r/science • u/Potential_Being_7226 PhD | Psychology | Neuroscience • 13d ago

Neuroscience Boosting brain’s waste removal system improves memory in old mice | Researchers found that rejuvenating the lymphatic vessels in the brain enhanced recognition memory and restored synaptic function through an interleukin-6 (IL-6) pathway.

https://medicine.washu.edu/news/boosting-brains-waste-removal-system-improves-memory-in-old-mice/
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u/chessmasterjj 13d ago edited 13d ago

How do we clean out our brain of waste? 

Edit: Just says they boosted the lymphatic system of the mice, doesn't say how. If you give "strengthen lymphatic system" a Goog you get physical exercise, hydration and healthy diet. 

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u/Potential_Being_7226 PhD | Psychology | Neuroscience 13d ago

Adequate sleep and exercise are two good ways to improve lymphatic drainage.

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u/livens 13d ago

Exercise, it's always exercise.

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u/the_TAOest 13d ago

Please exercise more. Live long!

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u/Fuzzy_Logic_4_Life 13d ago

And prosper’

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u/Spider_Dude 13d ago

Fascinating.

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u/garlicnaughts 13d ago

Pure energy

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u/Hepofaus 13d ago

Underrated comment right there.

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u/Just-pickone 13d ago

I can hear it in my head.

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u/orthogonius 13d ago

And prosper

And perspire

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u/TheDevilsAvocad0 13d ago

In this economy?!

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u/the_TAOest 13d ago

In 2020 , I withdrew from the rat race, and I learned not spending money is as good as earning more money. I have much more free time and my rewards are ice cream from the store, biking fifty miles, paddling twenty miles in a day, and just gardening or reading.

Yes, I have to be careful, but life is so much better

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u/TheDevilsAvocad0 13d ago

Oh I was just making a joke, the whole 'in this economy?!' thing is a common response.

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u/quantum-magus 13d ago

Noted. Maintain meat suit.

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u/roguealex 13d ago

Exercise and sleep*

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u/___Snoobler___ 13d ago

Why can't they put the effects of exercise and sleep into a pill, patch, or suppository? In all seriousness that'd be pretty great.

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u/Markol0 13d ago

Taking sleeping pills while running around with a butt plug is not my fetish, but you do you.

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u/skoalbrother 13d ago

It's not a fetish, it's brain waste

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u/NoGoodNerfer 13d ago

I’d prefer mine smokable

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u/shellofbiomatter 13d ago

Id just take the sleeping pill, i like to exercise and wouldn't want to lose that, but really don't like sleeping.

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u/___Snoobler___ 13d ago

Could exercise then use the suppository for double the impact. Mutant athletes.

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u/shellofbiomatter 13d ago

We already have that, those are generally referred to as steroids. Though the suppository format would be better than injectables.

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u/roidbro1 13d ago

Don’t threaten me with a good time

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u/[deleted] 13d ago

How does doing exercise not make you tired? When I do a workout I can’t fight the exhaustion when 9pm hits and I’m in bed and sleep like a rock until the sun comes out.

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u/IOnlyLiftSammiches 13d ago edited 13d ago

Could be the difference between those that get a "runner's high" from exercise vs those that don't. If I'm going to have to stay awake for longer than normal (adjusting for swing shifts), I plan for my exercise to take place before the last 6-8 hours of that because it gives me such a mental and physical energy boost.

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u/deanusMachinus 13d ago

Doesn’t everyone get a runner’s high if you run long enough? It just takes 20+ mins of running and most people can’t do that.

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u/TheSpaceCoresDad 13d ago

I run fairly regularly for a lot longer than 20 minutes. I have had runner's high hit me exactly one time, and it was amazing. Never again since then. Always feel like I'm dying by the time I'm done.

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u/ClutchCobra 13d ago

I honestly think some people don't, maybe it's a genetic thing, maybe it's a learned thing, but some are adamant that exercise them discomfort.

And it would really suck for that to be your experience. I couldn't imagine exercising without that rush on endorphins and confidence. It's gotten to the point where my energy levels paradoxically tank on the days I don't exercise. If I'm working a long shift I feel twice as alert throughout the day when I've exercised before

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u/Toomanydamnfandoms 13d ago

Not everyone does. I used to compete in both long distance and track sprints/relays and I never got my promised runners high :(

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u/IOnlyLiftSammiches 13d ago

Enough people claim that they don't that I have to believe them even if it's not my own experience. I've seen a few studies that also confirm that given the same amount of "work", about 1/3rd of people didn't have the same elevated level of a handful of hormones that the rest did.

