r/boxoffice • u/chanma50 Best of 2019 Winner • Jan 19 '25

Domestic Paramount's BETTER MAN was an extinction-level event in its 2nd weekend, dropping a whopping -76% w/ just $255k, $1.8M total. This will likely go down as the lowest-grossing, wide studio release of 2025...

https://x.com/ERCboxoffice/status/1881013947526226016?t=JWxhq4eskqF88W_JotOs4w&s=19
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429

u/MysteriousHat14 Jan 19 '25

I mean, this movie bombing in America is an absolute non story. The interesting thing is that it doesn't seem to be doing well overseas either.

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u/Optimism_Deficit Jan 19 '25

I think he has a slightly peculiar level of fame.

He's definitely a household name in the UK and a few other countries, but he's not a universally recognised global megastar.

His career sort of peaked in the late 90s and 00s. He can still pull in big crowds for his tours and gets booked to play big public events, where he invariably sings a few of his hits from 20 or so years ago. His career isn't doing badly, but he's not really in the public consciousness.

Other than this movie and the promotional tour for it, the most recent thing I can remember him doing is a cat food commercial.

I guess even in the UK, not many people felt they needed to see a movie of his life.

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u/uberduger Jan 19 '25

He can still pull in big crowds for his tours and gets booked to play big public events, where he invariably sings a few of his hits from 20 or so years ago. His career isn't doing badly, but he's not really in the public consciousness.

I guess even in the UK, not many people felt they needed to see a movie of his life.

I'd have genuinely been more likely to see a hypothetical 90-12 minute long gig of his in a cinema, like Taylor Swift's Eras tour release, than I would this.

I'll totally watch this on TV one day but I don't care about him enough to see a biography, and the fact it's got a monkey as the lead role just makes me confused, not particularly more intrigued.

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u/SnooDonkeys5917 Jan 19 '25

I agree and there’s a documentary already out on Netflix about him, why they need this as well...

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u/Skyblacker Jan 22 '25

His "Live at Knebworth" is on Netflix. It's pretty good.

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u/Fit-Refrigerator-796 Jan 19 '25 edited Jan 19 '25

My hypothesis is that despite being huge in his time he just doesn't have the public affection comparatively big music stars from the decades before him still have. Mainstream music just seemed to matter less and provoked less passion in 00s compared to the 60s-80s in the UK. It was the height of tabloid celebrity culture (Williams was a big part of that) and disposability. Even in rock and what we call indie bands tended to turn up sell a lot of records to casual buyers then fade without developing a strong fandom or much cultural impact.

TLDR- I just don't think there's a lot of nostalgia for the era when Robbie was king in UK music. Stars of that era had less mystery and were covered much more flippantly and were thus less revered. Despite Robbie being a great show man with a solid catalogue of songs.

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u/mg10pp DreamWorks Jan 19 '25

I perfectly agree with you and that's the main thing I was thinking when I heard about the movie (well, apart from the monkey)

He just doesn't seem like the kind of singer who can have a movie about him, and in any case certainly not now. That's like making a movie about Justin Timberlake in around 10 years from now assuming he doesn't have any new success in the meantime

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u/mutesa1 Marvel Studios Jan 20 '25

Nah, Timberlake is far too big lol - he could completely disappear for the next decade and a movie about him would still do well, would probably revive his career if anything. Even outside of his actual music - *NSYNC, the drama with Britney Spears, the Janet Jackson Super Bowl debacle, and the Social Network will keep him in the public consciousness for a long time

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u/Darkzapphire Jan 20 '25

I agree.

Im biased since im a huge fan of his, but he is a phenomenal artist.

Im not touching his ability to dance, sing, write and so on, or his tours, but other than that, he also appeared multiple times along with the lonely island, done stuff with fallon (whether you like him or not), actor in movies, soundtracks for a franchise (trolls) and so on

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u/Optimism_Deficit Jan 19 '25

It's a good point. If you've seen a lot of someone's life play out in the newspapers during your own lifetime, then it kind of kills a lot of the mystery around them.

There's also the fact that a lot of biopics are made after the subject has died, when there's nostalgia for them.

With Robbie, he's still kicking around doing gigs and popping up at charity events to sing Let Me Entertain You for the millionth time. Anyone who wants to watch him can go and do it.

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u/KTDWD24601 Jan 24 '25

I agree a huge appeal of the biopic genre is about connecting to an artist you cannot see in person any more.

