r/todayilearned • u/Ainsley-Sorsby • 1d ago

TIL Part of N.Machiavelli's diplomatic mission to Cesare Borgia included sending intel back to his government, even down to Borgia's personal habits. He noticed that he had inhuman energy and could go several nights working sleepless but occasionaly would "fall to his bed" and refuse to see anyone

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesare_Borgia#Personal_life
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u/Ainsley-Sorsby 1d ago

I'm not a psychiatrist mind you, but its kinda cool to see someone notice what appears to be bipolar behaviour long before psychiatry was invented, and also to deem it important enough to note down.

There are accounts recorded by Machiavelli during his time spent with Cesare Borgia during his diplomatic trips.[29][27][30] Machiavelli found that he could be at times secretive and taciturn, at other times loquacious and boastful. He alternated bursts of demonic activity when he stayed up all night receiving and dispatching messengers, with moments of unaccountable sloth when he remained in bed refusing to see anyone. He was quick to take offence and rather remote from his immediate entourage, yet he was very open with his subjects, loving to join local sports and cutting a dashing figure. However, at other times, Machiavelli observed Cesare as having "inexhaustible" energy and an unrelenting genius in military matters, and also diplomatic affairs, and he would go days and nights on end without seemingly requiring sleep.

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u/elder_george 1d ago

Yeah, this looks like a textbook case of the bipolar disorder to me.

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u/WilliamWeaverfish 1d ago

Alternatively, it's a case of a hard worker getting tired

He had "moments" of sloth, not a depressive period

Not everything needs to be pathologised

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u/Nerubim 1d ago

Even today most people in high positions show signs of pathologic disorders that might be uniquely why they got into those positions in the first place. Like a high tendency for sociopathy or psychopathy.

Even if you admire the hustle and thus don't want it tarnished by modern science, medicine and understanding in the field of psychology that doesn't mean you need to avert your eyes from a high likelihood of such characteristics to be a telltale sign of pathological conditions that simply were compensated by the times and following people like him had to live with alongside their undiagnosed condition.

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u/guel2500 1d ago

Yeah but he got to be a Duke because of nepotism and who his father was, even if after he did do some very noteworthy deeds. And also psychology is relative to the current times trying to diagnose a historical figure that existed 500 years ago with our knowledge of both history and psychology is futile

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u/starspider 1d ago

This is actually a practice done in medical school--diagnosing people who are long dead. It's considered to be a very worthy mental exercise that practices the process of gathering second hand information about symptoms from a patient struggling to communicate.

In 1996, Dr. Benitez, presented with a case study of a patient at a clinical pathological conference, concluded that the patient's symptoms and the timeline of his illness strongly suggested rabies.

The patient was later revealed to be Edgar Allen Poe.

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u/Mama_Skip 1d ago

No, no. Science too sciency. Big dum dums dont know things. Why not common sense? Smrt people no smrter than I.

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u/but_a_smoky_mirror 1d ago

Stupid science bitches couldn’t make I more smarter!!

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u/SyrupBather 1d ago

Scientists are liars! Sometimes

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u/Rational-Discourse 1d ago edited 1d ago

It’s an aspect of the field of anthropology to apply modern understandings to gain insight to historical figures, records, and events.

And yes, while he did get that because of nepotism/lineage, many people possessed power because of this in history. In fact, the most common method of being in power throughout history has been ancestral inheritance. Even if just a matter of relative wealth or opportunity. To this day, someone born with a head start on someone else has a better chance at money and/or power.

The noteworthy part is the deeds you point out and what he did with that power. Plenty of people in history were given every opportunity or influence and did nothing with it.

I look at it like I look at pro athletes. Jordan was one of the best to ever play the game. He was born (ETA: as someone who would become, lol) 6’6” and with natural athletic talent. Something that most will never have no matter how hard they work. The “born with it” part of my analogy. Every NBA player has these characteristics to some degree with few exceptions (Muggsy Bougues, e.g.), and every nba player was in the like 1 percent of talent relative to their time in the sport to make it to the nba in the first place. But Jordan had a unique mindset and work ethic that made him even more noteworthy than every player of his era. Maybe more noteworthy than any player in any era.

In short, to be given an opportunity and to do something interesting with it are two different topics. Just because someone like bogues was great despite his disadvantages doesn’t invalidate someone like Jordan for being a foot taller. Just my take.

