r/slaythespire • u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker • Feb 12 '25
META Silent Card Tier List... with a Twist!
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u/Medievalhorde Feb 12 '25
Real talk, does anyone take choke consistently? Unless I already have a very heavy shank deck, I never take it. If it had a 1 energy cost it would be so much easier to justify, but also too strong, idk.
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u/sardaukarma Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
consistently? no way
i put choke in the same category as Thousand Cuts and Grand Finale - its a way to take a deck that has very low output but is good at spinning its wheels and convert that wheel spinning into damage
not the worst early game pick either and gives you extra value from blade dance / cloak & dagger / prepared
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u/BubbaTheGoat Ascension 20 Feb 13 '25
It’s actually an excellent pick for today’s daily climb! But you also get to pick your first 10 cards out of a lineup, so you’re starting prebuilt
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
It's too expensive to be great, but it has something the other mediocre attacks don't have: It is dense.
So if you have f.e. an energy potion you can click it and deal a good chunk to the Nob, maybe avoiding having to pick up a Quick Slash over a Backflip for example.
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u/nsg337 Ascension 20 Feb 12 '25
hey sorry, unrelated but what does your flair, heartbreaker mean?
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u/aheftyhippo Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
It means they’ve beaten Act 4 with all 4 characters on A20.
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Feb 12 '25
[deleted]
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u/nsg337 Ascension 20 Feb 12 '25
cool thanks :)
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
Deleted the comment because of the spoiler, but now you know :-)
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u/Halliron Feb 12 '25
If one of my first two card pics are choke skill skill I'm taking the choke
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u/scoobydoom2 Eternal One + Ascended Feb 13 '25
Sees Choke, Blade Dance, and Terror. Picks Choke.
Joking obviously, but just because a card is a skill doesn't mean its bad early. Choke is of course better than skip but there's a lot of skills I'll take it over floor 1 or 2.
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u/SalmonAT Feb 12 '25
Had a run with necro book with a shiv deck. Picked choke+ and enemy dont live too long
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u/munderbunny Feb 12 '25
If I take the card in act 1, that's like the only place I end up using it. By end of act 2, I usually end up never playing it, even when I have more synergy cards.
I think the upgrade should reduce the cost to 1, instead of increasing the HP loss.
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u/Belderchal Ascended Feb 13 '25
the HP loss makes it so much more satisfying when it works though, even if it'd be a better card at lower cost
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u/JhAsh08 Ascension 20 Feb 12 '25
Obviously, there are some scenarios where Choke works well with your deck.
However, as an early, blind pick, I still think it’s a somewhat better than passable option for damage in act 1. Imd rather take a blind Skewer over a blind Choke, obviously. But it’s still at least 15 damage for 2 energy and 1 card draw. Sometimes, that’s simply what you need to kill elites. Once you have an early Choke, it’s often possible to build the early-midgame deck around it to make it shine.
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u/whystudywhensleep Feb 12 '25
I’ll take it fairly often early act one when offered, it’s a pretty decent act 1 damage source for elites when you don’t get many other options. But other than that, never. It’s not a mid or late game card, but it can be the answer to some early combats
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u/lar_yeet Ascension 14 Feb 13 '25
choke for sure has won me a run or two before but for each time i've won with it i've had 2 runs that got ruined partially because of it
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u/Nolalegokid Feb 13 '25
Choke is one of my favorite cards. Choke plus Bladedance + does 40 dmg before any additional relics or upgrades. Boot brings that to a solid 52.
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u/Aggressive-Seat-5879 Feb 13 '25
I think it kills your deck if you take it too early. You need your enablers first like 0 cost cards or shivs to justify picking it up
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u/Username69221 Feb 12 '25
i need to know what the twist is before i go crazy for that dagger spray ranking
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u/halo364 Feb 12 '25
Right??? OP did dagger spray dirty lol
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u/OurSocialStatus Ascension 20 Feb 12 '25
Dagger Spray is pretty awful and I'm surprised people here value it highly.
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u/SamiraSimp Ascension 19 Feb 12 '25
i wouldn't say people rate it highly...it's 1 energy for 8 damage against single targets. but it's also a common attack that gives aoe, which alone should give it probably a higher rating than op does
like seriously, does anyone think dagger spray is really worse than stuff like infinite blades and distraction?
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u/halo364 Feb 12 '25
Yeah that's what I'm saying! Obviously dagger spray isn't an S-tier card or anything, but it's cheap AoE for a character that otherwise has precious few AoE options. Late in the game it's eh (although I love it for the birds or gremlins) but I find myself taking it much more often than a lot of the other cards ranked above it. Basically on this graph I'd have it just below the X-axis I think.
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u/HowDoIEvenEnglish Feb 14 '25
Agreed. Dagger spray should be a near instant take if you have no AoE in act1. It can save you so much against five slimes or goblin gang
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u/n00dle_king Ascension 20 Feb 12 '25
It's consistently great in Act 1, and close to a never pick after that. Filling that niche makes it better than a lot of cards ranked above it on this list.
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u/scoobydoom2 Eternal One + Ascended Feb 13 '25
It can be decent past that, just silent has relatively few ways to scale it. It's still among the best cards to have vs byrds though, and if you do manage to get some form of strength, whether that's shuriken, girya, or something else, it's pretty slick. Also pairs well with envenom, though envenom is usually only good in weird decks.
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u/juany8 Feb 13 '25
Dagger spray is a perfectly solid act 1 pick that scales decently with strength. It’s not an awful card even if it’s something that you’d rarely pick past act 1.