20 minutes sounds right for me, and I get it with any sufficiently strenuous physical activity. I think a consistently elevated heart rate might be one of the big triggers for that chemical release; I've not really seen any studies that can nail down exactly what causes it.

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u/shellofbiomatter 13d ago edited 13d ago

Eventually i do get physically tired or weak, but not sleepy. Probably something similar to runners high or maybe adrenaline kicking in and it takes some time for it to wear off. After a workout i don't feel tiredness, I'm just weak. It takes some time for tiredness to kick in, but that does feel good.

Though it does improve sleep, i just don't like to waste time on sleeping or any aspect of sleep.

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u/[deleted] 13d ago

Aryou on any sort of PEDs? It was my understanding sleep was an absolute necessity for recovery and progress. If that’s true I don’t know how someone could make progress with trying to avoid sleep.

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u/shellofbiomatter 13d ago edited 13d ago

Not yet, just therapeutic dose of TRT due to other life issues.

But yeah you are completely right, sleep is very important for recovery and gym performance and I don't avoid sleep, i just don't like it or its necessity.

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u/xycor 13d ago

When you feel sluggish and tired that is a warning sign your body needs exercise. I say this as someone who avoided exercise entirely until my mid-30s. The exhaustion is also a feature. It probably helps one sleep which is when the waste is being flushed from the brain by the lymphatic system. Also, other studies have shown sleeping pills can shut down the nightly waves that drive the cleaning.

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u/MyFiteSong 13d ago

I imagine someday nanos will do that. And they'll be subscription-based.

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u/Aphid61 13d ago

Except for that whole suppository part, I'm with you.

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u/DonutGa1axy 13d ago

Money gives you the free time to do exercise and sleep!

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u/itsKevv 10d ago

Why the correction? What person would confuse this?

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u/savvyblackbird 13d ago

Sleep is actually really important for brain health because it’s during the REM cycles that the brain goes over everything and dumps out the waste. I’ve read that dreams could be our brains’ way of categorizing our memories from the previous day and dumping everything we don’t need long term, but that’s one theory.

I’ve struggled with insomnia for years, and it turned out that my heart wasn’t beating properly when I slept so I kept gasping for air. Once I got a sleep test and a CPAP my sleep changed dramatically for the better. I don’t even nap without my CPAP. My memory is also better.

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u/ghanima 13d ago

Which is why it's just part of why it's crucial to not use one's old age as an excuse to laze around. That, and the fact that we're actively fighting against the body's natural impulse towards muscle loss past middle age, which leads to bone density loss.

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u/flyinthesoup 13d ago

I'm in my mid 40s and I started strength training 2 years ago. I cannot state how good I feel! Focusing on cardio in my 30s was good but I hated every second of it. This time around, seeing my muscles grow and feeling badass is waaaaaay more fun, even if I'm all sore the next day.

And I started doing it exactly because of what you said, to combat natural muscle and bone loss as we age. I don't wanna be an old frail person when I reach 60+.

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u/Poopikaki 13d ago

Best I can do is a drink that makes me shake.

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u/ComparisonCrafty2485 13d ago

Or just delete cache.

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u/SirDigbyChknCaesar 13d ago

I'll always remember you, Fry.

MEMORY DELETED

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u/Dmeechropher 13d ago

It's exercise until we find interventions which are more effective than just protecting the natural system as long as possible.

Nature has a billion year lead on metastable nano-tech on us, with hundreds of thousands of years of human "clinical trials".

Eventually, I expect that we'll find medical interventions which improve beyond baseline. We (scientists & engineers) need mastery of nano-scale biological systems to do it. Until then, basically all medical interventions are geared towards finding ways to help the body return to baseline.

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u/phillyhandroll 13d ago

But juuust the right amount.

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u/Flower1999 13d ago

And or “no sugar”, ugh!

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u/Vileath2 13d ago

Also autophagy is a good way for your body to get rid of waste that most people either don’t think of, know of or don’t want to do because it requires fasting for a couple days.

