Twin study suggests rationality and intelligence share the same genetic roots - the study suggests that being irrational, or making illogical choices, might simply be another way of measuring lower intelligence.

[u/mvea]

https://www.psypost.org/twin-study-suggests-rationality-and-intelligence-share-the-same-genetic-roots/

[u/LordFondleJoy]

So instead of saying "He's an idiot" you could say "He's irrational" and it would basically indicate the same issue? Good to know.

[u/Dmeechropher → u/[deleted]]

Academics are a better proxy for discipline, grit, and upbringing than for intelligence. There's a little more overlap between recall and intelligence (smart people often have strong ability to recall important facts). However, if you've ever met a dumb person with encyclopedic sports knowledge, you've encountered the counterexample.

Intelligent people are drawn towards knowledge because knowledge makes decisions more efficient and effective. There are many other reasons to be drawn towards knowledge, and many intelligent people don't feel academic knowledge is vital to their specific success.

[u/itrivers → u/Dmeechropher]

Unfortunately society in general demands proof of intelligence via some form of higher learning certification. A lot of intelligent people struggle with the rigid education systems.

[u/Dmeechropher → u/itrivers]

Yes and no. There are plenty of leadership positions in technical disciplines which require a basic bachelor degree and networking/experience.

Usually, the qualification matters way less than proving yourself as intelligent AND able to get things done. People who are smart, but can't even fake it til they make it in university usually have other issues which make them a bad worker or team member.

I would be the first to advocate for a more equitable education environment, both in terms of support for different neurotypes (I have ADHD, for instance) and financially.

I've spent some time inside and outside of academia, and, frankly, most "misunderstood genius" types were not especially different in intelligence from other smart folks I've met, but often have glaring personality, behavioral, or character flaws which prevent them from being a good worker. I'm of the general belief that it's ok to use an educational document as one proxy for qualification, as long as that document isn't sufficient for a good candidate.

[u/BlipOnNobodysRadar → u/Dmeechropher]

"require a basic bachelor degree and experience"

That's not a counterpoint. That's just saying "no but actually yes". 4 years, lots of money, and working off credentialism just to get your foot in the door to even be *considered* for an impactful position. That's not even accounting for the likelihood you'll be passed over in favor of some incompetent person with more impressive sounding credentials.

Empirical assessments relevant to the position at hand would be infinitely preferable to the current professional system of networking and credentialism. Alas, it seems to have been made semi-illegal.

[u/plopliplopipol → u/Dmeechropher]

with the other side of the example being so many intelligent people academicaly failing from many other issues than their competence of understanding

[u/koolaidismything → u/Dmeechropher]

Yeah memorizing something through sheer will is different than understanding it intuitively. Lots of people that aren’t very bright make it far from that alone.. just being determined.

[u/steviebowillie65 → u/Dmeechropher]

As a highly educated person I will tell you I have met many similarly educated idiots and many brilliant uneducated persons. And I take exception to the notion that recalling facts is intelligence. Recalling facts is memory. Synergizing the recalled facts into a logical conclusion or in a new and insightful way is true intelligence. Memorizing atomic structure (which anyone with a science degree has done) compares in comparison to genius who discovered that these structures exist. My stepfather is a highly educated attorney with literally, a photographic memory however he doesn’t have an intellectual bone in his body. And can’t argue with him because he can quote so many facts (even fake facts).

[u/Dmeechropher → u/steviebowillie65]

I believe what I said is that intelligence and recall are often coincident.

I was specifically trying to indicate that very smart people are generally good at discerning the critical pieces of information which they may need to recall or rederive, and therefore, better at recalling them.

This, then, looks to outside observers as though recall and intelligence are the same thing. A smart person appears to remember everything, because they consistently remember everything they need to solve the problem.

I don't think there's any issue arguing with someone who's dumb but has great recall. People who aren't smart are bad at building testable hypotheses and predictive models. If someone tries to swamp you with facts, the easy answer is just to ask what principle they're using to divide spurious information and anecdote from systematic evidence. People with good recall usually waffle, dodge the question, or gish gallop you after this, so you can just do all the normal things for that sort of "discussion". The real problem with this kind of conversation, in my opinion, is that someone who abuses strong recall of anecdotes in a conversation is not trying to be correct, they're trying to be believed. That's not an intelligence issue so much as a motivational one.