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u/PablovirusSTS Feb 13 '25
Except it's not? It's a great attack to have in Act 1, quite decent in Act 2, and very useful against Reptomancer in Act 3.
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u/WeenisWrinkle Feb 12 '25 edited Feb 13 '25
The more I play Silent the less I like Dagger Spray. It's so little AoE damage that I'd rather just rather take single target damage cards and hope I run across a Die Die Die or an All Out Attack.
By late Act 2 it's a straight up curse.
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u/Terminal_Ten Heartbreaker Feb 13 '25
All out atk is even worse long term though
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u/WeenisWrinkle Feb 13 '25
They're both pretty crappy long-term, but at least All Out Attack has some discard synergy. And does more damage early on.
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u/Terminal_Ten Heartbreaker Feb 13 '25
Aoa's discard synergy is fake though. Unless you are confident that it would never hit your Sneaky Strike or Eviscrate
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u/WeenisWrinkle Feb 13 '25 edited Feb 13 '25
You're never confident, but usually when I play it it's 25% chance or less.
Don't get me wrong, it's usually getting discarded. But at least it can do something for your deck in late acts.
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u/Belderchal Ascended Feb 13 '25
Act 2 has a lot of multi enemy fights though, including birds where multihit matters more. At +4 damage output per enemy on the upgrade, it's a good upgrade target if your other key cards are upgraded and you're looking for more damage
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u/WeenisWrinkle Feb 13 '25 edited Feb 13 '25
Early Act 2 hallways like Shelled Parasite/Chosen are more dangerous than multi enemies like Byrds, IMHO. If you don't have big enough burst damage for Shelled Parasite, you could be in trouble.
You can use Piercing Wail or weaken cards to neuter multi-hit enemies. Dagger Spray is helpful, but not run-saving.
If I'm playing Ironclad or Defect, I am terrified of Byrds. But on the Silent, I don't mind them. She has really effective cards against multi-attack enemies. It's the only character I smash Philosopher's Stone when offered.
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u/peepopogwide Feb 12 '25
I like the concept! Going further, I think separating it by act would be an easy improvement to the discussion it offers. As it is now, it can be a little confusing and melded together, sitting at a sort of in between in both the scales of analysis and ease of digest.
E.g. an amalgamation of in depth individual card discussions by top players would be most informative, but hard to stomach. Whereas tier lists are easy and light starting points for discussion, but don’t offer much meat themselves. I think separating your format by act would improve the depth a lot more than it would harm the ease of digest.
And just for funsies, on my opinion on your actual picks: CE too far right and a little too up, pwail and acro could both go further right and up, acro in particular. Escape plan a bit too far to the right, while deflect and burst too far left. Those are the main ones that stood out on first glance but I think it’s a solid shot overall
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25 edited Feb 13 '25
Thank you for your constructive and thorough feedback. I might do one list for early and one for late game.
I would love to see players come together and talk about the game - that is content we don't have currently. Jorbs used to do it in his Spire Chat but those videos are quite old now.
Thinking about it, I can agree with all of your opinions. As soon as I posted this I knew Escape plan and Acro were misplaced.
Edit: Updated version of the tier list posted here
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u/Careful-Mouse-7429 Feb 14 '25
Ngl, I opened that link specifically to see if you had moved dagger spray to like the best card in the game territory.
Missed opportunity lmao
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u/TheMausoleumOfHope Ascension 20 Feb 12 '25
In what world is Grand Finale at the top of the quality axis and dagger spray/poisoned stab are at the bottom?
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u/Hablapata Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
surely you’re joking
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u/TheMausoleumOfHope Ascension 20 Feb 12 '25
Nope not joking at all. Dagger Spray is a useful card in both Act 1 and 2. Is the only metric by which you rate a card how often you play it in later boss fights?
If a card helped you through Act 1 and early Act 2 and then isn’t used much in the Act 3 boss fight, does that make it a low quality card? I would argue no, and that any any metric that does have that result is a bad metric.
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
If Grande Finale is picked (which is not often), it contributes a lot.
Poison Stab is picked in Act 1 to kill Elites, and it is flexible in a way that it both physical and poison damage. But it does not do that much other than that?
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u/TheMausoleumOfHope Ascension 20 Feb 12 '25
So you’re conditionalizing the card quality axis to only include instances where you actually pick the card?
Really odd way to do it
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
Why not? Is this not a more accurate description of what actually happens?
Clearly this list is heavily dependent on my playstyle - but it embraces that fact and makes it explicit instead of keeping it implicit.
The ranking of Grand Finale says: "I don't pick this Card often, but when I do, it performs in a big way."
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u/Mini_Boss_Tank Feb 12 '25
does nothing but kill act 1 elites on the character that struggles most against act 1 elites, yes
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 13 '25
It is below average at that but yeah it helps. And then is pretty bad afterwards.
Again: I pick this Card if I have to but that is it - it offers zero prospects and needs an upgrade which is why it's a bad card
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u/HeadEvidence9569 Feb 12 '25
Bane, quick slash, flying knee, poisoned stab, and Dagger spray at the bottom, have fun dying to gremlin nob
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u/ShockinglyAccurate Feb 12 '25
But how can I die when I picked Dodge and Roll to block for TWO turns?
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u/Gainsbraah Feb 12 '25
All cards that you wouldn’t really take past Act 1, so that’s a 33% pick rate maximum even if taken every time you saw them in Act 1. Assuming the Y Axis is 50% pick rate, OP is about on the money
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u/LIKES_SPECTATING Ascended Feb 12 '25
You’re assuming every run makes it to act 3. Every run will experience act 1, which is why it’s unfair to consider it 1/3 of the game.