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u/FrellYourCouch 1d ago

He was born 6’6”

his poor mother

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u/Rational-Discourse 1d ago

lol, fair enough. Poorly worded but of course meaning to say he is 6’6” as a random circumstance of the genetic lottery.

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u/GozerDGozerian 1d ago

I’m pretty sure by the time that was done he had two half mothers. :(

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u/PokemonSapphire 1d ago

Can you imagine how good it must have felt after coming out and being able to stretch after 9 months?

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u/HuwminRace 1d ago

I don’t particularly know why you’re so reluctant to consider the possibility? It does no harm for people to speculate.

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u/beambot 1d ago

The knee-jerk reaction to the psychoanalysis centers around describing their conditions as "pathologies", which has negative connotations (eg relating to disease) when it might actually be a strategic asset in many contexts. If it didn't have the negative connotations, people would feel less defensive about the classifications

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u/Nerubim 1d ago

It is pathologic because those conditions can and will lead to harm to the people themselves or those around them.

Or do you truly believe that going days or weeks without sleep was good for his health for example? Or that they truly were productive in those segments 24/7 and a normal workload would not have created the same result with less health risk?

Also manic outbursts could have resulted in harm and death to people around him, but thanks to his followers and money as well as the realtive ease of hiding transgressions back in those days they could easily be kept out of the history books so people hundreds of years into the future, us, could not ever know.

And to the point of being a strategic asset. Being highly bulimic could also be a strategic asset for models. Howether science and medicine does not care for this. An economic professor maybe, but that's not what's being discussed. The medical context is clear and the psychological indications even moreso. Hence why we call them the way we do.

In conclusion pathologies are a very much warranted connotation.

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u/Professionalchump 1d ago

I bet he would have appreciated knowing of his condition back then

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u/Ok_Peak_9395 1d ago

Hard worker doesn’t equal “inexhaustible energy” lol

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u/Ainsley-Sorsby 1d ago

Yeah, going through Machiavelli's reports themselves, i havn't seen any direct observations yet, but he describes stuff like this:

Your Lordships will have learned from my letter of the 5th that the Duke had gone to Salarolo to confer with those French gentlemen. During his absence I received yours of the 5th. His Excellency returned late yesterday evening, and today, after having reviewed the Swiss, who begin to arrive, he could not give me an audience until the first hour of the night. https://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/detmold-the-historical-political-and-diplomatic-writings-vol-3

and later, on the same report:

About two hours after this conversation with the Duke an agent of the Bentivogli came to me and told me that he had just had an audience from the Duke, and that shortly after my leaving the court the ratification of the treaty arrived; but that the Duke was nevertheless anxious to conclude a separate treaty with Bologna, and that he had commissioned him at once to send a messenger to the Protonotario to have him come here immediately. He has not yet arrived, having injured one of his toes.

so basically he describes someone who, the day after a long trip, had a full schedule until 1AM, and even two hours later, he was still busy talking to people and dispatching messengers. I would say that definitely tracks as an indication of having ubnormal levels of energy, lol

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u/GingerCraig 1d ago

first hour of the night.

that does not mean 1AM , it's probably 8 or maybe 9pm. Also travel for the well-to-do has never been an exhausting undertaking. nothing in this seems overtly abnormal

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u/Ainsley-Sorsby 1d ago edited 1d ago

you think so? I figured it was 1am because in the same batch of reports, he his time reports suggest 24h clock, for example:

The bearer of this leaves at the twenty-second hour, and has promised to be at Florence to-morrow evening, for which I have promised him a gold florin; which your Lordships will kindly have paid to him. https://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/detmold-the-historical-political-and-diplomatic-writings-vol-3

or

At dinner-time his Eminence was again sent for by the Pope, who made him stay to dinner and detained him until near the twenty-fourth hour. https://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/detmold-the-historical-political-and-diplomatic-writings-vol-3

or he mentions getting an audience "at the twentieth hour"

As this courier is to return to Florence, I have concluded to write you by him what has taken place here since my first despatch. Being at court to day at about the twentieth hour https://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/detmold-the-historical-political-and-diplomatic-writings-vol-3

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u/GingerCraig 1d ago

The time period would've been using Italian Time which essentially starts at sunset.

