, organizational breakdown, and the fleeting fickle attentions of the media....They apparently held fast to their conviction that their primary role in life was to express themselves, especially with cameras nearby, rather than to work patiently for a thought-out political project...The trademark shout of "mike check" revealed their orientation pointed toward mimicry of media technologies as opposed to concerted political mobilization. The fascination with Twitter, Facebook, and other social media components of neoliberal technologies of the self revealed their lack of acquaintance with the ideas of their nominal opponents.
Indeed, I would suggest that palpable failure of the Occupy movement demonstrates the relevance of the thesis of chapter 3: the neoliberal worldview has become embedded in contemporary culture to such an extent that when well-meaning activists sought to call attention to the slow-motion train wreck of the world economic system, they came to their encampments with no solid conception of what they might need to know to make their indictments stick; nor did they have any clear perspective on what their opponents knew or believed about markets or politics, not to mention what the markets themselves knew about their attempts at resistance. With the generous assistance of economists, libertarians, and a raft of pundits, all their incipient neoliberal tendencies were amplified and encouraged, while their nascent attempts at political organization that might effectively challenge the [Neoliberal Thought Collective] were quashed.
...when people on the left are roused to action, the first qualm they must confront is that, at least in the contemporary world, most conventional notions of political protest themselves have been transformed and subverted by privatization and commercialization.
Basically Occupy was an eruption of long-simmering general discontent against capitalism, triggered by the mishandling of the recovery from the 2008 crisis by the Obama Administration and his failure to deliver on his campaign promises. They had no coherent theoretical conception of what they were protesting against or how to change it, and were generally more concerned with "making their voices heard" than building a real, organized political movement that could truly push back against the forces crushing down on working people.
This is a consistent problem with spontaneous, decentralized mass movements - their demands can vary wildly and be incoherent, leaders don't step forward and disciplined organizational hierarchical isn't built, and either existing economic and political organizations (ie the labor movement) refuse to build ties with the movement or the movement's lack of leadership or structure refuses to reach out to them.
These are similar headaches that I've glimpsed in the early stages of this Yellow Jacket movement. Since we don't get that much coverage of these protests here in the States I'm wondering what the links are between the protesters and unions and whether or not identifiable leadership is emerging and trying to organize something that can last beyond this bright-burning torch of popular anger.
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u/Andymack11 Dec 16 '18
From what we've seen in the media and obviously from what you've also told us, there doesn't really seem to be any kind of organised or central leadership in the movement. Obviously this is due to what you've said about the protests being a general outcry of dissatisfaction with the French government. Is there any chance of some sort of leadership emerging from the movement and where would that likely come from in your opinion?
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 16 '18 edited Dec 17 '18
I have no idea. People on the ground are strongly opposed to any possible representative who comes forwards, while some of them recognize the need for representation. My approach so far, that I have defended in the student protests I helped organise last year is to refuse negotiation. We have a set of demands, like rolling back Macron's tax breaks for the rich, decreasing car dependency, a minimum pension for the elderly, etc. I believe it would be much more useful to elaborate a common political program via open popular assemblies than designate representatives. If politicians want to know what we want, they just have to get on the street, yellow vests are not hard to find.
Coordination is another issue. In France, unions are however a cautionary tale of how grassroots movements devolve into useless bureaucracies, and most people are afraid of seeing their work seized by cynical interests, and are therefore extremely cautions of central coordination. The result is that, at the moment coordination is mostly absent. This has a tactical advantage though, as a lady I talked to said to me yesterday : "when you see us, it's too late". Not having any central organisation to decide actions means blockaded are done in a guerilla-like fashion, with the added benefit of communication via social media.
I don't know if any leadership is going to emerge, we're in uncharted waters with this movement.
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u/1Desk Norman Bethune flair when? Dec 17 '18
Mon français n'est pas bien, mais solidarité depuis Canada!
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Dec 17 '18
How went your confrontations with pigs ? Have you been hurt ?
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 17 '18 edited Dec 17 '18
I kept away from cops, and the black block did a pretty good job of keeping everyone safe. I wasn't hurt in anyway exempt from my chest hurting for a few days following tear gas inhalation.
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 17 '18
I'm at work at the moment, so I will not be able to answer your questions for the next ~7 hours. But please keep them going, and I'll do my best to respond tonight.