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u/Injured-Ginger Feb 13 '25
And if you always die act 1 because you're picking for act 3 from your first combat, then those cards don't matter.
Let me put it this way, if there was a card that says "Kill Act 1 Boss", and Act 1 bosses were otherwise immune to damage, that card would be S tier because you can't win without it even though it sucks after Act 1.
Isn't that the whole point of the graph anyways to compare pick rate and tier? You can have a high tier card that also has a low pick rate because you won't pick it after Act 1. The problem is OP placed these as low tier, not just low pick rate.
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u/WeenisWrinkle Feb 12 '25
I almost never take Bane, Dagger Spray, or Quick Slash Act 1 and I don't have issues with Nob.
I definitely don't pass up on PStab though.
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u/_CMDR_ Ascension 20 Feb 12 '25
Poison stab is way better than the rest of those and makes bane actually half decent.
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u/papapalporders66 Feb 12 '25
Right? Bane being way at the bottom is crazy. With poison decks, that’s a 1 energy 14/20 damage card.
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u/slopschili Ascension 20 Feb 12 '25
Bane might be Silent's worst damage common.
"With poison decks, that’s a 1 energy 14/20 damage card."
If you draw it after you have poison in play sure. If you draw it before or on the same turn (and can't play both) then it's really bad. Or if you can't put poison on an enemy because of artifact it's bad
It's solid in longer fights I guess, but long poison fights don't really need more damage
It does go crazy with [[twisted funnel]] though
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u/spirescan-bot Feb 12 '25
Twisted Funnel Shop (Silent only) Relic (100% sure)
At the start of each combat, apply 4 Poison to ALL enemies.
Call me with up to 10 [[ name ]], where name is a card, relic, event, or potion. Data accurate as of April 20, 2024. Wiki Questions?
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
Should probably be a little higher.
1 energy deal 20 is good BUT I don't pick Poison early a lot and it is not good late game poison deck or not. Also even if you have poison you can still draw Bane before poison and then it's a Strike. I prefer more consistent options which don't get me chipped in Hallways.
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u/ZealousidealLead52 Feb 12 '25
Eh.. to be fair, poison decks don't really care about direct damage. They aren't really going to end fights with direct damage, so they're either winning fights slowly over time (in which case basically any source of poison will deal more damage than it), or they're using catalyst to get exponential damage (and you still pretty much only care about the poison counter).
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u/WelfareK1ng Feb 12 '25
Plus with vulnerable, you can have a card doing 30 damage for 1 energy. I think it’s a great card
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u/Dinosaurs-Cant-win Feb 13 '25
I don't think you are reading the graph properly. This is a darn good tier list for someone clearly playing at A20. Those cards are ok in quality because they serve basically that one purpose, beating nob and act 1 boss/elites. They help with act 1 and then generally don't get picked, so why would they be abive 50% pick rate or higher quality?
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u/slopschili Ascension 20 Feb 12 '25
OP I love this, love the discussion it's created, and generally agree with where you put things
Also really shows the discrepancy of Silent's rare cards. Some are so damn good and others are abosolute garbage most of the time
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25 edited Feb 13 '25
Then I can't be all wrong :) The discussions are definitely crazy, I was not ready!
Silent Rares are really cool in total. And unlike Watcher more than 2 of them are really good!
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u/Faschquez Feb 12 '25
so.... top right are cards you always take, Bottom left are cards you never take, top left are fully situational sometimes spectacular cards and bottom right (if you had any) would be cards that aren't good but you take all the time anyway?
AVG quality would be how good they are in any deck vs avg pick rate is how often you pick them?
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25 edited Feb 13 '25
Avg. Card Quality = how much a card contributes to a winning deck
Avg. Pick Rate = how often this card is good to pick, factoring in rarity and opportunity costs for rare cards
I think this two-dimensional format is much more fitting for this game, it lets you compare often-useful slightly positive Cards like Backflip to niche but powerful cards like Catalyst.
The list is not perfectly accurate, more like a proof of concept.
I would love to see some other folks make rankings of this format!
Edit: Updated version of the tier list posted here
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u/neutrallyocean1 Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
This is great. Too many times I’ve seen people arguing about what the best card is but they don’t realize they are each evaluating along two different dimensions—most pickable (ie. Adrenaline) vs most conditionally powerful (ie. Wraith Form), and just arguing past each other.
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
Exactly! Seeing Adrenaline at the top of many Silent Tier Lists is what motivated me to do this.
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u/Varron Feb 12 '25
Does it factor in necessity?
a lot of lost runs will have dagger spray or other low quality cards because they are needed early, and vice versa, you'll hardly ever pick Catalyst floor one, but when you can pick it, it'll clearly contribute heavily to the win, but only because those early filler cards let you build to it.
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
Yes. But Cards which are only good in Act 1 can only have a pick rate that high.
This ranking is dependent on my playstyle, and I (hope to think) I pick Cards in a reasonable way. If I am lacking damage and the Elite is coming I will click Dagger Spray, this is why it has a high pick rate even though I would like to not have it in my deck 5 floors later most of the time. I will not ever pick Catalyst in Act 1 without other Poison or if I think it will get me killed.
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u/Warpborne Feb 12 '25
Does the list have data behind it or is it an opinion to show the format?
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
It's *my opinion*, how I currently feel.
Yes, the main point of this post was to show the format, perhaps I should have made that clearer.
