Specific neurons that secrete oxytocin in the brain are disrupted in a mouse model of autism, neuroscientists have found. Stimulating these neurons restored social behaviors in these mice. These findings could help to develop new ways to treat autism.

[u/mvea]

https://www.riken.jp/en/news_pubs/research_news/rr/20250207_1/index.html

[u/bigasssuperstar]

Scientists' presumptions that what looks like autism in their judgment of mouse behaviour is the same thing as what they think looks like autism in human behaviour is still stuck in the idea that what makes humans autistic can be understood from analysis of behaviour by non-autistic people.

IOW, they think they understand human autism; they think mouse autism is that, too; they think helping mouse autism will help autistic humans. But I don't believe they understand human autism at the start of that chain.

I don't question the methods they're using to test their hypotheses, but this is so many steps removed from autistic adults and what they say about their experience of the world that I don't trust it to be applicable to human autism.

[u/PlumSome3101 → u/bigasssuperstar]

Thank you for writing this. My understanding is that autistic people do not exhibit social deficits when interacting with each other. In the same way that non autistic people exhibit social deficits when interacting with a group that is predominantly autistic, autistic people have difficulty with social interactions that are not geared toward their brain type, not difficulty in general. 

It reminds me of the study that was done showing that autistic people are less likely to engage in a situation that puts others at a disadvantage. The non autistic researchers concluded that was a fault rather than looking at it as a strength. 

That said I've (diagnosed autistic) always felt like I didn't experience oxytocin in the same way as others. However just because I don't feel like oxytocin works the same for me doesn't mean the way I bond or interact socially is wrong. It's just different. 

[u/gerryflap → u/PlumSome3101]

As a diagnosed autisc person, I wouldn't necessarily say that "autistic people don't exhibit social deficits when interacting with each other". Personally I can get along better with some autistic people, but can also get way more annoyed by some autistic people than by neurotipical people. I notice that I notice missing social behaviours that I've trained into myself more in other autistic people. This makes me struggle to interact with them since the same mechanism that trained me also tries desperately to train them. 

Additionally I'm also quite argumentative, like many other autistic people (I'm working on it). This is fine when I agree with other autistic people, but it can in some cases also lead to way more conflict than I usually have with neurotipical people. Personally I'm not so sure that I overall get along better with autistic people than neurotipical people. At work I have a lot of autistic people like me, which makes communication easier. But I've also experienced the other way around plenty of times, when our autistic traits repelled eachother like magnetic poles.

[u/PlumSome3101 → u/gerryflap]

This is a really interesting reply and I appreciate it. I think it's worth noting that autistic or not we're all formed by socialization and individual personalities. Some of that socialization includes cultural and gendered expectations. Sometimes I get along with non autistic people better too because I've masked for so long and been socialized to not cause conflict that it bothers me to be around someone who is really creating it. But that said when talking about social differences it's usually things like eye contact, expectation of reading nonverbal cues, small talk, unwritten social rules (my very least favorite!), making groups of friends instead of being mostly interested in individual activities, etc that are considered socially difficult for autistic people and seen as deficits if that makes sense. The research doesn't show autistic people getting along better it just shows their communication style/social skills are not a deficit when interacting with each other. And as a fellow arguer I've long wondered what a world that was socialized to autistic social strengths would look like. Maybe it would account for a bunch of us being argumentative with very obvious well verbalized social rules around it. Or maybe we'd all just grump at each other idk. 

[u/Solwake- → u/gerryflap]

Yes, exactly. Autistic people are also social individuals who are still responsible for their own actions and choices, i.e. autistic people can be assholes too. If what we call autism were instead the population norm rather than a minority, there would still be "good people", "bad people", "annoying people", etc. within whatever social norms would be established in that alternate reality.

[u/Bac2Zac → u/PlumSome3101]

(also autistic speaking)

Okay so I'm going to challenge you slightly to consider how this

However just because I don't feel like oxytocin works the same for me doesn't mean the way I bond or interact socially is wrong.

And the notion that a "autism cure" could be a good thing are not mutually exclusive concepts.

The objective purpose of social skills is to connect/communicate with other human beings. If an adjustment to social activity can be performed (via drug, "discovery of a new social queues" which autistics should resonate with, therapy, ect.) that allows people to either connect with more people or build stronger connections with the people they know, that is objectively a good thing.

Things being different is not inherently bad, and the ability to communicate with people who are unable to communicate effectively with neurotypical people is objectively good. Diversity of opinion is also objectively a good thing, and as a high functioning autistic person myself, the idea of a "cure" is not something that I have any vested interest in taking should it become available. I however, am not generally at a significant disadvantage when interacting with the world like some others are and to deny that a solution for that condition could be beneficial is silly to me.

[u/PlumSome3101 → u/Bac2Zac]

I think this is very valid and I'd like to clarify that I'm not saying working toward better integration for those who want/need it or researching for those have significant disabilities or delays is a bad thing. My point is that the overall conclusion that ALL autistic people have communication issues is based on assumptions of almost exclusively non autistic people comparing our brains to theirs. It's also why we have now disproven assumptions like autistic people have no empathy or have no theory of mind. It's hard to reach accurate conclusions when there's significant or even slight bias. Whether that's the case here or not I don't know. The definition of autism has changed so much in the last decade and varies by country and institution. I'm actually really curious which social deficits are present in the mice and why they specifically associate that with an autism model. I'm definitely going to go look it up. 

As for finding something cool that helps mitigate social struggles heck yes I think anyone who suffers or who has a child who suffers should have as many options and as much research for quality of life as possible. 

[u/bielgio → u/Bac2Zac]

Babies don't choose, there are people willing to choose the skin color, hair color and eye color of their babies, they'd for sure choose their neurotype and it's unlikely to be autistic

[u/Bac2Zac → u/bielgio]

I don't feel like you read all of what I wrote.

[u/bigasssuperstar → u/PlumSome3101]

Oh, I'm as intrigued as anyone about learning why we don't get the "YEAH!" reward neurotypical folks do from a lot of things - whether it's signaled and we don't feel it, felt but attenuated, felt but overridden, redirected to an unpleasant sensation or what. I'm not confident that these drugged mice are the path to unravelling that.