Edit: misspelled word

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u/Soviet_Canukistan 13d ago

This is because the lymphatic system doesn't have its own pump. Moving is the pump.

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u/xlews_ther1nx 12d ago

"Sure it keeps you healthy...BUT AT WHAT COST!"

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u/Legitimate_Plane_613 13d ago

Some say we were born to run

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u/Dedsnotdead 13d ago

I remember seeing a video of a scan of someone in REM. The brain was flushing/washing itself with cerebrospinal fluid whilst the person being scanned was asleep.

First stage was blood draining from the brain and then the fluid washed in and out in waves to clear some of the accumulated “debris?”.

Our bodies are incredible.

https://www.bu.edu/articles/2019/cerebrospinal-fluid-washing-in-brain-during-sleep/

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u/Potential_Being_7226 PhD | Psychology | Neuroscience 13d ago

Wow very cool video! Thanks for sharing!

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u/LostWoodsInTheField 13d ago

First time I saw that I was a bit sad for myself. My sleep is horrible and all the various stuff I've done hasn't done a good job of fixing that issue (including doctors).

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u/roidmonko 13d ago

Check out the YouTube channel 'the sleep coach school.' The guy also has a book if you prefer. It was the only thing that worked for me.

Also cardio fixes a lot of the issues caused by sleep deprivation. It's hard to get in the gym or go for a run when your exhausted but it's important

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u/apcolleen 11d ago

Have you looked into /r/DSPD if that applies?

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u/alex20_202020 12d ago

I was not so patient to wait until blue wave. After how many minutes does it come on this presumably gif image?

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u/Victuz 13d ago

I'm a parent of small children, I've not had a proper night's sleep in 2 years and it's actually amazing/terrifying just how utterly fucked my memory is. I can scarcely remember films/books I've enjoyed and struggle with placing events on a timeline of recent events. I sure hope that this will get better as the kids get older because otherwise I'm proper fucked.

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u/LittleBroController 13d ago

Not sure if that is just sleep, for me at least imI feel like a lot of these „symptoms“ come from never having an extended period of calm where you can sort things out in your head. 

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u/CCWhistle 12d ago

My kid is 15. I never got back on track and my brain is swiss cheese. I get legit scared- forgetting names of popular celebrities, former colleagues - one time even my own mother-in-law. My wife was able to return to normal though, so... probably just a me thing.

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u/Victuz 11d ago

Memory problems and Alzheimer running in the family are legit my biggest fears so forgetting everything has been a very unpleasant part of an otherwise great experience.

But I think there is hope for me, whenever I get a decent night sleep I actually "feel" sharper. Let's just hope it sticks

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u/Solomonsk5 13d ago

Queue rages in lazy

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u/Arinly 13d ago

You should be able to try and tackle the sleep half at least.

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u/Fuglypump 13d ago

If i sleep four times as much it will make up for my lack of exercise, hydration and healthy diet?

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u/watermelonkiwi 13d ago

Queue rage in insomnia

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u/Scavenger53 13d ago

Apparently jumping on a trampoline amplifies the lymphatic draining compared to other exercise, but yea exercise is important as hell

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u/laggyx400 13d ago

Pff, I'm going back to sleep.

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u/whores-doeuvres 13d ago

And possibly sound/light at 40Hz

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u/eliminating_coasts 13d ago

I'd be curious the effects weightlifting has on this too; I know that it puts temporary stress on the lymphatic system throughout the body, thanks to the changes in blood pressure, but I'm not sure about the brain.

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u/SirDigbyChknCaesar 13d ago

I need a way to exercise in my sleep. It's about efficiency.

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u/Geethebluesky 13d ago

What's the mechanism for exercise helping that? I understand sleep, but what does exercise do?

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u/Potential_Being_7226 PhD | Psychology | Neuroscience 13d ago

Pressure from contracting muscles and increased extra cellular fluid exert pressure on lymph vessels and increase flow of lymph fluid.

Exercising in water can exert additional pressure. 

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u/Geethebluesky 13d ago

Thanks, I have some reading to do!

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u/beamenacein 12d ago

I need the system drained to have the mental fortitude to exercise, eat right and get good sleep, but I need to eat right, exercise and get good sleep to have the system drained.

I'm on a negative feedback train and I can't get off

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u/Truestorydreams 13d ago

Essentially oxygen for the brain or good bloodflow/pressure ?