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u/Ok-Independent939 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
Very cool format. I’m not sure why people don’t understand your damage common rankings. They’re not good cards. You should try to get out of act 1 having taken as few of them as possible.
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
Exactly what I'm thinking.
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u/vegetablebread Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 13 '25
I understand that this is your way of thinking. I want to try and convince you that this is the wrong way to think about the game.
You aren't building a deck to fight act three on floor one. You're trying to build a deck that can kill gremlin nob. The "quality" metric of cards you see on floor one should be a measurement of how effective they are at solving the problem you actually have right now.
Of course, if you followed that line of reasoning, and picked cards based on that metric without bias, your cards would all fall on the y=x line. But then this would just be a normal tier list of "how frequently it's a good idea to pick this card".
Since that isn't what you've shown, then you're saying you do have a bias towards some cards. But like, why would you try to make a chart that measures your own bias? If you're consistently evaluating a card wrong, shouldn't you just reevaluate that card?
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u/Ok-Independent939 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 13 '25
There’s a great book about someone who goes insane trying to define the word “quality” (Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance), so it’s safe to assume that people have different ideas of what makes a card high or low quality.
The way I think about it is how much a card helps, on average, throughout the run. Damage commons are typically not cards that you want towards the back half of a run, but they are cards that you want at the start. You don’t need many of them, and op rated some of them pretty decently (Sneaky Strike, Dagger Throw, Sucker Punch). These are the ones that actually do things past Act 1. I personally value Dagger Spray higher than op because of Slimbo, but I’m not going to pretend it’s a great card just because it helps in Act 1. While getting through Act 1 is essential to winning, the damage common that you draft is not a significant inflection point. Taking a Slice instead of Sneaky Strike or a Flying Knee instead of Dagger Throw is not going to make or break your run. Overvaluing these cards and taking too many of them will kill you in Act 4 though.
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u/Mini_Boss_Tank Feb 12 '25
Often times you won't make it out of act 1 if you don't take at least a decent number of damage commons
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u/SalmonAT Feb 12 '25
I always take Catalyst act1 becoz it opens up poison for me. Worst case it is a 1 cost exaustable curse with no down size
And I will always take Corpse explosion becoz it scale infinitely with enemy health in multi enemies fight
I ussually try to build poison unless some kunai or suriken drop. I died too much vs nob. How can I improve?
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u/Hablapata Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
start using poison to supplement your damage, not to substitute for it. one or two poison cards (CE is best ofc) + a catalyst is enough. don’t hyperfixate on it, and abandon the burst-catalyst dream unless it falls into your lap.
saying that you need a rare relic to pull you away from poison says everything. go win a bunch without ever touching poison, then come back.
don’t fight nob without attacks and especially potions.
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
Try to deviate from poison if the Cards do not fit your needs - pick attacks to kill the Nob :-)
Would not recommend clicking every Catalyst but it is definitely a playstyle ^^
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u/neutrallyocean1 Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
This is 100% the right way to evaluate cards—not saying the placements are perfect but rather that this should be the standard framework.
Normal tier lists don’t show the difference between a card which is conditionally super strong vs an average solid pick, which is a very important distinction!
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
Thank you very much! This is more a proof of concept and not 100% accurate, glad you liked the format!
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u/Hot_Philosopher_6462 Feb 13 '25
The upper left corner is the most interesting part of the space for me — the cards that you don’t usually want to take, but when you do, it’s because you can put them to work.
(The bottom right corner is also interesting, but it probably says good things about you that there’s nothing there.)
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u/ZealousidealLead52 Feb 13 '25
Well.. it only says that they believe that their choices are correct - nobody would ever put cards there in their own tier lists. They still make mistakes, they just don't realize that they're mistakes, and those mistakes are also reflected in the tier list just as much as in their decision making.
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 16 '25
Yes! The upper left corner are all payoff cards for certain deck types unable to work without proper support.
Grand Finale for draw manipulation, Catalyst for Poison, Accuracy for shivs, Tactician for Discard.I love all of them since they give direction to decks. If they didn't exist, decks would often only be as good as their individual pieces.
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u/MrDinosaurjeff Ascension 20 Feb 12 '25
Is posion stab bad? I've been picking it loads. But silent is defo my worst character
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
It's a versitile early-game card with a decent upgrade!
But it falls of after Act 1, so I can't quite put it too high.
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u/Hablapata Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
it’s in the ‘i’m about to die to this elite if i don’t take this’ bucket with quick slash, dagger spray, etc. necessary but bad if that makes sense
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u/foodbard12 Feb 13 '25
I think its perfectly average. It's not going to do anything by itself in the later acts but it is "reasonable" front loaded damage for the energy and can help with poison stacking or artifact stripping. not quite as useful as dagger throw in general but closer than this chart implies IMO. Practically speaking you often end up with copies of cards like this in your deck to get through the first act. So I can't imagine the pick rate being that low in practice. If I see a poison stab on floor 1 and its the best damage option I'm clicking no regrets.
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u/Tachyon_Speed Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
The envenom bothers me. A lot.
Why isn't setup lower too...
And doppelganger's pick rate is higher than accuracy?
Why do you pick infinite blades so much, you know it's shit.
I think i can understand the argument as to why tactician is ranked higher than reflex, since you pick it in more specific scenarios and as such it contributes more overall to the win condition. But then why isn't concentrate higher?
My main takeaway from your comments so far is that you put a higher price than I do on upgrades (hence the dagger spray ranking). But then again, flechettes and skewer are so high, im confused.
Love the list, super interesting.
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
Thank you for your constructive critique, happy you liked the format!
