Sorcery is so misunderstood, feel free to discuss

[u/ZyreRedditor]

[u/kobold_komrade]

When you multiclass sorcerer and monk you become a dragonball z character.

[u/HierophanticRose → u/kobold_komrade]

Or a Cultivator

[u/TheThoughtmaker]

You're thinking of psions, who train for years in the art of denial until they can substitute their own reality.

Sorcerers are magical beasts that lack the organs for it so they crib off wizard noises. Nice draconis fundamentum you don't have there, it'd be a shame to have all that magical potential and no way to use it without copyright infringement.

[u/ZyreRedditor → u/TheThoughtmaker]

Copyright infringement? Setting aside the fact that verbal components are personalized on my plane, I'm not sure you wanna use that argument since in the first place wizards got the idea of chanting from divine magic users doing prayers for their spells. All spellcasting traditions grow from studying each other, it's called learning.

Besides, silent casting is literally one of the most common sorcerous arts 🤦

[u/TheThoughtmaker → u/ZyreRedditor]

Wizards gotta R&D which sequence of tones and movements and thoughts hit just right with the universe to make a thing happen.

Only a fraction of a tenth of sorcerers can do silent magic, though yes it is one of the most basic tricks they also learned from wizards. They have zero natural abilities beyond being a living spell component pouch.

A few million years later humanoids came into the picture and manufactured the gods out of sheer collective belief, suddenly all you gotta do is praise their name while waving their symbol, and divine “casters” have the audacity to call it spell components.

[u/ZyreRedditor → u/TheThoughtmaker]

So, magic on your plane works is extremely convenient for wizard style spell learning and creation, and basically all magic skills were invented by wizards millions of years before anyone else came into the picture? Yup, sounds like a reality created by wizards for wizards. Nothing wrong with that mind you, but you're going to have limited examples of how other traditions work in realities that *aren't* hamstrung to make things inconvenient for them.

[u/TheThoughtmaker → u/ZyreRedditor]

I travel a few places and it’s the same story in the ones I frequent. Toril, Krynn, Oerth… They all have their creation myths, mind you, but aside from creatures born with magic-processing organs, wizardry has always been the next step in the use of magic.

[u/ZyreRedditor → u/TheThoughtmaker]

How strange. I've been to many planes where cultivating magic energy in the soul is all that's required for magic, no magic organs required. This is the case for sorcerers here too; though the magic needs to be channeled through the body (sidestepping the need for materials or foci) the energy is tied to your fundamental essence. Wizardry here is control of magic through the mind instead of the soul.

[u/TheThoughtmaker → u/ZyreRedditor]

How easy it must for everyone to be innately magical. The wizards I deal with have no innate powers and must use tools to even touch the magic flowing around them. The least convenient method of all, earned only through personal merit.

[u/ZyreRedditor → u/TheThoughtmaker]

It would be foolish of me to discount the efforts of any type of magic user, no matter how their craft is performed. But does a bird not need to learn how to fly despite being gifted with wings? I think it's good to remember that most people of all magic user types have to put in effort to achieve progress and mastery, and that conversely anyone can be gifted with natural talent for a specific magic. That goes for sorcerers too, not all of us are talented.

[u/dingus_chonus → u/ZyreRedditor]

Just wanted to tip my conical hat to you both for such a learned and copacetic discussion

[u/ZyreRedditor → u/dingus_chonus]

Promoting understanding between different magic practitioners is what I'm here for! There's far too much pointless hatred these days in my view so I'd rather bring people together over the one thing we all agree on; magic is cool and interesting!

[u/Another-Ace-Alt-8270 → u/TheThoughtmaker]

Note that only like eleven psions have actually managed this, it was on a rather minor level, and I'm pretty sure light magic was involved in ten of them, whereas the eleventh utilized heavy magic use.

[u/RathianColdblood]

I don’t want to step on your toes, lad, as I’m not a sorcerer, but I don’t feel that comparison really makes sense. Yes, they’re harnessing an inner energy, but it’s inner magic rather than lifeforce. At least most places I’ve visited have that as the case. In my homeplane, both draw on the soul as the source of magic.

[u/ZyreRedditor → u/RathianColdblood]

The energy is not the same, this much is true. But many sorcerous practises are similar to those practised by monks. Meditation to gain control and awareness of the energy, as well as practising the channeling of that energy throughout the body are both key skills in sorcery.

But the main reason for the comparison is the mindset of skilled sorcerers. Just like monks, sorcerers strive to master the self, it just so happens that the self of sorcerers is magic. I see far too often sorcerers derided as inferior wizards who rely on talent instead of study when the truth is wizardry and sorcery are entirely different disciplines that both require practise and training, and are not more directly comparable than wizards and any other types of casters.

[u/RathianColdblood → u/ZyreRedditor]

I’ll agree to a good bit of that. There really similarity between sorcerers and wizards, in my opinion, is that they both tend to draw on arcane magic, rather than other types. There is a reason for the separation of the terms in scholarly circles, though. Casters shouldn’t be judged on one another’s merits. Although I don’t care at all for the path of the warlock, even it takes skill and effort to be anything more than the base level of power.

I would still argue that a sorcerer is more akin to a wizard than a monk, though. Although the idea of “mastering oneself” and some of the techniques are related, that can also be applied to wizardry. Although a lot in these parts don’t seem to see the purpose behind mastering your mind, it really is important to have control when handling any spell more complex than… well, any spell, honestly.

