Monthly Discussion Thread

[u/AutoModerator]

This thread is intended to fill a function similar to that of the Open Threads on SSC proper: a collection of discussion topics, links, and questions too small to merit their own threads. While it is intended for a wide range of conversation, please follow the community guidelines. In particular, avoid culture war–adjacent topics.

[u/ExtropianX]

How do you feel about the idea of 2 year university degrees?

In Europe most Bachelor's last 3 years, with typically 18-22 modules required.

I don't see how it can't get down to 2 years with 16 modules (so 4 per semester), especially if the degree examiners-awarders are independent international institutions and you are free to choose the professor for each module (so better incentive mechanisms for the universities too). 

In other words, it'd require universities to give out their signaling) power to 3-4 large independent institutions, so situations like "donate a few millions to get accepted to Yale through the back door", or "pay that mediocre professor's salary because you can't choose a competent one from another Uni" go out of the window.

With the way AI is moving and universities' tuition costs being so high, it seems like a viable solution.

[u/callmejay → u/ExtropianX]

There's too much to unpack here. What problem are you trying to solve? Obviously, the financial burden has become unwieldy to say the least, but we used to have four-year degrees that you could almost cover with summer jobs. If we are trying to simply reduce costs, is this the best we can do?

At first blush, the obvious problem is that you are reducing university degrees to being able to pass (or excel at) exams and assignments. If so, why 2 years? Why modules? Why not just let people learn however they want to and take the exams and do the assignments as fast as they are able to?

This is a perfect example of Goodhart's Law.

Isn't education supposed to bring about a whole host of beneficial developments other than simply learning the material well enough to do well on tests and exams? Done right, it allows for a development of the intellect and a broadening of the mind that can't easily be tested for and many students would really miss out on that extra time spent with professors and other students going through the processes.

There's also the social development that can happen. Spending 4 years getting to know people with different backgrounds, forming bonds that can last a lifetime, developing interpersonal skills, broadening their worldviews, trying on different identities, joining groups, etc.

Obviously I'm describing something of an idealized college experience, but isn't that really what the elite schools are selling? People want to go to Harvard and Yale for the experience, not just the credential or the network.

[u/ExtropianX → u/callmejay]

If we are trying to simply reduce costs, is this the best we can do?

Trying to reduce costs and improve universities' produced services. If you have any alternative suggestions, I'm all ears.

Why modules? 

AFAIK that's the way you earn your degree in Europe, you have to pass a certain amount of core and optional modules.

Why not just let people learn however they want to and take the exams and do the assignments as fast as they are able to?

In many ways that's the plan, with less modules. For example if 16 modules are enough to earn a degree, are 4 years really needed?

Isn't education supposed to bring about a whole host of beneficial developments other than simply learning the material well enough to do well on tests and exams? Done right, it allows for a development of the intellect and a broadening of the mind that can't easily be tested for and many students would really miss out on that extra time spent with professors and other students going through the processes.

How are we supposed to measure the quality of education (1), the broadening of the mind (2) and the development of the intellect (3) though? We don't have an independent metric through which we can evaluate what students have learnt and neither for the other 2. The independent institutions which would provide the exams and award the degrees would reveal if students learn and how well, since the professor of each University wouldn't create the exam questions. Maybe IQ / pattern recognition tests for (2) and (3) at the start and at the end of the undergraduate studies could be useful.

There's also the social development that can happen. Spending 4 years getting to know people with different backgrounds, forming bonds that can last a lifetime, developing interpersonal skills, broadening their worldviews, trying on different identities, joining groups, etc.

That happens in the workplace too. Don't forget, with the system that I'm proposing those 4 years you're referring to are 2 years less getting to know people with different backgrounds, forming bonds that can last a lifetime, developing interpersonal skills, broadening their worldviews, trying on different identities, joining groups, etc. in the workplace. 

At least in the workplace you gain wealth, not lose, plus I haven't seen any real difference of 3 year Bachelor's degrees' graduates in any way (productivity, skills, critical thinking, openness to new ideas) from Western Europe. I don't understand how going from 3 years to 2 will in any way harm any of those qualities especially if we can monitor the level of knowledge gained through those independent institutions.

Obviously I'm describing something of an idealized college experience, but isn't that really what the elite schools are selling? People want to go to Harvard and Yale for the experience, not just the credential or the network.

Some yes, but in reality the value in these cases comes from the signalling they offer. Ask the typical HS applicant if they would rather spend 4 years getting the Yale education/experience without the degree (a) or 4 years without the education/experience but with the degree (b). Most would pick (b).

If there are 3-4 international institutions running the exams and awarding the degrees, that signalling power of the universities goes away, creating a clearer incentive structure.