r/solarpunk • u/[deleted] • 1d ago
Action / DIY / Activism "Solarpunk No. 1" [UK Solarpunk activism poster]
[removed]
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u/Lawrencelot 1d ago
The vibe is okay, but since you posted here you probably expect some feedback. Why is there a car there? And where are the bikes/public transport? Also the buildings on the side remind me of generic capitalistic shops you'd find in any shopping street or shopping mall in the world, where are the local shops? The sharing of goods and services? Edible plants instead of just trees and grass?
It just doesn't feel alive to me, it feels like capitalism with a bit more green.
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u/pookage Programmer 1d ago
...nondescript doesn't just mean that you need to describe the images you post? This is just a low-effort generated vibes-post that doesn't add anything at all, and is barely solarpunk at all beyond the presence of trees; the city space is even still built for cars, with one apparently driving down some tram-tracks?!
Using AI-generated images to promote a green society is like celebrating growing biodiversity in the rhino population by inviting everyone on a hunt.
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u/Iacoma1973 1d ago
You are incorrect. This is exactly what a "descript AI post" is. A descript AI post includes description of the prompt used to achieve the post, the meaning behind AI use, and context surrounding the greater meaning.
We're a small university society, and we are not for profit; do you think creating all of these materials when we do not have any artists and do not have the money to hire one would even be possible without machine learning models?
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u/pookage Programmer 1d ago
Honestly, if your society can only operate on the back of an ecologically destructive and socially oppressive system, then I would reconsider whether or not you are the right folks to be leading it.
Your actions do not exist within a vacuum, and I would seriously reconsider your approach here, or, failing that, reconsider what you call your belief system - because greenwashed and exploitative capitalism ain't solarpunk.
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u/Iacoma1973 1d ago edited 1d ago
You are making misinformed discussion; if you would navigate to our profile, read our manifesto, our values, our policies - you would know that we are not for greenwashed and exploitative capitalism - we literally want to enact policies to protect workers rights.
We reject the straw man argument that you're trying to plaster onto us right now. We don't operate on the back of an "ecologically destructive system" whatever on earth that's supposed to mean...
We are a society of university students - a university which pioneers renewable materials, at that;
Our materials are found on a simple FileShare, and are free for anyone. We aren't selling anything for money...
We use AI, but you are misinformed and misled by the news about AI. You are angry (rightfully so) about the upper range outliers of RED era AI that the news likes to focus on because anger is publicity. But the mean energy usage for ML models is far lower than the upper range outliers, and the most efficient models use about the same training energy as boiling water for 20 cups of tea.
You're also confused about the difference between training energy and operational energy. One is larger than the other, and they're not the same.
Also, the increase in energy of ML models in recent years is explained by lack of historical development.
Also, the efficiency of computations (J/Flop) is decreasing in recent years, which means ML models are becoming more energy efficient with time.
Here is a complete scientific article;https://arxiv.org/html/2403.08151v1
note that their graphs are in a logarithmic scale, which means the mean is nearly 10,000x less energy intensive, and the lower range for the most efficient models we can create currently is nearly 200,000,000x less energy intensive. and this is training data. Operational energy costs are usually only as bad as any other software you want to run on a high end computer.
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u/pookage Programmer 1d ago
If you're unclear as to how using a product built from stolen labour being used to disempower that same labour might be engaging in exploitative capitalism, then, again, you might want to stop and consider the political nature of your actions here beyond its immediate aesthetics.
The arguments you're using are the same that were used for crypto - use that as your frame of reference, if it helps; the fact that models are getting more efficient over time does not detract from the reality of the scale of their consumption, nor the fact that the negative externalities are bourn by the public - we're seeing private profit at the expense of the public good - and, again, all in service of an exploitative product that is fundamentally flawed!
I've been to uni, I know how much of a bubble it can be, and how particularly vulnerable UK unis are to buying into the hype of anything new (both due to sources of research funding and as a "draw" to attract students), but all I'm asking is that you try to be aware of it - be cogniscent of the harm you're participating in, and look beyond the technojoy to the wider sociopolitical ramifications of your interests.
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u/FenrirAmoon 1d ago
O, wouldn't it be nice if we wouldn't sacrifice a third of the space for a single car and stopped using AI "art" which is inherently against the values of the solarpunk movement. And for gods sake can we stop acting like solarpunk is just some more green and more trees in the city. We strive for actual revolution and a complete turnaround in economy and how we live together.