I definitely rate upgrades high and value Cards higher if they have a really good upgrade (e.g. Tactician, Acro) or don't need an upgrade (e.g. Piercing Wail). I rate them lower if I feel like they are bad without the upgrade (e.g. Envenom, Dagger Spray, Concentrate) or they fall of later (e.g. Dagger Spray)
Envenom is a little slow for my taste, but if you need damage, you should take it! Concentrate can be really nice, but it can be hard to make work without retain - Tactician is just really good if you have a lot of discard, but reflex is easier to take. Flechettes is a damage Card that can be good even late game. Skewer is very worth the upgrade because it scales with energy, also it is a very flexible and dense card (one Skewer+ and a good potion can solve the Nob).
Hope it makes more sense now :-)
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u/ZealousidealLead52 Feb 13 '25
Envenom is honestly quite weak. Poison decks don't really use attacks very much, so it's only really used in shiv decks where you never got the option of taking accuracy. I once had a run where I won by using envenom for scaling because I got Kunai early and started picking a bunch of shiv cards to make use of it, but never got the option for anything that increased my damage output so I had to settle for envenom.. but I 100% would have preferred having accuracy in that deck, it was only the pick because I didn't have any real choice.
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u/OurSocialStatus Ascension 20 Feb 12 '25
Actually the best tier list I've seen on reddit and not a ton of things I would change. Fumes is imo slightly low and backstab pick rate should be slightly higher. I'm assuming the BS pick rate is low because it's innate but double backstab is still quite considerable and great all the way through act 2.
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
Thank you, I'm happy you liked the format!
Good point with the Backstab, it is good and so is the second copy. Probably I would nerf Escape Plan pick rate, CE's quality and furthermore buff the quality of Acro.
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u/ProShyGuy Ascension 14 Feb 12 '25
I think the two best metrics to judge cards on are pick rate and win rate.
A card with a low pick rate but a high win rate is a very powerful but situational card. Barricade is the best example I can think of. If you're picking Barricade, it's because you have a deck that works well with Barricade (or you yolo'd it Act 1 because why not).
Something like Pommel Strike would have much higher pick rate than Barricade but likely a much lower win rate because it's not super powerful, but is reliable.
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
Would be nice and simple if it were the case but I disagree. Win rate does not reflect how much something contributes very well. There are things that you take more when you are strong or when you are weak - this skews the picture.
If you don't believe me - just look at the stats of top players and you will see the most random Cards at the top. It can be an indicator but it's too inaccurate imo.
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u/Romain672 Ascension 20 Feb 12 '25 edited Feb 12 '25
Those metrics are good. But if a card seem good, but is in reality bad, the pick rate will be high. So you need to be very careful when analysing it.
I think (it has been years, so I could be really wrong) Jorbs was saying in one of his videos that a great way to check is to check the winrate of a run after a card is proposed.
If one card said 'when picked win the run instantly 20% of the time and lose it 80% of the time', then assuming your winrate is more than 40%, that card would be pretty bad and rarely picked. But when you pick it, you can convert a lost run into a win. So your pickrate metric would be low (like 12%), the winrate when picked would be 20%. But the proposed winrate if your average winrate is 80%, would be (assuming that you never pick it on a winning run)(0.8*1+0.08*0+0.12*0.2=)82.4%. That card which is rarely picked still increase your overall winrate by a large margin (2.4%, so 12% in percentage) with a 20% winrate. That's an extreme example though.
edit: an example of that situation would be having a lost run, and take a bad card hoping for something really rare with it. It could be Meteor and hoping for exactly Snecko after that. So pickrate low, winrate low, and proposed winrate high.
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
You can collect info out of the data, but you have to be very careful - definitely not something to show to new players.
The biggest issue I see is actually collecting the data. You'd need a huge number of samples, considering all the variance this game has.
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u/imtheQWOP Feb 12 '25
Cool format for the list! We also have a rather similar opinions on silent with the exception of escape plan.
Can you explain when and why you are picking it up? I avoid it in act1 because of nob. Then in act3 i tend to skip it unless I have mega dexterity due to how it can be actively detrimental in time eater / heart.
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
Glad you liked it! Escape Plan should be further to the left tbh, my mistake.
It feels like it is just slightly positive so I often pick it, but yeah it can be negative in Chosen, Time Eater and the Gremlin Nob.
I would encourage you to still pick it from time to time and find different solutions for these fights, like Potions for Nob or Malaise for Time Eater.
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u/Plain_Bread Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
I think the one I disagree most with is Storm of Steel. I would put it way higher than that. And probably a bit to the left, because I don't think I've voluntarily taken one in a single one of my last ~300 Silent runs that didn't have Dead Branch. But it's pretty good with Dead Branch.
Although I do suppose I would sometimes take it with Tough Bandages, and that does feel like an okay-ish card.
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u/MTaur Feb 13 '25
Tricky graph, correlation vs causation issue... Are players that good at evaluating when Catalyst is a good pick? I wonder. Because I don't feel like it's underrated. Maybe at worst, players might be pessimistic about whether they will get it to work.
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u/SpeedrunDilettante Feb 13 '25
The format is a good idea and the spread looks quite fine to me. Also it pleases me to see Adrenaline almost pushing against the right edge of the graph. If there ever was an auto-pick in StS...
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u/thode Feb 13 '25
Wow I hard disagree with this tierlist but cool way to showcase it ^^
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 13 '25
Glad you like the Format!
How about you make your own, then we can compare :)
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
I noticed that common attacks are not ranked very highly here - it does not mean I don't pick them in Act 1 but since they are not good in other parts of the run and are mostly out of lack for better options.