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Dec 18 '18
What do you think of the perspective of the "apellists"/the Coming Insurrection? Are they right in how they view the development in France and the world? It seems as if they were right to a great extent with looking at what occured with the yellow vests.
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 18 '18
They do have some points, and the outline of their startegy is pretty relevent. But I doubt the movement falls neatly in any category, although insurectionnal anarchists have provided IMHO the justest analysis of the uprising, and the best framework of the current reaction of power. I really resent the fact so many Yellow Vests lack this interpretative framework.
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Dec 18 '18
Yeah, I have a hard time with some of their way of thinking but they appear to have the best perspective in this struggle. Of course, they're also some of the few French groups to travel a lot and to write in English, so perhaps they're a bit exaggerated in importance here.
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Dec 19 '18
Institutions (Unions, political parties, local governments) are widely rejected by the Yellow vests
Why are they rejecting institutions out of pocket instead of advocating for them to be organized differently? Are they anarchists or something?
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 19 '18
Institutions have done a terrible work of protecting people from exploitation and injustice. Neolibs have been in power for almost 40 years now, and they have done an amazing job at sowing division and distrust. Strikes are now viewed as something from the past, and so are unions (they not come forward with a positive demand in my lifetime). Political parties are seen as corrupt and out of touch (the working class in not represented at all in the parliament), and the government is seen as a machine to fuck the little people over.
As for them being anarchists, well... It looks like they are getting there. Yellow vests absolutely reject any representation and negotiation. They are in no way anarchist in the way us radicals may be (if one out of ten YV was an anarchist, we would now be stateless), but they have the anarchist reflex. To them, the old union mantra of general strike and common struggle is old and impotent, and they are trying out a more direct form of action.
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Dec 19 '18
If institutions aren't working for the people then why doesn't anyone advocate for them to be organized differently? How does it make any sense to reject organization entirely?
Yellow vests absolutely reject any representation and negotiation.
The fuck? Why? Do people in France even understand their own history? Of the Paris Commune? If they did then why would they reject representation entirely when they've already created a model that can actually be made to work for the people?
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u/EcoSoco Libertarian Socialism | Ecosocialism Dec 16 '18
How are you guys organizing at the grassroots level to maintain momentum and commitment? Do you believe that there has to be some sort of official leadership soon to have some sort of direction and official goal?
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 16 '18
I am not the most active element. I just go and demonstrate every Saturday, and follow my local group on Facebook. Facebook has been the platform of choice where the yellow Vests have been organizing. they use polls and event to coordinate actions, and they also hold open meetings during the week to decide on the actions they want to take. At the local level, there is a core of the most active militant, how seem to take most of the initiative, but anyone who tries and assume a role of leader does not stay with the group for very long.
I don't know if we're getting any leadership. the movement is ideologically diverse, and some of he emerging figures have proven to be not up to the task. So this remains to be seen. Personally, i think popular assemblies are the best hope, ans this is connected to the way unions have been failing to work in France for the last 40 years.
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u/BizarroJordan Dec 16 '18
Do you think a movement like this could happen in the US? If so, what’s necessary to make it happen? If not, what obstacles are in the way?
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 16 '18
I don't know the situation on the ground in the US well enough to answer.
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Dec 16 '18
This is probably a question you're tired of hearing, but would you say that the majority of participants are of the left or the right? I know that both Melenchon and Le Pen failed to take over the movement, but would you say that there are more socialists among the protesters, or more right-wingers?
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 16 '18
Most people I interacted with (over 70%) I would classify as left wing. And most reactionaries I encountered in the movement are IMHO philosophically left wing, but don't want to attach themselves to the left by internalized fear of social stigma. I have however encountered a climate change denier, some antivaxxers, and a few people expressing anti-migration sentiments. The consensus of the movement, as it transpires through the demands participants agree to is strongly left-wing.
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Dec 16 '18
Ah, thanks. I was curious because a lot of right-wingers have been trying to claim the movement as their own, and I just wanted to confirm that there was no real basis for that.
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u/stretchmarx20 Dec 17 '18
This poll shows Le Pen way more popular than Melenchamp. Wouldn’t that suggest that these riots are probably made up of more right wingers?
