3 weeks Vipassana in Chiang Mai

[u/Adorable_Degree_7277]

I am starting a full 21 days silent retreat next week.

I will be taught the Mahasi Sayadaw technique extensively.

How can I make the most of it to go as deep as possible ?

[u/eudoxos_]

All Mahasi centers I've seen include a small amount of metta in the schedule (be it a minute or two after each sit, or 20 minutes in the evening, or similar).

I am concerned by the advise you are giving. Can you really do half metta in retreat, i.e. something like 6+ hours a day, and how much insight into dukkha do you get?

I had a friend who turned to metta (there was no adequate insight support, unfortunately, as it seems) after 2 weeks of retreat, because, well, it feels much better; and in a way wasted what a 1-month timeframe could offer, because it put a nice blanket over loads of aversion. She went to a different retreat later and and caught up with stuff :).

[u/leedsgreen → u/eudoxos_]

In my experience, the 20 minutes of metta practice (or just chanting the metta sutta at the end of each day) was nowhere near enough bhavana for me. Pure Mahasi felt too intense and after reaching EQ early on I would usually contract into more and more intense dukkha nana territory, where it felt like I was re-traumatising myself. For myself (and I stress for myself) a balance between metta and Mahasi has proved more beneficial.

And I think seeing metta practice as a pleasant blanket is missing the point of the practice. I crossed the A&P explosively using metta and noting, it what felt a very natural and organic way and subsequently released huge amounts of psychological knots. I’m a bit wary of SOME pure Mahasi practitioners who claim first, second path etc but don’t appear to have shined any light on their shadow stuff and have very limited empathy/compassion. That said, I’m yet to attain SE so please take my advice with a grain of salt!

[u/eudoxos_ → u/leedsgreen]

Thank you for sharing your experience. I think it is (generally, don't know about your specifics) preferable, and more honest, to adjust practice in cooperation with the teacher. Often such urges reveal blind spots (aversion, striving too much, seriousness etc) which need to be addressed instead of worked around or avoided.

[u/leedsgreen → u/eudoxos_]

All good points. However, after several years at one Mahasi centre I stopped attending retreats there because the teacher expected pure Mahasi. Nothing wrong with that but after practicing that way for maybe 7-8 retreats I decided another tack would be better and started to re-incorporate more metta practice at another retreat centre (where you are allowed to follow your own practices). The difference was immediately palpable leading me to conclude it’s ‘horses for courses’ and the pure Mahasi style was too dry for me.

I think the most important thing is to give each method an honest try but ultimately follow one’s heart. Yes, you might be colluding with yourself and hiding from stuff but, as I’ve said, I’ve been shocked by the amount of shadow work some Mahasi practitioners avoid as they push on for their next path. Daniel Ingram reckons integration happens naturally after each path, I’m not so sure and think bhavana practice and/or therapy could really help some. Just my view 👍

[u/eudoxos_ → u/leedsgreen]

It makes more sense with the trajectory you describe. What style were the retreats you were doing? I noticed Ajahn Tong style of practice, being quite structured, can easily go into rut if this is not attended to.

I agree with you re shadow stuff fully. I have seen a number of practitioners who were just f**ked up humanely: socially, psychologically, etc. Too much seriousness, too much expectation meditation will fix everything (it won't, unfortunately, there is 8(!!)-fold path). I was one of them. May they wake up to the error of their ways and be more balanced.

As far as I remember, Ingram is not making the point exactly as you put it; he insists on first training (which includes the shadow work) being separate from the wisdom training. There is some integration one is forced into by the insight practices, because stuff just appears more, but one can easily slip into using the practice itself to bypass it (deconstructing it).

Ingram also speaks (somewhere) of practice along the sensation axis vs. feeling axis. I've been more on the feeling axis (for lack of high-freq unlimited mental energy, perhaps), so the deconstruction is not always available, and the amount of shadows (in the body/mind) is massive: I have history of depression, relational issues, chronic pain and others, predating the practice.

So I have been forced to look elsewhere a lot (which I fortunately did even before practicing, by curiosity), and found it of great benefit. Including therapy, addressing attachment, bodywork, engaging with other styles of meditation with much broader perspective (with Christopher Titmuss, in my case), all for a great benefit and enrichment.

And finally, my beloved quote from MCTB:

Dry insight workers have an unfortunate tendency to become uptight, irascible, emotionally brittle, and occasionally insufferable to be around, as if they were on speed or having a bad acid trip.

[u/leedsgreen → u/eudoxos_]

This is a really useful reply, eudoxos, thanks very much. I will read again and reply in more detail when I get chance in few days. Just arrived back in Columbo (in Sri Lanka) now, was on retreat near Kandy. Airport tomo and then flight back etc. Best wishes, leedsgreen

[u/leedsgreen → u/leedsgreen]

Thanks again for your reply eudoxos. Like you, I think I practice more on the 'feeling axis' and spend plenty of time in/looking at my shadow. It was actually Eugene Gendlin's book on Focusing that encouraged me to start my own version of noting (labelling) around the Millenium that, coupled with daily Metta practice, really started to shift deeper things around and led to big A&P. I note your points about Ingram advice but hadn't seen that MCTB quote on dry insight workers, which sums up my view concisely!

I first discovered MCTB in 2010 (and cried with joy/relief on reading it) and decided to slowly switch from bhavana retreats towards pure Mahasi (ie up at 3.30am and noting all day). I'm glad I stayed with it for several years but by the end, I just found it too hard and 'dry' and it was a relief to incorporate bhavana back into my practice. I did one retreat quite recently with the TWIM guys that I enjoyed but, mainly now, I go on retreats where I can follow my own inclinations. I note your point about ignoring blind spots and colluding but after 30 years of following retreat instructions to the letter, it's been interesting to take a more active approach in deciding what I do, which is currently metta bhavana one sit and Mahasi noting the next (as well as Mahasi walking, eating and toilet noting). Time will tell but my current view is that our individual karma has a huge impact on how quickly things open/change and I'm in much less of a rush now to get 'anywhere' but just try to stay in the moment ('this is it' as Daniel Ingram often says).