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u/Iacoma1973 1d ago edited 1d ago
If you go read our manifesto, you would know this is exactly what our society advocates: a complete environmental turnaround of the economy...
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u/Guitarman0512 1d ago
Which is why you are using something which requires insane amounts of water and electricity to create advertisements. Got it. Whatever you're trying to do, if you go about it this way it's dead in the water already.
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u/Iacoma1973 1d ago edited 1d ago
Actually, you are misled by news... The news likes to drum up outrage over the most outlier ML models. In reality however these REDAI era models are just the upper range outliers. And not representative of the mean or even the most efficient ML models we could be creating.
On top of this, a lack of ML models is observed historically, which explains why energy usage has increased in recent times. Also, the efficiency of computations (J/flop) has also been increasing in recent times, which means ML models are becoming more power-effiecient.
You are also confusing training energy with operational energy; one is larger than the other, and they're not the same.
Here is a complete scientific article: https://arxiv.org/html/2403.08151v1
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u/Guitarman0512 1d ago
You do realise in one way or another we're still talking about an increase in energy consumption? None to some is still some.
Besides, other studies suggest that for example, implementing AI in search engines could double their electricity consumption.
Have you heard of the Jevons paradox? This is also another effect that will dramatically affect energy consumption when it comes to AI, and you are a perfect example of why.
We have not even discussed AI's water consumption, which is arguably more significant than its energy consumption.
Besides, can you explain the gas powered SUV right smack dab in the middle of your poster?
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u/Iacoma1973 1d ago
Yes. Under our policies, which you can find in our manifesto, that SUV would be electric or a hybrid, running off of biofuel or green hydrogen and renewable electricity. You can find this by navigating to our profile.
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u/GrapeTasteWizard Artist ✨ 1d ago
This is not the solution. Less car is the solution. Also, your AI "art" is not good. I don't know why you AI "Artists" insist on spawning these insignificant, mediocre images as if they were something. It's just litter. Draw it yourself, it may be not "AI perfect", but at least it would mean something. The image posted screams greenwashing, they're just not good.
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u/Guitarman0512 1d ago
You do realise that SUVs are anti-pedestrian by nature, more damaging to infrastructure due to their weight, less efficient due to their generally worse drag coefficient, and that cars in a city do not make sense anyway? In your own manifesto you mention that some cities should ban cars altogether. How is any of this solarpunk?
I wish I had a GIF keyboard on desktop, the "Think Mark, think!" meme would be very appropriate right now.
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u/OshaViolated 1d ago
Cool. Whatever.
Still amoral to use AI when they were created by stealing users art just so you can save some money
Pay. Artists.
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u/Iacoma1973 1d ago
We agree, and in our manifesto we outline laws that could be enacted to ensure companies must obtain copyright permissions from an artist in order to use their materials.
That means getting AI companies to pay artists to use their work, or using materials in the free domain.
It's not our fault as the consumer, that AI companies are avoiding responsibility to make their products, anymore than it's a supermarket shopper's fault that their supermarket stocks beef that's not environmentally friendly... You still need to eat. You would have us not use AI at all - but we cannot afford to pay an artist? AI plays an important role in technology and expanding services to lower income people that previously were only available to the middle class with an abundance of disposable income.
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u/OshaViolated 1d ago
Do YOU have hands ? If so, YOU can create art based off of your plans. It might not be as good, but it would be yours and people would take your project seriously because it would show you had more to offer than a prompt for something else to do the leg work for you.
And you using an optional tool because you can't afford an artist DOESN'T entitle you to their work. Someone else's art is not a necessity like food from the grocery store
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u/Iacoma1973 1d ago
A political activist movement needs medium quality materials or better, so making art by hand (if you've no artistic skill) isn't an option, because that would be low quality and would be a detriment to our movement if we tried to use them as something of professional quality. Furthermore, in the absence of disposable income, free-use AI really is the only option. You do realise that your approach of saying "Just do it yourself" or "just commission an artist" is a slap in the face to lower income people, people who are worked so hard they have minimal free time, and people who do not have artistic skills? If someone has a dream of a solarpunk future, but lacks the means to envision it, who are you to say they should not have access to tools that help them to see their dream?
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u/OshaViolated 1d ago
What are you on about ? Political activists CONSTANTLY make handmade stuff that's not high quality BECAUSE they're activists. It shows you care when you do your best to make something even if it's not good.