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Dec 17 '18
Not necessarily; the protesters may not be demographically identical to the French voting base as a whole (or at least those who were polled for that statistic). Plus, according to that article, Melenchon didn't slip for political policy reasons; he slipped after he was mocked because of a video of him shouting at police officers during a raid. The French people could still prefer his policies overall.
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u/ramadadcc Dec 17 '18
Do you believe in the idea of the global government entities such as the European union or are these marches in rejection of their polices?
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 17 '18
Personally, I think the EU could work in principle, but it has been implemented a tool of pushing liberalism to countries against their will, and as such is massively rejected by the population. If we were to vote on a Frexit, I believe it would come close. Marches and occupations and road blocks (its not only the demonstrations on Saturdays) are in opposition to the current government's policies though, but the sentiment is way more anti EU than pro EU.
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u/Kjellvb1979 Dec 17 '18
Do you think this could turn into a violent overthrow of government? I'm curious at the potential of a French revolution 2.0?
Note I'm just starting to look into this and haven't read up much on this topic. Excuse me if my question is uninformed please.
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 17 '18
I doubt it, they have the weapons, we don't, and they will try and retain power to the bitter end. We would need our numbers to grow considerably to get to this, and most participants want a better government, but do not feel capable of seizing power in my experience.
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u/Kjellvb1979 Dec 17 '18
Interesting, like i said I'm not very informed in the issue, and need in the States haven't focused too much on this movement.
Here I'm surprised we don't see a movement here like this... Wages should be much much hiilgher, a small percent horde the wealth white lobbying to keep it that way, and most people stay in the class they are born into or fall a rung or two. You'd think people would be out in mass demanding a fairer mute equal society,but nope. When my health was better I did participate in protest and the likes, nite I'm just trying to survive (maybe that keeps everyone else at home too, the surviving not health issues). Occupy was nice, I was there and supported it, but I expected more after and it didn't coalesce fully as I expected. The media want very kind to that protest and portrayed everyone there as lazy loafer college kids.
So what exactly is it the government is doing, or did, that caused this from your view point? And how is the media treating this there (are they reporting correctly, for, against, neutral)?
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 17 '18
The government has been despicable in its communication and actions. Macron going around cutting taxes for the rich, and explained to an overworked nurse at a public hospital that "money does not grow on trees". Everyone hates him, and the hatred of all liberal policies has cristalized around him since he took on the role of a monarch.
I do not know about American media, I have been focused on French affairs this past month. I believe the US has a much more developed culture of "put up and shut up", and the poor in the US tend to put the responsibility on themselves more than on the system, but I haven't lived in the US and had any experience with the working class there, so I doubt I have anything close to the full picture.
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u/Kjellvb1979 Dec 18 '18 edited Dec 18 '18
You got it pretty right there on the sedated worker, putting up and shutting up is an American past time in the workplace here...well mostly, I guess that's why I don't fair well in the job market, that and being disabled.
But yeah sadly most people seem oblivious to how the wealthy folk tend to treat us "reserve army of labor" as fairly replaceable proletariat pawns...but I've not met so many that see or share my view on that. Of course I'm in a fairly wealthy area of my state and not too many have gone without except in certain "bad areas" (those who grew up wealthy and stayed so refer to poorer areas that way at least).
Sad how even great distances seem not to effect the natural tendency of the wealthy to abuse the lower classes while working to control and influence the powers of government (and it's officials). Almost like that has no borders, aye?
P.S. Thanks for the responses, it's too bad our species can't evolve beyond these foolish class systems...sorry this struggle still goes on in "developed" countries...sorry I've over used the quotation marks. Keep up the good fight friend!
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Dec 17 '18
Have you had or seen any luck in radicalizing former liberals into socialism?
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 17 '18
I managed to radicalize a few fellow students back in university, and to get some students on board with the local students unions in last year's unrests.
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u/6thNephilim Dec 17 '18
Is it true that the protests are dominated by right wingers and the left is a minute faction among liberals and fash?
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 17 '18
No, liberals are a minority. Most participants are either not politically aligned, leftists or far-right voters who have been coned into thinking the fash have their interests at heart. Last week in Paris, slogans were however mostly anti-capitalist, and skewing very left wing in Nice, although there were some signs with far-right sounding slogans on them (a minority though). It is not true to say it is a fully left wing movement, buy it is certainly not far right either. The conservatives have also completely given up on trying to recuperate the movement, that they first saw as a sort of Tea Party à la française.