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u/Ainsley-Sorsby 1d ago

hm. I stand corrected. TIL, i guess

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u/ovensandhoes 1d ago

Wow I can see why this time keeping system never caught on

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u/GozerDGozerian 1d ago

In an era before artificial lighting and high speed travel and communication, there was really no need to standardized time. Everything happened on the local level. Each town was somewhat of an island. Whatever was going on 50 miles away was completely inaccessible to anyone until they went there or someone from there traveled to them. And without electric light, whatever time the sun set and rose was kind of the main influence of what kind of activity one could engage in. When the best you’ve got is candle light or maybe a fireplace, the world is pretty damn dark until the sun reappears.

The idea of having actual standardized time want important to anyone until seafarers needed it for navigation purposes. And then with the advent of trains, the railroad companies needed it, along with the people using that mode of transportation.

If we were still in an era where a person walking was about as fast as people or information could travel, and an era where the sunset made lots of things you could do impossible until next morning, we’d probably go back to a similar system as well.

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u/ITividar 1d ago

My 30 min drive to work (20 miles) is what they could cover in a good day by land. Pretty sure no matter your status, travel was exhausting and long.

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u/GingerCraig 1d ago

long certainly. Exhausting will largely differ by status and method. if you're sitting in a carriage it;s just boring not "exhausting"

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u/ITividar 1d ago

Spend all day on horseback, see if you're not exhausted. Or spend all day traveling in a carriage without suspension, feeling every bump in the road. Super not exhausting being tossed about, yeah?

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u/DistrictOpen3163 1d ago

or 10 hours on a plane...you aren't doing anything, but it's absolutely exhausting

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u/nathtendo 18h ago

Spend 3 days on an all inclusive cruise to get across the lake, see how tired you are.

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u/GingerCraig 1d ago

Sure but in this very context, it's Imola to Salarolo and back so about 25ish km (15ish miles?) which on horseback would be 4-5 hours chill . long but not all day in an unsuspended cart. and still certainly not "Exhausting"

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u/tourguide1337 1d ago

sir this is reddit, we have to have a full medical diagnosis and treatment recommendations by the 3rd comment.

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u/lacostewhite 1d ago

Side question: how did they tell time? They didn't have clocks back then. If anything, there would be church bells rung every hour?

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u/GingerCraig 1d ago

They had clocks . but using Italian Time.

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u/Ainsley-Sorsby 1d ago edited 1d ago

Church bells work, but they also had a whole bunch of different clocks, just not always mechanical ones. Sun dials and hour glasses being the most obvious ones

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u/BannedByRWNJs 1d ago

For days on end. Yeah, that’s just not a sign of someone who is well. It may sound great, but it’s just not how a healthy human body works. 

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u/Boekie87 1d ago

Tho you are absolutely correct, the reverse should also be avoided: disregard psychiatric symptoms as normal or part of a persona. The high peaks and deep lows described, paired with episodes of secrecy and paranoia, hint at a person that at times was very vulnerable.

Bipolar disorders are complex, but patiënts deserve to be recognized as such to protect them and their surroundings. Normalizing or holding them to other standards can be unfair and unfairly frustrating.

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u/VanderHoo 1d ago

Cause all the hard workers we've met in life are people that stay up for days, then eventually crash and have to recover for awhile? Not everything needs to be pathologized, but there's a clear pathology to that kind of behaviour. I say this as a self-employed hard-worker with ADHD that purposefully and regularly works for 24-36 hour sprints. I don't crash quite as hard as Borgia, but he didn't have a case of Monster's in his fridge. 🤷‍♂️

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u/CrossP 1d ago

Days and nights without sleep is a strong diagnostic criterium for a manic episode. Hard workers keep good sleep schedules unless there's an emergency.

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u/fawlen 1d ago

People who are not manic or are not on drugs don't spend days at a time awake with no sleep

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u/Zephrok 1d ago

Not everything needs to be non-pathologised either. Him being a hard worker doesn't explain why his mood swings were extreme enough to be notable.

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u/WilliamWeaverfish 1d ago

He refused to see anyone because he wanted to sleep! That's not an extreme mood swing

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u/halflife5 1d ago

Staying up for days on end and then spending days alone doing nothing and seeing nobody isn't normal so there was definitely something wrong about him. If it works it works but the dude obviously had something going on if his mood and energy swings were so crazy.