You CANNOT be pro people if you're ACTIVELY working against their rights and acting like a martyr for it
Also, I grew up poor. So miss me with that " slap in the face for poor people " stuff. Just because you can't afford it doesn't mean you deserve it for free. Just because you cannot afford another artists time and skill doesn't mean you get a get out of jail free card for mooching off of artists stolen content
Creating a new future is a group effort, and odds are AT LEAST one person can spend $3 on some paper and crayons from the dollar store.
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u/LunarGiantNeil 1d ago
They're lazy as hell, this feels like an ad for this AI model.
Part of my job recently was contacting illustrators for a very serious publication and you can find people who do great stuff for pennies, especially if you're a nonprofit group.
If spending 200 bucks for some drawings is too expensive for your organization then you're not being serious. They've already damaged their brand here by using AI slop.
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u/Spready_Unsettling 1d ago
Buddy, the only detriment to your "movement" is you. I legitimately can't tell if you're trolling or having a mental episode, but you're certainly not changing hearts or minds here.
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u/Iacoma1973 1d ago
It would certainly seem that people here are being extremely hostile nitpicking the use of AI rather than looking at the bigger picture. Solarpunkism is not ludditism. It's mind-boggling that the people in this subreddit are trying gatekeep solarpunk over the use of AI :/ but then looking at the history of posts on this subreddit it seems other posters had the same problems.
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u/GrapeTasteWizard Artist ✨ 1d ago
No, this is not it. You decide to use these tool for something that is not essential, do not try to shift blame. Companies are to blame, but so it's you, you're not a victim in this. As already pointed out, you can draw it yourself, if you can't hire an artist. The image posted, and your answers here, show you're not serious. Solarpunk is not just trees on a skyscraper, it's also an aims to a more just society. This is the opposite.
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u/hissy-elliott 1d ago edited 2h ago
If you're a university, surely there are some student artists you can tap. When I was editor in chief of my college paper, that's what I did. We got great stuff and they got portfolio pieces.
I don't get what this is a picture of other than a picture of a street with some buildings and plants.
The only profound thing this has over a piece of clipart is its environmental destruction and use of stolen work. Next time, use clip art.
Edit: Here's a good example of concept art for urban spaces.
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u/GrapeTasteWizard Artist ✨ 1d ago
Sorry, where is your manifesto, I went to your profile, but I can only find a link to the homepage of GoFile.io
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u/Iacoma1973 1d ago
Apologies, it is the link beneath the description, not in the description, here: https://gofile.io/d/hw9c7G
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u/ranganomotr 1d ago
Nothing screams solarpunk activism like using 20l of water to create a shitty poster that does not make sense when you look at it
fuck off
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u/Iacoma1973 1d ago
Actually, this is a common misconception regarding AI. The news often drums up the problems surrounding the largest models that require incredible amounts of energy (and water) to train. These are known as RED AI as they are from the modern era and differ from historical BLUE AI models. However, these models are upper ranges and outliers. The median REDAI era model, and even the lower range smaller models can take significantly less water to train.
Also, as a scientist, you're not understanding the difference between training and operation: training energy and operational energy are two completely different things. Using this service would have used operational energy rather than training energy because the model was already trained by the service.
Here is a full scientific article on energy usage by machine learning models: https://arxiv.org/html/2403.08151v1
As you can see from their graph, the efficiency of computation (J/Flops) is actually going down in time, and the high energy usage of models is explained by the lack of any sort of ML models historically.
We are extremely concerned by how hostile you are being to us when we just want to help Solarpunk and the environment. We'll remind you to be careful as the subreddit rules say to be kind and respectful of everyone
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u/Few_Egg_4604 1d ago
It is not very solarpunk of you to generate an AI image using a “service” that actively destroys our environment and is an offense to creative individualism.
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u/Agalpa 1d ago
Ai consumes unbearable amount of water for cooling servers and energy for training it's models, it is utterly failing at everything but hyper specific tasks and will probably stop being funded by next decade, if you desire to use such tools why do you even pretend to go on a ecologically active subreddit, I know solarpunk has never been much more than an aestetic but still people here at least try to care for the world we live in
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u/caseyjones10288 1d ago
Im a simple man. I see a car and I hate it.
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u/Iacoma1973 1d ago
Fortunately under our policies that car would be electric or a hybrid that runs on green hydrogen~
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u/caseyjones10288 1d ago
And theyd still build cities entirely around allowing for them to exist and our world would still be a fucking parking lot.