As a highly educated person I will tell you I have met many similarly educated idiots and many brilliant uneducated persons.

Me too. You wouldn't believe some of the people I met during PhD, in both directions. The range was incredible. Some of the smartest people I know have little or no formal education. I totally agree that formal educational criteria are an imperfect proxy for intelligence.

[u/mtcwby → u/[deleted]]

Dad's family were all high achievers academically. My oldest aunt graduated HS early at 16 in the 1940s and went on to get a PhD, etc. All with tested IQs above 145 for what that's worth. Another's son is a current major university president with lots of patents based on his research. Dad was the dumb one with his IQ only in the 130s but he was the one they all called when they were panicking over one stupid thing or another. Academic intelligence doesn't always translate to real life well.

[u/Cursory_Analysis → u/mtcwby]

There are a lot of academic fields that don't heavily emphasize the use logic or rationality either. There are different types of intelligence.

To preface, I've never taken an IQ test but I have a Ph.D in philosophy and then changed careers to get an MD later on in life. Those are two very different types of intelligence that don't have a lot of overlap at first. The further you get, the more you realize that the skills that allow you to apply connections between disciplines and translate them to real world problems are what make someone the most successful.

I had a much stronger background in logic from philosophy than basically all of my med school classmates that were some of the best students in the country. Some of the most intelligent (IQ wise) people that I've ever met, get too bogged down in specificity and can't translate book smarts to applied scenarios. Some of those people can't do any critical reasoning but are literal photographic memory doctors that can quote the textbook at you.

However, when it comes to novel scenarios in the real world where someone has to make a new "applied knowledge" decision based on foundational theoretical "book knowledge", they can't come up with something new on the fly. The best people need to be able to use both and translate one to the other seamlessly.

[u/monadicperception → u/Cursory_Analysis]

I was on the philosophy track until I got off to go get a JD and make money. Interacting with people outside of philosophy, I found that the thing that was surprising was how there can be smart people who are like AI. There are folks who can argue as nauseam on specific points that really don’t matter practically. They do well on tests but that’s all. They really don’t have honed or developed intuitions that allow them to apply knowledge realistically. I wonder if it’s the lack of life experience or empathy? Not sure what it is.

[u/Cursory_Analysis → u/monadicperception]

They do well on tests but that’s all. They really don’t have honed or developed intuitions that allow them to apply knowledge realistically. I wonder if it’s the lack of life experience or empathy? Not sure what it is.

I was always top of the pyramid on standardized tests as well, but you can even break that down to why someone is good at standardized tests. Is it because they studied a ton of material? Is it because they can deduce what the test is trying to get them to choose as an answer? Because the former can perform based on rote memorization while the latter performs based on the ability to work through novel concepts.

For me, it was honing that formal logic and using deductive reasoning. And like you said, it's like a muscle that you have to work out consistently even if you have a natural aptitude for it.

Philosophy forces you to hone that ability through formal logic where you're forced to work through mathematical proofs.

In terms of medicine, I think it's also what you said about lack of real life experience. You can know the entire algorithm for running a code on someone, but some people freeze when they don't have the confidence or experience to deal with someone that's actively dying in their arms.

It's extremely different taking a test on something that gives you every known variable and asking for an answer vs. handing them an actively de-compensating, undifferentiated patient and saying "solve the problem" - with no further information + the added pressure of someones life hanging in the balance.

[u/blahreport → u/Cursory_Analysis]

Sometimes those photographic memory mofos are what you want though. I had a recurring rash on my foot that 2 doctors incorrectly diagnosed and therefore the treatments were ineffective. They probably made a diagnosis based on the most probable causes. A third doctor saw the rash and pulled out book on his shelf and pointed to a picture that looked just like my rash. It was cured and never came back. If you were researching new medicine, I think you might want a logician but a photographic memory is probably a really good trait in a generally practicing doctor.

[u/DTFH_ → u/blahreport]

Sometimes those photographic memory mofos are what you want though.

It sounds strange and would make any headline sound 'woo woo magical', but I think we often conflate 'intelligence' for 'wisdom' as 'wisdom' is the skillful use and application of 'intelligence'.

[u/blahreport → u/DTFH_]

This prompts one of my favorite quotes. Knowledge is knowing that Frankenstein is not the monster. Wisdom is knowing Frankenstein is the monster.