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u/NotMorganSlavewoman 1d ago

People can't sleep for long periods of time willingly, so it's not 'just tired, gonna sleep for 1 entire week'. He had something more than just sleepiness, and bipolar disorder is very plausible.

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u/halflife5 1d ago

Yeah normal people don't do what this guy did.

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u/Zephrok 1d ago

Yeah you're right that it could be relatively normal behaviour, but "Bipolar Disorder" is a thing. People have it now, would have had it then, and there's nothing wrong with that. I don't really get why it's a big deal to you to wonder if a historical figure has it.

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u/TryptaMagiciaN 1d ago edited 1d ago

No it cannot. Normal people can not stay up for a few nights and still be productive. He either had a condition or he used some sort of substance. Anyone with a "normal" psychology could try staying awake for 3 days and see how industrious they are. Like I dont know why that other guy felt the need to argue. You were fine to acknowledge that there was some sort of disorder. I dont get why it such a big deal to him either.

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u/ArchLith 1d ago

In high-school all the way to my mid 20s I would stay up for 2-3 days at a time and then crash for 24+ hours, but that's because as long as my mind is active and I'm enjoying whatever it is I'm doing i don't feel tired. That might be my ADHD or some undiagnosed issue but it's definitely possible for other people because I've had roommates in the past who did the same thing.

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u/TryptaMagiciaN 1d ago

That would be likely be your adhd which is abnormal neurology. I got it too. Did you ever drink soda during those 24+ hr episodes?

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u/ArchLith 1d ago

Sometimes but not always. Shortly after I graduated i always had soda on hand, since I was like 23 I rarely drink soda unless I'm using it as a chaser.

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u/cagingnicolas 1d ago

this happens literally every time mental illness is discussed.
some people just seem to get annoyed by their existence.

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u/zilviodantay 1d ago

I have a feeling Machiavelli wasn’t referring to normal bed time when he specifically made the observation. What the hell kind of intel is “this man sleeps”?

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u/surle 1d ago

Not necessarily. But also not necessarily not.

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u/kdthex01 1d ago

Somebody drinking the grind-aid lol

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u/plzdontbmean2me 1d ago

Good luck being a hard worker and staying up multiple nights in a row

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u/GeneralEi 1d ago

A "moment" is described to be him in his bed, refusing to get up or see anyone. You're characterising it as an extremely brief timeslot, which that description does not fit. A "moment" is a vague descriptor, can mean a few seconds or less to days depending on the person saying it.

I get "When you hear hoofbeats, think horses not zebras" but I think you're reaching to justify a lack of pathology here

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u/TheImmenseRat 1d ago

You are speaking from ignorance, and it shows.

Bipolar is not only about mood swings from mania to depression. it's also about the energy the person may have or lack suddenly

Those episodes can last from years, months, weeks or just days, and people close to them see those shifts that have a direct impact on those close relationships

But it looks that you don't know about that and you are just trying to ignore or just dismiss this completely

I hope you understand that not all people are the same and feel the same way all the time, even if its not regarding a pathology, but when it does, you should inform yourself before speaking

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u/Tvdinner4me2 1d ago

No but if it looks like a duck

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u/EsquilaxM 1d ago

It's a witch.

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u/Rosebunse 1d ago

No one is working that hard without mental illness.

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u/Oopthealley 1d ago

Lol you're trying too hard. Someone working through the night with "demonic activity" is not a "hard worker"- that's mania.

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u/NotAllOwled 1d ago

Plus, I mean, he was a Borgia, not a medical resident or a lawyer trying to make partner or something. Hard work in that context mostly wasn't a "need to take a bunch of 16th-c Adderall equivalent to figure out how to crush the Sforzas in the next 72 hours" kind of vibe, I'm thinking?

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u/Embarrassed-Weird173 1d ago

Not everything needs to be pathologised

What a hostile thing to say. You probably have narcissism. 

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u/H0lzm1ch3l 1d ago

You are right, not everything needs to be a pathology. So, let’s view bipolar disorder not as a disorder but rather a uniqueness of a person that can bring positive and negative effects depending on the social position of that person.

That still means it’s a deviation from what we consider normal. So much so that people notice that person to be different. Does not matter what you call it or how you frame it, the man was clearly bipolar.