Maybe another ranking for just Act 1 would do these justice. Because if you are dying to Elites and Slime Boss, please click Dagger Spray over Acrobatics.
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u/This_is_Chubby_Cap Ascension 20 Feb 12 '25
it's so weird on this reddit to see if top players are here commenting or not. in this post, seems like not. this graph is cool and not far off from where I would put stuff.
youre getting a lot of unnecessary hate and also everyone likes 8 damage AOE 1 energy way too much.
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u/Binyamin12345 Feb 12 '25
Tbf it's 8 damage that double scales with strength and upgrades to 12 damage
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u/Plain_Bread Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
Dagger Spray has always been weirdly popular here, even beyond the fact that I think people overrate AoE a lot.
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u/HeadEvidence9569 Feb 12 '25
Bane, Dagger pray, flying knee, pounded stab, and dagger spray at lowest quality… have fun dying to gremlin nob
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25 edited Feb 12 '25
I mean I pick them in Act 1 out of desperation but not afterwards.
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u/Hablapata Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
taking a dogshit card purely to carry your corpse across the finish line of an act 1 elite does not make that card good just because it’s necessary
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u/OurSocialStatus Ascension 20 Feb 12 '25
All of these cards are jank and are almost always a skip outside of your easy hallway fights. One of the reasons Silent heavily relies on potions to farm A1 elites is so that you don't have to pick up too many of these cards that end up being deadweight later in your runs.
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u/wossquee Ascension 20 Feb 12 '25
I never take Wraith Form. It's one of the best cards Silent has, but I don't care about my winrate and I find playing with Wraith Form boring.
Now Dagger Spray, that's a card.
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
I can see your argument, Intangible is an inherently unbalanced mechanic and maybe should not be in the game.
But you can't deny its power - one copy of this and a duplication potion lets you win fights you have no business winning.
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u/wossquee Ascension 20 Feb 12 '25
I didn't deny its power. It wins runs almost on its own.
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u/Ghirahim_W Ascension 20 Feb 12 '25
I’d like to see your version of this for the other characters too, if you haven’t done them already.
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
Thank you! I think I will do that :-)
I should probably try to do a better job at explaining the format, I have the feeling it is being misunderstood by some people.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Image96 Feb 12 '25
Interesting formatting but would need to identify which act it is to be more accurate. Die die die and glass knife are instant picks act 1 especially in the first 10 floors whereas I typically don’t take wraith form very early because it’s benefits are limited until you can upgrade it and actually race enemies in the free turns you get
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u/Levinos1 Ascension 20 Feb 12 '25
Why does burst and blade dance have such shit pick rate for you?
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
If Blade dance is not picked in Act 1, I am significantly less likely to pick them up later as I have probably found a different damage solve. That said it's pick rate is still rather high, no?
Burst is a little niche. It doesn't do much if you don't have good targets (Catalyst, Apparition etc.).
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u/Levinos1 Ascension 20 Feb 12 '25
If Blade dance is not picked in Act 1, I am significantly less likely to pick them up later as I have probably found a different damage solve
Like what? Poison?
That said it's pick rate is still rather high, no?
Well the thing is its prolly one of silents best cards and is alot of the time an instant pick for me
Burst is a little niche. It doesn't do much if you don't have good targets (Catalyst, Apparition etc.).
It is NOT niche. It is good on many of silents skills: Acrobatics, backflip, blade dance, prepared, blur, adrenaline, alchemise, malaise, dodge and roll, pretty alright for escape plan.
These are a good amount of silents cards and you'll usually have at least one of these. Burst can even work on most block cards as well pretty alright. It is defo not a niche card
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u/Exciting_Ad_4202 Feb 13 '25
It is good on many of silents skills: Acrobatics, backflip, blade dance, prepared, blur, adrenaline, alchemise, malaise, dodge and roll, pretty alright for escape plan.
The only card in that bunch where Burst doesn't give you anti-synergy is Prepared, Blur, Adre, Alch and Dodge Roll. Using it on Acro, Backflip and BD cost you 2 energy and a bunch of hand clog, Malaise 2nd proc isnt that good because you use all your energy in the first one, and Escape Plan is kinda........meh.
The block card is also kinda bad for the fact that you are more than likely using a Rare card as a defend. That's not good value.
Still, the best card with Burst are Crippling Cloud (Quick Artifact strip), Leg Sweep (big block), Blur (2 turns of block retain) and Catalyst (famous combo). Most others are situational.
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u/OurSocialStatus Ascension 20 Feb 12 '25
I agree about burst but Shiv decks are significantly worse in A20H runs, especially without ninja relics.
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u/Exciting_Ad_4202 Feb 13 '25
Shiv deck are a lot better in A20H just because it usually what you end up with in act 1 a lot of the time.
The thing here is moreso that you also have physical discard decks that fills the same niche, and you build that type of deck in act 1 more often than Shiv deck (those Sneaky Strikes and Evis rollcage are really fun). Which makes BD a bit less competitive in that environment in act 2. Still it fits perfectly well in that type of deck since you need sth to give you Finisher some OOMPH anyways.
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u/SJ_Slam_Jam Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
I like your axes, this kind of list creates more meaningful conversations than just one vertical F-S list. I really like where grand finale is, because it perfectly captures how you rarely take it, but when you do, it's because you can use it effectively
it does still create misgivings though. if you only beat lagavulin because you took deadly poison and bane early, didn't that still "contribute to a winning deck"?
you have catalyst as one of the best cards in the class, which I agree with, but it's only good in the context of decks with poison cards that you're mostly calling mid or low tier.
idk what a fully realized tier list looks like, but it probably has a wild number of dimensions
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
I agree! The format is not perfect. And Bane should probably be a bit higher.