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u/[deleted] Jan 21 '25

[deleted]

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u/Fit-Refrigerator-796 Jan 21 '25

I guess they thought the uniqueness of the concept would sell it perhaps? I'm British and live in the US- and I couldn't believe it when I first saw a trailer for it at a cinema here!

1

u/DirkDigg79 Jan 24 '25 edited Jan 24 '25

Some good points here.

It is true that while he was arguably the biggest star in England for a few years post Rude Box there isn't much clamour for him.

Oasis announced comeback and the reaction was insane i am not sure it would be the same for Robbie. I don't know if he could do a Knebworth again.

As mentioned about the tabloids it was the Robbie Williams story for a few years and everyone followed it but now it's all in the past it's kind of shown that it was just a disposable thing and he never had that true credibility to become immortal

That is something i suspect has always bother him the Gallaghers a common reference point to kind of everything he would like to have been. He was a cheeky pop star who rose above what was expected of him but he was never really a true 'Artist'

Or was he i don't know i go back and forth with him he did write some lovely songs and he was very sincere at times i honestly don't know what it is with him maybe it is just perception

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u/KTDWD24601 Jan 24 '25

You don’t remember the insanity of his Take That reunion??

That tour and album still hold records.

You are comparing Robbie solo to Oasis solo. The more direct comparison is Robbie solo with Noel and Liam solo, and Oasis with Take That. 

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u/DirkDigg79 Jan 24 '25 edited Jan 24 '25

The Take That reunion felt more like a publicity stunt. He hasn't released an album in about 20 years

I just mean from my perspective i really liked Robbie growing up his peak was when i was about 14 to 18 and i thought he was huge at the time but once i grew up i didn't have the same affection for him he just didn't have the aura of the true lasting greats.

I remember when the did the 2005 Live Aid and he came on like Freddy Mercury but nobody knew the words to his songs and he was a bit embarrassed.

He obviously has a hardcore healthy sized fan base and now i am even older i like him again and remember him fondly but i can see that he isn't a universally accepted A lister any more he was good in his moment

But a George Michael for example is far more revered and missed than a Robbie would be in my opinion.

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u/KTDWD24601 Jan 24 '25

You have a terrible memory problem, then.

Seriously, look up his Live 8 performance on YouTube. It was a mass singalong. https://youtu.be/KNl40iCABzs?si=27uzigZK3TslBuUf

It was widely remarked on at the time as a brilliant performance. It confounded the Americans, who of course do not know who he is.

Take That reunion produced the fastest selling album of the century to date a record-breaking tour. Both were critically acclaimed as well, with many critics considering it their most interesting work.

And his last studio album was 2019, his  last Greatest Hits package was in 2022, and he has another album due out later this year. Plus the Better Man soundtrack album is No 1 this week. 

I think you have suffered from a thing that sometimes happens, when people in their 20s become embarrassed by the things they liked as a teenager. It usually eases off as you get old enough to be nostalgic about your teenage years. This affects many artists, and is why there is often a fallow period in the middle of their career, followed by a comeback.

George Michael was actually widely regarded as sadly a bit embarrassing before his death rehabilitated his image. That was largely due to the effect of his drug usage and the fact that he had struggled to consistently produce music.

Death is an amazing career move. Nothing reminds people how much they really loved an artist all along like them dying. Particularly since people don’t like to speak ill of the dead, and eulogies will focus on their good deeds and achievements.

If Robbie died tomorrow there would be an absolute outpouring of love for him. All the people he quietly did nice things for - and there are lots of them - would be talking about him, and appearing in news stories on TV and radio. The fact that he gave millions of his own money away to help schemes and charities in Stoke and surrounding areas would be a news story, his work as a long-term UNICEF ambassador would be a news story, Soccer Aid would be a news story, all the old Live 8 and Knebworth clips would be on the telly. Clips of the skits he did for Comic Relief would be on the telly. The other members of Take That would be getting teary talking about him, the Gary-Robbie reconciliation story would be retold and Shame would get played on the radio.  His wife would be all over the place talking about him.

Hopefully he is not going to die for a very long time, and will be well into his ‘legend’ period by then anyway, but truly you are not making a like-for-like comparison when you compare him to George Michael.