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u/Potential_Being_7226 PhD | Psychology | Neuroscience 13d ago

The lymphatic system is not the same as the circulatory system, although it has some similarities in that the vessels are present throughout the body and lymph fluid circulates. Physical movement promotes movement of lymph in part through pressure on vessels. Although we don’t have a pump mechanism like the heart for the lymphatic system, there is probably a positive effect of increased blood flow on the movement of lymph (although exercise science is not my area of expertise). 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15974632/

There’s some evidence that during sleep, the lymphatic vessels are able to become less circuitous, which makes the resistance lower and allows lymph fluid to flow more easily:

During natural sleep, levels of norepinephrine decline, leading to an expansion of the brain’s extracellular space, which results in decreased resistance to fluid flow. This is reflected by improved cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) infiltration along the perivascular spaces, and therefore increased interstitial solute clearance [2]

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7698404/

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u/Truestorydreams 13d ago

I have to break the articles down and give more reads to grasp because its seems like this study opens up to alzihmers.

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u/Objective_Law5013 13d ago

You would be correct, doctors in Shanghai, China are already trialing an experimental procedure that connects your lymphatic system to venous drainage and it seems to help people with Alzheimer's.

https://gpsych.bmj.com/content/37/3/e101641

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u/Meowgaryen 13d ago

So .. Eat healthy, sleep for 8 hours and exercise? Thanks, I guess

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u/zrooda 13d ago

Imagine we could squeeze it like an old blackhead

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u/Potential_Being_7226 PhD | Psychology | Neuroscience 13d ago

They boosted the lymphatic system by using an experimental treatment that causes the brain to overexpress vascular endothelial growth factor. The increase in this factor then causes the expansion and growth of lymphatic vessels. This treatment is not possible in people. 

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u/TheOnceAndFutureTurk 13d ago

Great day for geriatric mice, though.

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u/jogr 13d ago

Top story on r/seniorMiceNews probably

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u/marionsunshine 13d ago

They get all the dopest healthcare innovations first!

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u/flammablelemon 13d ago

Increasing VEGF raises the risk of developing tumors anyway. Growth factors in moderation (like in the amounts your body normally produces them) are beneficial, but a large excess of them produced by drugs (like steroids) can lead to health issues over time.

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u/illegalcheese 13d ago

Interesting. I've only ever learned about VEGF in conjunction with angiogenesis, but I guess it makes sense it'd affect lymph vessels too.

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u/Potential_Being_7226 PhD | Psychology | Neuroscience 13d ago

Yeah I was curious about this too. Looks like they targeted VEGF-C, so there may be different types of VEGF that are more or less involved in vascular endothelium vs. lymph endothelium. 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38442272/

Edit: also this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vascular_endothelial_growth_factor

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u/Emhyr_var_Emreis_ 13d ago

VEGF expression is nothing new. So the novelty is being able to tie it to the neurolymphatic system?

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u/BPhiloSkinner 13d ago

Do humans have a cerebral lymphatic system? I read some years ago (2012?) about the mapping of a cerebral lymphatic system in Mice, but that no such system had been mapped in humans.

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u/Potential_Being_7226 PhD | Psychology | Neuroscience 13d ago

Yep. Published in 2015:

https://journals.lww.com/neurotodayonline/fulltext/2015/07020/new_study_suggests_brain_is_connected_to_the.1.aspx

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u/BPhiloSkinner 13d ago

It all started with an experiment Dr. Louveau was conducting on mouse meninges. After developing a method to mount them on a single slide and examine them as a whole, he noticed vessel-like patterns in the distribution of immune cells on those slides. He tested them for classic markers of lymphatic endothelial cells (LEC) — and there they were. Preliminary experiments suggested that a similar structure exists in humans, long unnoticed because of how closely it tracks the dural sinuses (sagittal and transverse).

TIL, and thank you.

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u/Potential_Being_7226 PhD | Psychology | Neuroscience 13d ago

You’re welcome! The story of the discovery is fascinating. It’s amazing what you can find when you look at something from a different perspective. :)

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u/dari7051 13d ago

I got to see Jeffrey Iliff of UW speak on glymphatic clearance and aquaporin-4 during a colloquium talk and have thought about it often since. The entire functional system is so, so cool. Super rich area for all sorts of lines of future work.