One dimension that is definitely not realized are upgraded Cards for example. I take almost every upgraded Prepared, but it's a bigger commitment if it doesn't come green.
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u/Fetusal Feb 12 '25
Is Bane really that lowly regarded? Obviously it's a bad floor 1 pick but with any poison source it's quite strong.
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
It can do well early game, especially if you are desperate for damage. Pick rate is justified but I think it could go a little higher.
I don't pick poison very much early because it is often too slow for the first two acts, so the condition is hard to fulfill. Even if you have poison, you can still draw it before the poison and it's basically a Strike. In the late game it is completely redundant, if you have poison Cards they deal the damage, you don't need this.
TL;DR: The condition is quite a drawback and even when it's good it's not good enough often.
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u/Dead_Iverson Feb 12 '25
Charts like this are misleading when it comes to actual play. I’m not even sure how you would define “average quality” since the closest thing you can get to determining that is win rates, but even win rates can’t tell you if a card is a good or bad draft option for your deck at the exact moment it’s offered. At their worst they get into your head and influence your choices with no context as to why any of these things are ranked on an axis.
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
Yes they can be. But it is better than a standard 1-dimensional Tier List, no?
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u/CantaloupeAcademic63 Feb 12 '25
Do I keep losing cause I think bane is good
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 12 '25
TL;DR
It should maybe be a bit higher but is still pretty bad.
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u/WeenisWrinkle Feb 13 '25
What's your reasoning for picking Escape Plan so often?
It's a card that I don't pick a lot, but I see other players take. When I take it, it's so underwhelming.
Is it because it doesn't use energy or draw, and is a free dice roll for 3 block?
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 13 '25
It is slighly positive after you are not afraid of the Nob. Who doesn't like free block? Footwork/Kunai give it prospects.
Probably too far right bc Chosen and Time eater exist.
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u/WeenisWrinkle Feb 13 '25
Yeah I guess I should start taking it more often. It's just such a low impact card that it annoys me to even have to draw and play it.
It's like a scratch off lottery ticket that costs $1 and pays back my $1 2/3 of the time and $1.05 1/3 of the time. Cool, I guess I'll waste my time with this since it's +eV but why is this even a card 🤣
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u/Exciting_Ad_4202 Feb 13 '25
The bigger thing is that it just has stiff competition in it's niche. If you want block for free then you would just take Deflect and that's a common. If you want a better Cantrip then Prepared is also there, with a VASTLY better upgrade and also a common. So because of this, it's kinda just falls out of the wayside for a lot of player.
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u/EnormousIsErratic Feb 13 '25
Poison a little under represented. envenom and bouncing flask are pretty solid
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 13 '25
I don't pick poison that much early as to me it seems too slow for Acts 1 and 2.
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u/EnormousIsErratic Feb 13 '25
Bouncing flask can help shred artifact for shiv decks that are relying on terror and is great against hexaghost and guardian. Envenom can improve zero strength shivs or for when you can’t find any accuracies.
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u/erutio Feb 13 '25
Why is catalyst so low on pick rate?
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u/MTaur Feb 13 '25
There are a lot of situations where it does little to nothing. If anything, the effectiveness might be artificially high because players are shy about picking it up just whenever. They pick it when they know it's goong to be good, and it's so impactful that they recognize it.
On the other hand, Adrenaline is always free real estate, and you are a lot more likely to pick it up in situations where you were losing regardless. It might also be so generically good that it blinds players from picking a card that they actually need more, but I think the bigger problem for win rate is that it's a generically good card you would pick in a generic run, and not the last piece of Exodia, so its inclusion is more likely to be a small boon to an otherwise average run. Catalyst is more like, I pick it because I'm solving Act 3.
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 13 '25
I don't pick poison very much early as on A20 i have the feeling that it's just too slow for Act 2 most of the time.
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u/Exciting_Ad_4202 Feb 13 '25
Because it isn't unconditional damage or scaling most of the time. You need a decent chunk of poison to capitalize on it, and you need a good draw to actually get to it. It's just slow
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u/PablovirusSTS Feb 13 '25
idk. these tier lists, and 2D plots in this case, are always too reductionist to be useful imo. Like why would Avg Quality (as you defined it) even matter for a card like Storm of Steel, which can have a huge upside in the right deck and be nigh unplayable in the wrong ones? The skill comes from noticing when your deck is building towards one of the outlier cases and picking it accordingly. Also the concept of "Average" quality is completely arbitrary. How do you measure how much a card like Unload contributed to you winning? Would you've won if Gremlin Nob dealt an extra hit to you because you didn't pick Unload vs some other card ranked higher in the previous floors? High contribution in Act 1 is as important as high contribution in Act 4...
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 13 '25
Clearly, this list can't tell you how to play the game but it can give you an overview of the options. I just think it is better than the 1 dimensional alternative.
A distinction into early game and late game seems necessary.
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u/TheHappyEater Ascension 20 Feb 13 '25
Grand finale on the same y value as corpse explosion is heresy.
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 13 '25
I pick grand finale when my deck is fast and can land it consistently. In that case, it is really good value, no?
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u/TheHappyEater Ascension 20 Feb 13 '25
Everytime I picked it up, I found it too hard to make it work. But this might be a skil issue, and I should consider it adding to the right deck and not add it too early.