[u/Retrograde_Mayonaise → u/Cursory_Analysis]

I really like this take. Very well articulated.

[u/Square-Singer → u/Cursory_Analysis]

Some of the most intelligent (IQ wise) people that I've ever met, get too bogged down in specificity and can't translate book smarts to applied scenarios.

A lot of that comes down to training though.

If you are trained in book smarts (as is common with a lot of academic education) and especially by someone who thinks that book smarts are always superior (as is common with a lot of academic educators who haven't actually ever worked in the field they teach), you'll end up having a lot of book smarts while missing application.

I am a software dev, and it's really easy to spot who had an interest in programming and stuff before they started their education and who only got into IT via their education.

[u/Publius82 → u/Cursory_Analysis]

I don't have a degree in either, but I love philosophy, and I respect doctors, but it does seem like medicine attracts a lot of people who are basically walking encyclopedia.

Doesn't explain Ben Carson, though.

[u/AdmirableSelection81 → u/mtcwby]

There's high correlation between high IQ's and other things besides just 'academics', like being healthier, living longer, success in work, etc.

[u/LeMooseChocolat → u/AdmirableSelection81]

that's because it's a social class thing.

[u/DariusIV → u/LeMooseChocolat]

Right no one has ever done a study measuring intelligence and outcomes while statistically controlling for a variable like social class/income.

[u/AdmirableSelection81 → u/LeMooseChocolat]

Turns out, when you make good decisions, you're statistically more likely to be of a higher social class!

[u/MetalingusMikeII → u/AdmirableSelection81]

Whilst true, it’s also the case that wealthier people have advantages; better diet, healthcare, education, positive habits, etc. These all influence learning ability, to a significant degree.

[u/StellarJayZ → u/mtcwby]

I'm still tech support for a family that includes an MD and several JDs. The best part is, I'm tech support for my wife, who is an engineer in IT.

"Stellar, how do I mount a disk in Linux?"

Wife, you use 'mount' and that is literally what you could type into google.

[u/radicalelation → u/StellarJayZ]

that is literally what you could type into google.

It's one thing if you're a quicker route to the answer, that's more efficient than google, but if she wouldn't turn to google or similar if you weren't there and either bash her way through or give up... that's a little less logical.

[u/StellarJayZ → u/radicalelation]

When I was new I’d ask questions but people would want me to show I’d researched it first.

I did give her the correct string, and she now knows exactly how to do it.

Doesnt stop the “if I need to do this in python “ questions.

[u/Limemill → u/[deleted]]

How? I thought it actually draws parallels between IQ and rationality, whereas in your case someone who clearly has a high IQ acts irrationally, so it seems to contradict this study. But also, having lived in a well-known university town, I also had plenty of similar experiences: I’ve seen lots of PhDs and postdocs who were absolutely lost in life outside of academia. Making strange choices, etc. I suspect neurodivergence plays a big part in it

[u/snailbully → u/Limemill]

In special education kids are generally made eligible for services on one of two tests: academic impact (do they perform worse in school than their cognitive testing suggests they should) or a pattern of strengths and weaknesses.

Some people on the spectrum have special talents like photographic memories or innate math calculation skills while also experiencing a severely disabling lack of skills in other areas. It's the "absentminded professor" phenomenon. It's why Ben Carson could be one of the most masterful surgeons in the world and also a right-wing wackadoo who believes some in seriously lunatic stuff

[u/Rinas-the-name → u/snailbully]

One of my husband’s friends is an aerospace engineer and one of the most air headed people I’ve ever met. He would wait until nearly everyone left because he could never find his car. He once rode his bike through the same exact puddle 3-4 times - going back to change clothes only to space out and get wet again (as an adult, biking to work). When trying to make a recipe he dumped every ingredient into one pan and then tried to seperate out the things he wasn’t supposed to have added yet.

He’s incredibly intelligent when it comes to mathematics and not much else.

[u/Madmanmangomenace → u/Rinas-the-name]

You can be so lost in thought that doing anything is dangerous. I really tried to avoid any serious thoughts when driving, because it's caused accidents before.

[u/Rinas-the-name → u/Madmanmangomenace]

I’m a deep thinker too, but in more creative ways. My autopilot works great… until it doesn’t. Definitely not while driving, using sharp objects, cooking/using fire. I have ADHD, so wrangling my brain into submission is hard. I really would rather spend all my focus on imagining scenarios that are unlikely, and solving problems in ways that would never actually be tried (because of greed).