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Dec 16 '18
How is it that Unions are the problem when they have strengthened the laboring class? I can accept that there are bad elements, but struggle to understand how the wealthy have any working persons best interest in mind.
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u/ChairmanBen Dec 16 '18
What policy would you like to see enacted, at least in the short term? I know that you’re an anarchist, but that is more long term
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 16 '18
More frequent referendums triggered by the demand of a set number of citizens would go a long way towards giving power to the people in a significant way. That's the yellow vest policy I believe is the most relevant right now. Personally, I would love to see many more policies enacted, but it's not directly connected with the movement.
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u/ChairmanBen Dec 16 '18
Also, how do you feel about the fact that you are protesting alongside Marine le Pen supporters?
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 16 '18 edited Dec 16 '18
They are rare and far between. The presence of fascists is definitely an issue, but at the same time, it is an opportunity to have a chat with them and try to get at their motivations. I'm however reassured by the demands, they are not fascist, and I don't think we'll gain anything by abandoning the movement to the right wing. So far, we have managed to outnumber the reactionaries and to shift an anti-tax movement towards a pro fiscal and social justice direction, and I hope we will continue to do so. Anectotally, some of the most motivated elements I met are former union members, and they are very left-wing.
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u/stretchmarx20 Dec 17 '18
Currently polls show The far right in France officially more popular than Macron and even shows the far left slipping. I’m a leftist who wants to believe these protests are leftist in nature but these poll suggest the opposite. What’s your take on this?
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 17 '18
The far right has been very silent during the protests. I've seen a few right wing slogans, and some veiled antisemitism in my area, which is one of the most reactionary cities in France, but slogans and sentiments were mostly left wing.
I do not know how this will shake out during the elections, but it is in my opinion not very relevant. What counts for me is that we're able to build something on the ground. European institutions are an antidemocratic, technocratic nightmare, and this is not going to change one bit whomever we send to the European parliament.
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u/PeacefulComrade Dec 17 '18
What is your position on the property on the means of production and organization of the government?
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 17 '18
I am in favour of personnel property, but opposed to lucrative property. I'm all for seizing the means of production and giving workers own and managed cooperative ensuring the production of goods and services.
As for government, I believe its fairest form would be formed of local popular assemblies, with possibly a direct democracy or a free federation managing affairs at a bigger scale.
But that's all pretty pie in the sky, and I doubt I'll see it during my lifetime, so right now, I try and focus on concrete incremental gains.
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u/Solidarity365 Dec 17 '18
What ratio of protestors would you say are right wing and left wing, politically?
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 17 '18
About ~70-80% left wing in my experience, but it may vary from place to place (I live in an exceptionally reactionary area), and most protesters refuse to classify themselves on a left/right axis. I would however say that the demands are overly left wing.
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u/PeacefulComrade Dec 22 '18
if you're still there, what's been up with the movement this week?) I guess there needs to be a topic or a subreddit directed to the whole Yellow Vest movement across the world to get the latest news asap
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u/DrOrbit Dec 23 '18
Long live heroic struggle of french people. But what is that people wish to attain at the end from this movement, I mean what do you think when will it end? Personally I think it should continue, no matter which form it takes, surely it would be enough to promote a new never ending culture of resistance and activism.
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Dec 16 '18 edited Dec 16 '18
The movement is politically diverse and confused. Right now, the more consensual demands are that of more money for the poorer, and more democracy via the instauration of a referendum regime, but is still very unfocused at the moment.
It'd be interesting to see the responses if you were to post this in other political subs. It seems like there are posts that see some value in the movement in just about every political sub I follow. From /r/The_Donald to /r/SandersForPresident, and everything in between.
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 17 '18
Serious question: is /r/sandersforpresident the most left wing sub you follow. 'Cause I have news for ya then...
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Dec 16 '18
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/death-and-gravity Dec 16 '18 edited Dec 17 '18
Please stop pushing your magic internet beans, we don't need them.
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u/[deleted] Dec 16 '18
thank you for taking the time to do this!
I’ve heard there are many conflicting groups within the movement (e.g. while many are leftist, some are conservative and some are just opportunists), could you verify this and elaborate on it a bit?