"Our policies" 🙄
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u/Iacoma1973 1d ago
Well yes. Our policies. If you navigate to our profile you'll find a link to our manifesto (and other materials related to our group), which outlines policies in greater detail, including a breakdown of funding. We want to raise awareness so that political pressure can be put on the labour party in the UK to be more green. But we're also for promoting the green party in the UK.
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u/JacobCoffinWrites 1d ago
It sounds like information about this group, (your policies and manifesto, the actions you've taken so far, contact info etc) might be a better introduction to the community here. This seems like more of an art post which got a lot of art criticism.
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u/Iacoma1973 1d ago
Trust me,we've tried so hard all over Reddit to do exactly that, but it's such a hostile platform to political promotion or activism :/ you try and do that, you're likely to get permabanned with no warning
this subreddit and the people on it? Looking a gift horse in the mouth because of one specific thing they disagree with? Being criticised and excluded, banned, by our own people, by the very people who we're trying to help? It's nothing new unfortunately 😞
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u/LunarGiantNeil 1d ago
Some gift horses have Greek Soldiers inside them. If you can't see why what you're doing is making people mad then we're not your people.
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u/JacobCoffinWrites 1d ago
So this isn't the first time an activist's message has failed to reach it's intended audience (or in this case, other activists in the same movement). The best next step is to take some time to cool off, and then assess what went wrong. Luckily people are giving you pretty solid (if blunt) feedback. In a way, this is good practice because you're just talking to people already sold on solarpunk rather than the people in public you'll be trying to convince.
Lots of orgs and activists have moments like this. A lot of young progressive types tend to decide the communities they're trying/failing to reach aren't deserving of their help and move on to other pursuits. Others stop and reassess, adjust their language and tactics and try again.
Even big agencies have system for this stuff. A friend who used to work for the EPA once sent me their guidance on writing when warning the American public about contaminants in soil, groundwater etc, and it had a lot of rules about using short words, simple language, basically writing at like a 3rd grade level. You can be certain that came from bad experiences.
In this case people are telling you that your methods are part of your message. In fact, in this case, your methods are a barrier preventing you from conveying your message. AI is a deal breaker for them for a variety of reasons. You can ignore them or tell them they're wrong but all the time you spend doing that isn't progressing your actual goals.
I'd really recommend reassessing whether not using AI is a deal breaker for you - is your goal to promote solarpunk progress or this AI service? If it's the solarpunk part, I'd focus on presenting your organization, your goals, and your accomplishments. This is a community of activists, so that's much more likely to get results.
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u/Iacoma1973 1d ago
Solarpunk is supposed to be technology and the environment working in harmony. To not use AI would be ludditism, and ludditism is not solarpunk. So yeah, it's a deal-breaker for us... We can't just not use technology to fix the environment and be more efficient in our productivity simply because people have misconceptions and can't afford to have informed and unbiased opinions about it...
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u/JacobCoffinWrites 1d ago
I don't think all technology is inherently forward progress or that there's any obligation to use a technology just because it exists.
It's also worth noting that the actual Luddites weren't simple anti-technology reactionaries. The machines they smashed weren't new, having been invented approx 200 years earlier, and their smashing them was a tactic, no different than modern monkeywrenching, used by organized labor against wealthy industrialists through the ages.
Per https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/what-the-luddites-really-fought-against-264412/ :
"But the Luddites themselves “were totally fine with machines,” says Kevin Binfield, editor of the 2004 collection Writings of the Luddites. They confined their attacks to manufacturers who used machines in what they called “a fraudulent and deceitful manner” to get around standard labor practices. “They just wanted machines that made high-quality goods,” says Binfield, “and they wanted these machines to be run by workers who had gone through an apprenticeship and got paid decent wages. Those were their only concerns.”
To me, those complaints and goals sound quite similar to much of the anti AI feedback you've received. People aren't against generative AI because it's technology or because it's new. They don't like the cost to the environment and those of us who live in it, or the exploitation of workers. And for myself and a handful of others, because it *doesn't* produce high quality goods. It produces reproductions of the status quo that look weirder the closer you look at them. The status quo is inherent in their design, in their datasets and the reproduction-oriented methods used to train them. there simply isn't enough art of practical, optimistic futures out there to train them with so even when you try to use them for solarpunk purposes they slip in modern day defaults like cars and suburbs. It's kind of insidious. Even good promptcrafting lacks the granularity or control necessary to really, intentionally shape a scene that shows solarpunk systems and values in practice.
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u/Maximum-Objective-39 1d ago
The trees on buildings annoy me, as always, but I appreciate the sentiment.