If I was a multi billionaire I’d build a city for those who think big, but need adult supervision to do so. No driving, no cooking, focus on solving the world’s problems in new ways. Both experts and amateurs (because people who don’t know better sometime come up with good ideas that a pro never would). Then fund prototypes and trial runs of the best ideas.

I can dream.

[u/Madmanmangomenace → u/Rinas-the-name]

That's a pretty neat idea. I've long had the idea for a fleet of professional drivers bc everyone seems to do it so badly...

[u/ynwestrope → u/Madmanmangomenace]

Unfortunately, a lot of professional drivers are also not very good....

[u/Rinas-the-name → u/Madmanmangomenace]

Maybe we should make a modern version of street cars. Use an AI and a few people to coordinate stops and pickups. If no one drives crashes are unlikely. Optimize traffic patterns for different shifts and school times. Probably stagger when people start and get off work to minimize rush hour congestion. Possibly stagger days off too. Work two days, a day off, work two days, two days off. That way necessary businesses aren’t closed when people have time off. Parents could choose the best school schedule for their children that allows them solid time with them. More employment opportunities, better life work balance.

I always thought there should be high quality cafeteria style meals offered in several places in town (based on size of population). Some people are really good at and enjoy cooking large meals, If communities ate together regularly loneliness would be far less of an issue. I honestly think if people spent more time around those who were different there’d be less racism and bigotry - it’s hard to other people you see regularly.

I can imagine a dozen ways to improve life.

[u/sentence-interruptio → u/Rinas-the-name]

that's a bit surprising because I'd think being good at mathematics would involve spatial intelligence so he should be able to find his car?

[u/Rinas-the-name → u/sentence-interruptio]

That would require thinking about the here and now. He seems to spend most of his time looking like he’s working on some difficult theoretical problem. He definitely works on some very advanced mathematics. Matching socks and where his car is are just not important enough to pay attention to. Very absent minded professor.

[u/Limemill → u/snailbully]

I agree. But also in general, rationality is the ability to look past one’s cognitive biases, which is emotional in nature. Emotions come first and intelligence tries to rationalize them away later. So, in the case of high-IQ individuals what I tend to observe more often than not is much more sophisticated justifications of pre-existing emotional biases, not a lack of said biases. The ability to challenge one’s identity with its emotional reactions, which can be soul-shattering and utterly depressing, is not something I’d attribute to intelligence. It’s a different skill / value altogether, it seems

[u/das_war_ein_Befehl → u/Limemill]

IMO I think you don’t need to be particularly intelligent to have a PhD, just have a work ethic and strong memory. A lot of knowledge is just from memorization and experience, and doesn’t require a particularly sharp intellect.

[u/LeMooseChocolat → u/Limemill]

Well it depends what your goal is, rationality is not a fixed outcome, you can be rational in different ways in the same situation with different goals or info.

[u/DTFH_ → u/Limemill]

I’ve seen lots of PhDs and postdocs who were absolutely lost in life outside of academia.

I think what explains what you're describing is simple opportunity cost playing out in someone's personal development; I'm not the slightest bit surprised someone who went to school for ~15-20 years has poorly developed areas in their life due to spending ~15 hours a week for the last few decades working on academics and not addressing interpersonal matters, maladaptive behaviors or beliefs, etc, etc.

[u/Limemill → u/DTFH_]

Could also be the opposite. Developmental issues and certain personality disorders can push high-IQ people into activities and careers with fewer social interactions starting as early as primary school

[u/DTFH_ → u/Limemill]

Developmental issues and certain personality disorders can push high-IQ people into activities and careers with fewer social interactions starting as early as primary school

See but even the presence of a Developmental or Personality Dx does not explain the behaviors; you can have two people with BDP/Bi-polar/AuDHD and those who have done the internal work to understand how BDP/Bi-polar/AuDHD plays out in their life are distinct from those with BDP/Bi-polar/AuDHD who do not understand nor have observed how their BDP/Bi-polar/AuDHD impacts their life and the ways it expresses itself. Someone with Clinical Anxiety is distinct and different from someone who no longer fit the criteria for Clinical Anxiety, but both started from the same place and experienced the same clinical disorder.