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u/GentlemenHODL 12d ago

This treatment is not possible in people. 

Because we have not developed the mechanism or for some other reason?

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u/Potential_Being_7226 PhD | Psychology | Neuroscience 12d ago

Safety and feasibility 

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u/GentlemenHODL 12d ago

Thank you for the quick answer. I understand the safety can be resolved with advancements but could you explain the lack of feasibility?

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u/Potential_Being_7226 PhD | Psychology | Neuroscience 12d ago edited 12d ago

There are a few issues that limit practical application in humans. This study uses a viral vector that changes gene expression in the brain (it’s basically gene therapy) and there are some developments in this area in humans: 

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5548848/

For humans, it isn’t clear whether using this type of gene therapy would treat age-related neurological diseases. Taking Alzheimer’s disease as an example, it’s not clear whether this intervention would reverse the disease process once it has already started. As more research about AD emerges, it seems like the neural hallmarks of the illness (like plaques and tangles) are consequences rather than causes of the illness. AD seems to arise from a combination of genetic risks as well as environmental and lifestyle factors that contribute to neuroinflammatory signaling over the lifespan. For AD, interventions can slow the disease, but it is unknown whether improved lymphatic drainage would do anything to stop the disease processes once they are in motion. We do know that lifestyle factors that promote lymphatic drainage (exercise and sleep) seem to lower the risk of AD. 

Also, this type of gene therapy would require delivery directly into the central nervous system, so that makes it challenging as a potential treatment option. 

Lots of researchers are actively studying aspects of this, so it’s not a lost cause; it’s just not there yet. 

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u/GentlemenHODL 12d ago

I greatly appreciate the time you took to write that.

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u/Potential_Being_7226 PhD | Psychology | Neuroscience 12d ago

You’re welcome, I enjoy talking about this stuff, so thank you for your interest. :) 

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u/Admirable-Action-153 11d ago

isn't this related to that novel dementia cure where they induced drainage.

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u/jonathot12 13d ago

it happens while we sleep mostly

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u/[deleted] 13d ago

[deleted]

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u/chessmasterjj 13d ago

I've heard fasting stimulates stem cells and helps get rid of dead tissues. I wonder if it helps with the lymphatic system too.

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u/47Kittens 13d ago

I believe the lymphatic system is what’s used to get rid of the dead cells

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u/chessmasterjj 13d ago

Dang. Maybe not then. 

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u/47Kittens 13d ago

It’s one and the same. It can’t “help” the lymphatic system because it is the lymphatic system

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u/illegalcheese 13d ago

Lymph circulates way faster when exercising, so there's that. Like 3x increase. IDK if that translates to brain lymph, because other lymph vessels are much closer to working muscles. But lymph in general circulates in conjunction with skeletal muscles and all lymph vessels are systemically connected.

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u/chessmasterjj 13d ago

I bet fasting helps

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u/1AggressiveSalmon 13d ago

Anecdotally, I can say that having a lymphatic massage that focused on drainage from the head and neck helped reduce headaches. However, I have had both a craniotomy and radiation focused in my head, so I am more likely to have a less functional lymphatic system. Probably time to spring for another session. There are many do it yourself videos for basic drainage techniques.

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u/tipsystatistic 13d ago

Probably not clinically validated, but lymphatic drainage is a big part of Chinese qi-gong. Kind of a blind spot in the west, but It’s viewed as equally important as cardio fitness.

They’ve got a lot of different movements and massages aimed at getting the lymph system moving.

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u/1AggressiveSalmon 13d ago

I am on the hunt for a Traditional Chinese Massage therapist, but they don't really advertise themselves.

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u/offengineer 13d ago

There was just a piece yesterday on hyperthermia increasing the production of IL-6, which is probably tied to how exercise increases it.

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u/Intelligent_Sand2408 13d ago

This is interesting but what about various drugs of abuse and really any substance that effects the body’s set temperature point, why then do we see negative effects in such classes and not the opposite is it this effect is weak or just mitigated?

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u/Omegamoomoo 13d ago

Outweighed by the negatives I reckon

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u/GentlemenHODL 13d ago

It said they rejuvenated the vessels. As to how they did that I don't know I haven't read the paper. Did you grab the full paper to check?