Psychoeducation can be helpful for people that deviate so heavily from the norm. Because they can’t really learn from those around them. Knowing what it is that makes them different can help them take better care of themselves and those around them.

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u/IdPileDriveYoda 1d ago

Dude apparently went days without sleeping. I'm bipolar, I've done this.

I highly doubt he was up for days just because he was a hard worker, he still needs his sleep

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u/entrepenurious 1d ago

think of it as a description, rather than a value judgment.

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u/CrazyBastard 22h ago

many bipolar people skew more heavily towards mania or depression. The not needing to sleep is the big giveaway

not everything needs to be pathologized, but neurodiversity should not be erased

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u/DragonClam 1d ago

But whats the fun in that when we can pass out diagnoses like Oprah passes out cars?

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u/BasilSerpent 1d ago

Sounds like you can relate but are scared of a label

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u/1337b337 1d ago

Yep, definitely bipolar disorder.

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u/galwegian 1d ago

I agree. I’ve known people like this. Some people just have minds that work on another level. Making the rest of us look like lazy idiots. The fuckers.

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u/cagingnicolas 1d ago

how does meeting people who fit this description offer any insight into their mental health?

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u/Asuka_Rei 1d ago

Bipolar is mostly depression with occasional brief spurts of mania. He is described as being both competent and full of energy, which doesn't sound like mania which is characterized as a period of disorganized high energy with poor decision making. Plus, it sounds like he is mostly high energy with brief periods of down time, which is the opposite of the typical bipolar pattern. If there is something abnormal here, I would guess drug abuse rather than bipolar. Or it could just be an enthusiastic hard worker who occasionally runs himself to exhaustion and needs to recover.

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u/accidentalviking 1d ago

There are different types of bipolar. What's described in this post is type I. You've described type II.

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u/iwasneverborn 1d ago

As some one with bipolar 1 disorder, I can tell you that that is incorrect. I can be in manic episodes for several weeks followed by a brief depressive state of a few days. Manic and depressive episodes are unique to each individual.

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u/Basket_475 1d ago

That is not what I’ve read about bipolar. It’s not mainly depression there are two types but each individual can experience it in their own way. Some never really get depressed. Some never really go full manic.

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u/ja734 1d ago

Sounds more like ADHD to me. The description makes it sound like his cycles were more about hyperfocus and physical burnout rather than mania and depression.

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u/LaserKittenz 1d ago

Possibly ADHD 

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u/Smash_Palace 1d ago

Doesn't really to me. Seems like a relatively normal but talented person

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u/darcmosch 1d ago

I have BP2 and that's me!

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u/Rusbekistan 1d ago

Cesare Borgia, you're back?????

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u/darcmosch 1d ago

Yes, my son. Now let me go fall to my bed

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u/fartmouthbreather 1d ago

Close enough, welcome back!

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u/darcmosch 1d ago

Thanks! It's good to be welcomed

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u/plzdontbmean2me 1d ago

Haha I’m bipolar 1 and this definitely sounds very familiar. This sounds more like type 2 though, because I’m legit fuckin insane during my mania (and it lasts for a very long time)

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u/on_the_nightshift 1d ago

Was cocaine invented yet? LOL.

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u/Rosebunse 1d ago

Yes but I don't think it was in Italy yet

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u/Jacob_Ambrose 1d ago

About 300 years short for cocaine

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u/azenpunk 1d ago

I was thinking along the same lines, but amphetamine

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u/DeismAccountant 1d ago

Knowing the Inca had better medicine at this time, I wonder what they would’ve made of Machiavelli’s notes here.

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u/noteasily0ffended 1d ago

I'm not entirely certain but we can be sure it would involve maize.

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u/DeismAccountant 1d ago

I thought Maize was more based in North America though…

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u/noteasily0ffended 1d ago

I'm not sure if you are taking the piss still, they definitely had corn in Peru.

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u/DeismAccountant 1d ago

Oh I can see it spreading, I just think of them as more North American on impulse.

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u/su1cid3boi 1d ago

I can spot another cyclothimic when i see one

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u/JesusIsCaesar33 1d ago

Am bipolar, can confirm.

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u/Physical_Ad4617 1d ago

I'm guessing this was cocaine related

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u/Squiddlywinks 1d ago

About 300 years too early for that.