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u/Iacoma1973 1d ago
A fair point UwU speaking as a student of material science, the Bosco verticale experiences several problems regarding the use of trees on buildings. Namely the upkeep cost and material challenges regarding water and the degradation due to plant growth. However also speaking as a Material scientist I believe it's possible to innovate new construction materials and for architects to derive solutions for those challenges.
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u/Maximum-Objective-39 1d ago edited 1d ago
The question is always this - "Why do you want to?"
Even with possible solutions, the question should be, is this a problem worth solving in this way?
It's not just a matter of fixing the structural problems. Covering buildings with plants introduces a lot of complications in regards to tending them. Pest control. Etc.
Obviously, green spaces and plants in our environment are GOOD. But it's a lot more straight forward to achieve that with, like, rooftop gardens/green houses, appropriate green spaces surrounding buildings, etc.
All of those, after all, also need tending. But can be tended much more easily.
Building sides and balconies can have some appropriately sized planter boxes.
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u/UnusualParadise 1d ago
Google "balconies with plants in Spain" if you want to see what houses with greenery.
Spanish architecture mandates lots of balconies, which are then perused to put small gardens. It has created a distinctive style.
I think that's the highest possible quantity of greenery you can on the sides of a building without having to resort to pest control. And even then things like beehives can become a problem, since they latch into unused houses and, altho a lovely sight, can become a problem sometimes. Mosquitoes also become a problem.
Maybe add some rooftop garden if you're not putting solar panels. Many spaniards already do. And that's all.
Solarpunk architecture might go more in the direction of better materials, local energy generation, infrastructure for better temperature control without using energy. and passive adaptations to different climates. That's where the hard problems are and where creativity should go unleashed.
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u/JacobCoffinWrites 1d ago
So from a worldbuilding standpoint what's all the road space used for? Is there normally a lot of car traffic and this is just a quiet time of day? Is the car driving in a lane normally reserved for busses or trams?
In real life when streets are pedestrianized they often reclaim that wide expanse of pavement more permanently - with new gardens, separated bike lanes, and other public third space type uses. It might still need to be drivable for emergency vehicles but there are a lot of options beyond a huge swaths of city land where nobody's allowed to walk (as shown by the crowds still sticking to the sidewalks).
I'm sympathetic to your limitations with regards to artistic ability/money (it's why all my solarpunk art is photobashes made by cutting up photographs and screenshots of 3d models) but my main problem with AI art is the lack of intentionality.
Imagining a better future takes a careful consideration and examination of how we do things, knowledge of alternative ways of doing things, and an evaluation of whether those ways will work here. AI is trained on reproducing stuff that already exists, and it's fed on the status quo. I don't think you can put in decades of car commercials and get a radical reimagining of the infrastructure of society back out. And we kinda see that here. This is basically a modern, car-centric city street (sort of repainted with temporary bike lanes) with some trees on the buildings in the background. It doesn't really propose any changes.
In art or writing, I don't think it can do your imagining for you.
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u/Scared_Lobster_1913 1d ago
So happy to see this post get railed for it's use of AI - something I've seen be oft introduced lately in this community and shrugged off with 'but our manifesto'. A certain discord advertised here unfortunately had the same concerns under the guise of 'pragmatism'.
Gross. Do better.
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u/captain-ignotus Environmentalist 1d ago
This is not the future many of us dream of...
Where is the community space? The public transport and bikes? Where is the decentering of roads and cars, the commons, the biodiversity? This just looks like a normal high street - just with bushes everywhere. Maybe look up urban planning concepts such as the 15-minute city or walkable cities. I'm a fan of green rooftops, but they're not the only dream you can have for urban spaces.
Also, why not commission artists to imagine the future instead of AI? I know for a fact that there are plenty out there who would love to work on such a project.
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u/Rediturus_fuisse 1d ago
If you didn't use AI to "make" this, would you still have put the car and road with no bike or public transport infrastructure in there?
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u/AltAccMia 1d ago
the problem with AI is that it only repeats what it knows. It knows cars, people being pushed to sidewalks, corpo buildings, etc. You cannot generate new Ideas with AI, it is inherently regressive
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u/PelicanDesAlpes 1d ago
Man comes to a solarpunk sub and posts an AI picture of a normal city, with just more trees
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u/NeedleworkerMany6043 20h ago
In a solarpunk society the city-plants would probably be plants that produce food for the people to eat, nectar for insects, or useful materials such as hemp fiber.