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u/Potential_Being_7226 PhD | Psychology | Neuroscience 13d ago

Yes, my answer to your question here.

And the paper is open access and I have linked it here.

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u/GentlemenHODL 13d ago

Thank you muchly appreciated

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u/DocFail 13d ago

Avoid metabolic syndrome

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u/kelcamer 13d ago

Trampoline is one good way to strengthen lymphatic system!

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u/eagerrangerdanger 13d ago

  1. Optimize Sleep – 7-9 hours, side sleeping, reduce blue light.

  2. Stay Hydrated – Drink water, eat hydrating foods.

  3. Exercise Regularly – Walking, rebounding, yoga, resistance training.

  4. Reduce Inflammation – Anti-inflammatory diet, limit processed foods, try intermittent fasting.

  5. Use Cold & Heat Therapy – Cold showers, cryotherapy, saunas, hot baths.

  6. Practice Deep Breathing & Massage – Diaphragmatic breathing, lymphatic self-massage.

  7. Support Brain Detox with Supplements – Magnesium, melatonin, curcumin, resveratrol.

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u/bogglingsnog 13d ago

Actual fasting works wonders too. 3-7 days. Make sure to compensate for the missed micronutrients.

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u/Penguings 13d ago

Not sure specifically related to this article- but there are lymph nodes in your neck and armpits. Massaging these areas regularly apparently improves circulation- but I’m sure there is more written out there than this; also not sure if applies to brain lymphatic system.

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u/ostrichfart 13d ago

Instructions unclear. I'm massaging my armpits now to see if I can understand further.

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u/deathreaver3356 13d ago

Damn it! I'm massaging my armpits and I can't remember why!

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u/enyxi 13d ago

It's really interesting, and we only discovered the glymphatic system relatively recently. It's similar to those lymph nodes, but the glymphatic system works on sleep rather than movement for circulation.

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u/TsuDhoNimh2 13d ago

Here is a link to the study for you. https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(25)00210-700210-7)

It goes into detail how they tested what impeded meningeal lymphatic drainage did.

And what they did: injected VEGF-C into the mouse brains.

Intracisternal injection of AAV1-CMV-mVEGF-C in aged mice has been shown to enhance the coverage and function of meningeal lymphatics, accompanied by restoration of cognitive deficits.900210-7#bib9),3500210-7#bib35) We delivered AAV1-CMV-mVEGF-C (AAV1-CMV-EGFP was used as a control) and assessed synaptic and behavioral phenotypes 4 weeks later (Figure 500210-7#fig5)C).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vascular_endothelial_growth_factor_C

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u/Penguin-Pete 13d ago

What, your skull didn't come with a garbage disposal built in?

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u/Potential_Being_7226 PhD | Psychology | Neuroscience 13d ago

Yes it does actually. Glial cells are the disposals: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aba3239

The lymphatic vessels are the drain pipes. 

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u/Xenodad 13d ago

Dammit… I was hoping for a different science miracle! Guess its time to be more active to get my brain juices flowing! Thanks!

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u/catscanmeow 13d ago

berberine. look it up

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u/BussJoy 13d ago

Massage your head bro. Like a lymphedema massage.

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u/AppropriateTouching 13d ago

I don't want to do any of those.

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u/neuromonkey 13d ago

Instead of Google, try Google Scholar.

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u/unfairrobot 13d ago

If this can be achieved by getting only five hours sleep per night, I'm set!

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u/Altruistic_Top7088 13d ago

Lookup the impact of 40Hz light and sound therapies researched by the Picower Lab at MIT. The initial research has a small sample, but it's out there to review.
Hope that's helpful.

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u/mgcross 13d ago

Sleeping on your right side or on a slight incline.

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u/Trex-died-4-our-sins 13d ago

Adequate sleep, eating a balanced non processed diet, and exercise. The three simple lifestyle habits that people have control of, yet ignore bc of convenience of modern life. Edit for spelling

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u/followthedarkrabbit 13d ago

Ugh why is it always exercise and diet, why can't it be "pizza, chocolate, and wine" for once.

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u/madhousechild 13d ago

a treatment that stimulates vessel growth

Sorry! That little detail was left out.

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u/jkurratt 13d ago

It gets cleaned during 9 hours of sleep, I think.
Maybe I am mixing things with the spinal cord though.