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 13 '25
I would advise you to the following: For a time, only Pick it if you have either Runic Pyramid or Well Laid Plans, your Deck has less than 30 Cards and you have draw manipulation with different numbers. It can be good otherwise, but that way you can guarantee that it performs consistently.
You need to track your Draw Pile and your Draw options constantly which can be tedious, but it's worth it. With proper support (Terror, Pen Nib, PK) it can be your entire damage plan.
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u/TheHappyEater Ascension 20 Feb 13 '25
When I revisit Silent (currently busy finishing my ascention climb on Ironclad and then will start Defect and Watcher), I will keep this sound advice in mind.
With the caveat of "only pick the card when the deck can support it" I totally get the placement on your chart. Thanks for explaining, I did learn something from it.
Other cards which were at least picked more often by me and possibly also overvalued are storm of steel and choke.
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 13 '25
Happy you could take something from it! Love the Clad, hope you have a good time.
Just remember that this list is not perfect either.
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u/Any_Cut1198 Feb 13 '25
Is bane actually bad? 14 dmg for 1 energy is a bargain no? 20 if upgraded
Its must pick for me if i have noxious fume / poison dagger
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u/Any_Cut1198 Feb 13 '25
Now that i look the tierlist more through.. Op just have discard deck addiction and dont like early card in general lmao
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u/UmbraNight Feb 13 '25
Bane is very slept on and well laid plans is over rated. Good, not s tier like everyone says though unless your deck has really low draw or is really reliant on one card in which case you have bigger issues
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u/gabriot Feb 13 '25
Pretty good list I’d say. I definitely pick catalyst and burst way more than most the stuff ahead of it, same with p stab, but what can I say I’m a sucker for poison
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u/TheBroboat Feb 13 '25
You gotta try set up some more. I used to be a set up hater, but it's a surprisingly versatile card in the silent's kit. I think it's higher than average quality, I agree it's a bit low on the pick side though. It can make an early picked sneaky strike into a late game engine piece for energy production, for example. Not to mention broken nightmare lines.
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u/Themlgbros Feb 13 '25
If the frequency of your pickrate is accurate then I would imagine you dont survive act 1 very often because god damn are all damage common low on the pickrate!
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 13 '25
I pick them in Act 1 if I have to, that is about it. Dagger Spray same Pick Rate as Skewer even though it is a bad Card
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u/Klaus_Unechtname Feb 13 '25
Aww man catalyst is my absolute favorite! Also what determines card quality?
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 13 '25
Quality = How much do I think the Card contribute once it's in the deck.
Pick Rate = How often do I think the Card is good to picksince I only pick Catalyst when I have Poison already and not speculatively, it has very high impact on average.
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u/Lina__Inverse Feb 13 '25
Is there ever a reason to not take escape plan? Cycle for 0 with a potential upside is just straight up auto pick, no?
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u/Exciting_Ad_4202 Feb 13 '25
It's just underwhelming against other choices tbh.
Prepared is also a Cantrip, but gives a much better effect (Discard) and has a way better upgrade (+1 draw and +1 discard)
Deflect is just a flat 4 block with no string attached.
So you kinda get where this thing is going.
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 13 '25
Yes, it can be negative in some fights, like: Chosen, Time Eater, The Heart and Gremlin Nob. And, it loses you on information when you need to discard (because you can't see the Card below)
Still good most of the time tho
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u/ZhangXueliangspornac Ascension 17 Feb 13 '25
Adrenaline not being in the fully in the top right is a war crime
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 13 '25
That is intentional. You can't convince me it is as impactful as a Wraith Form or a Alchemize.
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u/Tristan_Cleveland Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 13 '25
Putting anything below distraction is pretty mean to those cards.
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 13 '25
Distraction works with Letter opener, burst, and Flechettes! Also it can high roll.
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u/Rappster64 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 13 '25
I really like this approach to thinking about cards - only change i would make to the scale is that I'd label the Y axis impact, rather than quality.
as for the actual picks, i disagree a bit about a lot of the cards you put in the low pick rate quadrant (esp. skewer, and deadly poison), but silent is also my worst character (like a 5% winrate for A20H), so I'm certainly fallible.
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u/Emotional_Goose7835 Feb 14 '25
I just had a busted run on the daily climb today with dagger spray: silent + watcher, +3 strenght. dagger spray with wrath is so op, especially with furhter strenght scaling.
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u/BigOlJellyfish Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 14 '25
tools of the trade is in no world better than blade dance. tott is c to d tier imo
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u/Hermononucleosis Feb 14 '25
To comment on the actual format, I think you should put the axes in the edges and not the middle. If they're in the middle, it looks like cards below the line have negative quality or cards to the left of the middle have a negative pick rate, which doesn't make sense.
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u/Violet_Artifact Feb 14 '25
How is infinite blades so low? Most of my silent wins on A20 are with a ton of accuracy and infinite blades. Generally hunt for turn 1 energy (cards or relics both works) and it works pretty well, even if I battle the chosen one.
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u/Dabod12900 Eternal One + Heartbreaker Feb 14 '25
To weak, to slow
- Magnus Carlsen
No but srsly I'd rather have any other Shiv Card then this in my Deck. If I pick the slow Demon Form at least I'm sure late game damage is not an issue but Infinite Blades just kets me killed against the late game. It's only a desperation early game Pick against Hexaghost, Slime Boss or Lagavulin
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u/Sir_danks_a-lot Feb 12 '25
Regardless of if people agree or not, I think this format of analysis is a cool new way to do a "tier list" and would love to see it for the other characters too!