In this image however it seems as if its just the usual plants used in capitalist cities: random green plants with little diversity and little benefit for nature or the citizens
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u/Spready_Unsettling 18h ago
AI doesn't understand anything even slightly resembling permaculture, so neither does OP.
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u/LaronX 1d ago
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u/Iacoma1973 1d ago
I like Ghibli movies :/ but moreover, why the hate? How is it helpful to anybody? I am not a "pig", I just want to help solarpunk activism in the UK. Hell, if we're talking about pigs, my society wants to rollback anti-protest laws in the UK and put restrictions on the police's use of anti-crowd control devices in the UK. Please remember the subreddits rules on being kind and accepting of many different interpretations of solarpunk.
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u/LaronX 1d ago
Because generative AI is the quintessential opposite of solar punk. Meaning well doesn't make something good. Using tolls of injustice and marginalisation in the hope of pushing justice never works. It empowers and legitimizes the abuse AI is. You mean well, but you have to come to terms that you stole from artists and helped normalise something so freaking abusive it stands in absolute Opposition of your wishes. I get you being defensive, but like being fashist the Credo goes we don't use the weapon of the enemy, otherwise we become like them.
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u/pookage Programmer 1d ago edited 1d ago
Not relevant to the main thread, but just a Ghibli point-of-order: they're not calling you a pig - in this scenario the pig in question is the good guy; it's a reference to Porco Rosso, and it sounds like you may have missed the key point from the movie - could be worth a rewatch, because it's a good'un and never been more relevant!
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u/54R45VV471 1d ago
Wouldn't it be nice if people stopped destroying the environment to use AI to steal labour from real artists?
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u/Remarkable_Thing6643 21h ago
Why do people think Solarpunk is just planting some shit in a high rise? Seriously lazy. Using AI is the opposite of Solarpunk. 💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩
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u/cromlyngames 20h ago
I think you've been kicked around enough. don't try and be clever with 'descript' next time. It's not a word. The nondescript rule on generative art/text here is for thingslike comic backgrounds, to seed a fully anotated diagram. Adding a title and qr code isn't it
You are welcome to post your actual logo and manifesto here. It would better in fact. That is actually OC. Most of the sub is American though, so engagement might not be high either way.
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u/sparminiro 1d ago
I do think it would be nice to be the only car in the road
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u/Iacoma1973 1d ago
Thankyou TwT for saying something nice.
The reception here has been not what we expected at all considering the subreddit rules and the solarpunk movement. We are honestly confounded that people are looking a gift horse activist movement that wants to fund environmental policies in the mouth simply because we use AI...
It would be nice to have fewer cars, we agree. That's why we set out policies that could ban cars from cityspaces while allowing bicycles and motorbikes, and vital shipping services for business to remain. We also want the remaining cars to be environmentally friendly.
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u/blacmm 1d ago
Hey so barring the environmental usages of AI it quite literally steals from artists, an underpaid overworked class of workers and is actively used to devalue art for any reasons. I get you can't afford an artist for your work but that doesn't make it then ok to do this and it doesn't suddenly make AI solarpunk just because you "need" it
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u/blacmm 1d ago
Some alternatives could be using stock art or photos and photobashing, reaching out to find an artist willing to do work for free because they care about the cause, put an ad out asking for an artist who wants work experience and is aware that you can't pay them. AI should not be the solution
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1d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/cromlyngames 20h ago
> Still a bit unfortunate that the mods on this sub don't grow a spine and remove... whatever this is
that's a bit unfair. 1) they had to learn the hard way and 2) I was elbow deep in underfloor most of yesterday.
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u/the68thdimension 21h ago
These kind of pics showing a supposedly Northern European city always amuse me. Sure, in spring the city might look like this but what about winter? All the leaves would be gone and all you'd have is concrete jungle. It's not really solar punk to me.
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u/Iacoma1973 1d ago edited 1d ago
This is a top level comment we made after seeing the exceptionally hostile response we received here :/ which was unexpected and honestly extremely disappointing from all of you. You are supposed to be r/solarpunk, but right now that's not how it feels. Feels like r/ludditism and a lot of exclusionary behaviour and brigading against our post simply for being partially AI-generated.
We want to remind all users in the comments section that you should abide by the subreddits rules, being rules 1, 3, and 5. Essentially, be civil in your discussion, if you can't be civil, simply state that you disagree and disengage from further conversation, and be tolerant of other interpretations of solarpunk.