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u/DirkDigg79 Jan 24 '25 edited Jan 24 '25

https://youtu.be/2lgeG3HCGLI?si=5HkuIqWkscKUdkzD

First 30 seconds please there is nothing wrong with my memory i assure you

I don't need an exhaustive list of every philanthropic deed he did i am judging him as musician or as a Star and hi effect on the general public obviously people who love him are going to defend him and list all of his best points but generally speaking as it stands without the film or the documentary i never ever hear anybody say i wish Robbie would come back with some new material

You are absolutely right about how we age and how our tastes fluctuate like i posted before i went from like a lot to bit embarrassing and now older and seeing him again liking him.

But what i am getting at is even though he might have a great 3rd act in the future if he stopped right now and we took him as current standing a George Michael pre death while admittedly embarrassing was still remembered and thought of with much higher prestige

I say this as somebody who thinks Robbie wrote some really good songs and is a fantastic performer but i don't know what it is even now i am older with more clarity less prejudice i can see he lacks something to put him in the All timers list

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u/KTDWD24601 Jan 24 '25

The first 30 seconds when the audience belts out the first line of the song?? 🙄 Followed by a joke when the second line is a little late?

Really?? 

I see plenty of people saying they want Robbie to come back with new material, because I spend time online in Robbie fan-spaces, which are heavily Instagram and Facebook-oriented, because they are the platforms that he uses and because his audience skews female and older.

No-one outside of hardcore fan groups  talks about wanting a new Paul McCartney or Elton John album either - and they only manage to get back on the single charts when they team up with younger artists. So it goes. It doesn’t mean they are not hugely beloved or popular still. 

Middle-aged popstars of course use things like documentaries and books and films to increase their public profile, because radio airplay tends to favour younger artists. This is unremarkable. 

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u/DirkDigg79 Jan 24 '25 edited Jan 24 '25

The build up before was set up so he would do a Queen. He was supposed to be the Freddy Mercury that night and it fell a bit flat. I know you clearly love him but you can't be deliberately ignorant they knew the one line that any Joe with a radio would know but then gave up and it petered on the second line.

I'm not being a dick about it or trying to throw shade on him i am just illustrating the point this concert wasn't Robbie hardcores it was the general public and the song clearly wasn't that popular enough for just everyone too sing along to

You mention McCartney or Elton John both headlined Glastonbury recently i would bet that if Robbie was announced as a headliner a lot of people would sigh

A lot of his fanbase comes from people being invested in the Robbie Williams story and being endeared to him personally but if you take all that away and just look at him objectively with no emotions him as a pure musician doesn't have the same effect

Maybe that's not fair but it's just the way it is there is a perception around him of not cool or a 'serious artist' for whatever reasons

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u/KTDWD24601 Jan 24 '25

Again, your memory has failed you. And that is quite bizarre given that you say you like him. 

Round up of the contemporary press reviews http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=21446.0;wap2

Some people will undoubtedly complain when Robbie headlines Glasto. Some people complain every year. But then they will watch it and have a great time, and begrudgingly admit it afterwards. 

→ More replies (0)

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u/KTDWD24601 Jan 24 '25

I kind of agree but have a slightly different angle on it.

The likes of Elvis and Elton John and Queen have a huge amount of mythology and actively engage in self-mythologising.

The reason people are convinced Freddie Mercury was such an amazing singer (don’t get me wrong, he was great - but not as great as a lot of people think) is that Queen would carefully overdub their live recordings in the studio to fix any problems before releasing them. If you hunt down the fan bootlegs from the time you can heard plenty of gigs where his voice was terrible - old-school Queen fans would make sure to book for night 1 of a multi-night stop, because by night 2 the voice would be going. The myth of him being the greatest singer going was carefully cultivated even when he was alive, and even more so after his passing.

And Elton? That bit about him and Bernie accidentally being matched up by pure chance, by a guy just picking an envelope off a pile - the story that Elton has been telling for 50 years? That’s a myth also. That guy is still alive and has given interviews, and says he carefully matched them up with each other because he thought they were a good fit. Also, it is certainly not true that Elton and Bernie never argued! They may have never argued about songs because Bernie bit his lip, but they did not always see eye to eye on music. And they did argue about other stuff.

I know these things because I love Freddie Mercury and I love Elton John. This is not a diss. It’s just acknowledging that part of being a star is building a personal mythology.

Unfortunately Robbie’s mental health problems and the nastiness of the press in the 90s prevented a personal mythology like that being built. If anything he and the press underrate his talent and undermine his image. When you listen to people who worked with him at the time - and if you cast an eye over their non-Robbie-related work - you get a very different picture of his talent. He appears to be one of those lightning-rod people who bring the best work out of people around them - he is the common denominator in a lot of people’s biggest successes.