All that said, though, someone who is willing to learn from others will always excel. Using monk techniques to gain better control of your own energies can help a sorcerer to make more of their magic. Learning wizardry can help a sorcerer take the same magic they always draw on, and mold it into a larger variety of forms. Sorcery isn’t something that can just be learned without the innate power, for most planes, but taking the cue from them on mastering and manipulating the energies inherent in magic can help a wizard to waste less power and have better control over their spells. Though I don’t agree that sorcerers are closer to monks than wizard, it’s definitely interesting to compare and contrast, and see what can be taken from each method.

[u/ZyreRedditor → u/RathianColdblood]

Aye, I agree with your points. Perhaps the difference of opinion comes from differing experiences of what kinds of sorcerers we have met and who they tend to associate themselves with.

I do also agree that arcane study benefits sorcerers, I myself teach the art of ritual casting to many sorcerers to supplement the variety of their spells. And as always, understanding the ways of other magic practitioners promotes empathy and cooperation!

[u/AlmostNerd9f → u/RathianColdblood]

So monks are to druids what sorcerers are to wizards?

[u/RathianColdblood → u/AlmostNerd9f]

Sort of? Depends on where you are in the multiverse, I guess. I don’t know many druids who draw on ambient ki. There’s a lot of specifics to these sorts of things, and they change from plane to plane sometimes.

[u/Lydia_Elsewhere]

Warlocks are Goth Clerics.

[u/ASpaceOstrich → u/Lydia_Elsewhere]

Nah. Warlocks are just spicy wizards. Their patron can't unteach them magic

[u/uhgletmepost → u/ASpaceOstrich]

Eh depends

A lot of warlocks don't understand that the patron is often the brita filter

They go solo and go full flint water crisis.

[u/DuntadaMan]

"Mastering your inner energy" sorcerors when I invoke the power of Mammon to turn their own hubris upon them.

[u/LeftCarrot2959]

Idk why people hate sorcerers. If a "sorcerer" starts casting spells like a wizard, what stops them from augmenting one with the other. Also, I don't believe in the bullshit idea that sorcerers are just inbred hybrids. I think sorcerers are people who are attuned to magic regardless of whether they have a "bloodline" or not. Like, if you talk about the dnd style sorcerers, the modt common would be "sage sorcerers" which have arcane bloodline.

[u/ZyreRedditor → u/LeftCarrot2959]

Exactly this! Its a common mistake to think sorcery is genetic, which is not the case on most planes I've been to. If sorcery is inherited it is indeed the mystical connection to magic that is passed down, and a sorcerer's strength does not correlate to the strength of their ancestors but rather their own efforts in cultivating that connection by learning magic.

[u/LeftCarrot2959 → u/ZyreRedditor]

It's kind of like being born with a musical ear near tone deaf people. Wizards overcome this by hard woek and repitition, while sorcerers just play music or sing. Also, there's nothing stopping a sorcerer from learning composition. And a wizard would also probably develop an ear for the music anyways. Ideally you would want both in a mage. I don't really get the idea of dividing them to seperate classes.

[u/saedifotuo]

/UW this is why my dnd groups have made sorcerers wisdom casters.

[u/ZyreRedditor → u/saedifotuo]

/unwiz that's really cool, me or my group's probably wouldn't go that far into changing game mechanics and the post is more of a flavor/narrative thing in the end, but I get your point entirely

/wiz many different mental faculties can be used for controlling magic after all, sometimes you get surprised by what kind of person someone is in contrast to their magic!

[u/NorthGodFan]

It depends on the plane. In Aurbis all creatures are inherently magical, and can call on that internal magic for spells, so wizards use internal magic they developed, and a sorceror is someone who enchants an object to cast spells for them. As a benefit they do not need to use their own magicka for this, and are better suited if they are born at a time that leads to them losing their ability to normally generate their own magic reserves.

[u/ZyreRedditor → u/NorthGodFan]

Thats fascinating, its always interesting to hear how magic practitioners differe from each other across the planes. Those wizards you speak of do sound similar to some sorcerers I've met! And I'm sorry to hear its possible for casters to lose access to their magic reserves, that sounds quite stressful even if you can rely on enchanted objects.

[u/NorthGodFan → u/ZyreRedditor]

No they don't lose access to their natural reserves. They lose access to their ability to naturally replenish it and in exchange if they are hit by magic they can absorb some of the magic that went into the spell into their own bodies. Technically anyone could learn how to do that without having the drawback but people born at that time are able to do it naturally at all times without needing to prepare the spell. They can use the magic naturally occurring in food and other alchemical means to replenish their reserves as well.

[u/ZyreRedditor → u/NorthGodFan]

Interesting. You've mentioned there is a specific time that leads to being born with this nature? Sounds like people in this world are quite affected by the motion of cosmic forces. And I am glad to hear these other ways to replenish your magic exist in such cases.

[u/Nerx]

Morcerers or Sonks?

[u/Krististrasza]

Who let the Sorcerism dweeb in here? That's been a debunked cult.

[u/Another-Ace-Alt-8270]

I feel like that just makes sorcerors the bastard children of wizards and monks, figuratively. Literally, they're the bastard children of the worst human possible and the worst dragon possible.