We have differing views on technology and it's relation to solarpunk, but ultimately we believe that solarpunk isn't ludditism, it is the environment and technology coming together harmoniously, and we can only seem to agree to disagree on that.
Some of you think that using AI to create activist material "isn't solarpunk", even though solarpunk isn't just about the environment but also about helping the poor have access to tools to improve QoL, and being anti-capitalist. Some of you think Bosco verticale style architecture isn't solarpunk, because it isn't "real solarpunk architecture".
Some of you think that automation isn't solarpunk.
Some of you think hybrid cars running on renewable electricity, green hydrogen (which is not the same as the grey or blue hydrogen you are angry at), or biofuel isn't solarpunk, because "cars have no place in solarpunk", which is opinion.
Some of you are gatekeeping solarpunk, straw-manning us without actually hearing us out or reading about us, our values, or our policies. Saying we are "pro capitalism", or that we aren't genuine, or that we're "greenwashing". But we are none of these things... A few of you are even celebrating hating on us. How is that tolerant?
Some of you are rejecting scientific evidence about AI regarding it's actual energy usage or water usage, and so on, not what you hear about on the news, which is inherently biased and does not report well on scientific topics.
Do you want to know why it's disappointing? Because we are trying to help people like you in the UK. So it's like our own people are excluding and hating on us. Can you possibly imagine how that reflects on you as a subreddit, and how much it makes us want to just leave and never come back? To just post on other subreddits? Very few of you are remembering the human.
We clearly can't change your minds, and even though that's disappointing that's fine. But we remind you to abide by the subreddit rules.
However we do believe that all these things are solarpunk; whether you like it or not, the mods seem to have chosen not to delete this post, so we're going to continue our plans to post here gradually. Some of you expressed "feedback" (this is the polite way of putting it) that we don't include enough bicycles, or that our poster isn't lively enough, or that it's not solarpunk enough - and simultaneously that there is not enough stuff besides solarpunk present, like lively shops. You'll be glad to know that our posters cover a variety of topics because we have a comprehensive manifesto that covers many policies, and our posters are meant to reflect that. So there is variety in the poster art we plan to post here in the following weeks, some of which covers those points.
To be clear: Each of these posters is supposed to focus on a single thing. How can our poster ever cover every possible aspect of solarpunk that you all want? It's not possible, and everyone seems to be a critic. You're complaining about quality, which is fine, but we're just a small uni society. We don't have the funds to commission artists and our members are all to busy pursuing engineering degrees and masters to spend days painting masterpieces.
We really hope you can all be better people next time we post :/ if you disagree, that's fine. But try not to gatekeep solarpunk because it only does a disservice to the subreddit.
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u/GroundbreakingBag164 Go Vegan 🌱 1d ago
This made me so mad and was so funny at the same time that I'm actually gonna reply to this
This is a top level comment we made after seeing the exceptionally hostile response we received here :/ which was unexpected and honestly extremely disappointing from all of you. You are supposed to be r/solarpunk, but right now that's not how it feels. Feels like r/ludditism and a lot of exclusionary behaviour and brigading against our post simply for being partially AI-generated.
Classic "You're all luddites" reply, good start for an AI bro
We want to remind all users in the comments section that you should abide by the subreddits rules, being rules 1, 3, and 5. Essentially, be civil in your discussion, if you can't be civil, simply state that you disagree and disengage from further conversation, and be tolerant of other interpretations of solarpunk.
Yeah and you should posting content that's relevant to Solarpunk. Lets start at that. 99% of the users on this sub have been here for far far longer than you and actually know what they're talking about
We have differing views on technology and it's relation to solarpunk, but ultimately we believe that solarpunk isn't ludditism,
My brother or sister in whatever god or prophet you believe in you genuinely think cars are a good thing. We can't have different opinions about Solarpunk if you don't even know what Solarpunk is.
it is the environment and technology coming together harmoniously, and we can only seem to agree to disagree on that.
I don't think it's very punk to support greedy multi-billion dollar corporations stealing from actual Solarpunk artists to extract as much money as possible, but that's just my opinion...
Some of you think that using AI to create activist material "isn't solarpunk", even though solarpunk isn't just about the environment but also about helping the poor have access to tools to improve QoL, and being anti-capitalist.
It's famously easier and cheaper to have any form computer and internet access than... a rock. Or a stick. Or a piece of coal. Or a flower. Or whatever really. The fifth-grader that's drawing a penis on their school desk is closer to being an artist than you
Some of you are gatekeeping solarpunk, straw-manning us without actually hearing us out or reading about us, our values, or our policies.