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u/ResearchBot15 Jan 20 '25

It’s funny because the trailer literally opens with him saying “I’m Robbie Williams, one of the biggest pop stars in the world” and I swear half the theater immediately took out their phones to google him😂

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u/TimeToBond Jan 20 '25

“No no no. The fictional character’s name must be Robbie Williams.”

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u/Zlesxc Jan 24 '25

This was unironically me

15

u/_lippykid Jan 20 '25

That in itself is a pretty big marketing mishap. The whole story is about rags to riches, and to kickoff the trailer with “I’m a fucking living legend” was totally wrong. Should have started off outlining his humble upbringing, and built up to him overcoming the odds to becoming a huge star. Like a Billy Elliot type angle- that way, people knowing (or not knowing) Robbie wouldn’t have mattered, as the story is worth watching all on its own

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u/ResearchBot15 Jan 20 '25

That would’ve worked well…but then how do you explain the monkey of it all? I’m guessing they leaned into the “celebrity” factor to try to make the monkey thing work, instead neither ended up being successful

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u/tellmort-yourmove Jan 20 '25

I feel like this is the main thing. Him being an ape is a choice. Why?? WTF were they thinking? Maybe I would see this movie without the ape angle. With it, hard pass.

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u/Skysflies Jan 20 '25

Its actually explained quite well in the movie, and honestly you barely notice it anyway once it's going, the problem is, you have to have committed yourself to seeing the movie to get there and that's obviously not worked well with the general public

Essentially Robbie always saw himself as a monkey, and it's part of where his demons come from

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u/tellmort-yourmove Jan 20 '25

That does help. I’ve seen Robbie in Graham Norton so I’m slightly aware of his playboy status and the first question I had was does this ape have sex with humans. That’s so weird. And gross. And I think on a different post about this movie someone said yup. Ew.

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u/FacelessBraavosi Jan 20 '25

Thankfully no-one in the movie IIRC even comments on him being an ape, in the way that e.g. obviously everyone comments on Elphaba in Wicked being green. So even in the fictional world of the movie this is just "how he sees himself" rather than "he's actually an ape"

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u/tellmort-yourmove Jan 20 '25

Even better. I wish they had tried to explain that in some way in the trailer instead of just ape sings songs.

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u/Skysflies Jan 20 '25

Yeah there's one handjob scene which is slightly odd, if you've not settled into the movie yet but with that sole exception I can't think of anything and genuinely the movie does a very good job if you let it at making you forget it's a monkey

Like I didn't even think about it pretty much after the first 5 mins

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u/PopCultureWeekly Jan 19 '25

That’s being a bit disingenuous with his level of fame in the UK. Besides being one of the biggest selling artists of all time there, in 2022 he broke the record for having the most #1 albums with his latest release.

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u/Optimism_Deficit Jan 19 '25

I had a quick Google, and the only thing I think he released in 2022 was a 'greatest hits' style compilation album that was primarily tracks from the late 90s and early 00s, which is when I asserted that his career had peaked. I feel that actually kind of supports my point.

I'm not saying he doesn't have his fans, and I'm not saying that he's not been very successful, but he's not as popular as he once was.

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u/PopCultureWeekly Jan 20 '25

The album was a new recording of him doing a bunch of his hits, so sort of.

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u/fayemoonlight Jan 19 '25

That’s more to do with him having a bunch of diehard fans who loved him in his glory days. As a woman in her mid-20’s, he hasn’t got any appeal to me whatsoever. I just find him annoying and many of my peers feel the same way. His songs just don’t hold up well. They’re mediocre and he hasn’t got anything else to offer

1

u/_lippykid Jan 20 '25

Beating Elvis Fucking Presley!

3

u/i_sesh_better Jan 20 '25

I’d seen a few ads for this movie, seen people mention Robbie Williams’s music being in the movie, but had absolutely no idea it was about him.

I thought this was a kids movie in adult style like Sing, I thought it was just about a singing monkey. How didn’t they get the biographical part over to me haha?

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u/CoreyH2P Jan 20 '25

An American comp I’ve kinda thought about is Alanis Morisette. Was huge a few decades ago, still around (she performed on our big New Years Eve show this year), but not a big enough star to get people to care about a biopic.