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u/Physical_Ad4617 1d ago

Egyptian Mummies had more than trace amounts of cocaine, there is a lot of shit about cocaine use we don't know.

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u/Squiddlywinks 1d ago

Even if we agree that more than trace amounts of cocaine were found on mummies, that's off by 2500 years in the other direction. If there was cocaine available in Machiavelli's time, it would have been a traded commodity and we would have records of it.

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u/mkti23 1d ago

Is ancient Egyptian cocaine the new Roman concrete?

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u/SuperMondo 1d ago edited 1d ago

I liked when Cesare and Ezio had that brawl during the huge battle in 1507

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u/4d4m1 1d ago

Just a few years after Ezio beat up the pope

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u/No_Classroom_1626 1d ago

The unusual energy is from his control over the Apple of Eden. As we all know.

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u/Greene_Mr 1d ago

Also, he was played by Orson Welles, in a movie! Prince of Foxes.

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u/LordNorros 1d ago

I preferred the Showtime Borgias vs the Canal + version, though I did enjoy them both

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u/periodicchemistrypun 1d ago

He got like adhd and depression or bi polar or a cocaine habit before it was discovered?

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u/mcarder30 1d ago

Based on the very minimal quote given here it would be hypomania vs mania which would give either a bipolar 1 or 2 diagnosis.

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u/periodicchemistrypun 1d ago

It’s limited and some high functioning autistic, adhd or bipolar people currently fit the description. Amazing how lacking they were in currently widespread knowledge of how minds work because only a little bit more info would be needed to hint to the correct one.

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u/create_account_again 1d ago

The part where he would still be open to meeting his subjects stood out to me while his low phases. ADHD with hyper focus can pull this off too. Not an expert here.

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u/ShiraCheshire 1d ago

Not an expert either, but have talked with one when getting my ADHD diagnosis. It turns out that ADHD hyperfixation and bipolar mania can look very similar, but the key diagnostic difference is the amount of sleep missed. Getting roughly 4 or more hours a night is more likely to be ADHD, where as going for days on no sleep or just a few hours of sleep is more likely to be bipolar. Of course, the other symptoms must be taken into account to be sure, but that's how it was explained to me by a professional.

In an additional very non-professional and uninformed opinion, I'd say the lowness of the lows also points to bipolar. I have ADHD, and with the power of hyperfixation I am immune to all tiredness. When my brain is stuck on something, I can go with very little sleep without having any crash at all after. Sure there might be the need for an occasional decent 8-ish hour rest, or ending up sick because I ran myself ragged and my immune system suffered as a result, but no big notable crash. My friend with bipolar does have big crashes though, going up and down like a roller coaster over periods of time.

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u/create_account_again 1d ago

Agree as a fellow ADHD'er. I didn't know about the sleep hours as a criteria for diagnosis. Cool piece of info.

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u/periodicchemistrypun 1d ago

The differences would be apparent with comments on mood, self perception and sustainability.

Someone with adhd might put as much effort into a task but will do it because of the task or subject itself.

A manic person is likely to end up discussing how their project will change the world.

There’s a very different emotional drive involved in them and the manic person is more certain to crash when the process ends

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u/DaggerInMySmile 1d ago

Well... yeah. That's always been, and still is, a huge part of what diplomats do.

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u/chapterpt 1d ago

Dude was probably hypomanic.

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u/ThePeoplesChort 1d ago

Oh shit, it me

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u/Friendly-Profit-8590 1d ago

Was Borgia a heavy drinker? Just curious what he did, if anything, to try to self medicate. Not sure what else was available back then.

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u/Rosebunse 1d ago

That sounds like bipolar disorder.

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u/socokid 1d ago

Drug abuse can often have the same symptoms as this as well.

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u/TortelliniTheGoblin 1d ago

Mental illness has always existed

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u/untitledfolder4 1d ago

Lot of comments assuming disorders but isnt it just as likely he was taking substances he had no knowledge of taking? I dont wanna contradict the psychology experts here..

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u/HootleMart84 1d ago

He just like me fr

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u/Kind-Ad9038 1d ago

Keith Richards as a reincarnation of Borgia is an interesting concept.

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u/TheTouchler 1d ago

Cool. He ain't special