I could use the same argument to defend fracking and oil drilling.
[...] A few of you are even celebrating hating on us. How is that tolerant?
Classic reply when someone doesn't get the response they want, good job. Right out of the playbook
Some of you are rejecting scientific evidence about AI regarding it's actual energy usage or water usage, and so on, not what you hear about on the news, which is inherently biased and does not report well on scientific topics.
Feel free to show us how specifically generative AI is actually good for the planet
Do you want to know why it's disappointing? Because we are trying to help people like you in the UK. So it's like our own people are excluding and hating on us.
We are definitely not "your people" lmfao
Can you possibly imagine how that reflects on you as a subreddit, and how much it makes us want to just leave and never come back?
Yeah that's the point. Glad you understood that. You can make your own sub though, they're free
To just post on other subreddits? Very few of you are remembering the human.
"remembering the human" might've been a bit easier if this post would've greeted us with actual human art
However we do believe that all these things are solarpunk; whether you like it or not, the mods seem to have chosen not to delete this post,
...yet
so we're going to continue our plans to post here gradually.
Oh this will be fun
So there is variety in the poster art we plan to post here in the following weeks, some of which covers those points.
Wohoooo, more AI slop!
We don't have the funds to commission artists and our members are all to busy pursuing engineering degrees and masters to spend days painting masterpieces.
But you obviously have time for meaningless debates on reddit I suppose
We really hope you can all be better people next time we post :/ if you disagree, that's fine.
"We really hope you can start posting actual Solarpunk content the next time"
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u/Remarkable_Thing6643 21h ago
Is this [insert stupid AI garbage here] Solarpunk?
Everyone: No
You (who failed to so much as google Solarpunk): WAHHHHH MEAN CRUELTY GATEKEEPING FART NOISES
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u/Spready_Unsettling 18h ago
To be clear: Each of these posters is supposed to focus on a single thing
Okay, I will give you qualified (two degrees in urban planning) feedback that reflects the level of thought and effort you put into the poster and description:
Road wide as hell. Car centered for no reason. Not solarpunk at all. Looks like like shit.
Some of you expressed "feedback" (this is the polite way of putting it) that we don't include enough bicycles, or that our poster isn't lively enough, or that it's not solarpunk enough - and simultaneously that there is not enough stuff besides solarpunk present, like lively shops.
It is just so hilariously obvious that you have no clue what solarpunk is when you write dumb shit like this. You seem to genuinely believe that "green" cars and green-clad high rises are more solarpunk than walkable neighborhoods and local commerce.
"cars have no place in solarpunk", which is opinion.
Yeah okay, whatever. Let's call it opinion. This sub is of the opinion that your take on solarpunk is dumb as shit. It's overwhelmingly clear that your opinions on what solarpunk is and isn't are not shared here. Maybe - just maybe - this ought to inspire some reflection on your end. Maybe - just maybe - you should make good on your threat and go peddle your AI slop in other subreddits.
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u/hissy-elliott 2h ago edited 1h ago
Check out this post this post a teenage girl posted a couple days ago over in r/journalism.
Go through the comments and notice how receptive she is to the criticism she gets. And it's not like multiple people were telling her the same thing, her work was getting negative feedback in every single direction over everything on something she had clearly been very proud of, as indicated by the "please don't steal my hard work" label she added. Not to mention, most people did not know (or at least not right away) she was barely 16 years old, so people weren't sugar coating their criticism with gloves on, or holding her to lower standards that would be considered "good" for a child.
And yet, she took it like a champ. She listened to what people had to say and didn't dismiss a single piece of feedback from anyone (and again, there was a multitude, not just one overarching issue like you have here).
Then, she made another post after listening to people. She's still getting a lot of feedback, but I have so much faith in her because you can tell she genuinely wants to listen to other people so that she can be better at making the world better.
She's barely 16, but you could learn a lot from her. Compare your reactions to hers, such as:
Thank you so much! it is very helpful and inspiring to have good and bad feedback come in. I think it is disappointing that schools don't offer a way for kids to learn what they actually want to do in life, so by posting on here I get to learn from my mistakes and progress in my life instead of strictly following a basic enforced rubric.
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u/solarpunk-ModTeam 20h ago
Heys there, this submissions was removed because it contained too vague AI art. Please post it to r/SolarpunkAIArt, r/imaginarySolarPunk or r/SolarpunkPorn instead.